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Thread: Use of the Id functions

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    Default Use of the Id functions

    What are they used for? (functions 7 and 8).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Air View Post
    What are they used for? (functions 7 and 8).
    They're the way of dealing with the world that you reject in favour of your ego functions. As such they tend to perceive information reactively and need to be "triggered", this is true of all vital functions.

    I suppose they can be "used" in that one is always aware of their Ignoring function, but pursues their base function instead, and similarly one can offer up their Demonstrative without reframing it in terms of their Creative (which is what normally happens).

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    For doing my taxes.

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    I see them as complimenting your dual-seeking and hidden agenda functions respectively. Using your 7th can help bridge the gap of understanding between you and your dual and semi-dual, for one.

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    Demonstrative

    xLI - Personal philosophy - > Getting people on your level to do business
    xEE - Personal influence - > Getting people on your team to make allies
    xII - Personal outlooks - > Getting people aware of the future to acknowledge the ability to change
    xSE - Personal territory - > Getting people to behave to create a controlled environment
    xEI - Personal allies - > Getting people to be allies to increase your influence
    xLE - Personal business - > Getting people to work together to understand their structure
    xSI - Personal comfort - > Getting people to be comfortable to declare your territory
    xIE - Personal abilities - > Getting people to acknowledge your abilities to change their outlooks(the future)

    Limiting / Observing / Ignoring
    (the words can be used interchangeably, so use them as such!)

    LxE - Philosophy - > Observing the structure of people and situations to control its business
    ExI - Influence - > Observing the influence of people and situations to control allies
    IxE - Outlooks - > Observing the outlooks of people and situations to control their abilities
    SxI - Territory - > Observing the territory of people and situations to control its suitability
    ExE - Allies - > Observing the allies of people and situations to control your influence
    LxI - Business - > Observing the business of people and situations to control its structure
    SxE - Suitability - > Observing the suitability of people and situations to control the territory
    IxI - Abilities - > Observing the abilities of people and situations to control the future
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    What.

    SEI = Ignoring Se = Base Si = aware of power structures and power plays, but preferring to not take part in them.
    SEI = Demonstrative Fi = Creative Fe = aware of how actions impact relationships, and capable of forming right/wrong moral judgements of behaviour, but focuses on maintaining a relaxed, harmonious atmosphere that keeps people on good terms. Also inclined to discard judgements formed--why Fi PoLRs come across to Fi Demonstratives as "loveable assholes".

    See how this is just a restatement of the SEI's ego functions? The Mediator can equally refer to either SiFe Ego or FiSe Id.

    EDIT

    And what the hell does "suitability" even mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Egbert Human View Post
    What.

    SEI = Ignoring Se = Base Si = aware of power structures and power plays, but preferring to not take part in them.
    SEI = Demonstrative Fi = Creative Fe = aware of how actions impact relationships, and capable of forming right/wrong moral judgements of behaviour, but focuses on maintaining a relaxed, harmonious atmosphere that keeps people on good terms. Also inclined to discard judgements formed--why Fi PoLRs come across to Fi Demonstratives as "loveable assholes".
    Agreed.

    See how this is just a restatement of the SEI's ego functions? The Mediator can equally refer to either SiFe Ego or FiSe Id.
    Definitely.

    However, the idea is to see how a type directs their Id toward Ego pursuits. This is for people who need to understand how it works, and what it looks like.

    Also, types who have similar Creative/Demonstrative:

    FPs are diplomatic.
    TPs are resourceful.
    FJs are socially controlling.
    TJs are business-like.

    EDIT

    And what the hell does "suitability" even mean?
    Still trying to figure this one out. It encompasses comfort, "rightness", like good vibes about a situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    I see them as complimenting your dual-seeking and hidden agenda functions respectively. Using your 7th can help bridge the gap of understanding between you and your dual and semi-dual, for one.
    I have found this statement to be particularly interesting.

    imo these functions ARE used, but more rarely than Ego fctns, because they require the Ego (preferred) functions not to work at all in order to function.
    It is said they're used under stress, I agree, they can also be deliberately used in situations that demand them, because the person has quite a good grasp of them, though the person dislikes them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I don't think they're used. At best, I think people just attempt to emulate them through their ego fxns.
    This is of course one significant area where we differ.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Egbert Human View Post
    SEI = Ignoring Se = Base Si = aware of power structures and power plays, but preferring to not take part in them.
    SEI = Demonstrative Fi = Creative Fe = aware of how actions impact relationships, and capable of forming right/wrong moral judgements of behaviour, but focuses on maintaining a relaxed, harmonious atmosphere that keeps people on good terms. Also inclined to discard judgements formed--why Fi PoLRs come across to Fi Demonstratives as "loveable assholes".?
    An excellent description; pretty much exactly how I would have described it.

    The Id is just as aware of the details and complexities of what's going on with its elements out there in the world, but prefers to handle them quickly and quietly, without talking or thinking too much about them. An LII, for example, will be quite good at improving the efficiency or productivity of a task (Te), and will do so if necessary, but gets really bored and even annoyed if people want to talk about it and focus attention on it too much. It's a bothersome task that he feels like he has to take care of before he gets back to the things he really cares about: his Ego functions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Air View Post
    I have found this statement to be particularly interesting.

    imo these functions ARE used, but more rarely than Ego fctns, because they require the Ego (preferred) functions not to work at all in order to function.
    It is said they're used under stress, I agree, they can also be deliberately used in situations that demand them, because the person has quite a good grasp of them, though the person dislikes them.
    Hmmm, I don't think that's the case, actually. It's just that by using the 7th, you don't put as much attention on the function that is most linked to your sense of self-worth/confidence. As long as you're in a "safe" environment, where the function is taken under consideration, you shouldn't have any issues using your 7th. (what I just wrote is kind of crude, but I don't have much time atm).

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    In my view, 7 and 8 are elements that are, in terms of awareness, 'there' but not at the foreground of our thought. They heavily influence our subconscious. When brought to the forground by someone else, 7 is scoffed at as something that is superfluous and not worth spending energy on emphasizing, and 8 is regarded as obvious and was safely assumed. I think we see them as things that work themselves out because we always take care of it without thinking about it especially in the case of function 8. Function 7 is more or less something that is dismissed because it gets in the way of trying to pull out function 5 from wherever we can find it.

    For example, EIE may dismiss the idea that they are are infringing on someone's personal boundarys. Everyone is just having fun, they don't mean it that way. They may sigh in response because they just see it as an irritation. They may wonder why people emphasize such an irrlevance.

    OTOH, IEI are making the best of everyone's personal boundaries, and they already acted in a way that took that into consideration even though they didn't think about it. Their emotional engagement is more subdued and/or less frequent as a consequence, but more 'perfected' in the sense that all the details are taken care of. It's hard to even imagine an IEI or SEI making someone uncomfortable. So even if someone were to tell them they had to consider that, they wouldn't even take the statement seriously because it was so obvious and a complete non-issue. They might wonder why someone would bring up sosmething so obvious and ultimately not as high a priority anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Air View Post
    What are they used for? (functions 7 and 8).
    It is used to deceive other in thinking you are another type. It helps to make friends with your conflictor to avoid hurting your Polar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    In my view, 7 and 8 are elements that are, in terms of awareness, 'there' but not at the foreground of our thought. They heavily influence our subconscious. When brought to the forground by someone else, 7 is scoffed at as something that is superfluous and not worth spending energy on emphasizing, and 8 is regarded as obvious and was safely assumed. I think we see them as things that work themselves out because we always take care of it without thinking about it especially in the case of function 8. Function 7 is more or less something that is dismissed because it gets in the way of trying to pull out function 5 from wherever we can find it.

    For example, EIE may dismiss the idea that they are are infringing on someone's personal boundarys. Everyone is just having fun, they don't mean it that way. They may sigh in response because they just see it as an irritation. They may wonder why people emphasize such an irrlevance.

    OTOH, IEI are making the best of everyone's personal boundaries, and they already acted in a way that took that into consideration even though they didn't think about it. Their emotional engagement is more subdued and/or less frequent as a consequence, but more 'perfected' in the sense that all the details are taken care of. It's hard to even imagine an IEI or SEI making someone uncomfortable. So even if someone were to tell them they had to consider that, they wouldn't even take the statement seriously because it was so obvious and a complete non-issue. They might wonder why someone would bring up sosmething so obvious and ultimately not as high a priority anyway.
    Excellent summation. I agree entirely.
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    You may be right Azeroffs. I think 7th is called restricting exactly because it is used when one wants to restrict others from one's personal boundaries. 8th is more mysterious to me, because it is used sporadically with very much proficiency but its use seems to be chaotic. It's used to show to others that you actually CAN use that function imo, so that they are not mistaken about your self.

    The use of the 8th in LSE for example requires his Si not to function, because two opposing Sensing functions cannot be used at the same time imo. So when he uses Ti as restrictive, he cannot use Te for that time.

    Someone said sometimes it's difficult to see whether someone is beta ST or delta ST because both have very good grasping of all S and T functions and can use them with proficiency. I have used lots of Se and use it with proficiency though I clearly prefer Si and use it much more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by No Longer a Dating Site View Post
    It is used to deceive other in thinking you are another type. It helps to make friends with your conflictor to avoid hurting your Polar.
    lol I've found I can make people think I am beta ST by using the Id functions.

    THIS IS SO FUCKING FUN AND MAKES ME JUST WANT TO PUNCH SOMEONE IN THE FACE LOLOLOL.

    lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Air View Post

    Someone said sometimes it's difficult to see whether someone is beta ST or delta ST because both have very good grasping of all S and T functions and can use them with proficiency. I have used lots of Se and use it with proficiency though I clearly prefer Si and use it much more.
    Knew an ESTp who was the new girl. She was definitely using her Id, as I thought she was a workaholic ESTj. But as she became one of us, she relaxed greatly, and started being all Beta-ish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Knew an ESTp who was the new girl. She was definitely using her Id, as I thought she was a workaholic ESTj. But as she became one of us, she relaxed greatly, and started being all Beta-ish.
    that could be a rebellious ESTJ, there are beta-ish ESTJs and ISTPs. I dunno what exactly you mean by beta-ish, but look at 50 cent people type him ISTP and he's all beta-ish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Air View Post
    that could be a rebellious ESTJ, there are beta-ish ESTJs and ISTPs. I dunno what exactly you mean by beta-ish, but look at 50 cent people type him ISTP and he's all beta-ish.
    Nah as time progressed everything became obvious. Very characteristic of an ESTp so I don't want to go into details, but DS and her HA insecurity were extremely clear. She's the one that got me into astrology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Nah as time progressed everything became obvious. Very characteristic of an ESTp so I don't want to go into details, but DS and her HA insecurity were extremely clear. She's the one that got me into astrology.
    ok don't give me this girl's example but show me how DS-Ni and HA-Fe 'insecurity' would manifest in someone irl please. i want to know if I'm estp.

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    These functions are subconscious; you start talking about things related to them. Like, with my Ni, I've noticed that I'll start talking about events that happened in the past, in letters and such, making me demonstrate Ni. I sometimes can't help it, it's not conscious; this process creeps up at me; I don't really pay too much attention to it; but somehow it makes me sink in further into my Fi feelings, making me linger on my feelings more as they are related to events that are already past or will come. It makes me much more of an I than anything, so it would be healthy if I could avoid them. I would say for you, this is your Ti demo, you're analyzing the 7th and 8th functions, that's pretty Ti and by doing so, you're further introverting (thinking).

    Here's another way that my Ni works so well, almost interchangeably with Ne. I can, without knowing how, get the time of the day in preparation of events down so precisely that it's unbelievable even to me. I don't have to look at a time or to rush.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-30-2011 at 06:39 AM.

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    Theoretically speaking, the observing function should be a connection that feeds the leading function to determine and act with the leading function. It's as if your leading function is like a program that runs on the observing input. The observing function input would be somewhat shallow compared to the leading function processing and output from that processing.

    I guess the demonstrative is like an unconscious programmer's hands that restructures how the leading function program processes the observing data, always being there influencing you in vast ways. Conceptually you don't want to focus on the demonstrative because its orientation to your preferred thinking is to observe and aid in creating something you feel will be above it in terms of quality of effect, and not to take command of what's created because the product will be inferior, so focusing on it seems pointless.

    But that's strictly theoretical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Air View Post
    ok don't give me this girl's example but show me how DS-Ni and HA-Fe 'insecurity' would manifest in someone irl please. i want to know if I'm estp.
    I'm better with specifics, but real life?

    DS - Reading up on and maybe even practicing "light" mystical subjects like astrology or numerology to get a sense of what will happen in the future or higher meaning. Doing drugs for the mind-altering experience. Getting weird vibes about certain people and situations, or having weird dreams, maybe even "premonitions". Going to church and being religious, if ESFp, quoting Bible verses. Paranoia.

    ESTp - HA - Keeping people at a distance, waiting for them to prove themselves. Surrounding yourself with eccentric or interesting characters. Being loud or offensive, emotional vulnerability, needing attention. Partying all the time(involves ), reacting aggressively & sharply, being a loner/loser. Appreciating affection or camaraderie. Duty/action love > verbal love.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Air View Post
    lol I've found I can make people think I am beta ST by using the Id functions.

    THIS IS SO FUCKING FUN AND MAKES ME JUST WANT TO PUNCH SOMEONE IN THE FACE LOLOLOL.

    lol
    Yes yes,, this is exactly how it is used. You are perfectly aware of your Id functions and use them well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Demonstrative

    xLI - Personal philosophy - > Getting people on your level to do business
    xEE - Personal influence - > Getting people on your team to make allies
    xII - Personal outlooks - > Getting people aware of the future to acknowledge the ability to change
    xSE - Personal territory - > Getting people to behave to create a controlled environment
    xEI - Personal allies - > Getting people to be allies to increase your influence
    xLE - Personal business - > Getting people to work together to understand their structure
    xSI - Personal comfort - > Getting people to be comfortable to declare your territory
    xIE - Personal abilities - > Getting people to acknowledge your abilities to change their outlooks(the future)

    Limiting / Observing / Ignoring
    (the words can be used interchangeably, so use them as such!)

    LxE - Philosophy - > Observing the structure of people and situations to control its business
    ExI - Influence - > Observing the influence of people and situations to control allies
    IxE - Outlooks - > Observing the outlooks of people and situations to control their abilities
    SxI - Territory - > Observing the territory of people and situations to control its suitability
    ExE - Allies - > Observing the allies of people and situations to control your influence
    LxI - Business - > Observing the business of people and situations to control its structure
    SxE - Suitability - > Observing the suitability of people and situations to control the territory
    IxI - Abilities - > Observing the abilities of people and situations to control the future
    This is good. But it seems like each of those relationships can be inverted.

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    I don't think they're used. At best, I think people just attempt to emulate them through their ego fxns.
    i agree. i would argue that the absence of the non-ego functions explains their lack of prominence in the psyche better than any theory of them existing in a secondary capacity. the fact that it looks like a person is somewhat capable of using the ID functions is explained by the fact that these functions have things in common with the ego functions that allow them to be emulated by these.

    in short, they're a redundant postulate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    This is good. But it seems like each of those relationships can be inverted.
    Indeed. They need more consistency and precision.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    I'm better with specifics, but real life?

    DS - Reading up on and maybe even practicing "light" mystical subjects like astrology or numerology to get a sense of what will happen in the future or higher meaning. Doing drugs for the mind-altering experience. Getting weird vibes about certain people and situations, or having weird dreams, maybe even "premonitions". Going to church and being religious, if ESFp, quoting Bible verses. Paranoia.

    ESTp - HA - Keeping people at a distance, waiting for them to prove themselves. Surrounding yourself with eccentric or interesting characters. Being loud or offensive, emotional vulnerability, needing attention. Partying all the time(involves ), reacting aggressively & sharply, being a loner/loser. Appreciating affection or camaraderie. Duty/action love > verbal love.
    are these your standards for DS-Ni and HA-Fe? because if so, I am very much ESTP. with the exception of this: Surrounding yourself with eccentric or interesting characters. Being loud or offensive - I don't do these.

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    An ExTp accentuating is annoyingly loud, offensive and/or attention whore-ish. But that all stems from emotional vulnerability, if you got good friends and a good family, there's no need to be like that.

    Beta is all about the range of personalities you can get a feel for. They're more likely to hang around people who stand out.

    ==========
    Not my standards, "signs" is more appropriate. There're a lot of things you perceive that you can't verbalize.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    These functions are subconscious; you start talking about things related to them. Like, with my Ni, I've noticed that I'll start talking about events that happened in the past, in letters and such, making me demonstrate Ni. I sometimes can't help it, it's not conscious; this process creeps up at me; I don't really pay too much attention to it; but somehow it makes me sink in further into my Fi feelings, making me linger on my feelings more as they are related to events that are already past or will come.
    This is a great post, yes I agree that the Id functions creep up on you, they affect your conscious thoughts without you trying. Especially true of the demonstrative.

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