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Thread: I want E and I to mean only one thing

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    Default I want E and I to mean only one thing.

    2:00 AM 4/4/11

    I want: to change the letters of socionics so that each letter represents one, and only one, thing, and you can refer to the letter without referring to its position. In socionics, the letters have two attributes: which letter, and which position.

    EIE
    IEE
    EII
    IEI

    The I and the E have both 'position' and 'letter' attributes. They also have another attribute, 'introverted/extraverted.' However, that doesn't matter if you (I'm having a hard time expressing this, bear with me) merely want to quickly say someone is an 'S' type or an 'L' type. Those letters are unique. You can quickly get the general idea what I mean if I say someone is an S or an L (sensing or logical). You don't have to worry about whether I mean introverted or extraverted, and you don't need to know. But if I try to quickly say 'He is an E type,' or 'He is an I type,' there are several different things I could mean. I have to qualify this and explain that I mean extraverted/introverted (E/I is in the last position), or else that I mean ethical/intuitive (E/I is in the first or second position).

    Sometimes, you just want to quickly say that somebody has that letter somewhere in their type, but you don't need to worry about what position it's in. When I'm typing somebody, and I start to get the feeling that they are logical instead of ethical, I might want to quickly say 'He's not an E.' It's a shorthand abbreviation if I don't want to write out the whole word 'ethical.' I shouldn't have to write out the whole word every time, and I shouldn't have to go hunting for a symbol (and then, if I did get the symbol, I would have to decide whether it was the empty symbol, or the filled in symbol - there is no 'I'm not sure whether it's introverted or extraverted' image available, like, for instance, a box with dots or stripes inside it. There aren't any 'ambiguous version' symbols, but they would be useful.)

    I wanted to quickly say 'He's a _____ type,' but I couldn't say that. I had to go back, unfortunately, to saying 'He's a T type instead of an F type,' using the Jung/Myers-Briggs letter system. I did not want to refer to whether it was introverted or extraverted, because I didn't know whether it was introverted or extraverted, so I wouldn't have been able to use the square/L-shape symbols either. I don't want to slip back into using Jung/Myers-Briggs.

    This is a barrier to socionics being accepted in the USA. In order to speak easily in socionics, it helps to have previously learned and understood the Myers-Briggs way of speaking, because there is no quick and easy convenient way to refer to a particular letter without also mentioning its position, and the easiest way to do it is to go back to using MBTI's 'T' or 'F.'

    You shouldn't have to go back to using Myers-Briggs, and if you do, you might be undermining socionics in a way. Socionics should be stand-alone. It should be easy to use without knowing any previous systems. People would feel frustrated when they get confused by the position of the I and the E, wondering whether it refers to extraversion or ethics, and introversion or intuitive. If they feel frustrated, they won't enjoy using the system. It encourages people to slip back into using the familiar old Myers-Briggs types instead of totally relying on the new and unfamiliar socionics types.

    When I was learning socionics for the first time, over the past few weeks, I found it hard to quickly blurt out the letters 'IEE, IEI, EIE, EII' without thinking very slowly and carefully about it. I wanted to make invalid combinations like (it's hard to remember how to do this - I've forgotten - my brain accepted the rules and it's hard to break them now) EEI and IIE.

    I wanted a symbol that was:

    1. unique, referring to only one thing
    2. has no extraversion/introversion tag
    3. has no reference to position

    It isn't a problem with the letter L and the letter S. Those are both unique and tagless.

    You can decide which letters should be changed. E could mean ethical or extraverted, and it doesn't matter to me which one. Same with I for introverted or intuitive.

    MBTI chose to use the letter 'N' from the second letter in the word 'iNtuitive.' That's one way of doing things, but not the only way. You could also find a totally different word for 'intuitive,' a synonym, and use that word's first initial. Socionics has no obligation to stay connected with MBTI and use the letter 'N' so that it's familiar to MBTI users. Instead, socionics can be a totally different language of its own.

    Which words are most unique and essential - which one should be kept, and which one discarded? 'Ethics' has a slightly different connotation than MBTI's 'feeling.' Is 'extraversion' an essential word that we have to use, or is there a substitute for it? - I once saw a web page where they called it 'Objective/Subjective' instead of 'Introverted/Extraverted' for each of the functions, for instance, 'objective ethics' instead of 'extraverted ethics.'

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    So basically, you want to overhaul the system because you want to save a second or two of speaking/typing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    So basically, you want to overhaul the system because you want to save a second or two of speaking/typing.
    We have a winner.

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    just say "he's ethical"

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    It's better to get used to referring directly to the eight Information Elements, anyway (Fe, Te, Se, Ne, Fi, Ti, Si, Ni). Most people I know who've been studying socionics for a while refer to general "Thinking" or "Feeling" only in the very early stages of diagnosing someone's type, if that. The IEs are much more useful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    It's better to get used to referring directly to the eight Information Elements, anyway (Fe, Te, Se, Ne, Fi, Ti, Si, Ni). Most people I know who've been studying socionics for a while refer to general "Thinking" or "Feeling" only in the very early stages of diagnosing someone's type, if that. The IEs are much more useful.
    This too. The dichotomies alone don't mean so much. The IE's create the dichotomies, not the other way around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    It's better to get used to referring directly to the eight Information Elements, anyway (Fe, Te, Se, Ne, Fi, Ti, Si, Ni). Most people I know who've been studying socionics for a while refer to general "Thinking" or "Feeling" only in the very early stages of diagnosing someone's type, if that. The IEs are much more useful.
    I've always wondered - how do you say the Information Elements? "Fee"? "F.E."? "Feh"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by We Are Carbon View Post
    I've always wondered - how do you say the Information Elements? "Fee"? "F.E."? "Feh"?


    It should be obvious I think. I've actually heard them pronounced as words.

    The lettering is Xy. It's not a word, it's an abbreviation for y___ X___. So, for "Te", being Extraverted Thinking, you'd say "Tee*ee".

    However, as long as you're on the internet, you can pronounce it as you like without criticism.
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    I use "ee" and "ay", probably due to foreign languages I've sung in. In general, it's not that big of a deal, unless you're concerned about looking stupid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    It's better to get used to referring directly to the eight Information Elements, anyway (Fe, Te, Se, Ne, Fi, Ti, Si, Ni). Most people I know who've been studying socionics for a while refer to general "Thinking" or "Feeling" only in the very early stages of diagnosing someone's type, if that. The IEs are much more useful.
    agree. This is where the meat of socionics is (and the major distinction from Myers Briggs as i see it).
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    lol I always pronounced them xee and yey as well. Though, if I were actually using them in conversation, I would actually say the words, such as "extroverted intuition".
    Last edited by nil; 04-04-2011 at 08:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by We Are Carbon View Post
    I've always wondered - how do you say the Information Elements? "Fee"? "F.E."? "Feh"?
    Fo Fum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    The lettering is Xy. It's not a word, it's an abbreviation for y___ X___. So, for "Te", being Extraverted Thinking, you'd say "Tee*ee".
    Agreed.

    However, I sometimes pronounce combinations of elements, such as FeSi or TeNi, as if they were names: "Fey-see" and "Tee-ney". It's quicker that way -- but mostly it's just for my own amusement.
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    lol @ u guys.

    I say Fe as "eff-eee", Fi as "eff-aye", Te as "tee-eee", Ti as "tee-aye", etc.
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    I sort of answered my own question. This was somewhere on wikisocion but I don't have the link to it right now. I don't know why they chose the particular letters they chose (like 'R' for Fi, for instance). It might have something to do with translating it from Russian.

    Si - S
    Ne - I
    Ti - L
    Fe - E
    Ni - T
    Se - F
    Fi - R
    Te - P

    EIE = ET
    EII = RI
    ESE = ES
    ESI = RF
    LIE = PT
    LII = LI
    LSE = PS
    LSI = LF
    SEE = FR
    SEI = SR
    SLE = FL
    SLI = SP
    IEE = IR
    IEI = TE
    ILE = IL
    ILI = TP

    Do these contain the info about position? What position is the letter in? Is it the leading 1st or creative 2nd function? Position attribute could be:

    S1, S2
    I1, I2
    L1, L2
    E1, E2
    T1, T2
    F1, F2
    R1, R2
    P1, P2

    I still would find it useful to have some way to say 'ethics' (for instance) without knowing whether it's introverted or extraverted. When I'm guessing someone's type, it's sometimes easy for me to see that they seem to be using logic or ethics, but I don't have any idea whether it's introverted or extraverted, or whether it's the base function or creative function. I just want to say 'It's in there somewhere.'

    I know I'm able to just write the word 'ethics.' But I like to save keystrokes. And I'm not sure how to type the commands to draw those images of the triangles and circles, and anyway, those don't have a 'not sure which kind it is' image.

    I really don't like it that I have to resort to calling it 'F' or 'T' from Myers-Briggs. I'd like socionics to be distinct from Myers-Briggs. Socionics could stand alone without any references to the other system, and it would be convenient to use.

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    Is it really that hard to learn the 3 letter words?
    In that case I'd just start calling types by their 2 ego functions - i.e. INFp is a NiFe type. Or just go back to using INFp etc. completely. The system you put there is even more complicated & confusing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Retmeishka View Post
    I don't know why they chose the particular letters they chose (like 'R' for Fi, for instance). It might have something to do with translating it from Russian.
    http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...wo-letter_code

    according to Wikisocion, it was Victor Gulenko who came up with two-letter system. the letters come from the Latin names he assigned to each element. the first letter for a type is their Base function element, and the second letter is their Creative function element.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retmeishka View Post
    I really don't like it that I have to resort to calling it 'F' or 'T' from Myers-Briggs. I'd like socionics to be distinct from Myers-Briggs. Socionics could stand alone without any references to the other system, and it would be convenient to use.
    dichotomies are a part of Socionics too, so imho it's not a big deal to refer to "F/Feeling" types. people will generally understand that you're referring to Ethical types if you say that. also since both systems are heavily based on Jung, you don't need to treat them as being completely different from each other, because they're not - just keep in mind that yes, they are separate systems and note the differences between them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Retmeishka View Post
    Do these contain the info about position? What position is the letter in? Is it the leading 1st or creative 2nd function?
    Just look at the ordering of the letters...

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    @glamourama: wtf is that ugly thing in your avatar?
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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
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    that's hot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat View Post
    that's hot.

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    My ass is hot.
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    Ignore dichotomies, esp. for beginners. Focus on the essence of the functions, general information element descriptions 'what they are in the essence.' Gulenko wrote some good function descriptions, but even those melded interpretations can tie closely to E/I and not enough to the complete dominant orientation.

    I think this page is interesting to look at, because it takes from all information element descriptions of every function: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...3&postcount=48. (notice how these don't sound all that flavored toward E or I. That's what you want.)

    Take Fe for example. Even it isn't that purely extroverted, nor are all Fe-doms supposed to look like social drama queens. I know some who might be mistyped as xEI just because they are calm and don't express themselves as much. "Emotions, mood, humor, stress, inspiration, excitement, passion" these all in their dominant value can be introverted, along with the person itself. Likewise you can make the argument that 'drama queen' status is the most Fe a person can ever be, and you might be correct. But that doesn't mean the introvert is stronger in another function, if Fe is still the strongest and most identifiable. So it's always good to look for the main value in a person, when you type them. The most similar you will find an introvert to an extravert is when they share the same dominant orientation. I don't remember any good raw essential IE descriptions off the top of my head, but if I do I will post.

    Reinin Dichotomies probably also have somewhat better quality than the adopted Jung/MBTI ones. I'm not entirely certain about that, but I've found them to work well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    My ass is hot.
    Diaper rash?

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