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Thread: Pina Bausch

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    Default Pina Bausch

    A Wim Wenders film about the choreographer Pina Bausch is showing in Paris right now:



    Curious about Bausch's type.











    Here, she's talking about dancers growing older, and STILL dancing, which I :


    Some of her everyday body language and comportment:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Fi-ESI probably. This image is a dead ringer for it:

    Cool. The only things I felt sure of were introverted, and prob v strongly Se-valuing.

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    ?

    My impression was ILE. Lots of talk of learning, sudden realization, finding things that are common to all people. Mostly values, a pretty Einsteinian philosophy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    ?

    My impression was ILE. Lots of talk of learning, sudden realization, finding things that are common to all people. Mostly values, a pretty Einsteinian philosophy.
    Hm. Watching her interviewed, I didn't see Fe-valuing, and she seemed very introverted. There are some 20th-century modern-dance choreographers I've typed as Alphas (both famous and not-so-famous-but-known-to-me-personally), and they have a very nontheatrical style compared to this.

    If you want to build a case based on her words, you can go in an entirely different direction, as there are written interviews with her on the web where she talks about being a loner, observing people, and focusing mainly on human relationship in her dance works. So I'm wary of that kind of typing, i.e., "She talked about this subject, so she's this type."

    Anyhoo ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Hm. Watching her interviewed, I didn't see Fe-valuing, and she seemed very introverted. There are some 20th-century modern-dance choreographers I've typed as Alphas (both famous and not-so-famous-but-known-to-me-personally), and they have a very nontheatrical style compared to this.

    If you want to build a case based on her words, you can go in an entirely different direction, as there are written interviews with her on the web where she talks about being a loner, observing people, and focusing mainly on human relationship in her dance works. So I'm wary of that kind of typing, i.e., "She talked about this subject, so she's this type."

    Anyhoo ...
    I'm just going based off the information I was given; obviously I would take any additional information into account.

    But I don't expect an ESI to give such an extended discussion on what is essentially . This is one of the most solid typing methods.

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    Here is more of my thinking process about her.

    The choreography looks extremely Se-valuing to me. I say this based on having spent a bit of time thinking about 20c choreographers and getting a sense of their aesthetic. Compare her to the so-called Father of Modern Dance, Merce Cunningham. His work is sooooo Alpha NT to me:



    Notice the technical emphasis and the fact that the bodies are, as in the title of one of his most important works, "points in space." They bodies do not collide, not with each other, not with the environment. I have learned some Cunningham technique, and it's incredibly difficult, geometric, spinally focused, tight, restrained, internal. I could not, as a dancer, get any Se thrill from executing that kind of movement. At all times you must be internally gauging the alignment of your body at a minute level--to me, Si, and just about impossible to do.

    Pina Bausch, by contrast, directs bodies to move in a fluid, dynamic way. You see falling, collision. The movement vocabulary makes use of gravity rather than, as in Cunningham, holding back from gravity. I look at it and see it's a vocab I would adapt to easily enough. It's in the limbs, it emphasizes the arcs the limbs form in space. It's rather free. For me, that's connected to Se. Cf. the work of Jerome Robbins; even though this is a ballet piece, there's a lot of sweeping flow and release in the limbs. It's not restrained in the same way we expect ballet to be:



    Also, West Side Story outake:



    Robbins is Se-valuing, imo. So is Baush.

    Baush's work is often focused on human relationships, as I said. She was always showing dancers in relationship roles, connected to each other. So I went into viewing her pix and her video interviews knowing that F is somehow important for her, because her output was very emotionally soaked. But then she showed no Fe. Strong Fi seems more likely.

    Her posture looks J. She seems incredibly introverted. I briefly considered INFj just based on her looking IJ. But ... that type seems waaay wrong.
    Last edited by golden; 04-06-2011 at 09:25 AM.

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    I don't know anything about choreography but I don't see why an ILE would have choreography that is especially tight and constrained, though maybe an LII would. The looseness could be extroversion or strong(er) . Is there anything from an interview that suggests or aside from her posture? What I see is a perpetual sense of uncertainty and preoccupation with the unknown. Examples:

    0:05
    It was just amazing to be part of the ceremony yesterday.
    0:12
    I was so excited -
    0:15
    I never thought I'd experience such a thing.
    0:22
    Eventually, by evening I could relax and be happy.
    0:29
    Actually, "happy" is not quite the right word.
    0:35
    This honor involves something else:
    0:38
    a kind of responsibility. ? ?
    0:41
    It makes me aware of why I chose this work in the first place.
    0:48
    And now I'm one of those who
    0:52
    represent the philosophy of the Kyoto Prize
    0:58
    I'm at a loss to adequately express how I feel.
    1:05
    I'm not quite sure about it myself.
    1:12
    But what I've always known is that discipline plays a big role.
    1:22
    It's not so simple to transform a feeling, an idea, into dance.
    1:29
    Sometimes a small event happens
    1:34
    and makes me open my eyes.
    1:39
    Suddenly I said I see a tiny key,
    1:44
    but don't know what it is.
    1:47
    It's as if a light has been turned on
    1:51
    - suddenly there's something.
    1:55
    Something that I know is present,
    1:58
    that I must respond to. , extroversion
    2:03
    Then I start asking myself questions.
    2:06
    And suddenly it grows all by itself. /
    2:10
    It's like an adventure but with no map. !!
    2:14
    I can't just say, "Treat it like this or that." irrationality
    2:17
    Sometimes I have an idea, but when I try to develop it,
    2:22
    it's gone.
    2:24
    But somehow or other, it works.
    2:29
    All I know is that I need lots of confidence.
    2:31
    And I mustn't get impatient. , extroversion
    2:34
    That's just my gut feeling.
    2:37
    At the beginning, I need to listen to my feelings.
    2:41
    As I said, suddenly a small light is lit,
    2:44
    the energy comes, and one thing leads to another.
    2:48
    And after that,
    2:50
    I do it again and again
    2:53
    to maintain this approach in my daily work.
    2:55
    This is a difficult and sometimes terrifying process.
    3:02
    Nowadays anyone who is considering
    3:07
    such a profession must ask themselves
    3:12
    in their heart of hearts what their intentions really are.
    3:18
    You can learn as much as you want.
    3:24
    You can learn anything conceivable.
    3:31
    But it's important to have a foundation.
    3:35
    And, as in my case, I have to be able to forget everything
    3:40
    and ask, "What's important in this moment"?
    3:44
    I must individually confront myself in this manner.
    3:49
    Nobody else can advise me.
    3:52
    You must listen to yourself and avoid saying,
    3:57
    "What are others thinking or what do they want me to do?"
    4:05
    I believe that if you are totally sincere and have the ability,
    4:11
    maybe you can find the things we all have in common -
    4:17
    not the things we lock away privately.
    4:21
    I'm not talking about what's private,
    4:25
    but things we all share. extroversion!
    4:29
    I believe that if it's the right thing,
    4:34
    you can only find it in yourself.
    4:39
    I don't know exactly.
    4:42
    I don't know it at all.
    4:44
    Maybe one day. But I don't know it.


    Maybe some other type is possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I don't know anything about choreography but I don't see why an ILE would have choreography that is especially tight and constrained, though maybe an LII would. The looseness could be extroversion or strong(er) . Is there anything from an interview that suggests or aside from her posture? What I see is a perpetual sense of uncertainty and preoccupation with the unknown. Examples:
    I consider Cunningham to be LII, in fact. I don't believe his goal was tightness or restraint, of course. It's just that his work feels that way to many dancers' bodies, owing to its precision and its internalism.

    The rest of what you wrote there ... I admit that I get uncomfortable when I see someone's speech analyzed for its Socionics content phrase by phrase. It seems like a rejection of the big picture, and it's never clear whether one has zeroed in on the "right" assignment of the IEs.

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    Mm, I'm gonna repost just because this thread is bothering me. I'm sorry to sound negative, hotel, but for me, trying to squeeze little bits of Pina Bausch's communication into the IEs that fit a certain type rises to the level of seeming disrespectful.

    The big picture of those particular statements: She was awarded the Kyoto prize, which is a huge honor. She was interviewed on that topic. She spoke in her nonnative language.

    And her point of view seems to be this: She understands what a huge honor it is to have been given this award. She knows that most dancers and choreographers never achieve any real renown. To choose to be a dancer is to commit to very hard work and discipline, to earn little money, and to remain obscure. All of your output is ephemeral (even if videoed, it will not have the same impact in that format).

    In other interviews, written and recorded, I note that she often referred to her dancers and to the community in which she lives. That's not a given among choreographers, who sometimes are quite egotistical and treat their dancers as rather unimportant, and who seal themselves off from their cities or towns. She spoke of creating the dances FOR her dancers. She obviously really loved them a lot. She even staged a version of one of her pieces using local, aged amateurs from her town in Germany.

    Now, how is all that about information elements? I could easily argue from them that she valued Ni, in terms of making meaning of life in a rather philosophical way. I could further argue that she valued Fi by pointing out the quiet connectedness she felt to the people in her world.

    But anyway, I don't really care to say that this all boils down to some specific IEs. Pina Bausch was a really special person, and taking about 30 giant steps backward to get a sense of who she was in her totality feels a lot better than taking 30 steps closer and squinting at miniature chunks of her life to construct a whole from disparate, disembodied parts.

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    maybe IEI from the videos...?
    EII INFj
    Forum status: retired

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    The way she carries herself seems very IJ, and she looks to me. I could easily see ISFj for her.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Mm, I'm gonna repost just because this thread is bothering me. I'm sorry to sound negative, hotel, but for me, trying to squeeze little bits of Pina Bausch's communication into the IEs that fit a certain type rises to the level of seeming disrespectful.

    The big picture of those particular statements: She was awarded the Kyoto prize, which is a huge honor. She was interviewed on that topic. She spoke in her nonnative language.

    And her point of view seems to be this: She understands what a huge honor it is to have been given this award. She knows that most dancers and choreographers never achieve any real renown. To choose to be a dancer is to commit to very hard work and discipline, to earn little money, and to remain obscure. All of your output is ephemeral (even if videoed, it will not have the same impact in that format).

    In other interviews, written and recorded, I note that she often referred to her dancers and to the community in which she lives. That's not a given among choreographers, who sometimes are quite egotistical and treat their dancers as rather unimportant, and who seal themselves off from their cities or towns. She spoke of creating the dances FOR her dancers. She obviously really loved them a lot. She even staged a version of one of her pieces using local, aged amateurs from her town in Germany.

    Now, how is all that about information elements? I could easily argue from them that she valued Ni, in terms of making meaning of life in a rather philosophical way. I could further argue that she valued Fi by pointing out the quiet connectedness she felt to the people in her world.

    But anyway, I don't really care to say that this all boils down to some specific IEs. Pina Bausch was a really special person, and taking about 30 giant steps backward to get a sense of who she was in her totality feels a lot better than taking 30 steps closer and squinting at miniature chunks of her life to construct a whole from disparate, disembodied parts.


    I dissected the transcript only to prove the point that the majority of what she was talking about was . What do sudden realizations and idea generation have to do with the Kyoto Prize? I don't even remember her mentioning the prize. The topic seemed open-ended enough that her sociotype would show through. I'll grant that she was using ethics a lot, so maybe Delta NF is possible. But there is absolutely zero evidence for based on what you posted. Where are these other interviews? I'd like to see them. I'm sure you're more familiar with her than I am, which leaves me at a disadvantage.

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    Well, I saw this movie last night, and after all this kerfuffle, I didn't even like it, lol.

    As for the interview here, she was asked questions about winning the Kyoto prize. Thats's pretty specific.

    As for the Ne thing, and her type ... if you want to read other interviews, you can google "Nina Bausch interview" as I did. I'm all for open discussion and debate, but I'm sorry to say that the method you used to dissect the interview statements above will never convince me of anything. I wouldn't assign IEs to those word chunks, first of all--it's very Maritsaonics to me. If I HAD to assign IEs, I'd probably assign mostly different ones.

    After having viewed the movie, I'd still say she's IJ, definitely Fi-valuing. But Delta seems possible to me now: I think she's either INFj or ISFj. Alpha seems less possible than ever. Beta, nah. (I could say why I'm asserting these things if anyone wants.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Is she like, playing herself in the movie, or is this an actor's portrayal of her?
    The movie is mainly a lot of clips from her dances, some performed onstage, some performed in other locations, like at a quarry, in the street, the park, etc. There's almost no information about her, and she herself appears in it very little.

    Go for it!
    The big picture

    What we did get, instead of Pina Bausch herself, was statements by her dancers. Now, the big picture is that she obviously lived in a country where she was able to get quite a bit of subsidizing for her dance troupe. Her dancers apparently earned actual salaries, unlike people who dance in this style in the U.S., and some of them were with her for decades. Also, she died unexpectedly at some point during this film project, and the dancers were interviewed after her death.

    Bausch's work style and relationship to dancers

    Pina Bausch worked, worked, worked all the time very steadily. She was enigmatic. She did not communicate openly with the dancers. Many of them said that they had no idea what she wanted from them or what they were supposed to be doing. One dancer who'd been with the troupe for at least 20 years said that the ONLY performance feedback Pina ever gave her was "You're just going to have to get more crazy." That was it. Most of the dancers had some kind of tale like this: almost no communication.

    The way that she got them to do what she wanted was evidently through some kind of unspoken affectional connection that grew over time, some kind of unseen bond. The dancers seem to have viewed her as some kind of deity. My boyfriend said it was like they were in a cult or something, lol. It creeped him out.

    Inwardly emotional movement

    Regarding the movement, again, it seems highly Fi-valuing to me. The dancers are almost autistic in terms of feeling a bunch of stuff that from this audience member's perspective is unclear. WHAT are they feeling, and WHY? The audience's understanding of the emotional landscape is not too important. The work is full of symbolism that on its face is not very clear.

    Bearing in mind that I am pretty well trained in the interpretation of symbols, yeah, I could sit down and write a 30-page paper on what the choreography could mean, but it would be strictly an intellectual exercise, because the work does not resonate with me in the moment. I saw a live performance by this dance company a while back, and it was the same thing then. What is the import of these symbols? They are meaningful to the choreographer and the dancers, but not to me. And I'm not the only one, for over the years people have regularly walked out of Pina Bausch performances, alienated.

    The dance vocabulary

    The kinds of movement being done look no better in terms of line and pattern than some of the improvised stuff I've see when dancing with others a coupla hours just for the heck of it.

    Worse still, it's boring. Why? There is no contrast or change within the pieces. They're very one-note and repetitious. For example, the dancer/s will have contracted abdomens and do jerky movements at a certain pace ... and keep doing it and doing it, contracted, at that same pace, with no shift in the sense of intensity, timing, attitude. When I was young and dancing a lot, I got heavily critiqued for dancing that way and had to learn how to grow as a performer by being less repetitious, less rigidly locked into one particular mood--to let go of one "activity" and move on to another.

    And that's not just about artistic choice. The human brain, perceptually, gets frustrated at a certain point by seeing or hearing something repeated. A certain amount of repetition is wanted, but go too far and you cause boredom. So creating something FOR an audience means finding a balance between pattern/repetition and novelty, so their attention can be held.

    Furthermore, the movement is very predictable to me. This annoys me. Dancer 1 makes this movement, so I automatically foresee that Dancer 2 will make that movement, and that they will do it again, only faster, etc. That's just not good art, sorry.

    Any relationship to Socionics?

    Anyway, the regularity of Pina Bausch as a person, steady work, day after day, and the locked-in quality of the dances, to me, it = J.

    The internalized emotionality that doesn't reach outward toward the audience = Fi. (I'm not saying Fi people cannot reach outward, but I do think that Fe people will do this automatically. IMO, Fi draws in, Fe pushes out.)

    The quiet, reverent long-term bonds between the choreographer and her dancers = Fi.

    The bizarre lack of communication from Pina toward her dancers, I dunno what that is, but she was clearly an extremely inward-looking person in her own world, introverted as hell.

    I'm not sure why I'm willing to consider Delta at this point: just a feeling I get. She reminds me of some Deltas I've known. And my response to her work etc. is troubled enough for me to consider that she could be from my opposing quadra.

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    Basically you're asking me to use an typing method, but I am lazy and hence usually resort to using . Maybe if I feel more motivated later I'll come up with something more big picturey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Basically you're asking me to use an typing method, but I am lazy and hence usually resort to using . Maybe if I feel more motivated later I'll come up with something more big picturey.
    Yeah, I'm kinda even though I'm not. (Hey, Socionics: you're broken.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Yeah, I'm kinda even though I'm not. (Hey, Socionics: you're broken.)
    No you are broken.
    Last edited by golden; 04-07-2011 at 01:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Creep Of a beast View Post
    No you are broken.
    Thanks!

    Wait, that hurt my feelings!

    What?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Thanks!

    Wait, that hurt my feelings!

    What?
    This doesnt seem fi ignoring.

    Ne is quite dominant in you.

    Quasi-identicals are easy to be mixed with eachother.
    one in one, what are you ?

    Truth may hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Creep Of a beast View Post
    This doesnt seem fi ignoring.

    Ne is quite dominant in you.

    Quasi-identicals are easy to be mixed with eachother.
    one in one, what are you ?

    Truth may hurt.
    Lol. I'm fucking with you. J. O. K. E., man.

    But if my wee lil' feeling really do get hurt, I'll let you know, ok?

    Btw, I did consider ENFp as a type for myself at one point, just b/c it seemed like one of a handful of possibilities, and later because someone on here thought I might be one. Doesn't really seem to fit, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Lol. I'm fucking with you. J. O. K. E., man.

    But if my wee lil' feeling really do get hurt, I'll let you know, ok?

    Thats better

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    maybe IEI from the videos...?
    I was also wondering about IEI. I'm wondering about ESI though. I think she seems / valuing at the very least (I really don't see ).

    She reminds me of Audrey Hepburn a lot. It would be really interesting to see interviews of her when she was younger.

    I just don't know how to explain it, but I see a clear focus and I'm wondering if it's the leading focus.

    [There’s dancers over 20 but others over 50 like so-and-so.] I think these [the dancers around 50 and 60] are very special persons. It’s not just because somebody is 50 or older or 60. It’s-it’s-it’s first of all, they are still--they are incredible dancers, and uh, and they’re still growing. And their [some word I didn’t catch… fantasia? fantasy?] is endless, kind of. It’s not finished at all. You know there are so many things in them I feel which they even didn’t start, didn’t touch even, you know. And um, and I-I-I-I-I I like it very much, the-the mixture of-of-of everything. Anyway, I love to bring things together and to, to do something with it. And the young ones always learn from the older ones, and the old ones always learn again from the young ones, a new energy and everything, so it’s a wonderful mixture of [mixing motion].
    I don’t know it’s like the whole thing is about expressing her passion about this, cultivating a sort of meaningful atmosphere and being the one to sort of oversee or aid others in drawing these special meaningful things out of themselves through dance (that it is wonderful to watch them express these things). I don’t know, I can see an Fe-ness to all of this.

    Also I felt her speaking style was slow and searching, and I don't know how to explain why I see it as ish although since she's not a native English speaker, that might be making it appear overly this way.

    ---

    I think my issue with IEI is that she seems to have a very disciplined, focused, and perhaps constant work-ethic at least by what Golden said but I also get that feeling about her in general (and I see it as rather contrary to , so another leaning against /). And well she generally seems rational to me in temperament.

    ---

    She was enigmatic. She did not communicate openly with the dancers. Many of them said that they had no idea what she wanted from them or what they were supposed to be doing. One dancer who'd been with the troupe for at least 20 years said that the ONLY performance feedback Pina ever gave her was "You're just going to have to get more crazy." That was it. Most of the dancers had some kind of tale like this: almost no communication.

    The way that she got them to do what she wanted was evidently through some kind of unspoken affectional connection that grew over time, some kind of unseen bond. The dancers seem to have viewed her as some kind of deity. My boyfriend said it was like they were in a cult or something, lol. It creeped him out.
    This also seems like it might fit with IEI to me, as a role that IEI can adopt in life. And also not making anything she wants or expects clear kind of seems like weak Se to me (a combination of perhaps not knowing or being able to verbalize it, and simply not having that sort of directing sort of presence). I see her as perhaps in her own world floating above the actual one in her own land of meaning that perhaps no one can really quite get at understanding of. And if she then tries to express it symbolically in dance, this just furthers my picture.
    Last edited by inumbra; 04-08-2011 at 11:54 PM.

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