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Thread: Differences between LSEs and SLEs (ESTj vs. ESTp)

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    Default Differences between LSEs and SLEs (ESTj vs. ESTp)

    In the spirit of the day, I thought I'd add one more topic. (I put it here in Delta, even though it probably could have gone elsewhere.)

    Would someone kindly explain to me the difference between the two? Both seem pushy, loud, and activity oriented. I know how they're theoretically different, but how would I differentiate IRL?
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    I dont know if I would say either are nessarily pushy and loud (then again everyone is compaired to INFJs ) but I could say they are activity oriented. ESTPs can be business oriented but unlike ESTJs seem to like more fast paced risky ventures, salesmanship and twisting figures and minds with fast talk and get rich quick schemes. Their emphasis is more on immediate success and the popularity and freedom it brings. ESTJs are perserveering and hard working, less flexible and more conservative. They logically build block on top of block and try to plan for the future and security. ESTPs are more "live fast and die young" and he ESTJ is more " a penny saved is a penny earned". These of course are stereotypes so dont go crazy.

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    Ok, so maybe "loud" and "pushy" weren't the best terms to use. They do sound a little negative, though I wasn't thinking that way. Maybe "aggressive in achieving their goals" would have sounded better. Even that sounds bad.

    Would it be fair to say that ESTjs have a greater sense of personal responsibility? That they're a little more focussed on doing what's "right" than on what's "fun"? Like you said, these are stereotypes. So, of course, it would be unfair to go so far as to say that ESTps have no consciences and that ESTjs are sticks-in-the-mud. But in terms of general tendencies...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Would it be fair to say that ESTjs have a greater sense of personal responsibility? That they're a little more focussed on doing what's "right" than on what's "fun"?
    I think so.

    ESTps are not much into doing what's "right" because of their PoLR, and do what's "fun" rather than what's "right" is more an irrational trait.
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Would it be fair to say that ESTjs have a greater sense of personal responsibility? That they're a little more focussed on doing what's "right" than on what's "fun"?
    I believe so. Not that they don't want to have fun, but they want to do it in the right way. For instance an ESTj friend of mine races his car, but ONLY on a track, ONLY with all the proper safety equipment, ONLY if his car is in excellent working order. . . you get the picture. He's very against street racing, for all the repercussions it often has for more than just the people doing it. Conscientious, and responsible describe him well.
    In part I think its because of which says: the logical tried and true certified way to do something is this or that way. The laws are there because they make sense and any bonehead that gets scrubbed because of ignoring them gets what he deserves.
    So they obey the rules and figure that by doing so they have a better chance at success than those footloose and fancy free types. Plus they get rewards for doing so, so why not?

    Just a thought :wink:

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    Would you guys mind continuing on this topic?

    I know a few people in my life who I am still pretty unsure if they are SLE or LSE. I am thinking I may have mistyped at least one SLE as my dual.

    The thing is I actually tend to get along with SLE really well. Conflicting relationship descriptions do not seem to apply to my experiences with SLE. (Maybe these SLE are really LSE???) I am confused. . .
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    It is very rare that I would confuse these types. At least that is how it seems. They give out a completely different vibe imho. One look in their eyes and you can see the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christy B
    Would you guys mind continuing on this topic?

    I know a few people in my life who I am still pretty unsure if they are SLE or LSE. I am thinking I may have mistyped at least one SLE as my dual.

    The thing is I actually tend to get along with SLE really well. Conflicting relationship descriptions do not seem to apply to my experiences with SLE. (Maybe these SLE are really LSE???) I am confused. . .
    Based on what you say here, there is no way to tell types of anyone you mentioned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Would it be fair to say that ESTjs have a greater sense of personal responsibility? That they're a little more focussed on doing what's "right" than on what's "fun"?
    I think so.

    ESTps are not much into doing what's "right" because of their PoLR, and do what's "fun" rather than what's "right" is more an irrational trait.
    Yes.

    For lack of a better example, look at me and FDG. Whenever I bring up ethics or doing the right thing, he calls me a hardass, no fun, boring, self righteous, etc etc etc. He prefers his own activities. Myself, I have a huge sense of responsibility, not only to the people I am close to but to the world, I feel. Now, this CAN make me self righteous and I can be an ass too, it is not I am better than FDG or not. But I am absolutely focused on doing what is right over what is fun, and that is why I seem so boring, hardass, etc......... to some.

    ESTjs are a lot more "rule" orientated. If there is no order or set of laws, it makes them uncomfortable. Where as an ESTp basically sees rules as restrictions or problems - other people telling him what to do.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Default Re: ESTj v. ESTp

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Would someone kindly explain to me the difference between the two?
    Here is the difference visualized:

    (think of an army officer vs a gangsta)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Courage
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Would it be fair to say that ESTjs have a greater sense of personal responsibility? That they're a little more focussed on doing what's "right" than on what's "fun"?
    I think so.

    ESTps are not much into doing what's "right" because of their PoLR, and do what's "fun" rather than what's "right" is more an irrational trait.
    Yes.

    For lack of a better example, look at me and FDG. Whenever I bring up ethics or doing the right thing, he calls me a hardass, no fun, boring, self righteous, etc etc etc. He prefers his own activities. Myself, I have a huge sense of responsibility, not only to the people I am close to but to the world, I feel. Now, this CAN make me self righteous and I can be an ass too, it is not I am better than FDG or not. But I am absolutely focused on doing what is right over what is fun, and that is why I seem so boring, hardass, etc......... to some.

    ESTjs are a lot more "rule" orientated. If there is no order or set of laws, it makes them uncomfortable. Where as an ESTp basically sees rules as restrictions or problems - other people telling him what to do.
    Lol eheh, it's nice because you also take me seriously and don't see that I take for granted personal responsibility towards people I have already given promises too, whereas you always emphasize it so much...

    bottom line is every civil person doesn't harm others, mantains promises and shit. Doesn't seem a good way to distingiush two types since this way one of the two appears better than the other.

    In any case I'll try (thinking as myself as an ENTj though. It's funny how everybody wanted me to be ENTj when I wanted to be ESTp, and now is the opposite).

    ESTps are generally heavily invested in whatever social group they have. It's rare to see a loner ESTp: in all instances there is a (beta) group of 3-4 people hanging out with them. Generally they tend to care a lot less about doing the things one is "supposed to" such as school-being civil towards others-not breaking things; the upside of this trait is that they do not care about others doing something like this either. An ESTp soccer player is more likely to be a forward and mobilize himself in extreme situations when there is a goal to score. High mobility and speed, but lower resistance.

    ESTjs are generally loners. Except from the group of friend they hang out on sunday evening, they tend to be heavily invested in their school projects, work, and closest relationships (girlfriend/family), dedicating most of their time towards making enough money to support them. They tend to be careful with their "stuff" and are extremely risk averse especially in comparison to ESTps (this trait is one of the most noticeable difference).

    The risk-aversion attitude is generally easily seen in school (less so at work). ESTjs are generally very hard studiers, and tend to prepare themselves for every possible worst outcome by knowing everything. I think Smilingeyes described this as having a list of things that haven't been done, and "checking" them being satisfied only when the list is completed. ESTps tend towards using the most effective, brutal means to achieving a single goal. For example for an exam an ESTp will take all the old exams, memorize how to solve the most common problems among them, and do it. The strategy might work better but there is the downside of not having absorbed a personal system. ESTps wouldn't do anything with an absorbed system simply because they have their own Ti.
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    I don't think ESTjs are necessarily loners, but obligations come first. When the work is done, they are fun, energetic, etc. ESTjs are not stiff rule-followers.
    My mom once kidnapped a dog because it was being abused. She didn't care that she should have returned it to the owner because it was his "property." She wanted to protect it from being mistreated and found a good home.

    ESTjs like structure, but when they see flaws in the system (especially Te, Si, and Fi flaws), they will point them out. The INFj will be better at detecting the "Fi flaw" and communicate them to the ESTj. When the ESTj agrees, s/he will do something to fix it and will not care if that causes the structure to collapse.

    ESTjs like structure because they want to do their work most efficiently, but they don't like structure for structure's sake.

    Many times when people describe ESTjs on here, they describe people I never want to run into, so I tend to think that people are actually describing outgoing ISTj...but that's just me.
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    ESTjs are generally loners. Except from the group of friend they hang out on sunday evening, they tend to be heavily invested in their school projects, work, and closest relationships (girlfriend/family), dedicating most of their time towards making enough money to support them. They tend to be careful with their "stuff" and are extremely risk averse especially in comparison to ESTps (this trait is one of the most noticeable difference).
    Good call.


    My mom once kidnapped a dog because it was being abused. She didn't care that she should have returned it to the owner because it was his "property." She wanted to protect it from being mistreated and found a good home.
    Mhm

    ESTjs like structure because they want to do their work most efficiently, but they don't like structure for structure's sake.
    Yes - that is Te + Si.
    Structure just for structures sake would be more ISTj, or just Ti in general.

    Everything has to be very functional.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    I don't think ESTjs are necessarily loners, but obligations come first. When the work is done, they are fun, energetic, etc. ESTjs are not stiff rule-followers.
    Ok, mine was more a comparison with ESTps, where ESTjs tend to be less pack-orientated than them, usually.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    I don't think ESTjs are necessarily loners, but obligations come first. When the work is done, they are fun, energetic, etc. ESTjs are not stiff rule-followers.
    Ok, mine was more a comparison with ESTps, where ESTjs tend to be less pack-orientated than them, usually.
    Ok, sure. I agree with that.
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    I think what is being discussed here is not the LSE and the SLE, but in fact the LSI and the SEE (which are, incidentally, very similar to MBTT ESTJ and ESTP respectively).

    This whole playful, against-the-rules attitude to life is true of the SEE, not the SLE, which is why Fabio identifies with it (if he is LIE, it still shows why he identifies with it - he is Gamma, and I think most people agree with this).

    The rules etc. are to do with the LSI, not the LSE. Only the ESTJ cares about rules, precautions and the like. There are far too many misconceptions about the LSE. They do shit properly, and they do it well. They are pragmatic; not pedants, or rule-freaks, or perfectionists. You think Schwarzenegger didn't break a few rules? Of course he used his own strength and hard work to get where he did. But they don't care about the 'right way' like people purport the LSE to do so. That is not as big an issue as effectiveness. If everyone followed every little shitty detail to the end, nothing would get done. This is how a Te-dominant thinks. The whole shit that people think is an LSE is actually close to an LSI. They are the ones with the carefully thought-out systems and procedures. Everything defined within them must be right; perfect; whatever. Ti is what people are confusing with LSEs. Consistency is a Ti thing. Pragmatism is a Te thing.

    The difference between an SLE and an LSE I don't know, otherwise I would've decided which one I actually was by now.
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    ESTjs seem much more oriented towards routines. They're more likely to keep the same job for a long period of time, even if it's, by society's standards, a shitty service job.

    ESTps get jobs but they're more interested in moving up than in falling into any routine, indeed they're likely to just stop going to work or to line up a new job when they get bored of the last one - most importantly they actually look forward to 'new beginnings' in this way.

    Also, this may sound surprising, but I find that ESTjs aren't as good at keeping control of themselves when they drink. They tend to drink WAY too much and then do things like black out, puke everywhere and get into stupid fights on the street. ESTps seem more "self-aware" in this regard. Don't get me wrong, they won't hesitate to get piss drunk, but they're more coscious of the consequences, that doing stupid things that disregard their self-interest (like humiliating themself in public), will have the next day and so generally are better at maintaining some semblance of control over themselves at parties so that they can party longer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii
    Also, this may sound surprising, but I find that ESTjs aren't as good at keeping control of themselves when they drink. They tend to drink WAY too much and then do things like black out, puke everywhere and get into stupid fights on the street. ESTps seem more "self-aware" in this regard. Don't get me wrong, they won't hesitate to get piss drunk, but they're more coscious of the consequences, that doing stupid things that disregard their self-interest (like humiliating themself in public), will have the next day and so generally are better at maintaining some semblance of control over themselves at parties so that they can party longer.
    Even though I tend not to get along with ESTps very well I think it is true that they maintain something far more controlled, dignified and less destructive than ESTjs when it comes to consuming excess alcohal. I cannot really count the amount of times the two ESTjs that I work with drank too much and made life just really hard for themselves, one other one even lost his job due to turning up at work obviously drunk and aggressive. What is with ESTjs and alcohal anyway? They all seem to be into drinking big time. One of the two I mentioned has quite bad damage to his liver and yet is still drinking excessively and self-destructively.
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    I do know some ESTj's that are not into drinking. I think that drinking in excess is not type related, since we all are susceptible to addictions. I don't buy the "I love the taste of alcohol" reason for drinking, so my guess is that the majority of people who drink are either doing it for the social aspect or simply because they are going through a rough time. Also, getting drunk here in the states is not looked down upon by the general culture (actually seen as cool), which gives the more reason for people to get piss drunk.

    As for the general thread, I don't see how someone could confuse ESTj's with ESTp's. FDG put it nicely here:

    The risk-aversion attitude is generally easily seen in school (less so at work). ESTjs are generally very hard studiers, and tend to prepare themselves for every possible worst outcome by knowing everything. I think Smilingeyes described this as having a list of things that haven't been done, and "checking" them being satisfied only when the list is completed. ESTps tend towards using the most effective, brutal means to achieving a single goal. For example for an exam an ESTp will take all the old exams, memorize how to solve the most common problems among them, and do it. The strategy might work better but there is the downside of not having absorbed a personal system. ESTps wouldn't do anything with an absorbed system simply because they have their own Ti.
    Specially how ESTp's will do anything to get what they want depending on their desperateness. However, he forgot to say that they discuss ways on how to cheat before an exam. A cheating ESTj is hard to come by...

    On a side note, one thing I have noticed is that if you do something that took too short of a time in a LSE's view, they think that you cheated somehow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan

    Even though I tend not to get along with ESTps very well I think it is true that they maintain something far more controlled, dignified and less destructive than ESTjs when it comes to consuming excess alcohal. I cannot really count the amount of times the two ESTjs that I work with drank too much and made life just really hard for themselves, one other one even lost his job due to turning up at work obviously drunk and aggressive. What is with ESTjs and alcohal anyway? They all seem to be into drinking big time. One of the two I mentioned has quite bad damage to his liver and yet is still drinking excessively and self-destructively.
    I've noticed that many Js, in general (from experience ESFj, INFj, INTj, ENFj, ESTj) seem less able to regulate their drinking when around others that are drinking and so tend to push it too far and 'black out' (as in not remember what they did the night before). I suppose many follow the mantra "work hard, play hard" but end up working too hard, then playing too hard and thus playing less, having to leave before the party's over. The most interesting thing about this is that most of them that I know actually refer to drinking too much, puking and blacking out as "fun" and a night involving these things as a "good night", lol, and I think they're being honest cuz they always do it again.
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    I think maybe it helps them relieve stress. They also like being social and this is one thing that brings people together.

    When I am with ESTJs who are drinking way too much they always want to point out how much I have had to drink, even if it is much less than they have had. . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    I do know some ESTj's that are not into drinking
    .
    I guess there must be some, I haven't met one such one yet though.

    I think that drinking in excess is not type related, since we all are susceptible to addictions
    .

    Really? I do not think we are all susceptible to addictions. Some people are, others aren't.


    Specially how ESTp's will do anything to get what they want depending on their desperateness. However, he forgot to say that they discuss ways on how to cheat before an exam. A cheating ESTj is hard to come by...
    That is totally not true. I do not at all think cheating ESTjs are hard to come by in the least, ESTj seem to need and appreciate moral guidance IME. I think many of them actually do like cheating (it satisfies their Te desires to get things done quicker) and because of remarkably poor they think they will never ever be caught and just continue until they do get caught. The surest example of an ESTj I have dealt with cheated and fabricated evidence for the research he was doing. This was medical research in the field of neurophysiology and the impact of certain drugs. He was taken to court by the university he was working with as his fraud had such far reaching implications on people's life; I would post a link here to his picture, the case and everything but that would not be fair to him. He has paid dearly for his lies because he is now at a total career dead end. He still behaves as if he is some great big caregiver/helper and totally seem not to grasp the lack of ethics and impact his deception could have had on the life of others he thinks he cares for.
    On a side note, one thing I have noticed is that if you do something that took too short of a time in a LSE's view, they think that you cheated somehow.
    That is because they(not all of them) sometimes shorten things by cheating and tend to imagine that others have done the same when they finish things quickly..they seem to be especially suspicious of / in this regard.

    I may prefer dealing with ESTjs over ESTps but that is not because ESTjs are ethically superior, though some ESTjs can do a darn good job of seeming that way to the outside world.
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    Well, each is entitled to his/her opinions. However, I am not one to opiniate on something without considering that their can be truth behind it. When I say that all people are susceptible to addictions, I am not only referring to drinking. It makes sense to me that if something helps give you a quick fix to problems that you will eventually use it over and over again because of the high that it made you feel. Just because it makes sense at the time doesn't mean that it actually helps you in your goals in life, or your overall health, interpersonal realtionships, etc. I don't want to get in a discussion on addictions, just wanted to mention what my thoughts are on it.

    I know ESTj's who cheat, but mostly the ones I've met don't seem to have a cheating mentality. Also, I'm not trying to say that ESTj's are saints and ESTp's devils, I'm just being objective. I have cheated in certain situations where I think that the class was unfair and I did not want to settle for a poor grade.

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    Megan, you have no idea about what you're talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    Well, each is entitled to his/her opinions. However, I am not one to opiniate on something without considering that their can be truth behind it. When I say that all people are susceptible to addictions, I am not only referring to drinking. It makes sense to me that if something helps give you a quick fix to problems that you will eventually use it over and over again because of the high that it made you feel. Just because it makes sense at the time doesn't mean that it actually helps you in your goals in life, or your overall health, interpersonal realtionships, etc. I don't want to get in a discussion on addictions, just wanted to mention what my thoughts are on it.
    I hope you are totally and fully aware that there are people who are very different from you. People with strong for instance tend to have vast self control and tend to be able to get over habits quickly or not prone to developing them at all. Some people including myself have a ethical thing against quick fixes and I can assure you that I am not prone to addiction and I do not have any at all at this point. I do not think anyone in my family is addicted to anything...no drugs, no alcohal, no nothing. I know families where nearly everyone is addicted to something and there is some evidence that addiction has some genetic component as well. If something seems like it is threatening to take me or my life in a direction I dislike then I quite simply make up my mind to give it up even if it is not really easy. There is a thread that FDG started that I found rather interesting in that some of the things I thought everyone thought required effort is easy for him and the things that seem harder for him seem very easy for me. It is the same way with addictions and addiction prone behavior, we are not all the same in that respect either.


    I know ESTj's who cheat, but mostly the ones I've met don't seem to have a cheating mentality. Also, I'm not trying to say that ESTj's are saints and ESTp's devils, I'm just being objective. I have cheated in certain situations where I think that the class was unfair and I did not want to settle for a poor grade.
    I fail to see how you are being objective or even how you could be objective given the points you are trying to make. You are relating your experience only... as is the other people in this thread. Your experience as well as the experience of myself and everyone else here is not an objective indicator of anything and it cannot in all fairness be advanced as evidence to prove anything about a type.

    On your point about your cheating, I have heard ESTjs and others say similar things about their cheating being due to unfairness. If something in my opinion is unfair then I try and remedy the unfairness, I do not consider cheating an ethical option for dealing with unfairness. I really quite far from perfect as I am human and all but I deeply abhor situational ethics/honesty.
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    And I guess I must be desperate to go quoting from Oldham but these things are listed under the likes of ESTJ.

    -deviousness
    -evasion or circumvention of rules
    -delaying tactics
    -the line of least resistance
    http://the16types.info/types.php?typename=ESTJ

    One of the ESTjs I work with has no real problems admitting that he likes deviousness (he actually uses that word) and under-handed methods. I can easily see why people think he and some other ESTs are passive aggressive.


    Quote Originally Posted by aut0
    Megan, you have no idea about what you're talking about.
    Sometimes that does happen I fear, now prove that you know what you are talking about. Which part do you disagree with and why exactly, I did not notice your post before for some reason. Hopefully you will say more than ESTjs just don't cheat because I am pretty sure that a lot of them do.
    Socionics: XNFx
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    Specially how ESTp's will do anything to get what they want depending on their desperateness. However, he forgot to say that they discuss ways on how to cheat before an exam. A cheating ESTj is hard to come by...
    I don't think it's type related, it's a matter of maturity. Ehm, Megan, maybe let's not turn it in an accusation of ESTjs...?

    I have cheated in certain situations where I think that the class was unfair and I did not want to settle for a poor grade.
    Lol. What a crappy self justification. If a class is hard, either you study more or get a poor grade.
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    ESTp = result, narrator, resolute, merry, creation-creating, strategic, irrational, static

    ESTj = process, taciturn, judicious, grave, emotion-creating, tactical, rational, dynamic

    Hmm...

    The question has an inherent problem. Many of the answers in this thread are true if you compare Te-ESTj with Se-ESTp or some other version of the subtypes, but not for the totality of the types...

    Some things that are true but not according to the stereotype...

    ESTjs are more erratic than ESTps and actually have less systemacy in their lives. It's kind of easy to predict the ESTp stance on things. An ESTj might really jump in any direction. An ESTp carries a certain way of life and does it against adversity. An ESTj will either face head-on or completely avert and ignore a challenge that comes his way. An ESTp has a certain amount of roughness towards his environment in general. The ESTj will be more forcibly courteous in some situations and unapologetically nasty in other situations.

    When I think way back to what it was like to be a 9-year old ESTj... I was a loner, the ESTps had a gang. They appreciated sports, I didn't but took school sports more seriously than they did. When playing soccer I was one of the physically weakest guys but I was the best at playing defense because I gave the hardest tackles. (Sorry for the lack of correct terminology, I don't really know soccer jargon). During recess I used to go out to the back of the yard and try to perfect techniques in kicking little stones as far as possible. The ESTps sort of wandered around either participating in other kids' games or ganging up on some one and being bullies. ...
    Now on the bullying... This is kind of weird... A few years prior to that, around the age of 5-6 the ESTp crowd started to bully anyone who was friends with girls. I didn't get it at first and I didn't agree with it at first either but then I sort of learned it as a rule. Girls = have to hate them. After that I took a sort of extra care to act nasty towards girls because I felt it was what one was supposed to do. (Oddly enough, I later heard that a number of the girls had no trouble seeing through my actions and had a kind of a crush on me. Others didn't and hated me.)

    I acted slightly similarly towards teachers. I followed the teachers' instructions better than most people, which gave me a sort of rep as a teachers' pet and a nerd. Thing is, I wasn't particularly nerdish, but I didn't really get that then. I just happened to be good at school and physically weak. Never mind that I was more interested in climbing trees than the intricacies of some abstract subject... Anyway... back to the subject... I really surprised the class a couple of times since I also had the most prominent fights with teachers. This was again something that I sort of learned from the actions of others... A sort of basic rule that while you have to follow teachers' orders you have to oppose them too. On a basic level it was to me a bit like a fight between social classes. Kind of like a workman considers the boss. You have to follow the orders but then you have to spit at him too. I didn't see anything wrong with that kind of a thing. Thing is... this kind of contradictory attitudes don't exist in ESTps. The ESTps were consistent at trying to take as much power from the teachers to themselves as possible, but they never challenged them directly and I thought they were wimps and cowards at heart for that. That's right, I considered then and I consider now, ESTps as cowards.

    My brother too, was an ESTp. We fought a lot. The only person with whom I've physically fought with more than once in my life. There was a basic pattern to it. He'd start some shit like breaking a toy castle that I had made and I'd react extremely strongly and try to beat the shit out of him (something which never worked very well due to age difference). He never got why I cared so much about my handiwork. I never got why he had to be a prick and just cause trouble for others. One particular idea I remember well. I was always complaining that my brother would do anything according to "nature's law" that is, acting like a predator, being a prick for the basic reason that he was stronger than me. Thing is also, afterwards I've had to accept that he never went overboard. He was a consistent prick, but I don't remember him ever doing anything extreme to try to hurt me, just acting consistently abrasive. I on the other hand spent a significant amount of time thinking about ways to kill him and a number of the bullies at school. It wasn't a violent fantasy, it was more of a preparatory technique. I didn't get off on the idea of inflicting pain back, I just thought that if one day one of them went too far I'd have to kill them and do it in an expedient way that couldn't be connected to me. And that was when I was 9, 5 years before I became a complete pacifist and swore off violence completely.

    More on the subject of laws... I used to steal stuff, but only from the cookie jar and many years later the liquor cabinet. I felt the basic rule was that parents were supposed to provide for the children and so, if you really wanted something, you had to get it from your parents. If they had trouble recognizing your needs, you had to take action. Again, I didn't routinely steal cookies, not as a basic habit. But if the need for sugar was large enough, I did all I could to get cookies. The same was true for comic books. My brother had them and had banned me from his collection. So... I devised a technique by which I could read stuff in his room while he was away and have time to put the comic book back in its place and get away from his room in the time it took him to close the garage door which was the first audible hint of his coming home and opening the front door by which time he could hear that I was running and something strange was happening. I don't think he caught on to what I was doing. Anyway, I didn't habitually read all of his collection, I didn't think I had a right to do that. Rather there was one particular large comic collection book that was so pretty I had to immerse myself in it time and again. I felt an overriding need and did what I felt I had to do to fulfill it. This attitude of "by any means possible" is pretty darn typical of the ESTj. My brother OTOH didn't really have a particular reason to not allow me to read the comics in the first place. I didn't cause them any harm when I read them in secret and he never noticed it. He just felt he should act strongly in the subject or something like that.

    Another thing about me and my brother... In ethical subjects... While he was usually a prick, he would randomly do something kind of nice. He could just for no good reason give me a small gift or invite me to play something or similar. I never did that kind of a thing. I sometimes enjoyed that, but other times I was disgusted by it, it felt like he was trying to write off all the shitty things he did by throwing a bone once a year or something.

    To sum some things up.
    ESTp do things in a sweeping, large scale manner.
    ESTp are systematic, proactive.
    ESTp are strictly consistent, more hierarchical.
    ESTp are more likely to do individual showy ethical actions.
    ESTp are more likely to have consistency of actions and get contradictory ideas.
    ESTp are more likely to do sweeping actions and take pride in correct ideas.
    ESTp are more likely to make sweeping decisions and take pride in correct ethical stances.

    ESTj do push energetically towards singular goals.
    ESTj are erratic, reactive.
    ESTj make individual situational power-related moves.
    ESTj are more likely to be consistently low-key ethical.
    ESTj are more likely to have consistency of ideas and do contradictory actions.
    ESTj are more likely to have sweeping ideas and take pride in correct actions.
    ESTj are more likely to make sweeping ethical stances and take pride in correct decisions.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    LSEs like to relax in a quiet, intimate way in a small group of close, understanding friends. SLEs like more chaotic, boisterous "relaxation" in a larger group of people. Or maybe their idea of relaxation is more related than related (engage in some kind of solitary creative activity or have spiritual discussions with people).

    That probably doesn't help... Each type has several different ways of "relaxing."
    It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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    Megan Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:13 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    On your point about your cheating, I have heard ESTjs and others say similar things about their cheating being due to unfairness. If something in my opinion is unfair then I try and remedy the unfairness, I do not consider cheating an ethical option for dealing with unfairness. I really quite far from perfect as I am human and all but I deeply abhor situational ethics/honesty.
    Great, good luck with remedying all of the unfairness in life.


    FDG Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:54 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote:
    Specially how ESTp's will do anything to get what they want depending on their desperateness. However, he forgot to say that they discuss ways on how to cheat before an exam. A cheating ESTj is hard to come by...



    I don't think it's type related, it's a matter of maturity. Ehm, Megan, maybe let's not turn it in an accusation of ESTjs...?

    Quote:
    I have cheated in certain situations where I think that the class was unfair and I did not want to settle for a poor grade.


    Lol. What a crappy self justification. If a class is hard, either you study more or get a poor grade.

    You are assuming that my classes really weren't unfair and that I'm just make up an excuse to cheat. Well, that's wrong. A class that's unfair to me has the following:
    a professor that doesn't teach anything well, the material on the tests are not given in the lectures, the professor doesn't know what he's talking about, the grading system is messed up.

    If a class is hard, either you study more or get a poor grade.
    I don't like being forced to study harder for a class that will have no effect in my future, or if it's something that I'm not interested in.

    Well, I'm done with this thread.

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    I'm answering this under the impression that I'm an ESTj; based on my perceived understanding of socionics and the opinions of other people reinforcing my views that I'm not completely delusional in my self-typing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    I do know some ESTj's that are not into drinking
    .
    I guess there must be some, I haven't met one such one yet though.
    This is partially true, I drank at social events for the sole purpose of cutting loose. I never drank that often to begin with though, but the last time I drank I blacked out. So I can relate to that as well. After experiencing alcohol poisoning for the first time (and having my friends gf show me a recording of me acting like a drunk), I lost what little interest I had in drinking. I've been repulsed by alcohol for almost 2 years now. That isn't to say that I'm never going to enjoy a glass of wine, I just haven't felt like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    I think that drinking in excess is not type related, since we all are susceptible to addictions
    .

    Really? I do not think we are all susceptible to addictions. Some people are, others aren't.
    I've never had problems with addictions of any kind, not unless you count working out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Specially how ESTp's will do anything to get what they want depending on their desperateness. However, he forgot to say that they discuss ways on how to cheat before an exam. A cheating ESTj is hard to come by...
    That is totally not true. I do not at all think cheating ESTjs are hard to come by in the least, ESTj seem to need and appreciate moral guidance IME. I think many of them actually do like cheating (it satisfies their Te desires to get things done quicker) and because of remarkably poor they think they will never ever be caught and just continue until they do get caught. The surest example of an ESTj I have dealt with cheated and fabricated evidence for the research he was doing. This was medical research in the field of neurophysiology and the impact of certain drugs. He was taken to court by the university he was working with as his fraud had such far reaching implications on people's life; I would post a link here to his picture, the case and everything but that would not be fair to him. He has paid dearly for his lies because he is now at a total career dead end. He still behaves as if he is some great big caregiver/helper and totally seem not to grasp the lack of ethics and impact his deception could have had on the life of others he thinks he cares for.
    The last time I cheated was in 1998, 6th period Social Studies. I was curious, if I could see myself doing that I would've laughed my ass off. I might as well have just stood up and stolen the next kids paper, I was literally just staring at his paper the whole time.

    That being said, I've incriminated myself on more than one occasion where I didn't have to, for the sole purpose of being honest. It doesn't matter if it's a big or small issue. I don't like lying. I'm terrible at it. I know it, and anyone that knows me, knows it.

    Why would someone who enjoys cheating want and appreciate moral guidance? Isn't that a logical fallacy?

    ESTjs are supposed to like cheating? Well, I don't like cheating. I go out of my way to try and be what I think is a good person, and one of my biggest fears is that I'm not a good person, I'm just stopping myself from being a bad one. The thought of being like the scumbags I hate disgusts me. So this means that either, A: I'm not an ESTj, or B: You're full of shit. I have more evidence pointing towards me being an ESTj.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    On a side note, one thing I have noticed is that if you do something that took too short of a time in a LSE's view, they think that you cheated somehow.
    That is because they(not all of them) sometimes shorten things by cheating and tend to imagine that others have done the same when they finish things quickly..they seem to be especially suspicious of / in this regard.
    Bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    I may prefer dealing with ESTjs over ESTps but that is not because ESTjs are ethically superior, though some ESTjs can do a darn good job of seeming that way to the outside world.
    Really? So you prefer dealing with cheats? That's your ideal dual?

    I must say that's quite of bit of information for you to pull out of such a small hole. Aren't you sore? Is there some sort of refractionary period after you access your treasure chest of information? Or have you been accessing it so often that you don't even feel it anymore? Well, at least no one can ever accuse you of being afraid to get your hands dirty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    Great, good luck with remedying all of the unfairness in life.
    You have missed my point. It is not about remedying all unfairness in life. I honestly just do not believe that cheating is a good option for dealing with unfairness.

    I don't think it's type related, it's a matter of maturity. Ehm, Megan, maybe let's not turn it in an accusation of ESTjs...?
    This is not an accusation against ESTjs, it is really not personal and I may say as well that there are ESTjs as well as ESTps who are not self justifying cheaters. However, when it is said here that a cheating ESTj is hard to come by I have to disagree because I do honestly believe that cheating ESTjs are not hard to come by. Sereno here seems to believe that cheating is permissable when there is some unfairness; reading what she has written does sound exactly like the rationale dishonest, passive agressive ESTjs often give as the reasons for their cheating too. Only sometimes others just think the unfairness line is just an excuse to protect their own butts rather than directly dealing with their failings and the lack of perfection which everyone else has. To try and identify ESTps vs ESTjs by saying the latter is just that much more non-cheating than the former is just not true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    I have cheated in certain situations where I think that the class was unfair and I did not want to settle for a poor grade.
    If it is ok for you and what you believe to be ethical then fine. That is not ok for me. You are not the only socionics INFj with this atitude to cheating and this only serves to compound the conflict with ESTps. ESTps notice everything including what may be seen as double standards in ethics when things get difficult or "unfair". They do not wish to have their own ethics questioned by people who have what may be seen as questionable ethics under pressure and "unfairness"...indeed they react very badly to it.


    What a crappy self justification. If a class is hard, either you study more or get a poor grade.
    I agree, this is seriously what I think and there are also other ways to deal with such difficulties without resorting to cheating and dishonesty. Every person always have what they believe to be a good sound reason for doing certain questionable things.



    You are assuming that my classes really weren't unfair and that I'm just make up an excuse to cheat. Well, that's wrong. A class that's unfair to me has the following:
    a professor that doesn't teach anything well, the material on the tests are not given in the lectures, the professor doesn't know what he's talking about, the grading system is messed up.
    Sereno that sounds like yet more self-justification to me. Maybe you just did not have what it took to deal with those classes bottom-line.


    If a class is hard, either you study more or get a poor grade.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    I don't like being forced to study harder for a class that will have no effect in my future, or if it's something that I'm not interested in.
    Again, it is absolutely remarkably how much you sound like a couple ESTjs I know of, like you guys are psychic twins or something. The same sort of efficiency based backwards justification for cheating is exactly the way many ESTjs justify their cheating and why ESTj cheats are very common in my experience. Their moral high ground is always that someone else or something else was responsible for making them cheat rather than looking to themselves for the reasons for their behavior.
    Socionics: XNFx
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    I've never had problems with addictions of any kind, not unless you count working out.
    I am not sure where he got the idea that we are all prone to addictions. I have never had any addictions of any kind either and there are many other such people.



    The last time I cheated was in 1998, 6th period Social Studies. I was curious, if I could see myself doing that I would've laughed my ass off. I might as well have just stood up and stolen the next kids paper, I was literally just staring at his paper the whole time.

    That being said, I've incriminated myself on more than one occasion where I didn't have to, for the sole purpose of being honest. It doesn't matter if it's a big or small issue. I don't like lying. I'm terrible at it. I know it, and anyone that knows me, knows it.
    I imagine that there are a great many honest ESTjs, it is unlikely that they are all prone to cheating. No where have I said here that all ESTjs are cheaters but I certainly do not believe that they are all honest or morally superior to ESTps in general.


    Why would someone who enjoys cheating want and appreciate moral guidance? Isn't that a logical fallacy?
    For illustration purposes only... some INFps like eating excessive amounts of cream cakes and burgers in the absence of an ESTp helping them with discipline/regulation. When they do find someone who helps them with self discipline they come to understand that they do actually like and appreciate the guidance on self discipline and that they live far healthier, happier and more productive lives with discipline rather than with cream cakes and burgers even though those things gave them pleasure at some point in the past. Self management then becomes better liked and far more respected than cream cakes and burgers. I hope you can see what this has in common with ESTjs and cheating/moral guidance.


    I go out of my way to try and be what I think is a good person, and one of my biggest fears is that I'm not a good person, I'm just stopping myself from being a bad one. The thought of being like the scumbags I hate disgusts me. So this means that either, A: I'm not an ESTj, or B: You're full of shit. I have more evidence pointing towards me being an ESTj.
    I do not know what evidence you have pointing towards yourself being an ESTj, In all honesty I have never taken note of your presence here before for some reason. However, I can tell you that I do not believe that all ESTjs are cheaters or dishonest therefore I do not think because you are honest and a none cheater that that rules out ESTjs as being a possible type for you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    On a side note, one thing I have noticed is that if you do something that took too short of a time in a LSE's view, they think that you cheated somehow.
    That is because they(not all of them) sometimes shorten things by cheating and tend to imagine that others have done the same when they finish things quickly..they seem to be especially suspicious of / in this regard.
    Bullshit.
    I have seen ESTjs be very competitive and suspicious of ENTjs work. This type of atitude is inkeeping with what one might expect from someone who is in a comparative relationship according to socionics. However, as reality does not appear to always support the theory then maybe you could honestly not be suspicious of certain aspects of ENTjs' work behavior assuming again that you are in fact an ESTj.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    I may prefer dealing with ESTjs over ESTps but that is not because ESTjs are ethically superior, though some ESTjs can do a darn good job of seeming that way to the outside world.
    Really? So you prefer dealing with cheats? That's your ideal dual?
    I just do not work or get along very well with ESTps personally. Even when they look at me I get the feeling they are trying to out stare/ over power/intimidate me or something and I dislike that amongst other things about them. I prefer working with ESTjs for reasons not always directly related to ethics but at the same time I must repeat that I do not think all ESTjs are cheats...just some, if faced with the choice of working with an honest ESTj or an honest ESTp most likely I would chose working with the ESTj.

    I must say that's quite of bit of information for you to pull out of such a small hole. Aren't you sore? Is there some sort of refractionary period after you access your treasure chest of information? Or have you been accessing it so often that you don't even feel it anymore? Well, at least no one can ever accuse you of being afraid to get your hands dirty.
    I am largely against forum "drama" etc seeing it as basically pointless or maybe just not suited to who I am, maybe someone else would appreciate, understand and respond to your last comment better really. At least you explained your disagreement with my position in a way that makes sense now.
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    I am largely against forum "drama" etc seeing it as basically pointless or maybe just not suited to who I am, maybe someone else would appreciate, understand and respond to your last comment better really. At least you explained your disagreement with my position in a way that makes sense now.
    Fine, you're right it is pointless.

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    This will will be the last post I will make in this thread. I really was going to ignore what you posted, but then, I don't like how you are judging my character based on a few sentences of text and in a public way.

    First of all, I am a "he."

    Secondly, I never said that everyone will be addicted to something in their life, I specifically said that they are "susceptible." Given the situation, be it from experimentation to intense emotional pain, I do believe that everyone is susceptible to becoming addicted to something that gives a quick fix. I mention experimentation because there are some drugs that apparently affect your brain in such a way that you want to take them over and over again once you try them even a few times. Also, the caffeine you find in your coffee has been linked to dependancy, or at least I've heard that many times. When I mention intense emotional pain, I mean a situation that is so painful that things that you normally would stay away from become tempting, and then when you try them, the high that it makes you feel (if it's enough) will probably make you addicted to it. Good for you if you feel that you will never become addicted to anything, and I do hope that you won't. However, I don't think that it's wise to underestimate things that have happened to other people and/or think that it will never happen to you. One of the only things that I am completely sure of is that life changes and we have to be prepared for when it does.


    This is not an accusation against ESTjs, it is really not personal and I may say as well that there are ESTjs as well as ESTps who are not self justifying cheaters. However, when it is said here that a cheating ESTj is hard to come by I have to disagree because I do honestly believe that cheating ESTjs are not hard to come by. Sereno here seems to believe that cheating is permissable when there is some unfairness; reading what she has written does sound exactly like the rationale dishonest, passive agressive ESTjs often give as the reasons for their cheating too. Only sometimes others just think the unfairness line is just an excuse to protect their own butts rather than directly dealing with their failings and the lack of perfection which everyone else has. To try and identify ESTps vs ESTjs by saying the latter is just that much more non-cheating than the former is just not true.

    Sereno wrote:
    I have cheated in certain situations where I think that the class was unfair and I did not want to settle for a poor grade.

    If it is ok for you and what you believe to be ethical then fine. That is not ok for me. You are not the only socionics INFj with this atitude to cheating and this only serves to compound the conflict with ESTps. ESTps notice everything including what may be seen as double standards in ethics when things get difficult or "unfair". They do not wish to have their own ethics questioned by people who have what may be seen as questionable ethics under pressure and "unfairness"...indeed they react very badly to it.
    I am not an ESTj if that is what you are implying. Also, I don't have the above conflict you describe with ESTp's.

    Quote:
    What a crappy self justification. If a class is hard, either you study more or get a poor grade.


    I agree, this is seriously what I think and there are also other ways to deal with such difficulties without resorting to cheating and dishonesty. Every person always have what they believe to be a good sound reason for doing certain questionable things.



    Quote:
    You are assuming that my classes really weren't unfair and that I'm just make up an excuse to cheat. Well, that's wrong. A class that's unfair to me has the following:
    a professor that doesn't teach anything well, the material on the tests are not given in the lectures, the professor doesn't know what he's talking about, the grading system is messed up.

    Sereno that sounds like yet more self-justification to me. Maybe you just did not have what it took to deal with those classes bottom-line.
    You really do have a lot of nerve in judging me. Of course, you don't know anything about me or my experiences, but I suggest that you try and think outside the box before determining others' character. I'm not into comparing people's behavior to types, but since it appears you like doing it, you do strike me as an ISFj in your posts.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    Secondly, I never said that everyone will be addicted to something in their life, I specifically said that they are "susceptible."
    And I am saying that addiction and addictive behavior is not that simple. I honestly just do not know where you have gotten the idea from that we are all susceptible to addictions. Where is the evidence? On what are you basing this idea of susceptiblity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    Given the situation, be it from experimentation to intense emotional pain, I do believe that everyone is susceptible to becoming addicted to something that gives a quick fix.
    I have said as well that some people do not use quick fixes and some others use of quick fixes does not lead to addiction. There are of course people who experiment to ease emotional pain but not all people do this and not all expirimenters are suscepible to addiction or become addicts.

    I mention experimentation because there are some drugs that apparently affect your brain in such a way that you want to take them over and over again once you try them even a few times.
    I do not know what you are basing this on. I have lived in many places and have known several people who have taken drugs for a long time. Some became addicted to it and some people did not. Then there are others who find it easier to quit their addiction than some others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    Also, the caffeine you find in your coffee has been linked to dependancy, or at least I've heard that many times. When I mention intense emotional pain, I mean a situation that is so painful that things that you normally would stay away from become tempting, and then when you try them, the high that it makes you feel (if it's enough) will probably make you addicted to it. Good for you if you feel that you will never become addicted to anything, and I do hope that you won't. However, I don't think that it's wise to underestimate things that have happened to other people and/or think that it will never happen to you. One of the only things that I am completely sure of is that life changes and we have to be prepared for when it does.
    I must admit that this is one of the rare times when I think I have totally failed to see where someone is coming from even if I disagree with them. I have not underestimated anything nor have I stated that it is impossible that I may one day suffer from an addiction, I have merely said that we are not all equally prone to addictions and some people give up on their addictions easier than some others. I personally have a thing against using sensory pleasures to "solve" problems or ease problems that are not related to a sensation issues. Example, taking drugs will not solve any of the problems I currently have. It will cause me to feel shitty and have less money and I know that so I avoid drugs even if I imagine that they might take my mind of things for a while. I generally prefer solutions to distractions when dealing with my problems. I understand that others see things differently.


    This is not an accusation against ESTjs, it is really not personal and I may say as well that there are ESTjs as well as ESTps who are not self justifying cheaters. However, when it is said here that a cheating ESTj is hard to come by I have to disagree because I do honestly believe that cheating ESTjs are not hard to come by. Sereno here seems to believe that cheating is permissable when there is some unfairness; reading what she has written does sound exactly like the rationale dishonest, passive agressive ESTjs often give as the reasons for their cheating too. Only sometimes others just think the unfairness line is just an excuse to protect their own butts rather than directly dealing with their failings and the lack of perfection which everyone else has. To try and identify ESTps vs ESTjs by saying the latter is just that much more non-cheating than the former is just not true.

    Sereno wrote:
    I have cheated in certain situations where I think that the class was unfair and I did not want to settle for a poor grade.

    If it is ok for you and what you believe to be ethical then fine. That is not ok for me. You are not the only socionics INFj with this atitude to cheating and this only serves to compound the conflict with ESTps. ESTps notice everything including what may be seen as double standards in ethics when things get difficult or "unfair". They do not wish to have their own ethics questioned by people who have what may be seen as questionable ethics under pressure and "unfairness"...indeed they react very badly to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    I am not an ESTj if that is what you are implying. Also, I don't have the above conflict you describe with ESTp's.
    How could you read the quote I bolded above and think that I am implying that you are an ESTj? I truly do not get that.

    Quote:
    What a crappy self justification. If a class is hard, either you study more or get a poor grade.


    I agree, this is seriously what I think and there are also other ways to deal with such difficulties without resorting to cheating and dishonesty. Every person always have what they believe to be a good sound reason for doing certain questionable things.



    Quote:
    You are assuming that my classes really weren't unfair and that I'm just make up an excuse to cheat. Well, that's wrong. A class that's unfair to me has the following:
    a professor that doesn't teach anything well, the material on the tests are not given in the lectures, the professor doesn't know what he's talking about, the grading system is messed up.

    Sereno that sounds like yet more self-justification to me. Maybe you just did not have what it took to deal with those classes bottom-line.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    You really do have a lot of nerve in judging me. Of course, you don't know anything about me or my experiences, but I suggest that you try and think outside the box before determining others' character. I'm not into comparing people's behavior to types, but since it appears you like doing it, you do strike me as an ISFj in your posts.
    Wow, I think you are throwing far too emotions at me at once here but I will try to clarify things a bit and the part in red was not said by me but I agree it could be a possibility. I do not know anything about you and your experiences apart from what you have put here. You have clearly stated that you think it is ok to cheat when faced with what you subjectively see as unfairness. You were the one who said you cheated. You are free to cheat as is everyone else. Other people here have said they stole stuff and what not and even manage to make it seem funny because they were not producing any complex high moral justifications for their actions, we are humans we do crap but to make some sort of show of righting some moral wrong or unfairness is what unsettles me. You cannot stop me from wondering if your cheating due to this so called "unfairness" is fully truthful or that there might not be alternative explanations for your cheating that has nothing to do with an external situation and more to do with who you are and how you view and approach matters. I am saying again that I do not see cheating as a good solution for dealing with unfairness for a number of reasons. I think injustice and unfairness can most often be dealt with without resort to cheating and possible passive agression. I am within my rights to hold this view as you are within your rights to cheat when you consider it necessary as you have stated here.

    Also I do not know where I got the impression that you were a girl, I will therefore change the reference from she to he, I consider this a minor matter than can be easily dealt with.

    Oh, If I was an ISFj (which is very unlikely) then that would be very fine with me. They do not usually have "situational ethics" and can stand behind the morals they claim to have despite difficulties and that is cool as far as I am concerned. No, I would not feel insulted by being mistaken for an ISFj at all.
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

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    Default Re: ESTj v. ESTp

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    In the spirit of the day, I thought I'd add one more topic. (I put it here in Delta, even though it probably could have gone elsewhere.)

    Would someone kindly explain to me the difference between the two? Both seem pushy, loud, and activity oriented. I know how they're theoretically different, but how would I differentiate IRL?
    estjs are backstabbing lazy control freaks, and estps are hard working and task oriented and dont want to be bothered, but can also be the life of the party while an estj have cobbs up their asses and hate themselves and take it out on everybody else by being feircely passive aggressive.

    lefty
    enfj
    4w5 p.s. i dont even know why im in this section.

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    Default Re: ESTj v. ESTp

    Quote Originally Posted by lefty
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    In the spirit of the day, I thought I'd add one more topic. (I put it here in Delta, even though it probably could have gone elsewhere.)

    Would someone kindly explain to me the difference between the two? Both seem pushy, loud, and activity oriented. I know how they're theoretically different, but how would I differentiate IRL?
    estjs are backstabbing lazy control freaks, and estps are hard working and task oriented and dont want to be bothered, but can also be the life of the party while an estj have cobbs up their asses and hate themselves and take it out on everybody else by being feircely passive aggressive.

    lefty
    enfj
    4w5 p.s. i dont even know why im in this section.
    It sounds like you were hurt by someone you see as ESTj. Obviously that is not type related.


    As for Minde's question,
    I am 1w9 LSE, and I assume these types are a little more rare then the prototypical flamboyant E8 and E3 type LSEs.
    I would not say I am pushy, just a total hardass when it actually comes to business. I try to be reasonably lenient at times, however. I am definitely not loud.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    1) Anyone stating that ESTjs are lazy in comparison with ESTps is an idiot and doesn't know a damned thing. Also anyone who says that ESTps are task oriented, doesn't know a damned thing.
    2) It's quite common to be surprised by the actions of people in one's opposing quadra. It's also common to call that backstabbing. I don't know which type is more of a backstabber... ESTp are more likely to commit constant aggression while ESTjs to commit surprising aggression. So that could be called backstabbing I guess. But it's your own foolishness to incite the wrath of an ESTj and then let him in a position where he can cause you harm. Some ESTj may in some situation carry a grudge for a long time. It's common for ESTjs to have a code of honor which stops them from doing harm but then again, it's not a necessary type trait. They might not have one. Also ... the ESTj being dynamic, is for that reason too, far more likely to show surprising changes in different situations, hence more likely to surprise someone in a negative way (ie. something perceived as a backstab). But again, it's an idiot who thinks the ESTp are more likely to be moral...
    3) It's easy to mistake an ESFj for an ESTj. Si+Fe is likely to cheat and to take the easy path. The whole point of being ESTj is to not spare trouble from oneself. They will not choose the easy path or they are not acting ESTj. But neither does taking the hard path translate to avoiding trouble by following rules in all situations. Unless the ESTj has choosen the following of those particular rules as the task itself. Anyway, the more Si and the less Te in the ESTj the more likely they are to stray in any particular way. ESTj-Si are quite different from ESTj-Te.
    4) AUT0: Appreciating ethical advice does not make oneself ethical. The socionical explanation is that we're strong in Te and Si and our self-worth hangs on the success of those functions. We appreciate ethical advice in comparison to hating logical advice. That does not make us an ethical type. Of course... socionically ethical is way different from the meaning of the real-life word ethical. And that kind of ethics may, or may not be apparent in an individual ESTj according to the particular way their Te has formed.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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