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Thread: Lucia vs Zophar

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    Default Lucia vs Zophar

    There are so many ways to interpret this scene. Right now I'm trying to follow Lucia's thoughts... they never made much sense to me, just seemed cliche. But now I'm starting to read some delta Te in here.



    That whole speech seems to be Lucia grappling at once with teamwork, which she doesn't believe in, and absolute authoritative control, in which she does believe. But why are these mutually exclusive? The only thing I can read into it is that that a situation without authority (a god or supreme ruler) could be interpreted as being a negative form of Te, in which she doesn't want to place faith.

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    Oh come on... help me out here. What's going on in this scene and in Lucia's head?

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Hold on, haven't dropped any acid yet.
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    Out of pure coincidence, I found a mint condition compete of Lunar 2 Complete and am currently making my way through it. Excellent game.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Boss: [laugh] Now that I have seized the power of Althena, my return is complete! I am the absolute ruler of the universe! You're all doomed...

    Voice #1: Althena's power or not, you cannot win this Zophar! We'll stop you and save Lucia using a power you can't fathom!

    [Fade out]
    ----

    [Battle scene]

    Lucia: Hiro...In the face of defeat, why do you rise up? What gives you the power?
    It must be the... power, your belief in each other. I..I should have known. I should have believed in you. Ronfar, your passion; Jean, your dreams for a better world; Lemina, your kind heart; Leo, your piercing insight; Ruby, your quick wit; And Hiro, your bravery and love. I've known this all along. And yet, now it becomes clear: the real power of this world lies in the human spirit. I believe Hiro, I finally believe...

    Zophar: your belief in each other is grievously misguided. The time has come to wipe your miserable souls from existence.

    All: chants & encouragement

    Lucia: Hiro it's true, humanity's power is the key.

    Zophar: This is not possible, it cannot be!

    Lucia: Zophar, you are blind to the truth. This world is full of light and hope. You have no place here, your power can never extinguish the light within the hearts and minds of every single human. The power to love, trust, and hope, will always conquer over evil. I finally believe that.

    Zophar: You're speaking in circles sweet Lucia, you know in your heart that I'll never be defeated.

    Lucia: [names], the time has come, believe in yourself. And take back this world for humanity. I believe in you. Never give up.

    Voice #2: Zophar, it's time to die!

    Zophar: Yes, and you will be the first to go.
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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Well Lucia is definitely Delta. Her character alone looks like a highly characterized version of Delta NF. She went from being the object looking down on the subject, to identifying with the subject in rising up against the object.

    Since we're talking here, must be the other. She identified with absolute authority at first, the idea of inner power(introverts) seemed foolish and unbelievable. But that was her blind spot(and Zophar's), being extraverted. As the inner power began to win, Lucia realized that absolute authority(Evil) was unnecessary and actually destined to be overthrown by a complementary force(Good).
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    I'm certain Lucia is an INFJ. She is much colder and more aloof than an ENFP would be. (I agree on Delta NF)

    Where there is no authority, self-willed teamwork is required. Volunteerism. It seems to me like Lucia's struggle was one of seeing a negative state (no authority) as a positive.

    What is authority, really? I see it as vertical coordination, the ability to restrain and release individual potentials as a direct factor of participation in the team. As such, it's an interaction between delta Te and delta Ne.

    Here's the scene where Lucia learns that the goddess she serves is no longer reigning.



    She freaks out, and it is the hardening of her line against zero authority that enable Zophar to emerge as only remaining alternative. Lucia's heart is the base of Zophar's influence.

    I suspect Zophar is IEI. I think he uses emotional manipulation to scheme people into his column, playing off people's insecurities and their prejudices (as he does with Lucia). Plus, consider that Hiiro, the LSE, understands what he cannot. I'm thinking this is a surefire sign of Te PoLR. What do you think?
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 04-08-2011 at 10:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Out of pure coincidence, I found a mint condition compete of Lunar 2 Complete and am currently making my way through it. Excellent game.
    You know how I feel about your political beliefs... but I absolutely respect your mastery of Model A. Do share your thoughts on the game with us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Hold on, haven't dropped any acid yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    You know how I feel about your political beliefs... but I absolutely respect your mastery of Model A. Do share your thoughts on the game with us.
    I think Hiro is SEE. He is reckless and irrational, driven by loyalty toward his friends. His entire motive for questing is out of loyalty to Lucia. He has a strong grasp of Fe, seen in his interactions with Ruby, but he clearly doesn't take this kind of behavior seriously. He has a Goku-like sense of honor when it comes to standing his ground, even if he thinks his opponent is too strong. No backing down. A kind of cognitive dissonance in which he knows he'll lose yet has faith he'll win.

    Lucia appears to be EII. She views the application of force as an unpleasant last resort when it comes to accomplishing her goals. When she feels like her mission isn't being given absolute priority, she doesn't hesitate to leave the party and venture on her own, even though she eventually comes to her senses and realizes that she needs her friends if she is to succeed in defeat Zophar. To me, this sounds like her Ti role is making her do the "logical" thing. If her Fi tells her to stay, then her Ti will naturally tell her to go. And her quest is so enormous that she can't justify ignoring her role unless she has her dual-seeking function fulfilled. She subconsciously wants Te, and without it she must follow her role. Only after learning that she can't do it alone does she see that she needs to stay with her friends and have faith in herself.

    Ruby is definitely ILI. She has no Fe whatsoever. She hates it when people falsely call her a flying cat, as it agitates her Te. She's is in love with and highly possessive of Hiro in that introverted dual way where it's like she's in awe of him but won't admit it, and she clearly gobbles down his Se. There's a clear aspect ILI/SEE duality there, where she warns him of what could go wrong and then is totally stunned when he succeeds anyway.

    Ronfar seems Delta ST, probably SLI. He makes absurd Fe-ignoring comments all the time, usually direct at women. He clearly values Fi over Fe in the same way Han Solo does, pretending to be an indifferent ass but showing his hidden virtues when the time finally comes. His gambling + alcoholism is a stereotypically SLE/LSE way of self-medication, which he resorts to in order to escape a deep sense of sadness and loneliness.

    Lemina is an EIE disguised as an LIE. She seems to be cantankerously obsessed with money and business logic at the expense of social harmony, but this is merely a persona that covers her insecurities about whether she is making the correct Te decisions in her quest to rebuild Vane. This faux Te-centrism is overdone, making it clear that it's compensatory. Her Beta values are exposed through her fixation with rank within the mage guild, and in the way she prides her important role in getting the city up and running again, restoring its former city-in-the-sky majesty. She also does the EIE bullshit where she becomes physically threatening when challenged.

    Jean is probably ESI. Her quest to defeat the slaver guy is more about saving future victims than in getting revenge, though she does want to exact retribution. Her statements and general decision-making process are almost universally based on an incoherent (from a Ti perspective) sentimental conviction about what needs to be done and why. It's Ni-oriented Fi. She also doesn't humor Fe or general Beta rowdiness.

    Leo is LSE. Briefly considered LSI, be he is far too unrestrained. His Se is out of control. He is overweeningly self-righteous and unreasonable. He doesn't listen to reason whatsoever. He over-applies force in a psychopathically unapologetic way. He has that overwhelmingly outrageous LSE tendency to only listen to what he has come to regard as the authority; everything else is an incompetent waste his consideration. Only succumbs to reason when it has been made utterly incontrovertible via some external, concrete circumstance that he is wrong (whereas LSIs can generally be convinced far more easily via some sound reasoning and a moderate amount of evidence).

    Ghaleon is weird. In Lunar SSSC, he is obviously EIE. In Eternal Blue, he seems to have switched to SLE. I'm not that far into it, but from what I've seen, he now has strong Se, absolutely no subtlety, that underlying grim demeanor that accompanies SLEs (whereas EIEs seem insane underneath and LSIs seem tranquil). He also has the Fi PoLR feature where he acts like an ass at times that feel inappropriate to the situation. Like you see some good quality manifest in him and you think he's about to become a good guy, but he bizarrely continues on acting like a complete dick. It's basically a total lack of self-awareness.

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    Ghaleon is LSE. He doesn't really care about being strong, only about personal ability and authority. This should have been evident in the first game, might want to take another look.

    Hiiro may be SEE. Any other opinions? I thought he seemed rather LSE myself, given he took teamwork pretty much for granted. He seemed mostly incomprehending of Lucia throughout the entire game. Every SEE protagonist I've witnessed has been most concerned about fighting for justice by various means.

    Um type "deception" is um... let's not go there. We're quickly running into "thinking inside the box"... trying to use classical socionics to describe an entire personality is neither useful, nor accurate. Traits that socionics does not account for should be cut out of the analysis completely. I think LIE is the only reasonable type for her, given her grandiose visions of restoring Vane and all.

    I always thought of Ruby as ESE. Duals aren't just "helpful" to one another -- they tend to be very critical of each other, but in a nonthreatening manner.

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    I'm quite persuaded that Jean and Joy have remarkably similar personalities. They have the same dual-type, at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    I'm quite persuaded that Jean and Joy have remarkably similar personalities.
    LMAO they do!

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    Here's an interesting question: did Lucia's hang up over the lack of evil delta Te (absolute authority) lock her into a respect for all the other evil sides of the elements as well?

    Something else I'm seeing: absolute authority is position without accountability. Thus, it is antisocial in nature. Does this mean that extremism is grounded on demand for the presence of antisocial conditions?

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