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Thread: Understanding ESTjs: stereotypes vs. actual LSEs

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    Default Understanding ESTjs: stereotypes vs. actual LSEs

    These are my particular thoughts and feelings towards ESTJs, being an INFJ myself.

    I don't know, maybe it will be helpful for some.


    Short intro:

    Though I have probably met many ESTJs in my life, there are only three that I have had meaningful contact for the purposes of this thread. Two of which are older females (a professor and my aunt), and one who is my friend (male). Though I am not usually vague when it comes to discussing other people, I will try to keep my observations as literal and objective as possible so as to avoid any misinterpretations.


    -----------------


    There are very noticeable differences between the ESTJs I know, though my prof. and aunt are very similar compared to my friend. The first two fall would fall under the logical subtype, while the other under the sensory subtype (this based on Gulenko from the socionics.org site). Like I said before, there are difference between them.

    From what I have read from people's observations, the administrative subtype seems to be the stereotypical ESTJ. A probable reason for this is the fact that they, in some way or another, will have there presence felt wherever they are. Also, they have no reservations in extraverting their qualities, making them easy to recognize. The two I know are very hyperactive, being able to sleep less hours than the usual person but still having a large amount of energy to undertake all of their many daily tasks. They specially take pride in this fact.

    Also, you will seldom see them resting while they are in the outside world. There is always something to be done at any time, even if what they do might be considered unnecessary to others. Though it may appear otherwise, they actually enjoy having a thousand things to do. I say "otherwise" because they tend to look overagitated and often mention everything they have to do as if they were complaining about it.

    It might be a coincidence, but the female logical subtype seems to be more service oriented, as in wanting to take care of people in the way that is 'supposed to be.' Since I am not too knowledgeable in socionics, I will only suspect that this is due to . For instance, if you are feeling sick, they will follow a predetermined procedure to help: tell you to sleep well, "for that condition drink this," etc. I find their concern very touching, since they will not stop until they help you, or until they consider that you do not need their help anymore. However, they do tend to exaggerate this quality at times, as if to avoid others questioning their affection level.

    Since I started to mention , there is another aspect of ESTJs that I consider to be realted to it: social hierarchy. There are other types who have an appeal to this I believe (not sure if SJs in general have it). In any case, your name and stature is important to ESTJs, because they need to treat you accordingly. Depending on your occupation, you will receive the respect you deserve. However, they will probably get upset once they see that you are not what is expected from your position.

    The ESTJ sensory subtype could not be any different. The biggest difference I can perceive is that they are more subdued in terms of hyperactiveness and they are not especially inclined to administrate/lead. Also, they are considerably more introverted. Typing my friend was difficult because he did not fit into most of the estj descriptions I read, which made me think he was an introvert instead. Actually, when ESTJs hang around me for some time they seem very relaxed for some reason. I haven't figured out why this happens yet. In any case, my friend is definitely different from the logical subtype. They seem to enjoy following more than leading. Not that they don't like it, it is just that they know the requirements of a leader, and they seem to lack the large amount of energy characteristic of the other. I might go as far to generalize that the sensory subtype has a fuller figure compared to the logical subtype.

    From what I have observed, they seem to be more aware of their hidden agenda of . They enjoy talking about societal issues, and how things have come to be. Also, they are slightly more social and emotional, and display more warmth than the logical subtype.


    In terms of duality:

    The problem that I see with INFJs and ESTJs at first is that INFJjs will be turned off by the ESTJs' seeming insensitivity, while the former will not notice INFJs in their busy lives because they are very introverted and secluded. This will happen particularly to the more introverted INFJ and the more logical ESTJ. However, I believe that the two represent a perfect duality, in terms of the contribution to each other. The more logical ESTJ with the more intuitive INFJ is probably the basis for the description given in the duality relation between both types. Definitely the objective of the first will be to take care of everything around the house (literally) while the second, besides calming, takes care of the future planning. Or course there is much more to it than that, I am only giving very brief examples of the duality.

    Being more of a logical INFJ, I can see how a sensory ESTJ could provide more of a complement in my case. To tell you the truth I don't like to write statements like that, since relationships between different types will provide unique contributions. I am simply stating that, based on its description, there is more duality. For one, I will admit that I am dominant at times, wanting things to be done the way I want. It sounds terrible, I know... Let me put it in a nicer way: I feel that I know what has to be done. This, combined with an over-the-top , makes me seem bossy to others, which I pick up easily at times. In summary, I am more dispassionate to others, which suits me well for the sensorial ESTJ. My friend is more friendly than me and is not so insensitive as what is regarded 'ESTJ behavior.' Also, he is more laid back when it comes to tasks, preferring not to have so many things to do. However, they are definitely not lazy. One thing I like is my friend helps me not to feel so much like a cold person.


    What I have found might be a reason of the comfort level between INFJs and ESTJs is that both don't expect basically anything from each other. Personally, everything that my friend does makes sense. Though, in general, ESTJs have a tendency to not think of the overall reason for doing tasks in the first place, making them sometimes do things that I feel are unnecessary.

    -------

    I will leave it like this for now, adding more throughout the thread when necessary. Yes, this is not something I usually do (leaving an openended post). Please, try to keep this thread clean by not adding unnecessary posts. Let's try to post things that might add to it, rather than just comments. If I made a mistake somewhere, please let me know.

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    I saw this thread before Arcanum but I didn't know how to respond because I wasn't sure what you were trying to say with this post. It does seem to be an accurate portrayal of estjs though.

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    I was wondering is it right that the sensory ESTj is the complement to the ethical INFj and the logical ESTj is complement to the intuitive INFj?

    if we think
    S and N are irrational
    T and F are rational

    So why would the pairs E(S)Tj -->IN(F)j and ES(T)j -->I(N)Fj would offer a greater support?

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    Pedro wrote:
    I saw this thread before Arcanum but I didn't know how to respond because I wasn't sure what you were trying to say with this post. It does seem to be an accurate portrayal of estjs though.
    I know what you mean. The thing is that I didn't want the thread to be hijacked or have empty posts. That's what I meant by 'unnecessary posts.' I didn't think that no one would be responding . About the post being accurate, I really hope so, hence the: "If I made a mistake somewhere, please let me know." There is one part of it that I'm not too happy about, so I'm going to delete as soon as I finish replying.

    gugu baba wrote:
    I was wondering is it right that the sensory ESTj is the complement to the ethical INFj and the logical ESTj is complement to the intuitive INFj?

    if we think
    S and N are irrational
    T and F are rational

    So why would the pairs E(S)Tj -->IN(F)j and ES(T)j -->I(N)Fj would offer a greater support?
    Well, I might be wrong in my impression. Let me explain my reasoning more in detail. The rational ES(T)J has an energy level which requires anchoring, if there is to be a fully complementary relationship. I could see myself living with a rational ESTJ of course, but I feel that I would be giving up certain aspects of my personality in order to provide better support, instead of it being completely natural for me.

    Among the things that I would be compromising are my level of anxiousness and desire for independance (in terms of taking care of my physical needs without being told what to do). Also, it is important for me to use and develop without feeling a little intimidated by the logical ESTJs perception of it.

    Before I forget to mention it, my would be problematic with a logical ESTJ. Actually, it really is a source of embarassment for me (that is why I will soon edit part of the original post :wink: ). A relationship without a certain amount would not be complimentary for me as well.

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    .

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    Diana,

    I hate it when that happens. I would like to hear what your impressions are though (either good or bad)... eventually, because I know that it is really annoying to write something again :wink: .

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    That happens a lot to me too. Make sure to contol + a and control + c any long post that might have timed out. Also you can alt <-- and alt --> every once in awhile to make sure that the it doesn't get timed out.

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    =)

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    Hi maizemedley, I did read your post, but I have a lot of stuff to do right now, so I'll answer it soon. Thanks for posting btw.

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    maizemedley:

    You mention that you have as base function. I doubt you would be INFp and be friends with an ESTj, so I am assuming you are ENFj, since you are beta... In summary, what is your type? hehe. I also find their time issues amusing, but at the same time, I know that it is something that causes discomfort for them (like related things for me).

    It is funny that you posted this now, since I was talking about this with my friend the other day, and this is the first time I've read it:

    To shtirlitsu is convenient the partner, who is capable not only to see global changes with time, but also to convince him to consider them, as this magnificently makes Dostoyevsky. Punctual, required, delicate and nenavyazchivyy in the contact, it constantly reminds Shtirlitsu about its most pressing matters, follows the most optimum expenditure of its time. It follows its order of day, trying so that it not would be overloaded by the work.
    I don't know what nenavyazchivyy means, but this is almost exactly what we were talking about. I didn't think my ability to organize time was a big deal to my friend. Maybe it has to do with unconscious .

    Dostoyevsky corrects the order of the day Of shtirlitsa, forces it to be counted his physical possibilities, it requires paying greater attention to its health and to leisure.
    This we talked about too... How he does not eat because of lack of time, taken from people unnecessarily asking for his help. On the other hand, my bad eating habits are due to being lazy to eat. I don't have trouble in choosing not to help people if I see that they don't really need it though. More so if my health is unnecessarily at stake.

    Fever wrote:
    @maizemedley... what site did this description come from?

    i was pretty sure i was INFJ... and i'm very rarely, if ever, punctual!

    and the ESTJ just totally turns me off! i almost went out with an ESTJ one time when this particular ESTJ asked me out, but i had to cancel that; they just seemed so boring to me that i could not bare the thought of having to be with them for that length of time!
    Maybe it has to do with subtype? I'm still figuring that out. Thanks to Expat for confusing me... In any case, I would like to read what exactly "turned you off."

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    Default ESTj stereotypes vs real ESTjs

    I've always had a stereotype of ESTjs as the kind of person who's big on getting ahead in business, a bit materialistic, the sort of person who has a very strong handshake, a little superficial, not much into understanding the technical details, more into administrative tasks, project management, etc. ...the kind of person who likes to lead meetings and shmooz and enter things into spreadsheets...and is willing to do whatever task is necessary to get ahead, no matter how boring it is.

    I'm aware this may be a totally false, idiotic stereotype. I'm just wondering people's thoughts on how the *real* ESTj compares with the stereotype.

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    My ex-ESTj boss was something like that, but I wouldn't call him superficial. He was an excellent project manager. His projects were always well-run and his clients adored him. He was easy to work for because he was well organized and had a good understanding of how long it would take me to do work for him and what specifically I'd have to do. Another project manager, for comparision, seemed to think that as soon as he'd given me work to do, the work was completed.

    He had a strong sense of family and enjoyed doing things with his wife and daughter. He had a pretty explosive temper but he and I always got along. Some people would make mistakes and try to cover up their mistakes because they were afraid he'd get angry. So long as you came clean with everything and didn't lie or try to cover mistakes up, he was really easy to work with, I thought.

    So I'd say in my experience there's some truth to the stereotype but in my opinion to put that down to being superficial isn't fair.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    That stereotype looks like a mixture of ESTj and ESTp to me.

    I, personally, can't identify ESTjs easily. It's probably because I'm still young, and the charateristics that are stereotypically assigned to ESTjs do not come out easily in school/friendship settings.
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    I know a number of ESTJs and I can say that that description is not too far off but I'd have to agree with Nicky that 'superfical' is not so accurate. ESTJs come off as superficial sometimes because of business like nature. Just below the surface is a warm but uncertain person that hopes to be appreciated. They will work harder and longer than most other types but it doesnt have to be always for material gain. Even if they are doing volunteer work they approach it with the same zeal.
    Numbers seem to carry great weight for them. Sometimes you have to direct them to things that the numbers are not telling them.

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    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Yes, I know what you mean, fever. If you were going to discuss theoretical ideas and possibilities, strange phenomena, interesting things that you've come up with -- the ESTj would be the last person you'd think to discuss this stuff with, right? They appear to be so normal, so boring, so static, so. . . unwilling to stretch their minds beyond the mundane.
    I don't totally agree with this statement, I think that an ESTJ will listen until they can relate and then turn the whole discussion to something they do know about or spin it into a story that happened to them, usually a comical one. At least, I've noticed that I do that, quite a bit actually. This of course will make you forget about what you were initially talking about in the first place...haha.
    I'm new here so I've still not learned everything about all the types and subtypes, mainly just the ESTJ type since I like reading about me and how others see "me"...lol :wink:

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    Also, you will seldom see them resting while they are in the outside world. There is always something to be done at any time, even if what they do might be considered unnecessary to others. Though it may appear otherwise, they actually enjoy having a thousand things to do. I say "otherwise" because they tend to look overagitated and often mention everything they have to do as if they were complaining about it.

    Since I started to mention , there is another aspect of ESTJs that I consider to be realted to it: social hierarchy. There are other types who have an appeal to this I believe (not sure if SJs in general have it). In any case, your name and stature is important to ESTJs, because they need to treat you accordingly. Depending on your occupation, you will receive the respect you deserve. However, they will probably get upset once they see that you are not what is expected from your position.
    hahahaha, These two comments are soooo true, along with pretty much all of your points you wrote about, I'd say from my point of view you hit the nail right on the head for an ESTJ.

    I complain a lot when I have a million things to do but I'm always the first person to start doing things and taking more and more responsiblity from day to day, I think I just do it to make sure everyone knows I'm doing so much, looking for someone to say "good job" or something...lol

    As far as me respecting people depending on their occupation:
    Here's a small story of a situation I have had.
    I went to Mcdonalds one day and the person at the counter took my order, I usually am not one to bitch about my food if an order is not totally correct but this time it was soooo wrong that I actually had to talk to the person about it. This person was in their mid 30's or so and after me telling them what was wrong and them saying well i'm sorry i forgot or something along those lines...and then getting my order wrong for a second time... I told the person behind the counter that I couldn't believe they were so ignorant and that there's a reason they are at mcdonalds and not working in a better job. (this is usually not me but i was especially pissed off that day)
    Also, at work I'm always the first person to tell my boss that I'm better suited for his job than he is and that he should let me take over and he should find a new job...lol

    just adding an estj point of view. :wink:

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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka
    Also, you will seldom see them resting while they are in the outside world. There is always something to be done at any time, even if what they do might be considered unnecessary to others. Though it may appear otherwise, they actually enjoy having a thousand things to do. I say "otherwise" because they tend to look overagitated and often mention everything they have to do as if they were complaining about it.

    Since I started to mention , there is another aspect of ESTJs that I consider to be realted to it: social hierarchy. There are other types who have an appeal to this I believe (not sure if SJs in general have it). In any case, your name and stature is important to ESTJs, because they need to treat you accordingly. Depending on your occupation, you will receive the respect you deserve. However, they will probably get upset once they see that you are not what is expected from your position.
    hahahaha, These two comments are soooo true, along with pretty much all of your points you wrote about, I'd say from my point of view you hit the nail right on the head for an ESTJ.

    I complain a lot when I have a million things to do but I'm always the first person to start doing things and taking more and more responsiblity from day to day, I think I just do it to make sure everyone knows I'm doing so much, looking for someone to say "good job" or something...lol
    Nothing personal against you, but I really can't stand when ESTjs behave this way! Either you take the work and shut up and do your job because you decided to, or you don't take it altoghether. No whining. I've seen this kind of behaviour from my ESTj boss, that's why my reaction.



    Also, at work I'm always the first person to tell my boss that I'm better suited for his job than he is and that he should let me take over and he should find a new job...lol

    just adding an estj point of view. :wink:
    Ehhe, this is actually a demonstration of the opposite - that you don't really take hyerarchy as granted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by cracka
    Also, you will seldom see them resting while they are in the outside world. There is always something to be done at any time, even if what they do might be considered unnecessary to others. Though it may appear otherwise, they actually enjoy having a thousand things to do. I say "otherwise" because they tend to look overagitated and often mention everything they have to do as if they were complaining about it.

    Since I started to mention , there is another aspect of ESTJs that I consider to be realted to it: social hierarchy. There are other types who have an appeal to this I believe (not sure if SJs in general have it). In any case, your name and stature is important to ESTJs, because they need to treat you accordingly. Depending on your occupation, you will receive the respect you deserve. However, they will probably get upset once they see that you are not what is expected from your position.
    hahahaha, These two comments are soooo true, along with pretty much all of your points you wrote about, I'd say from my point of view you hit the nail right on the head for an ESTJ.

    I complain a lot when I have a million things to do but I'm always the first person to start doing things and taking more and more responsiblity from day to day, I think I just do it to make sure everyone knows I'm doing so much, looking for someone to say "good job" or something...lol
    Nothing personal against you, but I really can't stand when ESTjs behave this way! Either you take the work and shut up and do your job because you decided to, or you don't take it altoghether. No whining. I've seen this kind of behaviour from my ESTj boss, that's why my reaction.

    Also, at work I'm always the first person to tell my boss that I'm better suited for his job than he is and that he should let me take over and he should find a new job...lol

    just adding an estj point of view. :wink:
    Ehhe, this is actually a demonstration of the opposite - that you don't really take hyerarchy as granted.
    no hard feelings at all, it's my personality i guess...hahaha

    as far as the not taking the hyerarchy as granted...i put the "...LOL" in there to say that with sarcasm... Although I know i'll be there at some point I don't really wish to be my supervisor or have his job yet...

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    So Cracka, have you ever met, been friends with, lover or SO to an INFJ and if so what was that like? I hope youre still around. I havent heard from you in a while. :wink:

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz
    So Cracka, have you ever met, been friends with, lover or SO to an INFJ and if so what was that like? I hope youre still around. I havent heard from you in a while. :wink:
    I have dated one person that I would type as an INFJ and it was one of the better relationships that I've had but it got cut short since I found employment on one side of the country the same week as she got accepted into college and we just called it quits, to this day she's probably still the only person I can say I've dated that I'd ever marry...lol I also have a buddy that i have pretty much typed as an INFJ and he's probably one of my favorite people to hang out with. Since i'm still new to this and haven't really learned that much about it I'm still not exact on most other friends and what they are, I pretty much just read what INFJ's should be like and thought about people I know or knew in the past that woulda fit that and how I do/did associate with them.
    As far as being around, I'm still here but since there's no topics of ESTJ's then I'm not as inclined to post since for the most part i'm still new to socionics and I'm not really one to post on things I don't know much about. :wink: I usually just look for something funny to post in the topics I don't know anything about... I think that's what keeps me here...
    Also, I will be driving across the country the next 3 days so I wont be replying to anything here til then, so in a sense I'm not here, at least for a little bit.

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    Cross country trip. Thats awsome. Ive been wanting to drive cross country for awhile. I suggest you take a northern or southern route because once I took the train cross country and there is nothing, and I mean nothing, in the middle. Its like being on the moon.
    I had an INFJ girlfriend in highschool. She was very sweet and I still think about her from time to time. She moved away with her family to Missouri and eventually married and ESTJ. I hope she is very happy. She seemed to be so but I havent spoken with her in some time.
    My brother in-law is ESTJ and my sister is INFP. The get along OK but it hasnt been easy let me tell you. I like him but I think they both could have done better (as in different) for themselves.

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    I just noticed this thread... and seriously, ESTjs have to be the easiest of all types to understand...
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I just noticed this thread... and seriously, ESTjs have to be the easiest of all types to understand...
    Yeah? Why's that?
    I would tend to agree.

    Te+ sensing preference it's the motivation IMHO.

    Te is (usually) the easiest function to understand for most types. Sensing preference makes them be anchored to factual, observable knowledge.
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    yeah, and they're so easy to read. their motives are simple and/or generally logical.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    yeah, and they're so easy to read. their motives are simple and/or generally logical.
    ahh yes... this seems to be one of the major distinctions between and ... -base is completely irrational, thus unpredictable, and completely enigmatic to anyone else who isn't us (it seems).
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


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    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    yeah, and they're so easy to read. their motives are simple and/or generally logical.
    ahh yes... this seems to be one of the major distinctions between and ... -base is completely irrational, thus unpredictable, and completely enigmatic to anyone else who isn't us (it seems).
    Never had much trouble understanding ISTPs either!
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz
    Cross country trip. Thats awsome. Ive been wanting to drive cross country for awhile. I suggest you take a northern or southern route because once I took the train cross country and there is nothing, and I mean nothing, in the middle. Its like being on the moon.
    Just because it's been brought up here and I don't feel the need to start a new thread about it... I drove to Tennessee from Oregon to visit my family for a month. It was nice not having to work for an entire month... I'm at work again today though. ah well, i was ready for vacation to be over, i was actually kinda bored while there. I'm not used to the whole small town living anymore since I've lived in Phoenix and now portland where there always seems to be something going on, vs. my home town where the biggest thing to happen in a week is someone hit a cow and bent the bumper on their dodge or who's name was in the newspaper for going to jail for public intoxication...lol
    As far as the trip, I went through 10 states: Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri, Illinois, Kentucky, and Tennessee. I may have touched Kansas while driving through Kansas City but I'm not sure about that...lol I've actually been to all but 7 states and hope to one of these days be able to see them all, I just think that'd be cool, or somethin. I've actually driven across the country quite a few times when living in AZ because I like to see my family, I do go by plane every once in a while but it's always nice to have my car when i'm home, although gas prices did suck for this trip...bleh. I do tend to drive a bit faster than most so I'm sure that didn't help with saving gas. There's some REALLY LONG straight roads in Wyoming... I did 139mph at one point there...lol definitely the fastest I myself had ever driven a car, and no there were absolutely no other cars around at the time.
    After driving thru the midwest I find myself wondering exactly what would make a person move to a place where there's nothing but a truck stop in the middle of nowhere...literally, 50 miles each way and a truck stop in the middle....wtf...

    ok, i'm done and i'm sorry for taking this off subject but I just felt like typing...lol

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    Cracka wrote:
    Also, at work I'm always the first person to tell my boss that I'm better suited for his job than he is and that he should let me take over and he should find a new job...lol

    just adding an estj point of view. :wink:
    I am surprised that your boss has not fired you for talking to him like that. Maybe there was more to the situation, but if I were leading a group of people and somebody talked to me like that, I would opt to fire him/her on the spot out of disrespect.

    In any case Cracka, first of all, you are a human individual, NOT simply an "ESTj," making it normal to act like an asshole since everyone who follows the same type does it.

    I don't think this site is healthy for the mind, and that is why I left it. The only thing I've found here is that it creates an addiction to underestimating the complexity of the human psychology by typing people found in real life. I visited here recently to see if it was still running and to see if anything new had come up. There is no source of information seeping into the site, making it appear as the people here are trying to squeeze a dry lemon for juice. Only interpretations of "facts" can be found here, for no apparent reason other than entertainment or a political agenda (one that desires to artificially get along with everybody). There is no proof that any of the information here is true. The only thing that I am certain of, is that it promotes complacency, which in turn, results in a sense of collective consciousness, where members of the same type obtain an identity by following a common behavior found in such a type.

    This site has become a place for desperation, resulting in promoting different types of addictive behavior which I consider to be socially damaging.

    I think you would be susceptible to manipulation by staying here. There might be truth in that there are compatible people which one might call duals. I think you will have a particular problem in accepting potentially damaging views in this site if you are used to validating information due to the consensus of the mass multitude. This will damage your relation to people who would be referred to as your 'dual,' since they precisely do not follow the norm in terms of the behavior of the rest of the world. I seriously doubt that a woman, who is your dual, would find it at all attractive that you enjoy going to Hooters, or being with a man who does not place value on chastity. If I require this in a woman who I would marry, you can only imagine how much so this would be heightened for a woman falling in my "type."

    Not to mention that there is sense of complacency towards the typical behavior of a certain type, which then makes it acceptable, and less is expected from you. The collective consciousness promoted in this site is disturbing. Complacency and stagnancy cause a depressing environment to me, which I have to avoid.

    There is no sense of religion, since it is considered to be unethical to discuss such things because not everyone shares the same view. Promotes co-existence which under a normal circumstance (involving physical contact) would never occur, and for a good reason. There are different dimensions to a person, which are not enforced in this site, such as the religious, cultural, and emotional aspects. There are definitely some things that you would not want to discuss to certain people, which in real life you would discern more readily. It appears that freedom of speech here overrides all sense of ethics, sheltering people who "speak their minds" and disturb others. Inadvertently defending the very thing I detest from humanity: innate ignorance. There is no pressure to deliver factual information, or at least to demonstrate an interest, because it is apparently more important to allow people to express themselves, even if doing so might cause confusion to the rest.


    Also, one is inadvertently in contact with people who are not in-tune to your ideology and values. It really disgusts me how sexual topics are discussed here in such a detached manner, and with no discretion towards those who want to keep to their own business without having to know all the deviant sexual behaviors. The fact that people of all ages have access to this site with similar discussions is just disturbing.

    My intention is not to lecture, since I am particularly humble in terms of knowing what might be good or bad for someone. This is only to those who feel that they share in some way my thoughts, belief, and opinions towards certain things. I hope people do not take socionics or any other scientific theories as being above religion and faith, because I assure you that it is not. I guess you would need to experience a certain level of humility to recognize this fact, which might only come from enduring substantial emotional pain and suffering.

    In exactly three days I will disable my account for good. Rather, ask the moderator if he can do so. If there is something in particular anyone would like to know concerning this thread's topic, or anything else, let me know. I would rather not post a lengthy continuation I had written for this thread some time ago due to its negative content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanum
    This site has become a place for desperation, resulting in promoting different types of addictive behavior which I consider to be socially damaging.
    This site has a habit of becoming seriously addictive...
    Sometimes addictions can serve a useful function though. Perfection is not possible for humans and people resort to different coping mechanisms. Some are less harmful than others.

    I think you would be susceptible to manipulation by staying here. There might be truth in that there are compatible people which one might call duals. I think you will have a particular problem in accepting potentially damaging views in this site if you are used to validating information due to the consensus of the mass multitude. This will damage your relation to people who would be referred to as your 'dual,' since they precisely do not follow the norm in terms of the behavior of the rest of the world. I seriously doubt that a woman, who is your dual, would find it at all attractive that you enjoy going to Hooters, or being with a man who does not place value on chastity. If I require this in a woman who I would marry, you can only imagine how much so this would be heightened for a woman falling in my "type."
    Duality is a hypothesis that seems to make more sense in some cases than in others. There are countless other factors that often play far a greater role. It is good to remember this.

    Not to mention that there is sense of complacency towards the typical behavior of a certain type, which then makes it acceptable, and less is expected from you. The collective consciousness promoted in this site is disturbing. Complacency and stagnancy cause a depressing environment to me, which I have to avoid.
    I think you could argue though that it can be relieving to discover that there are people who share your views and values, and you need not think of yourself as a weird freak. I would hesitate to go about defining any one model of behavior or set of values as the only socially acceptable one.

    There is no sense of religion, since it is considered to be unethical to discuss such things because not everyone shares the same view. Promotes co-existence which under a normal circumstance (involving physical contact) would never occur, and for a good reason. There are different dimensions to a person, which are not enforced in this site, such as the religious, cultural, and emotional aspects. There are definitely some things that you would not want to discuss to certain people, which in real life you would discern more readily. It appears that freedom of speech here overrides all sense of ethics, sheltering people who "speak their minds" and disturb others. Inadvertently defending the very thing I detest from humanity: innate ignorance. There is no pressure to deliver factual information, or at least to demonstrate an interest, because it is apparently more important to allow people to express themselves, even if doing so might cause confusion to the rest.

    Also, one is inadvertently in contact with people who are not in-tune to your ideology and values. It really disgusts me how sexual topics are discussed here in such a detached manner, and with no discretion towards those who want to keep to their own business without having to know all the deviant sexual behaviors. The fact that people of all ages have access to this site with similar discussions is just disturbing.

    My intention is not to lecture, since I am particularly humble in terms of knowing what might be good or bad for someone. This is only to those who feel that they share in some way my thoughts, belief, and opinions towards certain things. I hope people do not take socionics or any other scientific theories as being above religion and faith, because I assure you that it is not. I guess you would need to experience a certain level of humility to recognize this fact, which might only come from enduring substantial emotional pain and suffering.
    This site has offered practically unlimited freedom of speech. Personally I like it, but sometimes people have been offended. It is a fine line one has to walk.

    Religion is also a gift that has been given to some of us. Personally I do not think I am capable of genuine faith, and in a sense, I feel it is a loss.


    In exactly three days I will disable my account for good. Rather, ask the moderator if he can do so. If there is something in particular anyone would like to know concerning this thread's topic, or anything else, let me know. I would rather not post a lengthy continuation I had written for this thread some time ago due to its negative content.
    It was nice to hear from you. I am a moderator, but I think only metaiwan/admin can terminate your account for good. If you could send me a PM with your email address I would be grateful.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanum
    I am surprised that your boss has not fired you for talking to him like that. Maybe there was more to the situation, but if I were leading a group of people and somebody talked to me like that, I would opt to fire him/her on the spot out of disrespect.
    Just because it was brought up, There is more to the situation I spoke of: My manager, new to the company i work for, really doesn't know anything about how this place runs. Luckily for him he does have people like me that do know what's going on. I've been in the Semiconductor industry for about 6 yrs now since I got out of college at 20. I've pretty much done the same thing since starting here and do know more than pretty much anyone I can point out at my current place of business. It's not just something I've told myself, it's been pointed out by all that work with me... "Damn, you really know your shit about this stuff..." -I tend to believe them.
    When I talk to my boss the way I pointed out it was pretty much when he started and I was telling him what was expected out of him as our supervisor, I do have a sense of humor and find myself a pretty easy person to talk to, believe me, there's no way he thought I was disrespecting him in any way since we both laughed about it quite a bit when we had that discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanum
    In any case Cracka, first of all, you are a human individual, NOT simply an "ESTj," making it normal to act like an asshole since everyone who follows the same type does it.
    hahaha, this is pretty funny because if you actually knew me, or hell, even read a few of my posts... I'd like to think i'm not a typical ESTJ asshole like some I've read about. "maybe" when i'm at work, I can be an asshole but work gets done, that's what I'm there for, the thing is, I am good friends with all that I work with, I've told many many people in the past that if we have some type of disagreement at work then that's work, life outside of work really is considerably different for me. For the most part, I'm that funny fucker that everyone likes to hang out and drink with... or so i've heard from people I know. Most that know me also know that i'm one of the more caring people they've ever known, just don't take advantage of that.


    I'm sorry if you don't like this place, I didn't come here for any real purpose and i actually just like to read about people. for some reason i think it's interesting and it's one of the few forums that i'm on where I do not post a lot, personally other than an ESTJ point of view here and there and the occasional smartass remark i really don't add much here at all. but like i said, i didn't come here to get a degree and learn everything about socionics, if i pick up on a few things here and there, i'm happy.

    As far as your thoughts about what people post here, it's the internet...unless you started banning people for stuff like that then it'll always happen.
    I think you would be susceptible to manipulation by staying here. There might be truth in that there are compatible people which one might call duals. I think you will have a particular problem in accepting potentially damaging views in this site if you are used to validating information due to the consensus of the mass multitude. This will damage your relation to people who would be referred to as your 'dual,' since they precisely do not follow the norm in terms of the behavior of the rest of the world. I seriously doubt that a woman, who is your dual, would find it at all attractive that you enjoy going to Hooters, or being with a man who does not place value on chastity. If I require this in a woman who I would marry, you can only imagine how much so this would be heightened for a woman falling in my "type."
    I always wonder what people have against hooters...lol, it's a restaraunt? Hell, i know women that love going there...
    I am not here for dating advice or looking for how to find my dual, I always thought, if a female is the right one for me it'll happen, til then i'm gonna live my life. If that person can't get passed me being the person I am and thinks my past is wrong, well that sux for them. As far as me being manipulated into thinking different than I already do...I don't see that happening since i'm not really here enough.

    I dunno if your post was meant to run me off or make me just think of the place as nothing but a message board where people speak their own opinions, which is how I look at this place.

    oh, and again, i'm sorry you don't like this place, it and the people here seem ok to me, I just don't read into everything as much as you probably think i do.

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    CuriousSoul,

    I will have to agree reluctantly to the points you are raising. You might be right in what you are saying.


    Religion is also a gift that has been given to some of us. Personally I do not think I am capable of genuine faith, and in a sense, I feel it is a loss.
    Do you mean that you would not have genuine faith in a religion?


    Cracka,

    Just because it was brought up, There is more to the situation I spoke of: My manager, new to the company i work for, really doesn't know anything about how this place runs. Luckily for him he does have people like me that do know what's going on. I've been in the Semiconductor industry for about 6 yrs now since I got out of college at 20. I've pretty much done the same thing since starting here and do know more than pretty much anyone I can point out at my current place of business. It's not just something I've told myself, it's been pointed out by all that work with me... "Damn, you really know your shit about this stuff..." -I tend to believe them.
    When I talk to my boss the way I pointed out it was pretty much when he started and I was telling him what was expected out of him as our supervisor, I do have a sense of humor and find myself a pretty easy person to talk to, believe me, there's no way he thought I was disrespecting him in any way since we both laughed about it quite a bit when we had that discussion.
    I suspected there was more to it than what you mentioned initially. I take back what I said before in this case.


    hahaha, this is pretty funny because if you actually knew me, or hell, even read a few of my posts... I'd like to think i'm not a typical ESTJ asshole like some I've read about. "maybe" when i'm at work, I can be an asshole but work gets done, that's what I'm there for, the thing is, I am good friends with all that I work with, I've told many many people in the past that if we have some type of disagreement at work then that's work, life outside of work really is considerably different for me. For the most part, I'm that funny fucker that everyone likes to hang out and drink with... or so i've heard from people I know. Most that know me also know that i'm one of the more caring people they've ever known, just don't take advantage of that.
    I don't think you are an asshole because of your "type." I was referring to accepting to be a certain way due to it. To tell you the truth, I am probably the first person in this site to have initiated a positive thread of the ESTj group. I might be mistaken.

    I'm sorry if you don't like this place, I didn't come here for any real purpose and i actually just like to read about people. for some reason i think it's interesting and it's one of the few forums that i'm on where I do not post a lot, personally other than an ESTJ point of view here and there and the occasional smartass remark i really don't add much here at all. but like i said, i didn't come here to get a degree and learn everything about socionics, if i pick up on a few things here and there, i'm happy.

    As far as your thoughts about what people post here, it's the internet...unless you started banning people for stuff like that then it'll always happen.
    There is nothing to be sorry about. At the end of the day it is my own problem. To me the Internet is a source of information. At least, I believe that was its initial intention.


    I always wonder what people have against hooters...lol, it's a restaraunt? Hell, i know women that love going there...
    I am not here for dating advice or looking for how to find my dual, I always thought, if a female is the right one for me it'll happen, til then i'm gonna live my life.
    haha. Yeah, it's a restaurant that happens to have beautiful women as servers. You do make a good point in that the goal of this does not have to involve duality.


    If that person can't get passed me being the person I am and thinks my past is wrong, well that sux for them. As far as me being manipulated into thinking different than I already do...I don't see that happening since i'm not really here enough.
    It's not that simple. Past actions reflect a person's intentions and future actions. You can even tell a lot about someone based on how they refer to their past.


    I dunno if your post was meant to run me off or make me just think of the place as nothing but a message board where people speak their own opinions, which is how I look at this place.

    oh, and again, i'm sorry you don't like this place, it and the people here seem ok to me, I just don't read into everything as much as you probably think i do.
    Good to know that. No bad intentions in my post, quite the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanum
    CuriousSoul,

    I will have to agree reluctantly to the points you are raising. You might be right in what you are saying.


    Religion is also a gift that has been given to some of us. Personally I do not think I am capable of genuine faith, and in a sense, I feel it is a loss.
    Do you mean that you would not have genuine faith in a religion?
    Sorry, what I meant was that I know quite a many deeply religious people, some of them INFJs, and I appreciate their integrity, and in a way even envy the source of inner confidence their faith gives them, but I do not think it is within my powers to personally truly believe in God.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    CuriousSoul wrote:

    Sorry, what I meant was that I know quite a many deeply religious people, some of them INFJs, and I appreciate their integrity, and in a way even envy the source of inner confidence their faith gives them, but I do not think it is within my powers to personally truly believe in God.
    I don't think it has anything to do with power. Rather, it comes from admiting that one is powerless, and just surrendering. It is all about humility. I have been humbled by force, and it is definitely not an enjoyable experience. However, there is a unique sense of freedom to it.

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    Hmmm.. Im wating for my ESTJ friend right now. We are supposed to see a movie that starts at 7:15 and its 7:00 now. I just rang him and hes like im leaving my house now, i was like hmm i dont think we will make it. He is like isn't it a 15 minute drive from your house? Im like um if we speed lol

    Thank god for previews. If he wasn't my activity partner i would slap him
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanum
    I am surprised that your boss has not fired you for talking to him like that. Maybe there was more to the situation, but if I were leading a group of people and somebody talked to me like that, I would opt to fire him/her on the spot out of disrespect.
    .
    Fire someone on the spot because of the way someone was talking to you? A manifestation of PoLR, or , or both, if you are INFj.

    I'll make sure never to have someone like you for a boss, then, if I can avoid it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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