Ne: A Deeper Look

[Gilly]

I started a thread like this once before, but it never really got off the ground, so I'm going to try again.

I'd like to examine and discuss Ne in depth. What are people's thoughts on this function? What do you know about it? What throws the switch in your head that says "This guy is an Ne type" when you meet one?

I see Ne as a function of the desire to gauge potential in everything that one sees. That's about all I can think of right now.

[drake]

Well... You can't easily detect an NE guy/girl. Know two things about sociotype, say ENTP:
1) It's an HIERARCHY, and hierarchies are structures. A hierarchy doesn't describe one's actual behavior.
2) A human is a very complex system. Noone knows if socionics is actualy true or what does it actualy describe.

One can easily say for someone: "Oh... look, that guy is ENTP." Other may ask: "How can you be sure?" And the response is: "I don't know. I just
know."

Now, from my humble experience at college (4th year bachelor of science in information technology and organization), I can say that there are many ENTPs around me. How can I be sure? Well, I observe them and analyse their behaviour:
1. ENTP persons are talkative.
2. They talk mostly about ideas and chit-chat, but do little of what they say.
3. Their ideas are sometimes radical.
4. The logic in their ideas is when they start comparing things, for instance:
"Wild apples are better than ordianary ones because they have a ..., ... and .... Ordinary ones don't have ... and therefore they taste little worse than wild ones. However, wild nuts are far better because ... and ... ."
5. If you read an example statement in 4) you can see I marked words "better than", "because", "..., ... and ...", "therefore". These words are mostly typical of those who compare things. But notice one other thing, the statement is quite long and at the end of the statement, this person starts talking about wild nuts. That's another characteristic of ENTPs, they include more and more entities when they're comparing. In the end, they have many entities and they are vaguely compared. Also, there are relational errors.
6. Long and slim figures are characteristic of ENTPs. That's taken from ENTP description and I can say that it's mostly true for most people that I think they have ENTP sociotype.
7. ENTP people around me in college talk about various themes that aren't in their own area of learning, that is Information science. They talk about politics... but very little about business.

That's about what I've seen.

And sorry for bad english.

[Joy]

The ENTps who talk constantly are just stupid emotionally.

[drake]

Here's my little, but vague analysis of ENTP profile posted at socionics.com:

"ENTps normally have a long, slim figure. Other parts of the body are also stretched, especially the legs and fingers. They often have rounded shoulders. " - true for most of those, including myself, that I consider to be ENTPs. However, there are exceptions. There's a shorty with ENTP personality. So, I don't find this true in few cases.

"Sometimes ENTps have a characteristic inwardly sloping chin." Notice the 'sometimes'...

"Because of their particular physical structure their clothes always seem to fit pretty badly, often slipping down and hanging off them in an unflattering manner." - For most of people I've seen, including me, yes... It is true.

"Their buttons also seem to have a habit of falling off." No comment

"ENTps usually have a distant, far away look in their eyes and it often seems as though they are paying little attention to what is going on." Somehow true... I'm always like that when I have an idea. Most people, for those I think they're ENTP, are like that. There is a waiter which fits this description, including all the things mentioned above.

During conversation ENTps like to play with objects, like a pen for example, often accidentally breaking it. - Not exactly. Some girls that are ENTP are calmer and don't do that... Hmm, maybe they get laid more .

They may gesticulate when passionately telling a story. Most people do that, so it's not very true. Calmer ENTPs may not do that.

ENTps do not know how to keep the right psychological distance with people. This becomes especially noticeable during long term interaction. One day they can be friendly and the next day they can be completely opposite. True for me and the people I know longer. We change easily. Even if I know something about psychology, I'm not behaving how I should. To me, knowing psychology, is like knowing how to find a derivative of formula y=(ax+b)^7. Knowledge of psychology doesn't make me a better person. I talk about psychology, but do little. So do some ENTP people I know, but they do so with other things - like exams.

They often behave unceremoniously and can rudely butt in on others conversations. ENTps can also find it difficult to evaluate how others feel about them and therefore can make mistakes when choosing friends. Hmm, I find this correct for myself, but I see it far better to be true for some celebrities in Croatia.

ENTps like to explore everything and are usually completely unaware of how others react to this. They often propose ideas that although have great potential are completely impractical at the time. True for me and all other ENTP people I know. However, some girls aren't like that. They say naive ideas, but not so impractical. I will state here something: ENTPs have religios ideas but they don't say all of them, hardly some of them. They, the people I talked to, may say very easy unordinary things about gods and organized religion... (Just my perception.)

As usual, they soon forget about that idea and generate a new one, which has no less potential and originality but has no logical connection with the previous. True, that's because if we read much data, then we can visualize much and say almost anything, compare the uncomparable, connect the things that can't be connected in reality, for instance: What do you get if I take your left eye and put it in piggs but? -> An ugly imagined scene. Now, this ain't stupid... Consider this statement of connecting your left eye and piggs but. These are two objects, to me it's almost the same what objects I connect, disassemble, change, compare, whatever. I feel nothing.

ENTps pay little or no respect to their past achievements. They hardly ever admit when they are at fault. Even if they apologise formally they usually continue to behave the same as before. I think that my past achievements are just pictures like watching a movie. But, if I would really do something with passion and really want it, then I would relate to it quite differently. I don't know about other ENTP people how they relate to their past achievements.

[drake]

"ENTps are interested in and talk about everything that is new and unusual even if it is not in their main field of knowledge." True for some people I know and me. Those with more experience are more restrained and logical, so they don't reveal so much. By reading something, I can comment the way I like, but infact, it's shallow understanding without experience.

" It is as if they are magnetised by all brand new theories and are fascinated by all phenomena that can not be explained with logic or reason, for example: ESP, telekinesis and UFO's. They cannot logically explain their ideas as they are always intuitive and vague." True for me, however, I'm more restrained... Alas, sometimes I just go to the library and look at various books. I pick one, like politics (Chomsky), or sociology, and read a half of chapter... It's really a stupid habbit. I tend to break it, but I hunger for knowledge. I just can't help it. People I know are
also like that.

Most people cannot fully comprehend their concepts, they simply believe or do not believe. There is an ISTP colleague at college, which doesn't understand when I'm trying to explain my vision. I just have to show him on an object what I mean. Ideas of other ENTP colleagues I can understand, but vaguely.

The main peculiarity of ENTps behaviour is an incredible absent-mindedness. As I stated before, it sometimes is like that, sometimes isn't. When I'm listening, it isn't true. For other ENTP people I know it's also sometimes true. But hey, ISTPs are also daydreaming, INFP people in my surrounding too, but only when ALONE.

They usually leave items where they used them and have a tendency to constantly lose smaller objects. ENTps work place and personal belongings are often kept in disarray. Not true for ENTPs. It depends how hasty a person is. And for work place and personal belongings, well, that's true for me and one professor at college... Geez, this guy had papers all around his office - on the floor, desk, window, chair... What a mess. He couldn't find the exams he was looking for when I came to see my exam result.

They invariably forget what they have already done and what they need to do. True for me, because when I drive a car to college, and on a way I have to stop at the bakery, I forget to stop because I have a vision. Sigh . What a drag, and gas waste.

[Kristiina]

ENTps have Ne accompanied by Ti, which makes them generate all these theories and all that. It's very ENTp-ish.
But there are also ENFps and with a slightly different Ne, INFjs and INTjs.

I recognize INxjs by their Se-PoLR, and by the way the understand very different aspects of the same thing. In group discussions they understand everyone and agree with almost everyone. It's kinda cool. They will rarely argue and insist that their idea/plan was the best one.

I have no idea how to recognize Ne-program, when it's accompanied by Fi. What is the common behavior between ENTps AND ENFps. (I'm also very interested)

[emeye]

Hmm, I find this correct for myself, but I see it far better to be true for some celebrities in Croatia.

Another Croatian? We are not a very common breed around Intarwebs.

BTW, your English is just fine

[drake]

However, they are quick and shrewd in day to day matters, taking advantage of every opportunity that arises. Because of this others may consider them to be crafty or shifty. True, but if I take too much work, then I'm in trouble. I watch out for this. I use some opportunities, but I neglect the important ones... Must be the weak or something.
For my friend ENTP it's also true. However, my other INTP friend is also like that. He fixes computers around and is very dynamic in the last 365 days. This statement may not describe ENTPs very well, because ESTP people, ESFP people do this too... I think that you should understand these statements as a sign of flexibility, not just as an ENTP personality trait.

The other main peculiarity of ENTps behaviour is the ability to mobilise in extreme conditions. Yeah, I'm lazy most of the times and when I have to finish something, I do it the last minute with bad quality. I do daydream and see myself as saving an entire village from a crazy river by evacuation... I'd say it's the instability between and , that is my spiritual and physical self.

They also like to give people advice on how to extricate themselves from difficult entanglements, often proposing the most radical solutions. Yeah, that's right. I do it, my friend does it. But we only talk and generate impractical ideas. It's easy to say: "Hey, you're addicted to smoking. Quit it by chewing bubble gum." or :"Hey, you're addicted to masturbation. Quit it by getting a good f**k for longer period of time." PPPPPP But to do it, nooo!

If ENTps are not interested in a particular job, they try to leave it until the last moment. Then in very short period of time they can complete all awaiting jobs, but of course the quality suffers. This is an axiomatic statement, if and only if one can prove that it doesn't relate to ENFP, ESTP, ESFP people.

One more peculiarity is the element of chaos and destruction that ENTps bring to every field of their activity. Well, yes in theory. I never done it in practice, although I dream of sending the entire college to hell because they have a bad organizational structure, bad program and bad assistants without much work experience. I constantly rebel within myself against the college where I'm studying.

This is especially noticeable in well established institutions where strong discipline is commonplace. However, they implement this chaotic element creatively, generating reform from the destruction. Because of this quality ENTps often become leaders. Hmm, I just don't know.

Well, this is it. I tried to give my own comments to ENTP descriptions. I don't know how will you comment on all this, but I hope it will help you in your sociotyping others.

[drake]

ENTps have Ne accompanied by Ti, which makes them generate all these theories and all that. It's very ENTp-ish.
But there are also ENFps and with a slightly different Ne, INFjs and INTjs.

I recognize INxjs by their Se-PoLR, and by the way the understand very different aspects of the same thing. In group discussions they understand everyone and agree with almost everyone. It's kinda cool. They will rarely argue and insist that their idea/plan was the best one.

I have no idea how to recognize Ne-program, when it's accompanied by Fi. What is the common behavior between ENTps AND ENFps. (I'm also very interested)

INTJs and INFJs are easy to spot. ENFPs are kind jokers and very good communicators. They can level up your emotions, cool you down, or fill you with hate in seconds... That's my theory. However, I have one experience with an ENFP person (dean of college where I'm studying). I was very angry about something he didn't accept and when he explained it to me why he didn't accept, I still hadn't chilled. But, when I was leaving his room, he said to me: "Sorry, don't be angry. If I do this for you, all others will want it done to them also. Don't anger yourself." This sentence calmed me down for a few seconds and distorted my thoughts. There you go.

Structural logic is about spotting patterns... Take this order of numbers and let's say that you didn't see it ever:
1,3,7,15,31,63,...
What is the rule that numbers are generated by???? My guess is that an ENFP person can't spot the rule, only people with strong logic can. If you spot it, write down the mathematic formula. Don't look on the internet. It's very easy.

[MysticSonic]

My guess is that you're wrong, Drake. Such skills are relegated by overall ability to perceive patterns, not the ability to logically structure something.

[emeye]

Structural logic is about spotting patterns... Take this order of numbers and let's say that you didn't see it ever:
1,3,7,15,31,63,...

n_i = 2n_{i-1} + 1

but, it could also be e.g. nulls of the polynomial

(x-1)(x-3)(x-7)...

and many other things

All of those "numerical sequence" quizes are ambiguous

[anndelise]

Structural logic is about spotting patterns... Take this order of numbers and let's say that you didn't see it ever:
1,3,7,15,31,63,...
What is the rule that numbers are generated by???? My guess is that an ENFP person can't spot the rule, only people with strong logic can. If you spot it, write down the mathematic formula. Don't look on the internet. It's very easy.

An enfp would glance at the set of numbers, recognize that there is a pattern to it, but would actually have to LOOK at the numbers to see what the pattern was...assuming they were interested enough to bother.

it was too easy. if you had put something more complex in there, i'd most likely have given up after the first 4 numbers.

Though, while i can state that it follows the 2, 4, 8, 16 thing...i've never learned how to form that into one concise rule,....nor really have an interest to either as it wouldn't carry over to my personal interests.

I don't see that example as an instance of Ne, nor Ti polr. Ability/willingness to do the example falls under learned behavior/interests.

[Kristiina]

ENTps have Ne accompanied by Ti, which makes them generate all these theories and all that. It's very ENTp-ish.
But there are also ENFps and with a slightly different Ne, INFjs and INTjs.

I recognize INxjs by their Se-PoLR, and by the way the understand very different aspects of the same thing. In group discussions they understand everyone and agree with almost everyone. It's kinda cool. They will rarely argue and insist that their idea/plan was the best one.

I have no idea how to recognize Ne-program, when it's accompanied by Fi. What is the common behavior between ENTps AND ENFps. (I'm also very interested)

INTJs and INFJs are easy to spot. ENFPs are kind jokers and very good communicators. They can level up your emotions, cool you down, or fill you with hate in seconds... That's my theory. However, I have one experience with an ENFP person (dean of college where I'm studying). I was very angry about something he didn't accept and when he explained it to me why he didn't accept, I still hadn't chilled. But, when I was leaving his room, he said to me: "Sorry, don't be angry. If I do this for you, all others will want it done to them also. Don't anger yourself." This sentence calmed me down for a few seconds and distorted my thoughts. There you go.

Structural logic is about spotting patterns... Take this order of numbers and let's say that you didn't see it ever:
1,3,7,15,31,63,...
What is the rule that numbers are generated by???? My guess is that an ENFP person can't spot the rule, only people with strong logic can. If you spot it, write down the mathematic formula. Don't look on the internet. It's very easy.

I'm not going to give the answer in case someone else wants to try this. I think it's got nothing to do with strong logic, because I did it in 4 seconds, which is quite good for a person who's had 5 hours of sleep and who's been sitting at the computer for about 14 hours.
Anyone can do it.

Still, there must be something to distinguish ENFps and ENTp from the rest of the people. It's Ne. How can you recognize Ne?

[Kristiina]

Structural logic is about spotting patterns... Take this order of numbers and let's say that you didn't see it ever:
1,3,7,15,31,63,...

n_i = 2n_{i-1} + 1

but, it could also be e.g. nulls of the polynomial

(x-1)(x-3)(x-7)...

and many other things

All of those "numerical sequence" quizes are ambiguous

hahahaa.... 10 points goes to emeye for style.

[drake]

By the way, what do you Kristiina think, about people with weak , that is ESTPs and ENTPs, how would they behave? Let me first tell you a few of my experiences/perceptions:
1. There was an old man, 60 years perhaps, which lived alone in a small rented room in Zagreb. He was a bookworm and a adventurist/traveler - so he said on a documentary. He never had faculty education. And now, in his old age, he's dealing his number to any girl that walks around the town square regardless of age of the girl. You should've seen this. This guy want's to get married NOW, when he's old... Does that mean that he was a coward before and now wants to get laid because of weak ??? I ask myself.
2. I went in my short life ( I'm 22 y/o), through bad experiences when considering attraction of opposite sex. I mean, when I wanted to get a girl (during my teenage days from 13-19 years), I was always badly rejected. They didn't want me. I never had any luck. I'm not fat, it's because of pimpels PPP, perhaps... When I finaly got a girl that was crazy about me, I rejected her five times and I we came together five times. After the fifth time, we broke up for good. From that day we didn't talk and said hello to each other. I see her around the town, but we're like the worst enemies.
PPP I never said sorry or anything. And since then (3 and 1/2 years or so have passed), I hadn't had a girl. -> College duties. PPP
3. My friend ENTP is also like me, but has a bit more luck in getting more girls that me. But hey, he's worse at college. ??

Now, when I felt pain in being rejected by girls, it hurt like a FREAKIN' HELL!!!! Tell me, Kristiina, if you're ENTJ personality, what are your POLR bad experiences? Did you get offended when someone said: Hey, your skirt is from Victorian days! You have a breath as if you ate a dead rat! You barrely ever enjoy fine things in life like beautiful and colorful clothes, tasty food, nice perfumes! Do you even know how you smell? }:->
IF you get offended by this or you got offended in your past and you're truly ENTJ, then you know it HURTS! POLR is very weak!

I revealed how ENTP suffers, that is, me. Now, for ENFPs I just don't know, but I believe in one little thing:
ENFPs would handle these problems I had very easily because of their creative which is very strong. However, at intepreting laws and finding them in rows of numbers, or anywhere else, using these laws to compare things... It's a FREAKIN' HELL for them. Do you agree with this on me?

[Kristiina]

Drake, we can continue this in PMs (I'll have a bit more time tomorrow), but let's let the thread continue the topic:

I started a thread like this once before, but it never really got off the ground, so I'm going to try again.

I'd like to examine and discuss Ne in depth. What are people's thoughts on this function? What do you know about it? What throws the switch in your head that says "This guy is an Ne type" when you meet one?

I see Ne as a function of the desire to gauge potential in everything that one sees. That's about all I can think of right now.

[anndelise]

Drake, we can continue this in PMs (I'll have a bit more time tomorrow), but let's let the thread continue the topic:

*pouts*

NO!

You can start another thread about entp vs enfp...or fi polr...but dang it...i wanna read what drake says about entps. I don't know any in real life, so him and polly are the closest i can get.





*prepares to throw a hissy fit if ya'll disappear into PM*

[drake]

I'm not going to give the answer in case someone else wants to try this. I think it's got nothing to do with strong logic, because I did it in 4 seconds, which is quite good for a person who's had 5 hours of sleep and who's been sitting at the computer for about 14 hours.
Anyone can do it.

Look, I'm not a psychologist and this was a truly trivial problem. But, if there isn't a difference between ENFP people and ENTP people, I think socionics is just a bunch of cr*p. I just don't know how to prove and
differ it from and . Hmm, let's try this:

is about potential behaviour of objects. This potential is seen in an VISION which is purely a graphical thing, a sort of a film within someone's head. To visualize is to imagine how could one behave in another situation that he/she is currently percieved.

relates to vision with feelings, like hate, remorse, pity, anger... If you see a 6 year old, blue haired, in a white dress girl, crying and with a bleeding ankle, because she fell from a bike, how do you feel?
IF you're ENFP, you would probably feel sorry for the girl. Me, ENTP, I have n't got a clue how should I feel towards this kind of vision. Maybe I'd even laugh and say: "You stupid girly, why are you driving that bike if you're incompetent." ))) I would figure: she's incompetent and doesn't have enough practice so she fell. No feelings attached, but a explanation of an situation.

What do you think about this?

[Kristiina]

is about potential behaviour of objects. This potential is seen in an VISION which is purely a graphical thing, a sort of a film within someone's head. To visualize is to imagine how could one behave in another situation that he/she is currently percieved.

I have to add that this isn't only Ne. I visualize everything. I think of many things at the same time and I see them mostly as short films with emotion. I also perceive sound and all that... I can see what will probably happen. I think it's , so in this case it's just N. Not all xNxx types are visual thinkers. The latest story is that visual thinking has got nothing to do with type.

I still don't have a clue how to distinguish normal visual thinking from Ni and Ne.

[Gilly]

If you see a 6 year old, blue haired, in a white dress girl, crying and with a bleeding ankle, because she fell from a bike, how do you feel?
IF you're ENFP, you would probably feel sorry for the girl. Me, ENTP, I have n't got a clue how should I feel towards this kind of vision. Maybe I'd even laugh and say: "You stupid girly, why are you driving that bike if you're incompetent." ))) I would figure: she's incompetent and doesn't have enough practice so she fell. No feelings attached, but a explanation of an situation.

What do you think about this?

I think that I'm an ENFp, according to you. o_O

However, lack of empathy has nothing to do with type. There are just as many sociopathic feeling types as there are thinkers, I'm willing to bet (think ******). All this means is that you're a dick.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[anndelise]

I hadn't responded before because i'm not really sure just where to start...

(Drake in italics)
1. ENTP persons are talkative.
ENFp persons are talkative.

2. They talk mostly about ideas and chit-chat, but do little of what they say.
ENFps talk mostly about ideas (usually in relation to people or something they recently learned about) and chit-chat, but do little of what they say.

3. Their ideas are sometimes radical.
hmmmm...i'm not sure that an enfp's ideas are considered radical....unrealistic is probably the most often used word.

4. The logic in their ideas is when they start comparing things, for instance:
"Wild apples are better than ordianary ones because they have a ..., ... and .... Ordinary ones don't have ... and therefore they taste little worse than wild ones. However, wild nuts are far better because ... and ... ."
hmmm, comparing...i do see that in entp......not so much enfp....what is our equivalent? I'll have to think on that one. I "see" it...but i haven't a clue how to word it.


5. ...notice one other thing, the statement is quite long and at the end of the statement, this person starts talking about wild nuts. That's another characteristic of ENTPs, they include more and more entities when they're comparing. In the end, they have many entities and they are vaguely compared. Also, there are relational errors.
enfps do long statements...including more and more entities (connections) as they talk....generally has consistency errors.

(deleted 6&7 as I choose not to respond to those)

And sorry for bad english.
if only i could read/write spanish(after 6 years of classes) 1/3 as well as you read/write english!!!

[drake]

As I vaguely figure, the main difference between and is that people with can't put some object in a situation that they haven't seen before. That is, if you have and you haven't seen a flying mammoth, then you can't imagine it. I, with can, because with I alter structure of that mammoth by adding wings and voila -> a flying mammoth. I mean, I can imagine a clear blue sky and a mammoth above the ground. But I see the mammoth with wings. )

Get it? people NEVER change structure of objects, people do!

[drake]

I think that I'm an ENFp, according to you. o_O

However, lack of empathy has nothing to do with type. There are just as many sociopathic feeling types as there are thinkers, I'm willing to bet (think ******). All this means is that you're a dick.

hehe, see... I only demostrated that because of weaker , an ENTP may feel about such a situation differently or feel nothing at all or know not what to feel. I mean, an ENTP could patch the girl up, but still, do it without *remorse, pity, empathy*. Those three words are the difference between ENFP and ENTP and their feelings in this imagined situation. What... can't you see the *differences*? Differences are patterns, you know. If you see the differences, but can't really say why something IS TRUE and WHY something ISN'T, then your is your POLR and you're probably ENFP .
Hmm, this hits me. ENFPs and ENTPs can visualize the same thing, but only ENTP would try to prove it to be true or false (if this girl truly is incompetent when she's trying to ride a bike). An ENFP would say: "You're a dick! Can't you see that she's hurt?". )) Fascinating, eh?

[anndelise]

is about potential behaviour of objects. This potential is seen in an VISION which is purely a graphical thing, a sort of a film within someone's head. To visualize is to imagine how could one behave in another situation that he/she is currently percieved.

I have to add that this isn't only Ne. I visualize everything. I think of many things at the same time and I see them mostly as short films with emotion. I also perceive sound and all that... I can see what will probably happen. I think it's , so in this case it's just N. Not all xNxx types are visual thinkers. The latest story is that visual thinking has got nothing to do with type.

I still don't have a clue how to distinguish normal visual thinking from Ni and Ne.

Visualizing is not type related.

I am a visual/kinesthetic person, my descriptions are usually a combination of kinesthetics in time. Another ENFp has modified a couple of statements of mine elsewhere into auditory instances. I have also listened to various sensory preferences in ESFjs, one being more auditory, one more visual, and yet another more spatial.

[drake]

hmmm, comparing...i do see that in entp......not so much enfp....what is our equivalent? I'll have to think on that one. I "see" it...but i haven't a clue how to word it.

You've said the main thing. You can't name/define what you see, but you feel about it somehow, right? If that's true, you could just explain: "You're dick!" "You're cute!"... You wouldn't do this: "If the girl is six years old and never rode a bike before, why is she trying to do it herself alone? Having blue hair is irrelevant. The main thing is that she's incompetent and she rode a bike. If she hadn't done that, she wouldn't get hurt. Right?"

[anndelise]

What... can't you see the *differences*? Differences are patterns, you know. If you see the differences, but can't really say why something IS TRUE and WHY something ISN'T, then your is your POLR and you're probably ENFP .

Hmm, this hits me. ENFPs and ENTPs can visualize the same thing, but only ENTP would try to prove it to be true or false ...

Similarities are patterns as well.
Could it be that one difference between entp and enfp is one sees differences and the other sees similarities?

Also, you might have something there regarding the "only ENTp would try to prove it to be true or false".

[anndelise]

hmmm, comparing...i do see that in entp......not so much enfp....what is our equivalent? I'll have to think on that one. I "see" it...but i haven't a clue how to word it.

You've said the main thing. You can't name/define what you see, but you feel about it somehow, right? If that's true, you could just explain: "You're dick!" "You're cute!"... You wouldn't do this: "If the girl is six years old and never rode a bike before, why is she trying to do it herself alone? Having blue hair is irrelevant. The main thing is that she's incompetent and she rode a bike. If she hadn't done that, she wouldn't get hurt. Right?"

You're right that I wouldn't do that....cuz there could be other reasons why she fell....my mind would visualize her front tire hitting a rock, her front tire hitting a ditch, something running into her way and her trying to avoid it, or something running into her way and her hitting it, etc. All the while I'm also imagining myself running to her aid and what i'd do if her leg was broken, or her knee totally skinned up, or a gash in her head....

[anndelise]

Similarities are patterns as well.
Could it be that one difference between entp and enfp is one sees differences and the other sees similarities?

Nope...doh

one of the ways that i know that something isn't right is that i get an "ooph" feeling...which is what causes me to take another look at what caused that. This would be an example of noticing differences.

[drake]

Similarities are patterns as well.
Could it be that one difference between entp and enfp is one sees differences and the other sees similarities?

Also, you might have something there regarding the "only ENTp would try to prove it to be true or false".

YES, that's it! "only ENTp would try to prove it to be true or false". I prove the truth of my visualization with relations: smaller, greater, equals, >=, <= when considering numbers in statements. That's relational logic. You, ENFP, don't have it as strong as I do. I guess...

Considering what we see... We see the same thing and notice the same thing... say we noticed that girl getting injured driving a bike. You get feelings from various parts of your film you imagined, and sounds you heard. I get reasons why something happened. I interpret the situation objectively using REASON, LOGIC. You feel pity for the girl. I don't. I say she's incompetent. (That doesn't mean I wouldn't help her). It just means that I'm trying to figure out the reason why did she fall, and you just feel bad about that she fell.
Am I a bit right?

[anndelise]

hmmm, comparing...i do see that in entp......not so much enfp....what is our equivalent? I'll have to think on that one. I "see" it...but i haven't a clue how to word it.

You've said the main thing. You can't name/define what you see, but you feel about it somehow, right?

I agree with an enfp having difficulty naming/defining what they see, but still somehow feeling it....however that is not what i was referring to in my comment regarding comparing....we don't "do" comparing....but we do "do" something else...that is what i'll need time to figure out.

[drake]

Ugh, the road to knowledge is full of pain.

Nope...doh

one of the ways that i know that something isn't right is that i get an "ooph" feeling...which is what causes me to take another look at what caused that. This would be an example of noticing differences.

Hmm, that means just what I've been trying to say: You judge by feelings, I judge by logic and reason. You probably would get a feeling of pity for her alot faster that me. I would get an explanation why she fell a lot faster because I would generate several situations why she fell when I would see her actualy falling. Out of these several potential situations I would exclude several - 1 and therefore found a correct reason why she fell.

Doh!!! It's too hard this way... I just can't explain. You're ENFP and you relate to people fine, I'm ENTP and I suck at it .[/b]

[drake]

Relational feeling is a term describing a mental process in all sociotypes having strong with which they *compare* different feelings regarding a situation. ENFPs therefore, for example see 3 visions of a girl falling from a bike.
1. The girl fell from a bike because she ran over a rock. ENFP feels pity.
2. The girl fell from a bike because she couldn't ride it. She didn't know how. ENFP feels pity.
3. The girl fell from a bike because a fast moving car hit her. ENFP feels pity.

Hmm, try visualizing these three potential situations and say which one makes you pity the girl the most? I think that you rank visions by a *feeling strength* regarding a visualized situation. Am I correct at least a bit?

[anndelise]

Similarities are patterns as well.
Could it be that one difference between entp and enfp is one sees differences and the other sees similarities?

Also, you might have something there regarding the "only ENTp would try to prove it to be true or false".

YES, that's it! "only ENTp would try to prove it to be true or false". I prove the truth of my visualization with relations: smaller, greater, equals, >=, <= when considering numbers in statements. That's relational logic. You, ENFP, don't have it as strong as I do. I guess...

Considering what we see... We see the same thing and notice the same thing... say we noticed that girl getting injured driving a bike. You get feelings from various parts of your film you imagined, and sounds you heard. I get reasons why something happened. I interpret the situation objectively using REASON, LOGIC. You feel pity for the girl. I don't. I say she's incompetent. (That doesn't mean I wouldn't help her). It just means that I'm trying to figure out the reason why did she fall, and you just feel bad about that she fell.
Am I a bit right?

I'm having some difficulty with this....

I don't do the comparing by smaller, greater, equals to thing.
However, there are some enfps who do the better than, worse than, equal to thing.
No, I DO do the smaller, greater, equals thing....and probably even the better than, worse than, thing.....however, in most cases, it's.....irrelivant....no, not irrelivant...not all that important to me. (which of course falls into the better than thing )

I am having difficulty right now because there are more than one conversations on similar topics, and i'm having trouble sorting through them all so that i can make sense, instead of being merely reactive as i'm prone to be.

However, in this particular post, i am noticing that it's not focusing on Ne itself, but is including the judging part that comes afterwards, which is obviously different between enfp and entp.

My interest in this topic is in discovering the similarities and differences of the Ne of entp vs the Ne of enfp, if there are any. It seems that there might be, but so far, descriptions are including too much of the judging functions as well.

[drake]

See, you missed a point here. I have to compare your and my own creative functions to determine the differences. You want to find out these differences, right? and are different, but our is the same. That's what I've been trying to bring to some sense. I said before, imagine that girl... blah. blah. blah... That means our process the same thing, but our creative function - in your case and in my case tries to tell what was seen. Get it? We have to talk about creative functions because if we don't, we'll never know truly what's the difference between ENTP an ENFP.

[anndelise]

Ugh, the road to knowledge is full of pain.

Nope...doh

one of the ways that i know that something isn't right is that i get an "ooph" feeling...which is what causes me to take another look at what caused that. This would be an example of noticing differences.

Hmm, that means just what I've been trying to say: You judge by feelings, I judge by logic and reason. You probably would get a feeling of pity for her alot faster that me. I would get an explanation why she fell a lot faster because I would generate several situations why she fell when I would see her actualy falling. Out of these several potential situations I would exclude several - 1 and therefore found a correct reason why she fell.

Doh!!! It's too hard this way... I just can't explain. You're ENFP and you relate to people fine, I'm ENTP and I suck at it .[/b]

1. the feeling of "ooph" is not a feeling of pity, nor in any relation to the scenario of the little girl. It is merely a signal to me that something is not in sync. another enfp has described getting an auditory signal. I'm sure that the signal various, however, it still stems from something not being in sync, something not being...quite right....
2. I might feel empathy faster than an entp would, however, the feeling of "pity" falls into a judging function and not Ne.
3. i think that it is a possiblity that it is only an illusion that enfps relate well to people. I find myself in constant awe as well as argh in dealing with people, which is one main reason why i am constantly asking them questions about why they did x and how they felt about x, etc....i want to relate to them...but that doesn't mean that i do it well.

[drake]

My interest in this topic is in discovering the similarities and differences of the Ne of entp vs the Ne of enfp, if there are any. It seems that there might be, but so far, descriptions are including too much of the judging functions as well.

Look, in previous posts I assumed that our are the same, that they percieved that same situation. I move on to creative functions to find out the differences.
IMHO, there is no difference between in ENFP and in ENTP. It's the creative function that makes the difference. I guess...

However, there was some fuss with that ENTJ girl about and differences. I stated that people with can imagine brand new, never- seen-before-by-human-eye situations and explain them. People with can't do that, they can only imagine situations they seen before by an physical eye. Hey, ENTJ girly, what do you think?

[drake]

the feeling of "ooph" is not a feeling of pity, nor in any relation to the scenario of the little girl.

1. I'm ENTP so I don't really know the real difference between pity, remorse or your "ooph" ))))))))))))))))))))).
2. The feeling of "ooph" was ment to be in relation to the girl scenario. At least, I thought you felt that. How can you feel "ooph"? )

[drake]

I might feel empathy faster than an entp would, however, the feeling of "pity" falls into a judging function and not Ne.

The feeling of empathy also does fall into creative function as much as pity does.

i think that it is a possiblity that it is only an illusion that enfps relate well to people. I find myself in constant awe as well as argh in dealing with people, which is one main reason why i am constantly asking them questions about why they did x and how they felt about x, etc....i want to relate to them...but that doesn't mean that i do it well.

You do relate to people well, trust me. 'Relate' means to know in almost every situation if somebody hates you and why, or lies about own feelings towards you. Get it?

Now, if you're more INTUITIVE subtype, then your emotions it perception of other's emotions towards you or a third party aren't very clear! FEEL more and fell CORRECT (whatever that means)!

[anndelise]

the feeling of "ooph" is not a feeling of pity, nor in any relation to the scenario of the little girl.

1. I'm ENTP so I don't really know the real difference between pity, remorse or your "ooph" ))))))))))))))))))))).
2. The feeling of "ooph" was ment to be in relation to the girl scenario. At least, I thought you felt that. How can you feel "ooph"? )

Putting "ooph" back into context:

I wrote:
[Similarities are patterns as well.
Could it be that one difference between entp and enfp is one sees differences and the other sees similarities? ]

And then I immediately negated that with:
[Nope...doh

one of the ways that i know that something isn't right is that i get an "ooph" feeling...which is what causes me to take another look at what caused that. This would be an example of noticing differences.]

"ooph" was never in the context of the little girl.
(I can understand the confusion, however, due to us being extraverts and talking over each other..hehehe)

"ooph" was always in the context (on my part) of similarities vs differences

When you are comparing things, how do you know if your comparisons fit or don't fit? right, not right? true, not true? Surely SOMETHING draws your focus to it.