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Thread: Comparisons between the Astrology, Zodiac, Socionics, MBTI, Alchemy, Numerology and Taoism

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    Default Comparisons between the Astrology, Zodiac, Socionics, MBTI, Alchemy, Numerology and Taoism

    Have there ever been any studies about the connection between astrology and Jung - Myers-Briggs types?

    I do see a lot in common between INTJ and capricorn descriptions. When I add the numerology path 8, I get a very thorough description with very little contradictions.

    Do certain Jung types tend to be from certain astrological signs?

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    To be honest I do not know. I however am an aries. I do not think any correlation is there as I have met many people who are aries and have radically different types. INTJ, ESFP, ENFP, and an ENTJ. Those are just the ones I can think of right off the bat but sample size is small.

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    Theres no correlation that I know of, and I dont think Jung intended there to be one.

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    Default Re: Jung vs. astrology

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Have there ever been any studies about the connection between astrology and Jung - Myers-Briggs types?

    I do see a lot in common between INTJ and capricorn descriptions. When I add the numerology path 8, I get a very thorough description with very little contradictions.

    Do certain Jung types tend to be from certain astrological signs?
    heh, strange COINCIDENCE because I am capricorn too.
    INTJ/ENTP

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    I think there might be out of chance, but some signs would have more than one type in them, so it wouldn't be all that accurate.

    I'm an Aries, but ISTP fits Sagittarius a lot better.
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

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    heh, strange COINCIDENCE because I am capricorn too.
    Right now almost 50 people have seen this topic, so I think it is a coincidence. There are so many INTJ-s here and 1 out of 12 is a capricorn... :wink:

    I quess I am one of those rare occations where the astrological sign fits me. I have read other descriptions a little, but they don't describe me at all. I was hoping that there is a correlation, even a small one. Sad

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    My new favorite quote about astrology:

    "Person 1: Astrology great...

    Person 2: Astrology goes back thousands of years.

    Persona 1: Yeah and thousands of years ago people were crapping in their hats."

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    Actually I get this feeling like I have seen something related to astrology in socionics though can not remember clearly, for example ENTps was related to capricorn or at least I think something as this.

    Socionists also did this amazing thing and related theory of chacras with their theory. I read by translator something like that just not enough cause of the programms quality.

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    http://forum.socionix.com

    I don't see what's so important about the possibility of extraterrestrial life. It's just more people to declare war on.

    EVERYONE PLZ CONTINUE TO UPLOAD INFINITE AMOUNT OF PICS OF "CUTE" CATS AND PUPPIES. YOU KNOW WE GIVE A SHIT!!

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    We should make a new law: Anyone who believes in astrology should get their T taken off from them, beaten, dragged around the public place, hanged at the crossroads for the crows to pick on and shot by AK-47's.

    The members will then proceed to replace it with a better suited "F".
    ENTj - intuitive subtype - 8w9, sp/sx

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    haha, agree.
    http://forum.socionix.com

    I don't see what's so important about the possibility of extraterrestrial life. It's just more people to declare war on.

    EVERYONE PLZ CONTINUE TO UPLOAD INFINITE AMOUNT OF PICS OF "CUTE" CATS AND PUPPIES. YOU KNOW WE GIVE A SHIT!!

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    I've seen (and probably will continue to see) sillier things defended.

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    [u]To /u] Sorry! I can't give you that adress, but it was in that socionics.org page ,so If you know Russian you are able to read this article. If not, we all won't be finding out those mysterious secrets of ancient scientists <{Muahahahaha)
    Semiotical process

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eidos
    We should make a new law: Anyone who believes in astrology should get their T taken off from them, beaten, dragged around the public place, hanged at the crossroads for the crows to pick on and shot by AK-47's.

    The members will then proceed to replace it with a better suited "F".
    That statement is utterly idiotic, and closeminded. I doubt you know anything about astrology to begin with, nor does anyone on this site. That shit you read in newspapers is not real astrology in the slightest sense. On top of that, I guess your claim about being "perfectly polite to everyone" was not true, after all.

    I say that anyone who rejects something because it does not fit in with the rationalistic/scientific dogmas of our day and age without first investigating it should have their T taken from them, as Jung said its a characteristic of feeling types to beleive that a thought is totally true when they have one.

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    Cheerio, I don't like astrology, but you are right on that caurse real astrology is very comlex and deep and has even Jungs theories included.

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    Im not saying that anyone has to like astrology or beleive in it, but at least have some tolerance for other people's beleifs and have the decency to know what your talking about when you bash something. Generally it becames a lot harder to bash something when you actually understand it, even if you dont beleive in it.

    Jung was deeply influenced by the esotoric traditions, and I know his personality psychology is influenced by certain images and symbols from these traditions, but I do not know of a correlation between socionics(which really has nothing to do with Jung's mysticysm as far as Im aware) and the sun sign(which is really just one aspect of one's birth chart anyways).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerio
    That statement is utterly idiotic, and closeminded. I doubt you know anything about astrology to begin with, nor does anyone on this site. That shit you read in newspapers is not real astrology in the slightest sense. On top of that, I guess your claim about being "perfectly polite to everyone" was not true, after all.

    I say that anyone who rejects something because it does not fit in with the rationalistic/scientific dogmas of our day and age without first investigating it should have their T taken from them, as Jung said its a characteristic of feeling types to beleive that a thought is totally true when they have one.
    You're so emotional in that post. You're just proving my point.

    And please, stay polite yourself (sorry, I was) - you're extremely rude.
    ENTj - intuitive subtype - 8w9, sp/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerio
    Im not saying that anyone has to like astrology or beleive in it, but at least have some tolerance for other people's beleifs and have the decency to know what your talking about when you bash something. Generally it becames a lot harder to bash something when you actually understand it, even if you dont beleive in it.
    I'm sorry but there have been numerous experiments conducted on astrology to assess it's validity and none have shown anything. I challenge you to point me to any proper scientific article that shows evidence for astrology. Because there isn't. Astrology is based on wishful thinking and beliefs. Of course I'm not talking about the columns in newspapers. I'm talking about the whole charts with definition of moons, houses, etc. There have been experiments conducted to assess the validity of these.

    One of them consisted in asking expert american astrologists to draw out the astrological chart of several people. They were then given a) personality profiles of each person, b) a written autobiography, c) a list of adjectives given by relatives, d) a videotape with a one hour interview of each person. The goal of the astrologists was to match the birthdates (and charts) to each of the people. The results were conclusive. Only a couple matches were correct, which is what you would explain by pure luck. This is only one out of the many experiments. You can try finding the rest by browsing on "google scholar".

    Sorry to give you a reality check - Obvisouly it hurted you and you lashed out. There's an explanation to people believing in astrology, and it's not in it's validity. The explanation lies in psychology: confirmation bias, self-fulfilling prophecy, etc.

    Also, buddy, you have to learn to tolerate people not agreeing with you. If you don't agree, argue back rationally. Your behavior is not going to help getting your point across.
    ENTj - intuitive subtype - 8w9, sp/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eidos
    You're so emotional in that post. You're just proving my point.

    And please, stay polite yourself (sorry, I was) - you're extremely rude.
    This is the one thing I take issue with when dealing with Thinking types. When will they learn that emotional expression or lack thereof as revealed in an arguement neither proves or disproves a point.

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    Eidos I shall think about what you said concerning the experiments.


    But I feel you have to learn one thing: I wasnt lashing out because you gave me a "reality check", I was lashing out because I felt attacked. Why did I feel attacked? Because of the way you said what you did. You have to realize that everything is in how you say things, and not in what you say. My reproach against thinking types is that they dont seem to get this very easily when it comes to communicating with others. They always react like "well your just emotional, cuz you cant handle the truth" when in fact they could very well have reworded "the truth" in a much more easy to swallow formula. Ive observed this on my own. Ive learned to tell the truth in a way that doesnt cause people to defensive, and thus that makes it alot easier because people thus do not waste any energy on getting defensive and can focus more on analyzing what youre telling them.

    This is not just a reproach to thinking types, its a reproach to our whole society, which I feel does not teach or value effective communication skills.

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    Default Socionics and the Zodiac

    I have been doing an in depth study on how socionics relates to the Zodiac. Now, I am not specifically talking about the zodiac and astrology, but more like in the terms of alchemy. There seems to be some rather startling comparisons. Anybody else study into this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    Star signs and the zodiac are a heap of bullshit.
    Not understanding something and then only seeing people use a system in a degraded way is not a reason to call a whole system bullshit. It is like calling socionics bullshit, because not everyone agrees on typing.

    Although I would agree that modern astrology has turned 'what I am talking about' into a bunch of degraded typologies that may not have much scientific basis to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew View Post
    Anybody else study into this?
    Hitta and Steve.


    Apparently my sexual animal is the deer.

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    Last year I have made a natal chart for myself. I was especially interested how it will describe my personality and temperament. Well, in some parts degree of true was great, but in other parts it was the bullshit of the century.

    But I believe that searching for correlations between socionics system and astrology system could be a fruitful task. For example: the Venus astrology concept obviously correlates with the concept of feeling in socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hostage_Child View Post
    I haven't studied it nor had the slightest inclination to do so, however, I find the idea interesting to see what your findings and ideas are.
    Well, apparently my findings could end world hunger, free slaves, end domination of world resources by a few individuals, make the world a more loving and happier place. The same knowledge also was use by the few powerful people who founded countries such as Babylon, Rome, Egypt, China, etc.

    But that is not the point right now.

    Basically what I have been uncovering is an ancient science of mystic psychology that is based on 'cosmic laws', that are applied much like modern day physics would be applied. Basically this has to do with various levels of vibrations [7 of them] and the law of cause and effect. You can counter various vibrations and get a different result.

    What this means is that between every interaction and every word spoken between two people, there is a process going on. Person A invokes an element and person B can counter it, weaken it, strengthen it, or neutralize that element by invoking one of the other 11 elements. This is that everyone does this.

    I'll give an example:

    Person A: [guy] Do you have the time ... ?
    Person B: [girl] Sure, 5:30pm ...
    Person A: [guy] Woah ... holy smokes ...
    Person B: [girl] What ... ?
    Person A: [guy] Did they change the wall paper in this place?
    Person B: [girl] Yeah, I think they did ...
    Person A: [guy]You know I have to go in a little while, but that just reminded me of a story ... care to listen [guy sits down next to girl]
    Person B: [girl] sure
    Person A: [guy] My parents use to have this lime green wallpaper for like forever, and it was giving me and my sister seizures looking at the thing. So, I was like ... man, I should be protecting my sister from this HORRIBLE wallpaper. So, I volunteered to repaint the whole house. It took some work, but it actually looked rather good afterwards.
    Person B: [girl] How old is your sister ... ?
    Person A: [guy] You know you are cute, but so damned evil ...
    Person B: [girl] What ... ?I have a boyfriend
    Person A: [guy] Really, does he live on the rich or poor side of town?
    Person B: [girl] ummm, I think rich ... [she does not really have a boyfriend]
    Person A: [guy] Hey, why don't you come play "guitar hero" with me tonight and see if we can beat each others "score" ...
    Person B: [girl] *chuckles* Sure ... but I get the controls!
    Person A: [guy] Over my sexy body!
    Person B: [girl] Ohhh, I'm cold now ...
    Person A: [guy] Come sit by me, I am warm!
    Person B:[girl] *comes and sits next to guy*

    In the above example, guy begins with a low vibration air element [aquarius] as a means to introduce himself to the girl. He uses mid and high vibration fire element to put himself into a superior position where the girl can feel attracted the mid vibration being aries and the high vibration being leo. He then hits the girl with a high vibration air element [gemini] in order to gain ahead of her and she tries to counter very poorly with a fire element [aries], but he counters aries by throwing an air element slightly higher in viration and in opposition to aries, that being Libra ... the girl did not really have a boyfriend, which what the libra air vibration was invoked to counter. The guy then baits the girl off to his place using a mid range earth element [taurus] and she starts to hit on him, and he returns the favor.

    Essentially in a nutshell this is how everything works, and that is close to being a real-life example BTW ...

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    I noticed startling comparisons too mcnew. my exroomie was into it and i got way into it because of how much it was comparing. good stuff....good stuff....
    SEE Unknown Subtype
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew View Post
    I have been doing an in depth study on how socionics relates to the Zodiac. Now, I am not specifically talking about the zodiac and astrology, but more like in the terms of alchemy. There seems to be some rather startling comparisons. Anybody else study into this?
    Yeah, let us hear those startling comparisons. I'm sure that after that, the mainstream psychological community will finally come to their senses and will start studying Socionics.

    My apologies for the sarcasm.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Well, let's hear about it.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Yeah, let us hear those startling comparisons. I'm sure that after that, the mainstream psychological community will finally come to their senses and will start studying Socionics.

    My apologies for the sarcasm.
    Well, considering that the mainstream psychological community would rather piddle around with several complex theories that make little sense with a zillion different theories that say the same exact thing, as opposed to using the one base theory that rules all other theories, that would never happen. This is even more ironic in that modern psychology had its founding in the Zodiac, as well as Carl Jung's theories being based on the Zodiac. In fact, there would probably be no socionics even if it were not for the Zodiac with the Aristotelian influence and all.

    So, the assumption [therefore your sarcasm] that the mainstream psychological community would not accept anything associated with the Zodiac is valid, but not in a very helpful way. Rather, it shows a great amount of ignorance on the part of modern psychology and might say a few things about you as well. I'll let whatever statements made speak for themselves.

    Plus, why does it matter that socionics becomes some "text book" study at a university, so long as it helps people. Why in the world would it help people if it just can only be found in a textbook? I'd rather see it evolve into a system that helps people get wealthy and healthy or something positive. That is what I want to accomplish with socionics anyhow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew View Post
    This is even more ironic in that modern psychology had its founding in the Zodiac
    Yes, but the essence of science is that it corrects itself.This is how proto-science (that of Freud and Jung) turns into real science. Hanginging on to proto-science in the face of newer and better understandings and explanation, will result in pseudo-science. 500 years ago people believe the Earth was flat, but fortunately, most of us have moved beyond that. Perhaps that in the future, new methods of looking at reality will develop and we will no longer consider the Earth a globe...

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew View Post
    Plus, why does it matter that socionics becomes some "text book" study at a university, so long as it helps people.
    Ask many psychologists, and they say any kind of alteration in your behavior might work, e.g. going for a mountain climbing trip. To me, the question here is not of Socionics helps people, but if it is a model that explains and predicts phenomena. The zodiac predicts nothing and everything (because it's Forer effect), Socionics, although not perfect, actually does quite a good job. This makes perfect sense, as (and I've stated this before) Socionics is not fundamentally in conflict with mainstream personality psychology. We use different wording to describe the same phenomena. ETA: this makes Socionics quite a decent proto-science, where to Zodiac hasn't changed in 2000 years, which should be enough evidence that it is pseudo-science.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Yes, but the essence of science is that it corrects itself.This is how proto-science (that of Freud and Jung) turns into real science. Hanginging on to proto-science in the face of newer and better understandings and explanation, will result in pseudo-science. 500 years ago people believe the Earth was flat, but fortunately, most of us have moved beyond that. Perhaps that in the future, new methods of looking at reality will develop and we will no longer consider the Earth a globe...
    Yes, humanity may not look at the earth like it is a circle in the near future, but not before humanity stops treating the earth like it is a triangle. Even more ironically, that is what the Zodiac is about; man perceiving the world through the means of a triangle, but in a circular way.
    So, until humanity begins to start acting like the earth is a circle, humanity may never learn to know any different. It is that little thing called "evolution" ...



    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Ask many psychologists, and they say any kind of alteration in your behavior might work, e.g. going for a mountain climbing trip. To me, the question here is not of Socionics helps people, but if it is a model that explains and predicts phenomena. The zodiac predicts nothing and everything (because it's Forer effect)
    You are right and wrong here about the Zodiac, because there are more than just the applications of the Zodiac than just astrology. Astrology takes the Zodiac, makes a few generalizations using the various laws from the various signs in the zodiac and assumes that simply because someone was born during a certain season and sign, that person takes characteristics of that season. Now, there may or may not be truth to this. Either way that is not at all what I am talking about by bringing up the zodiac in comparison to socionics, rather I am speaking of the zodiac in terms of alchemy and that is somewhat different [it is more practical] than how it is used in astrology, and therefore is not under the Forer effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Socionics, although not perfect, actually does quite a good job. This makes perfect sense, as (and I've stated this before) Socionics is not fundamentally in conflict with mainstream personality psychology. We use different wording to describe the same phenomena. ETA: this makes Socionics quite a decent proto-science, where to Zodiac hasn't changed in 2000 years.
    Other than what Astrology has tried to do with the Zodiac, adding new planets and such you are correct is has not changed, but why fix something that is not broke? There have been whole countries and powers and governments and businesses and wars built purely on the workings of the Zodiac with lasting efficiency. It has absolutely no need to change whatsoever, as it works the same as it always has and has always helped people succeed who know its true secrets. That is the difference between the changing and the unchanging ... it just is and it is not all at the same time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew View Post
    Yes, humanity may not look at the earth like it is a circle in the near future, but not before humanity stops treating the earth like it is a triangle. Even more ironically, that is what the Zodiac is about; man perceiving the world through the means of a triangle, but in a circular way.
    So, until humanity begins to start acting like the earth is a circle, humanity may never learn to know any different. It is that little thing called "evolution" ...





    You are right and wrong here about the Zodiac, because there are more than just the applications of the Zodiac than just astrology. Astrology takes the Zodiac, makes a few generalizations using the various laws from the various signs in the zodiac and assumes that simply because someone was born during a certain season and sign, that person takes characteristics of that season. Now, there may or may not be truth to this. Either way that is not at all what I am talking about by bringing up the zodiac in comparison to socionics, rather I am speaking of the zodiac in terms of alchemy and that is somewhat different [it is more practical] than how it is used in astrology, and therefore is not under the Forer effect.



    Other than what Astrology has tried to do with the Zodiac, adding new planets and such you are correct is has not changed, but why fix something that is not broke? There have been whole countries and powers and governments and businesses and wars built purely on the workings of the Zodiac with lasting efficiency. It has absolutely no need to change whatsoever, as it works the same as it always has and has always helped people succeed who know its true secrets. That is the difference between the changing and the unchanging ... it just is and it is not all at the same time.
    Your logic is very funny. Well, you have had your say, I've had mine, and I hope this gives people who are in doubt something to choose from.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew View Post
    I have been doing an in depth study on how socionics relates to the Zodiac. Now, I am not specifically talking about the zodiac and astrology, but more like in the terms of alchemy. There seems to be some rather startling comparisons. Anybody else study into this?
    I didn't know there was alchemy involved.

    But what are your findings?

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    Your logic is very funny. Well, you have had your say, I've had mine, and I hope this gives people who are in doubt something to choose from.
    The hierarchy of needs by Abraham Maslow is a triangle ... why is it a triangle and why is it a hierarchy? Where did Abraham Maslow get the idea to put survival at the bottom and actualization at the top, when the zodiac is structured the same exact way ... ? Could it be that humanity has built all existing perceptions upon a triangle, dominance and subjugation and has failed to see the true picture? Gee ... I wonder ... especially since the Zodiac depicts the world as a triangle within a circle ... it is like it blinds people from seeing the circle within the circle.

    Alright, something to think about ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    I didn't know there was alchemy involved.

    But what are your findings?
    My findings are that it is possible to change peoples vibrations and perceptions by learning to invoke the laws of various elements. It is like how some people are say one type in socionics. Well, comparatively it is like saying someone can learn to be any type that he or she chooses and then be able to change someone else's type. Or it may not be that simple.

    An example of my findings is found on the first page where I give a scenerio of a guy picking up a girl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew View Post
    An example of my findings is found on the first page where I give a scenerio of a guy picking up a girl.
    I do that too, but I attribute it to my testosterone level (which can be measured), not to extraterrestrial vibrations (which can not be measured).
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I do that too, but I attribute it to my testosterone level (which can be measured), not to extraterrestrial vibrations (which can not be measured).
    You're right ... I'd have better luck getting a martian to relate, which are at a height that can not be measured.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew View Post
    Well, apparently my findings could end world hunger, free slaves, end domination of world resources by a few individuals, make the world a more loving and happier place. The same knowledge also was use by the few powerful people who founded countries such as Babylon, Rome, Egypt, China, etc.

    Basically what I have been uncovering is an ancient science of mystic psychology that is based on 'cosmic laws', that are applied much like modern day physics would be applied. Basically this has to do with various levels of vibrations [7 of them] and the law of cause and effect. You can counter various vibrations and get a different result.
    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew View Post
    Plus, why does it matter that socionics becomes some "text book" study at a university, so long as it helps people. Why in the world would it help people if it just can only be found in a textbook? I'd rather see it evolve into a system that helps people get wealthy and healthy or something positive. That is what I want to accomplish with socionics anyhow.
    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew View Post
    You are right and wrong here about the Zodiac, because there are more than just the applications of the Zodiac than just astrology. Astrology takes the Zodiac, makes a few generalizations using the various laws from the various signs in the zodiac and assumes that simply because someone was born during a certain season and sign, that person takes characteristics of that season. Now, there may or may not be truth to this. Either way that is not at all what I am talking about by bringing up the zodiac in comparison to socionics, rather I am speaking of the zodiac in terms of alchemy and that is somewhat different [it is more practical] than how it is used in astrology, and therefore is not under the Forer effect.
    Other than what Astrology has tried to do with the Zodiac, adding new planets and such you are correct is has not changed, but why fix something that is not broke? There have been whole countries and powers and governments and businesses and wars built purely on the workings of the Zodiac with lasting efficiency. It has absolutely no need to change whatsoever, as it works the same as it always has and has always helped people succeed who know its true secrets. That is the difference between the changing and the unchanging ... it just is and it is not all at the same time.
    I know you have reason to believe that the theory you are proposing has validity. However, I will point out that the desire of acquiring "power and success," occultism, or the use of magic/alchemy, ultimately find its tangibility in Satanism. Just reading this thread gives me some really bad vibes...
    Last edited by Lobo; 10-25-2008 at 08:19 PM. Reason: minor grammatical changes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    Just reading this thread gives me some really bad vibes...
    There is no need for that, because what we are seeing here, in essence, is not a lust for power of self-justification through occult thinking (which might indeed lead to sadistic tendencies), but rather an obvious example of schizotypal thinking. Based on the videos I've seen of McNew, I think he's quite a harmless person. A solitary shell. I mean this with a sense of compassion, not disdain.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    I know you have reason to believe that the theory you are proposing has validity. However, I will point out that the desire of acquiring "power and success," occultism, or the use of magic/alchemy, ultimately find its tangibility in Satanism. Just reading this thread gives me some really bad vibes...
    Then I would have you know that there has been no organization that has been free of its grasp, even the church [in the case of those in power knowingly] have followed the things that it has condemned, claiming the right was the sole possession of the church or in the case of knowledge that would free people from the churches grasp of power, has intentionally hidden the knowledge. If what you are claiming is true, then all organizations, business structures, and any group that has a hierarchy had a satanic beginning. Would it be fair and right to condemn all beginnings? Are there any exceptions?

    If you feel uncomfortable, then there are yet some challenges you must face. There is something about yourself that you have not accepted. You may even fear these things. Someday you may come to terms with that. Everyone does at some stage or another.

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