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Thread: Do ENFps and INFjs need a "benevolent taskmaster"?

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    Default Do ENFps and INFjs need a "benevolent taskmaster"?

    Ok so this is a recurring theme, and it's something I'd like to talk about seriously. I'm not trying to be 'macho' or trying to belittle delta NFs here - I want to have an open dialogue about something.

    (FYI I will define taskmaster in the following way: "someone who imposes hard or continuous work" is a starting point, but more so, wanting someone like that in your life and the relationship you have with that kind of person. I'm not talking about a mega jerk "boss" type person, but more like "and administrator" of some sort, that is very upfront about goals, production, regulation, etc)



    My first real experience with what I'd like to describe was with a delta NF friend. She was an EII. And she was strong and independent and all that. She was well educated and professional. But, over time, she revealed that she was 'needy' in certain ways, and it had to do with addressing certain issues in her life. I remember essentially being asked to holder her hand and calm her down when she was starting a project that was difficult or stressful. And I remember her calling me on the phone more than once to talk about something chaotic in her life and figure out how to proceed forward.

    You could say "weak Se and weak Te".

    But furthermore, with this person and with others, with both types of NFs, there is this sort of very strong sense of desiring for a 'benevolent taskmaster', and at times almost a refusal to acknowledge it. It depends a lot on the NFs disposition of 'accepting help" from other people or their appearance of being needy.

    I'm not really interested in 'arguing' about whether or not it's there, or the right semantics to address it. But I am interested in finding out// discussing what works for delta NFs.



    Some questions to consider


    • What kind of relationship level/closeness do you prefer for someone being a 'taskmaster' with you?
    • In very close / intimate relationships, have you had someone play the role of taskmaster? If yes, how did that go? If not, would you prefer someone like that? Why / why not?
    • Describe what it is like to either 'rely on' or 'appreciate' other people being a taskmaster in your life. How does it help or benefit you? How does it bother you?
    • How does someone being a taskmaster affect your sense of well being?
    • What are common situations that come up that you feel either like you'd prefer to have a taskmaster in your life to help deal with OR you have learned about how to deal with on your own?
    • Do you associate "taskmaster" with someone having an interest in your life? Or concern for your well being? Do you feel like something is wrong or missing or you're not being helped in an important way if someone isn't like that in your life?
    • Do you have any general advice "for" the taskmaster? Things you like or don't like that they do?
    • What has worked for you, personally, to grow and become better at being productive? (This is just about you, and not necessarily about a taskmaster or its influence)



    That's a good starting point.
    More to come.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I appreciate the spirit of the post... even if I'm tentatively confused on Delta NF etc.. As you know, I've expressed my bewilderment at some issues raised about this, so I'll just offer my own 2c.

    I don't like taskmasters. I may spot an authority due to the talents and aid they can give, and choose them on my own, but I still need my space with them. When it comes to unsolicited and/or imposed authority, I'm stubborn or going to blow up even. Not so much nowadays, but it's in my history, I mean. And when it wasn't in my power to completely defy one, I was willing to suffer and take their abuse. For example, I remember this coach who got on my case about not wearing the right gym shorts in class. He even called the shorts I was wearing "gay", just to try to get a rise out of me and change my mind that way. As punishment, he made me run laps outside on the track until I decided to wear those shorts. I never did. I ran every gym glass for the entire semester. I never participated in anything. In my mind, it was the only way to convey that I didn't respect his position or rules. It may not make sense from the outside, but it does to me.

    Anyways.. I'm just using that story about what I'm like in general. I was 12 when that happened. I've never done well with it. Perhaps I shoot myself in the foot for it, but people aren't going to make me budge about things any more than an ISTp. There has to be recognition of talent, trust, respect.. all of those little intangibles that make a taskmaster/pupil arrangement a working one. I don't like it or need it just for the sake of it. And anyone who assumes it is an enemy. And if this isn't typical of Delta NFs, then whatever. I'm happy to be retyped then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post

    • What kind of relationship level/closeness do you prefer for someone being a 'taskmaster' with you?
    • I wouldn't mind being the employee of my husband. I find that I work very well in a couple situation, at work. We can not only get along well, having to deal with work related issues, but also plan to do things after work as an extension or a continuation of our lives...I like it to mix together. My dual cousin has expressed blatant disinterest in working with her spouse. I've had to remind her often that I'm not the same type as he is.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
      In very close / intimate relationships, have you had someone play the role of taskmaster? If yes, how did that go? If not, would you prefer someone like that? Why / why not?
      Yes, my SLI X was "the taskmaster"; I couldn't work with him well, because his suggestive Te was like "here you do ALL this work" and I was like "no, I can't, I don't have that kind of energy" and he was like "what do you do all day...oh wow, you did those few things and that's it?" me, "yes, I have low energy and drive, what I did, I did very well." Him, "you should do more..increasingly more." Me, "no, you do them."....

      The relationship didn't work out very well.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
      Describe what it is like to either 'rely on' or 'appreciate' other people being a taskmaster in your life. How does it help or benefit you? How does it bother you?
      I do love and appreciate watching my duals work and helping in any way I can. They are the big doers who extend consistent energy and drive and I'm a little doer, but what I do, I do very very well. So I hope they appreciate me. I know my cousin appreciates what I do for her. It's a good team when the energy is right/balanced. When the energy isn't balanced and you have to cover for the other person by doing a lot more, than it becomes very difficult and stressful.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
      How does someone being a taskmaster affect your sense of well being?
      I appreciate task-masters and I think it improves my overall sense of well being, because it ensures me that there's team work, and any good combination of teamwork is stressless and easy.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
      What are common situations that come up that you feel either like you'd prefer to have a taskmaster in your life to help deal with OR you have learned about how to deal with on your own?
      Easy, I want help with organization, of my books, in any arrangement of things in efficient order, like a nice spreadsheet...I would love to do the actually detailed work but once the structure is set, I'm all go.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
      Do you associate "taskmaster" with someone having an interest in your life? Or concern for your well being? Do you feel like something is wrong or missing or you're not being helped in an important way if someone isn't like that in your life?
      No. I associate it with teamwork and not some sort of hierarchy. A taskmaster is only someone who can structure things more efficiently. Since I can't do that, I appreciate the assistance of someone better, but in no way does that make me or should that make me feel inferior in a relationship.

      I don't appreciate other relationship dynamics as my task masters, because they expect things from me that I can't do naturally, like my LSI boss and I are really hard to work with each other. He manages ever little detail, bending over to pick up pennies at the cost of bigger amounts, but because he is PoLR, I have to try extra hard to explain to him that some things he has to relinquish control if he's going to save money rather than spend more money to make very little money. I don't want him as my task master; there's no methodology to his approach, it's sudden, impulsive, driven by Se and very very frustrating. His short sightedness (losing dollars bending over to pick up pennies - driven by immediate tasks resulting from immediate sensory reaction) and disinterest in planning causes him to take inefficient actions.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
      Do you have any general advice "for" the taskmaster? Things you like or don't like that they do?
      keep making my life efficient. in every way.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
      What has worked for you, personally, to grow and become better at being productive? (This is just about you, and not necessarily about a taskmaster or its influence)
    Having my dual cousin. Who says to me, "find a place for things and keep them there; that will decrease your energy and make routines, and increase efficiency." She saved me a lot of energy and the energy saving caused me to be more productive in other areas of my life as well as allowing me to be less stressed/distracted/consumed resulting from inability to manage my affairs and inability to manage Si things.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-26-2011 at 05:48 PM.

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    They want someone to tell them how and when to do things, and preferably to show them how and do it for them in many situations where they find themselves confused at actually doing something. I've seen this with INFJ but with ENFP it seems to be something more prevalent on a one-on-one level, because in group settings they like to have a sort of strange psychological dominance so they hide this side of theirs, except from their companion ST, for this person they manifest it openly even in groups.

    Delta NFs are not to be understood using logics or something like that, imo you got to understand them using heart and intuition, which is for me, hard to do. But they're very beautiful and nice flowers of life, usually with good intentions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Air View Post
    They want someone to tell them how and when to do things, and preferably to show them how and do it for them in many situations where they find themselves confused at actually doing something. I've seen this with INFJ but with ENFP it seems to be something more prevalent on a one-on-one level, because in group settings they like to have a sort of strange psychological dominance so they hide this side of theirs, except from their companion ST, for this person they manifest it openly even in groups.

    Delta NFs are not to be understood using logics or something like that, imo you got to understand them using heart and intuition, which is for me, hard to do. But they're very beautiful and nice flowers of life, usually with good intentions.
    No, we can't observe action and factor that into efficiency, to reduce steps from point a to point b. managing time, making time, that is objective an efficient resource. I have found that ENFp's with their activated Te, can be very good at organizing, not very interested in Si though, they aren't as clean/neat as I am. They are great at planing.

    Thank you...I do love being called a flower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by straytk View Post
    I appreciate the spirit of the post... even if I'm tentatively confused on Delta NF etc.. As you know, I've expressed my bewilderment at some issues raised about this, so I'll just offer my own 2c.

    I don't like taskmasters. I may spot an authority due to the talents and aid they can give, and choose them on my own, but I still need my space with them. When it comes to unsolicited and/or imposed authority, I'm stubborn or going to blow up even. Not so much nowadays, but it's in my history, I mean. And when it wasn't in my power to completely defy one, I was willing to suffer and take their abuse. For example, I remember this coach who got on my case about not wearing the right gym shorts in class. He even called the shorts I was wearing "gay", just to try to get a rise out of me and change my mind that way. As punishment, he made me run laps outside on the track until I decided to wear those shorts. I never did. I ran every gym glass for the entire semester. I never participated in anything. In my mind, it was the only way to convey that I didn't respect his position or rules. It may not make sense from the outside, but it does to me.
    For the record, that's pretty much an entirely different topic than what I was getting at. I wouldn't call that person a task master as it has little to do with assisting or encouraging (or even demanding) anything to do with productivity.... it's someone abusing power and being mean to you.


    Anyways.. I'm just using that story about what I'm like in general. I was 12 when that happened. I've never done well with it. Perhaps I shoot myself in the foot for it, but people aren't going to make me budge about things any more than an ISTp. There has to be recognition of talent, trust, respect.. all of those little intangibles that make a taskmaster/pupil arrangement a working one. I don't like it or need it just for the sake of it. And anyone who assumes it is an enemy. And if this isn't typical of Delta NFs, then whatever. I'm happy to be retyped then.
    For what it's worth, I don't think anyone would enjoy that kind of treatment, so I don't think it's significant in terms of typing.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I think anyone who wanted to learn about EII's relationship to taskmasters, then they should read Jane Eyre. Despite being a guy, I think it's a good book.

    IEE is the real Don Quixote, if you ask me. Written by an EII. Not an LII. What a joke.

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    I've read the book, and I definitely see Jane as an EII (Fi subtype, E9 and E1 elements galore). But what are you referring to when you say "taskmaster" ?

    Are you talking about people who impose rules and regulations?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I think of a task master as the structure/parameters setter, that can be demanding and controlling but not hierarchical. I do listen to and appreciate anyone who has insight and can help me get things done efficiently. If that's a task-master than I'll take them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    I've read the book, and I definitely see Jane as an EII (Fi subtype, E9 and E1 elements galore). But what are you referring to when you say "taskmaster" ?

    Are you talking about people who impose rules and regulations?
    I suppose.. yeah, it's hard image to get out of my head. I have no problem with teamwork or recognizing someone's talents to take the lead or teach things though. And it always goes in both directions too. On an individual level, outside of anything soconics related, people develop their own personal talents where they will be the ones who take the lead role. If an SLI has some good design skills, then he or she needs to one to direct a project. Or maybe it's the other way around, and the IEE is in that position. Sometimes "taskmastering" has nothing to do with function roles per se.

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    @thread buhhhhh

    I don't think anybody likes it when work is imposed upon them and they aren't willing to do it. I mean, I really do like it when the other person knows what he wants in life, but for him to impose that desire upon me when I have no interest in the direction he wants to go in sounds miserable. That just sounds like a somewhat unhealthy version of my dad, who liked to impose his own work upon my brother and me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    @thread buhhhhh

    I don't think anybody likes it when work is imposed upon them and they aren't willing to do it. I mean, I really do like it when the other person knows what he wants in life, but for him to impose that desire upon me when I have no interest in the direction he wants to go in sounds miserable. That just sounds like a somewhat unhealthy version of my dad, who liked to impose his own work upon my brother and me.

    Yeah I don't like taskmasters and I wouldn't be comfortable or stay in a relationship that involved someone imposing work upon me.

    I could work with my husband but I wouldn't let him be my "taskmaster". We'd be an equal team or we wouldn't be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    @thread buhhhhh

    I don't think anybody likes it when work is imposed upon them and they aren't willing to do it. I mean, I really do like it when the other person knows what he wants in life, but for him to impose that desire upon me when I have no interest in the direction he wants to go in sounds miserable. That just sounds like a somewhat unhealthy version of my dad, who liked to impose his own work upon my brother and me.
    Same. It even sounds miserable to impose a desire, strategy, etc. on me when I want to go in that direction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    I could work with my husband but I wouldn't let him be my "taskmaster". We'd be an equal team or we wouldn't be.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post

    But furthermore, with this person and with others, with both types of NFs, there is this sort of very strong sense of desiring for a 'benevolent taskmaster', and at times almost a refusal to acknowledge it.
    I honestly don't think there is such sense.
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    I like knowing what I'm supposed to do, what my role is. And for my area of "assigned" work I like knowing why it's there and why it should be done. If there is a needed sequence, I like knowing that, too. (I recently had a work-related experience where this was an issue and I had to "push" to get it resolved.)

    If someone just willy-nilly comes along and starts telling me how to do things, especially if they have no involvement in the project/situation (or no right to insert their will), I will tend to... resist that.

    If I invite your opinion, and you're not already a part of the situation, that's different. It's my choice, in that case, to invite external influence.

    In general, I'd say it's less about telling me what to do and more about bringing clarity.

    If something important is going on, or if there's a feeling that I need to be involved somehow, ambiguity in terms of what's happening, why, and what I should be doing can really bother me and throw me off balance. If I can't provide my own clarity then, yes, I will seek it from others, particularly those who I feel are capable or responsible.

    Again, being "upfront about goals, production, regulation, etc" or "telling me what to do" helps me most when it's in the context of providing me with information I can use to make my own decisions and not when it's about controlling me.


    So, I guess, if you mean by "task master" that this other person is helping master the tasks (helping with figuring out the what, when, where, how, why) as opposed to trying to be master of me - then, yes, that' is something I will often appreciate when in an ambiguous situation.
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    Usually, my duals don't like it when i push for my own will and set my own agenda. I don't mind giving up control of these things to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Usually, my duals don't like it when i push for my own will and set my own agenda. I don't mind giving up control of these things to them.
    Then your duals are arrogant and selfish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Then your duals are arrogant and selfish.
    Yes, most are and that's why they call them controlling.

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    That might be true of Maritsa's duals, we'll have to ask discojoe to be sure, but the LSEs I know respect people who set their own agendas and take control of their own work and have self-initiative and all that neat stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    That might be true of Maritsa's duals, we'll have to ask discojoe to be sure, but the LSEs I know respect people who set their own agendas and take control of their own work and have self-initiative and all that neat stuff.
    Yeah. Maybe. Are any of them married to EII?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Usually, my duals don't like it when i push for my own will and set my own agenda. I don't mind giving up control of these things to them.
    Perhaps the men you go for don't like that, but this is not true for LSEs. My mother and my dissertation advisors are LSEs and they both let me set my own agenda and work at my pace. They are always available when I need advice and help, but they do not assume control.

    LSEs really have a strange reputation around here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Yeah. Maybe. They are the boss of the activities of their spouses...
    No, they are not. My mom is my dad's dual and they are equals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    That might be true of Maritsa's duals, we'll have to ask discojoe to be sure, but the LSEs I know respect people who set their own agendas and take control of their own work and have self-initiative and all that neat stuff.
    Delightful cross-posting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    No, they are not. My mom is my dad's dual and they are equals.
    They do let up control of tasks where they think that one can do them better than the other. They are CONTROLLING. Their eyes are constantly on activities...

    I mean, in a sense, at work, my duals let me do what I want to get the job done, but at home, umm, not so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Yeah. Maybe. Are any of them married to EII?
    My ex-boss' wife was EII. They were a sweet couple. I worked directly for him as his secretary and he still didnt' want to have to hold my hand through things. He wanted me to take initiative, and in fact welcomed me coming up with new ideas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    They do let up control of tasks where they think that one can do them better than the other. They are CONTROLLING. Their eyes are constantly on activities...

    I mean, in a sense, at work, my duals let me do what I want to get the job done, but at home, umm, not so much.
    You have a twisted idea of what LSE/EII duality looks like, and it's partially because you aren't EII, but you specifically looking for a twisted dysfunction relationship is a bit odd regardless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    My ex-boss' wife was EII. They were a sweet couple. I worked directly for him as his secretary and he still didnt' want to have to hold my hand through things. He wanted me to take initiative, and in fact welcomed me coming up with new ideas.
    If LSE are CONTROLLING and you said he isn't than why do they call them that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    If LSE are CONTROLLING and you said he isn't than why do they call them that?
    LSEs are not "controlling" - you read some detail and have misinterpreted it, as you do so often.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    LSEs are not "controlling" - you read some detail and have misinterpreted it, as you do so often.

    Really? Why did they call them that?


    DYAD: CONTROLLING (LSE) - HUMANIST (EII)

    CONTROLLING

    Outwardly severe and businesslike, this sociotype contains in itself a tendency towards two quite different types of love: Pragma and Eros: fire and ice, realistic calculations and passionate affection makes him an internally contradicted person. He prefers to be ruled by reason and does not follow his feelings. Businesslike interests usually prevails over feelings and even over the pleasure from the contact with a loved person. However, periodically it arranges for its sensations a real celebration.

    This is a caring and reliable partner. He does all that is possible for the one he loves. His partner might feel a lack of compliments and verbal expression of feelings, but Controlling proves his love in practice, taking on himself most of the concerns and is fully satisfied if his partner is involved in the common matters and is accomplishing the tasks which require only attention and patience.

    He needs a partner - assistant which won't force his own will, methods or will dictate his own terms. Controlling might appear totally dry, controlling and demanding person if he wouldn't be to a degree softened by the presence of sensual love - Eros. Inclination towards this form of emotional behavior sometimes makes him romantic and generous in relation to the object of his feelings.

    He is capable to be faithful to his partner if the partner satisfies him sexually or if he values such partner in life for practical reasons. His feelings can burn long and vividly, although healthy pragmatism is not alien to him. In the absence of reciprocity he is capable of being guided by the feeling of duty, able to resist a new interest (in a person). He obeys to Pragma his erotic feelings also although he can recall his past lover for a long time.

    HUMANIST

    Combination of diplomatic Storge and inventive Filia makes him an ideal life partner for Controlling who is quite a difficult partner. On one hand Humanist allows him to be the head of the family but on the other hand he demands from a partner mutual understanding and respect to his interests. He specifically checks that he would not have differences with Controlling in worldview, personal behavior in regards to others, in upbringing of children, on future plans and everyday matters.

    In union with Storge - faithful family love, such manifestations of love of Filia hardens even more the union with quick tempered, proud and authoritarian Controlling partner. Humanist like no other finds approach to his dual. He can hold himself in control and do not say something unnecessary.

    Humanist presents his claims in such a form that his partner becomes embarrassed by his unethical behavior and sharp statements. Talks about relationships in this case ends up not with a quarrel but with a reconciliation or with a promise to reexamine his behavior.

    Humanist has an inherent patience and tact, caution and diplomacy but he is natural with those who he loves and prefers to speak the truth or to keep silent. His love Storge seeks happy harmonious family life, full of kindness and mutual concessions. But not onesided! Humanist - not a Victim sociotype. Even if he allows to be guided in practical matters due to his weak ability to deal with difficulties or absence of forceful qualities and confidence in itself, this does not mean he will allow his partner to cross the line dividing a caring friend from a heartless dictator.

    Humanist uses up a lot of mental forces on re-education of his partner and in time makes him closer to his ideal. If the partner does not go for compromises, does not listen to his counsel he can break this union. Controlling is set to the creation of durable family: upon sensing such a threat he can do everything in order to fix the relationship.

    The spiritual side of love for the Humanist means much more than the erotic one, furthermore he is shy and therefore needs an initiative taking partner who will actively show his desires. In love Humanist is restrained, mistrustful, observant. Little deviations in the behavior of the partner he receives painfully and does everything he can in order to preserve reciprocity in feelings. Even if in order to do this it is necessary to demonstrate offense and alienation. Humanist forgives regretting dual and tries to never remind him of the reason for their disagreement.

    Controlling can't stand discussion on personal matter and furthermore discussing relationship problems. Due to this he is inclined to do hasty conclusions and frequently commits ethical slips which complicates his relationships with people surrounding him. Lack of patience and self-control sometimes makes him sharp and tactless, he doesn't have enough not only diplomacy but also self-criticism. Due to this he needs the patience and perseverance of the Humanist who will tactfully and consistently re-educates his dual. Humanist acts not only as an educator but constantly he acts on the conscience of Controlling who is sufficiently sensitive and high moral principles are not alien to him.

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    That doesn't mean LSEs are controlling in the dysfunctional way you're for some odd reason idealizing. That's one of the problems with translations - maybe the Russian word for "controlling" doesn't have the connotations of the Englisih word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    You have a twisted idea of what LSE/EII duality looks like, and it's partially because you aren't EII, but you specifically looking for a twisted dysfunction relationship is a bit odd regardless.
    I fit the description below...what type am I?

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    Oh, look, we're arguing with Maritsa again. How productive.



    On another note, I think the overall Delta NF "allergic" reaction to even the suggestion of Ti+Se in this topic is somewhat amusing.
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    You claim to fit EII descriptions but you obviously are a Fe dominant Ti valuing type.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I fit the description below...what type am I?
    LSE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    You claim to fit EII descriptions but you obviously are a Fe dominant Ti valuing type.
    How is that possible if I value process, if I value efficiency, if I value humanism, Fi over Fe, about a million other things?

    Minde, if you aren't going to support me and provide moral support THAN BUTT OUT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Minde, if you aren't going to support me and provide moral support THAN BUTT OUT.


    You're overreacting.


    I just think it would be good to stay on topic and help Ryu get his questions answered. You've said yourself that you won't change your mind on things (I think you say it's an IJ trait) - therefore it's pointless to try to disagree with you.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post


    You're overreacting.


    I just think it would be good to stay on topic and help Ryu get his questions answered. You've said yourself that you won't change your mind on things (I think you say it's an IJ trait) - therefore it's pointless to try to disagree with you.
    She's so annoying to me...always bringing up this "you're Fe/Ti" BS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    She's so annoying to me...always bringing up this "you're Fe/Ti" BS.
    She just likes you a lot and she's trying to help, and fight those who say you're Fe/Ti in her own way.

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    Let's try some things to work out better relations...and see if they work, why the fuck not, I'm an Fi base. Let's see if we can adjust relations and make it barely tolerable to be in the same thread together.

    How about Mariella, you just not mention what type you think I am, and that won't frustrate the living daylights out of me and we can just stay on topic.

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