ESTjs/ISTps being suspicious of weird and unusual

[ashlesha]

came across this reading an old thread i don't want to bump. something about delta caregivers being interrogative of things that are unusual or foreign to them. this really bothers me. i'm trying to think of an example thats not personal. maybe with socionics - like, "why would you study something like that? what the hell?" (with this underlying tone of "wtf is wrong with you?") and then you end up feeling dirty and weird for something totally innocuous. :/

i dont think its only delta Si types i've encountered this with, but i saw it brought up in that context which is what made me want to talk about it. is it actually type related? do you have experience with it? how should one react to this sort of thing?

[ashlesha]

i'm thinking this probably isn't type related, or at least not strongly type related. i just wanted an excuse to talk about it cos it bugs me a lot.

[EyeSeeCold]

came across this reading an old thread i don't want to bump. something about delta caregivers being interrogative of things that are unusual or foreign to them. this really bothers me. i'm trying to think of an example thats not personal. maybe with socionics - like, "why would you study something like that? what the hell?" (with this underlying tone of "wtf is wrong with you?") and then you end up feeling dirty and weird for something totally innocuous. :/

It's Alpha/Delta methinks.

[April]

i'm thinking this probably isn't type related, or at least not strongly type related. i just wanted an excuse to talk about it cos it bugs me a lot.

Yeah, I agree with all this. It bugs me, too. I've seen several types do this, but with more frequency with ESTj, ISTj, and ISFj. Just my experience.

[DirectorAbbie]

I don't know much about MBTI, but it is similar to socionics. But it is not socionics. So it is evil.

Is this the sort of thing you're referring to?

[Absurd]

I don't know much about MBTI, but it is similar to socionics. But it is not socionics. So it is evil.

Is this the sort of thing you're referring to?

Absolutely!

[ashlesha]

I don't know much about MBTI, but it is similar to socionics. But it is not socionics. So it is evil.

Is this the sort of thing you're referring to?

i don't think so. it wouldn't be that MBTI is evil because its not socionics. more like MBTI is suspicious and potentially evil because you're not familiar with it.

like: you knit mittens? why would you do that? you can buy mittens at the store, can't you? how could knitting be enoyable? (and meanwhile the tone of voice being used is accusatory, and it sounds like they think you're weird or doing something wrong.)

[DirectorAbbie]

i don't think so. it wouldn't be that MBTI is evil because its not socionics. more like MBTI is suspicious and potentially evil because you're not familiar with it.

like: you knit mittens? why would you do that? you can buy mittens at the store, can't you? how could knitting be enoyable? (and meanwhile the tone of voice being used is accusatory, and it sounds like they think you're weird or doing something wrong.)

I can't relate to that. How about this?

You like sushi? I've never tasted it, but it's gross, and you're a freak for enjoying it.

[Absurd]

I can't relate to that. How about this?

You like sushi? I've never tasted it, but it's gross, and you're a freak for enjoying it.

Come on DA, get some sushi inside you, it's mighty tasty and delicious.

[ashlesha]

I can't relate to that. How about this?

You like sushi? I've never tasted it, but it's gross, and you're a freak for enjoying it.

hah, i usually just interpret that sort of thing as, "i *think* sushi would be gross and i'm trying to get a reaction out of you." i think its kind of silly, but it only annoys me if they insist or seem to really mean it or something. it doesn't get under my skin in the same way as the other thing.

[EyeSeeCold]

xxxjs have irrational fears and xxxps have rational fears?

[ashlesha]

xxxjs have irrational fears and xxxps have rational fears?

i don't follow. are you suggesting this is a tendency of rational types?

[jessica129]

I was going to say I didn't do what the OP was talking about then I read her(?) use the word "innocuous" and thought she was evil for that because people don't really talk like that in real life...it made me think they were trying to impress someone...not just the OP, but people do it here a lot and it bothers me and I think they're weird and I don't like it. For example, when would you EVER use 'innocuous' when you're talking with people in real life? If someone talked like that everyone WOULD THINK THEY'RE WEIRD.

[ashlesha]

I was going to say I didn't do what the OP was talking about then I read her(?) use the word "innocuous" and thought she was evil for that because people don't really talk like that in real life...it made me think they were trying to impress someone...not just the OP, but people do it here a lot and it bothers me and I think they're weird and I don't like it. For example, when would you EVER use 'innocuous' when you're talking with people in real life? If someone talked like that everyone WOULD THINK THEY'RE WEIRD.

lol, i do talk like that irl. if i was trying to impress people i wouldn't cos its not really "cool." people say i sound like a teacher or sth. i can't help it though.

edit: and yeah, i think this is kind of related to the thing in the op.

[FDG]

people I know use words like "innocuous" all the time. There's really nothing evil or strange, WTF??

[FDG]

People who get weirded out or offended by "big words" piss me off and I believe they should be killed. Or just kicked in the teeth repeatedly until they learn to get over their irrational fear of dictionaries.

Yep.

[ashlesha]

lol @ your guys's responses in contrast to my Se polr response d:

[stray]

lol @ your guys's responses in contrast to my Se polr response d:

I was totally oblivious on jessica's threat I thought what she said was cute.

[crazedrat]

came across this reading an old thread i don't want to bump. something about delta caregivers being interrogative of things that are unusual or foreign to them. this really bothers me. i'm trying to think of an example thats not personal. maybe with socionics - like, "why would you study something like that? what the hell?" (with this underlying tone of "wtf is wrong with you?") and then you end up feeling dirty and weird for something totally innocuous. :/

i dont think its only delta Si types i've encountered this with, but i saw it brought up in that context which is what made me want to talk about it. is it actually type related? do you have experience with it? how should one react to this sort of thing?

Yeah.. it's Fi & Si, basically.
Delta types are really concerned with fitting in. Being normal.
That can lead them to be rigid and uncompromising. They can also become nasty if you dont fit the standard of normal.

Delta doesn't reason through its values. Instead they rely on their personal value system / needs to define them. It sort of makes them lone wolves. Relationships for a Delta are formed by their aligning values instead of by trying to understand eachother. Dont ask a Delta type to try to understand you.. They dont give a shit.

[Lobo]

It depends on what prompted them to say that. I would imagine that an ESTj, for example, might find it uncomfortable to hear someone want to study something for a career that is very passive and will not get them much money (such as knitting, idk lol). In "Lobo Socionics," the Ej group tends to react more towards topics of self-maintenance (Si) and trends (Ni). If you tell them that you plan on studying something that will not provide you much income to support/take care of yourself and has a good chance of leading nowhere career-wise, they might have a hard time understanding why you would even consider something like that.

The Ip group, on the other hand, would be more sensitive to topics of productivity/results (Te) and emotional influence/perhaps prestige (Fe). So if an ISTp found you weird, it might have been because what you want to study will not produce something tangible which you can make much use of and could affect people's impression of you (like getting ridiculed for it).

That would be my take on it, again, with Lobo Socionics.

EDIT: By "sensitive," I mean to say that the person would be more opinionated towards those topics.

[stray]

Yeah.. it's Fi & Si, basically.
Delta types are really concerned with fitting in. Being normal.
That can lead them to be rigid and uncompromising. They can also become nasty if you dont fit the standard of normal.

You arent gonna get a delta type to question their values. Even the NFs are presumptuous. I dont think they even realize it.

I think one should be careful not to jump there too much.. I happen to like MBTI, but that's one mistake made about SJs. The enforcement of normalcy. In my experience, all you have to do is relate something they know to whatever it is that's supposedly weird. Usually.

That said, I had a harder time with it when I was younger. And I still don't like some ESTjs.. or what passes off as such. Some people can be too confident in their ways. But then, that applies to many types.

[EyeSeeCold]

The Ip group, on the other hand, would be more sensitive to topics of productivity/results (Te) and emotional influence/perhaps prestige (Fe). So if an ISTp found you weird, it might have been because what you want to study will not produce something tangible which you can make much use of and could affect people's impression of you (like getting ridiculed for it).

^ Something similar, I criticize > ego pursuits.

But I don't call people weird or whatever for pursuing some obscure / foreign subject. I probably know more about it then they do.

[ashlesha]

Yeah.. it's Fi & Si, basically.
Delta types are really concerned with fitting in. Being normal.
That can lead them to be rigid and uncompromising. They can also become nasty if you dont fit the standard of normal.

You arent gonna get a delta type to question their values. Even the NFs are presumptuous. I dont think they even realize it.

well it sucks if i'm bothered by the typical behavior of my own quadra. i don't think deltas are immune to this but eh i think this post represents a shitty delta stereotype.

[leckysupport]

IMO the "being normal" thing is far more SF (rational) than Si.

[crazedrat]

well it sucks if i'm bothered by the typical behavior of my own quadra. i don't think deltas are immune to this but eh i think this post represents a shitty delta stereotype.

Socionics is a stereotype. If you ask a question about delta, a steroetype, you're going to get a stereotypical answer. I dont think anyone in this room who types themselves "Delta" is 100 percent Delta. In terms of socionics, what I said is accurate.

[jessica129]

I wasn't pissed off or meaning it rude, it's honestly a pet peeve of mine so I thought I'd express it. I wasn't picking on the OP only, I'm picking on half of the people here who we all know aren't that smart to be using some of the words they're using. Talk normal, thanks.

[jessica129]

And? You're not going to win, stop.

In response to the post you just deleted, crazedrat <3

[stray]

I wasn't pissed off or meaning it rude, it's honestly a pet peeve of mine so I thought I'd express it. I wasn't picking on the OP only, I'm picking on half of the people here who we all know aren't that smart to be using some of the words they're using. Talk normal, thanks.

When it comes pretentiousness, I'm the same way. I can't keep a straight face around it. I probably don't notice it as much as you would though (or call everyone with good diction that way.. just when it's overdone).

[crazedrat]

And? You're not going to win, stop.

In response to the post you just deleted, crazedrat <3

Why do you think I deleted it

[crazedrat]

Nah just picking my battles. Something this place has taught me.

[stray]

Aw, crazedrat is being cutely obedient.



If XSFjs are into the 'being normal' thing, then I suspect they got screwed in the XNTj dual dept.

That, or you did.

[jessica129]

Lol. I've used the word 'innocuous' IRL. I don't think it's such a big deal?

People who get weirded out or offended by "big words" piss me off and I believe they should be killed. Or just kicked in the teeth repeatedly until they learn to get over their irrational fear of dictionaries.

I know perfectly well what innocuous means, that's not my point. My point is, whether you refuse to believe it or not, is that using that in everyday conversation with people of average intelligence will get you an odd look or an inner thought of 'this person is a douche'. YOU KNOW IT. You can't be that socially oblivious.

[ashlesha]

Socionics is a stereotype. If you ask a question about delta, a steroetype, you're going to get a stereotypical answer. I dont think anyone in this room who types themselves "Delta" is 100 percent Delta. In terms of socionics, what I said is accurate.

so i can say anything i want about types and quadras because i can justify it with the idea that its all conceptual and doesn't need to be true or apply to reality. cool, that makes things a lot easier.

and ugh, using big words isn't a guarantee of presumptuousness but complaining about it is a guarantee of insecurity.

this thread became fucked.

[jessica129]

Well I can't speak for the entire population of english speakers, but I know plenty of "big words" yet don't use them because it's not the 'norm' and isn't socially acceptable but if you don't care about that sort of thing, then ya'll go ahead and use those big purdy words.

[crazedrat]

Well I can't speak for the entire population of english speakers, but I know plenty of "big words" yet don't use them because it's not the 'norm' and isn't socially acceptable but if you don't care about that sort of thing, then ya'll go ahead and use those big purdy words.

Fuck off, snob.

so i can say anything i want about types and quadras because i can justify it with the idea that its all conceptual and doesn't need to be true or apply to reality. cool, that makes things a lot easier.

Of course it is conceptual. Socionics was built from the ground up, conceptually. But no, you can't say anything you want. The concept has to make sense and be coherent. In the end it should describe reality fairly well. But it will never describe it perfectly.
It's a conceptual thing applied to reality. It doesn't match with reality 100%. It's not derived from reality. It was created conceptually. After it's created you look for its applications, that is all.

[jessica129]

Fuck off, snob.

lol

[crazedrat]

Theories should evolve to match reality. Obviously they can only approximate reality, but to stick with something merely for sake of conceptual consistency in the face of glaring contradictions, is absurd.

Socionics is special because of how metaphysical it is. Its so basic you can apply socionics to pretty much anything. In that way it's distinct from typical scientific theories, where observations closely contribute to building the theory. Socionics is more like pure theory. That's why socionics is not considered a science and is not widely accepted.
Any attempt to turn socionics into a science would just end up killing it entirely.
Also, something that is too metaphysical isn't going to be rejected due to contradictions, it'll be rejected due to a lack of real applicability. If there are contradictions, then the theory just sucks. But the issue with socionics .. at least the modified versions, isn't contradiction it's bad application of the model; or the model just doesnt apply to reality. People are more complicated than the models.
In the end the whole practice of socionics is what is flawed. At least from an objectivist standpoint. Socionics does not evolve to match observations. It can't.. it would lose sight of its roots if it did. It was born as pure metaphysics, and socionics evolves using metaphysics. The value of socionics is to the subject. Just the process of using socionics evolves how a person thinks. The actual applications of it are always very specific and subjective.

[leckysupport]

If XSFjs are into the 'being normal' thing, then I suspect they got screwed in the XNTj dual dept.

You're forgetting about the magic of duality.

NT elements tend to send people in the direction of being disconnected and uninvolved with society, which isn't always a good thing, as you could probably imagine. SFs brings in some balance or makes NTs more socially normal.

[Minde]

I use long words in normal conversation. It takes effort to censor myself sometimes, when I'm around people I don't talk with on a regular basis. Because, yeah, I don't want them to feel weird. It's kind of nice being around people who are ok with me using all sorts of esoteric terminology.

came across this reading an old thread i don't want to bump. something about delta caregivers being interrogative of things that are unusual or foreign to them. this really bothers me. i'm trying to think of an example thats not personal. maybe with socionics - like, "why would you study something like that? what the hell?" (with this underlying tone of "wtf is wrong with you?") and then you end up feeling dirty and weird for something totally innocuous. :/

i dont think its only delta Si types i've encountered this with, but i saw it brought up in that context which is what made me want to talk about it. is it actually type related? do you have experience with it? how should one react to this sort of thing?

Lol, I've experienced this, especially with my sister's ISTp. It can sting at first, but I've figured out it's just because he isn't thinking about the emotional impact of expressing his initial unfiltered reaction, which in his case is often related to the harsh aspects of reality.

Yeah.. it's Fi & Si, basically.
Delta types are really concerned with fitting in. Being normal.
That can lead them to be rigid and uncompromising. They can also become nasty if you dont fit the standard of normal.

Delta doesn't reason through its values. Instead they rely on their personal value system / needs to define them. It sort of makes them lone wolves. Relationships for a Delta are formed by their aligning values instead of by trying to understand eachother. Dont ask a Delta type to try to understand you.. They dont give a shit.

[Beautiful sky]

We're not concerned with "fitting in" we're concerned with making relationships and identifying the ones of value.