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Thread: Strength of the Hidden Agenda Function

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    Default Strength of the Hidden Agenda Function

    How strong can the hidden agenda be? I've heard that people have the hidden agenda as a on/off system, which means it can get pretty strong at times, but totally non-existent the rest of the time.

    Can a person be mistaken for having his hidden agenda in ego block because of some moments when the hidden agenda is very active?
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    Default Re: Strength of the Hidden Agenda

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Can a person be mistaken for having his hidden agenda in ego block because of some moments when the hidden agenda is very active?
    Yup, which is why people often mistake themselves for their benificiaries.
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    I'd appreciate it if people wrote about their hidden agenda, how often is it hyperactive? And how strong is it anyway?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    I'd appreciate it if people wrote about their hidden agenda, how often is it hyperactive? And how strong is it anyway?
    Oh, okay. If that's what you want, then:

    My hidden agenda ( ) isn't all that strong. I can't really explain it, other then the fact that I'm just not all that great at using it.

    It gets really hyperactive when people feed it with a whole bunch of possitive confirmation. When it does get hyperactive, I get really energetic, so I'm like a giant combo of and . When people aren't really complimenting the hidden agenda, it's almost as if it's not there, however. I guess I'm much more affected and I need my dual-seeking function a lot more than my hidden agenda..
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    My hidden agenda equates to which translates into a conflict with my POLR where for example, i don't want to let loose and enjoy myself because I might get hurt with an agenda related to health. Since these functions are SENSORY i.e. to do with the 5 senses and the environment I am somewhat shy when it comes to experiencing things through the senses and 'letting go' of the self-control i maintain to protect myself from harm. This would seem to be the main source of neurosis that i have such as any anxiety that may follow from snogging someone or sex itself because as an INTj - N comes before S hence any awkwardness and worry.

    I later came to the conclusion that getting drunk does not provide the confidence needed to get what i may want in a club/bar and later quit drinking pretty much altogether.

    Since I have a strong foresight I have a weak here-and-now ability to enjoy the present moment where I can be more concerned with my lifetime strategy rather then day-to-day logistics.

    When my IRRATIONAL Si/Se functions have been activated, a seldom seen impulsivity comes about where I can do anything* from a change in financial attitude to spend money regardless of a previous frugal attitude and say applying for jobs every day like the future (and my special insight into reality) has been suppressed.

    It's kind of like taking 'anti-future' or 'anti-outside-the-box-thinking' drugs (if such a thing existed) to force me into a here-and-now reality so that I can achieve short-term goals like getting a job even though my long-range strategy has already formed and continues to shape in the background.

    *within some rational reason.
    Remember to keep things simple and not any simpler like Einstein once said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraus
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    I'd appreciate it if people wrote about their hidden agenda, how often is it hyperactive? And how strong is it anyway?
    Oh, okay. If that's what you want, then:

    My hidden agenda ( ) isn't all that strong. I can't really explain it, other then the fact that I'm just not all that great at using it.

    It gets really hyperactive when people feed it with a whole bunch of possitive confirmation. When it does get hyperactive, I get really energetic, so I'm like a giant combo of and . When people aren't really complimenting the hidden agenda, it's almost as if it's not there, however. I guess I'm much more affected and I need my dual-seeking function a lot more than my hidden agenda..
    I didn't mean that I didn't appreciate the first post. I loved it. :wink:

    Kraus and snowyc, what you both said is pretty much how I understood the on/off system of hidden agenda.

    Me - most of the time I show no sign of Se (or Si). If it's time for decision-making, I actually prefer if the other person takes charge and tells me what needs to be done. But when something has to be done and I know it's up to me, you'll see a really determined person who could be mistaken for Se-ego.
    I can't stop myself from giving endless suggestion about how something should be done, (if it's something I've done many times) but I don't think it's Se. I don't say "do that!", I say "It's much more effective if you..." or "This is the quickest method...". I don't try to be in charge, I'm just impatient when it comes to someone using the most ineffective method.

    (ENTjs reading this - I discovered a difference in the choice of words! I don't boss people around, I keep teaching them to be more effective. Damn visual thinking is making me ignore the importance of verbal self-expression.)
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    I'm all Si when I'm depressed.

    Honestly, there really aren't any functions that aren't "strong" in me from time to time.
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    Default Just how strong is our hidden agenda?

    This question has been bugging me for a while.

    By definition, our HA is weak; that is, it's as weak as our 5th function, and probably as weak as our 3rd and 4th functions too.

    However, some (on this forum) maintain that it's actually stronger than we think, and that it will often manifest itself in our lives more often than we think, especially more so than our 5th function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    strengths on a continuous spectrum

    base
    8th
    cre
    7th
    Why 8th>7th, btw?
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    HA comes out a lot because you like it, you use it, you try to be good at it. Like with any other function you learn from experience, so the more you focus on it, the "stronger" it becomes. It's probably influenced by your environment (being around people who are strong in it/value it).
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    Now I think about it, I can see how one's eighth function is as strong as their base function. This is because they're both related to the same thing. So if you're an SLI, you're good at Se and Si, better than you are at Te and Ti, for the simple fact that you are more adept in Sensing than you are in Logic. It doesn't matter whether you're introverted or extraverted, if you're good at Fe, you're good at Fi too; in other words, you're good at Feeling. MBTT's take on this is interesting; instead of using, for example, both Ni and Ne, you use either Ni or Ne; one of these functions is simply not in your functional makeup. Say you are an ENTJ; you will not know of Ne in your makeup. Instead, you will always use your Intuition in an introverted way, because the ENTJ is simply not one to use its Intuition in the way an ENTP is, for example (who in turn doesn't ever use their Intuition in an Introverted way).

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    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit View Post
    HA comes out a lot because you like it, you use it, you try to be good at it. Like with any other function you learn from experience, so the more you focus on it, the "stronger" it becomes. It's probably influenced by your environment (being around people who are strong in it/value it).
    Yeah, but you like your 5th function more, so why should you use a function you don't like as much more than one that you do like? What I mean is this; your 6th function apparently stands out more than your 5th function, but why should this be the case if you prefer your 5th function more? Remember that the reason you crave your Dual more than your Activation partner is because you want Fe more than Ni. You see over-use of Ni as overkill, unlike Fe, which you "can't get enough of".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Now I think about it, I can see how one's eighth function is as strong as their base function. This is because they're both related to the same thing. So if you're an SLI, you're good at Se and Si, better than you are at Te and Ti, for the simple fact that you are more adept in Sensing than you are in Logic.
    That's what I thought, but I thought eighth function was related to the creative? Like, in your example, SLI's seventh would be Se and eighth would be Ti.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    That's what I thought, but I thought eighth function was related to the creative? Like, in your example, SLI's seventh would be Se and eighth would be Ti.
    Good point.

    ifmd95, how do you explain this fact?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    What I mean is this; your 6th function apparently stands out more than your 5th function, but why should this be the case if you prefer your 5th function more?
    In part because your 5th function is pitiful, while your HA is only weak.
    In part, imo, because you mainly want 5th from others, while you want to have a strong HA yourself. But maybe that's just me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    That's what I thought, but I thought eighth function was related to the creative? Like, in your example, SLI's seventh would be Se and eighth would be Ti.
    That's correct, Ezra had them mixed. The 8th is on the opposite end from the polr, like the 1st is on the opposite end from the dual seeking. If you are strong in one end, the other is weaker.
    Plus in practice you can notice it I think... I see ESXjs have a stronger Se than me, and I can see how my Si is stronger than ESXjs.
    Last edited by PotatoSpirit; 04-12-2008 at 11:17 PM. Reason: wrongness. lol at myself.
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    Also the fact that Xi and Xe have the same name doesn't mean anything imo. They were named together because they are always strong or weak together, unlike other functions, and people before socionics couldn't tell tell them apart, they thought it was the same thing only differently oriented depending on whether you are j or p.
    I know others don't agree with this (c:
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    How I *currently* view the strength of the functions (from strongest to weakest)

    This is my *subjective* understanding

    1, 7 with 1>7 only because 1 is valued and 7 isn't
    2
    8 I view 2>>8 because I don't feel like my Fi is all that great
    6 I view 6 as only slightly weaker than 8
    3 (with 6>>>>3) - the role fct is a pain in the ass
    4/5 I'm not sure which I think is weaker... they are both abysmal

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    I wasn't sure if you were talking to me, but I'll pretend you were.

    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95
    maybe what the function feels like can vary greatly from how it performs in the real world? if some functions vary in how conscious we are of them, etc.
    Probably. (Actually, most definitely) I did say it was my subjective understanding... and it is just how I feel internally about them.

    whenever i do these rankings i use words like "strength" liberally. i put everything in symbolic order, where i'm trying to be consistent with jung, augusta, etc.
    I wasn't trying to be consistent with them at all.

    unless of course if something where obviously different between the structure and all plausible definitions (plausibility in relationship to the use in the real world.) haven't quite run into that yet. not sure what i would do. look for a new personality theory? start playing poker again?
    I don't think drastic measures are called for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    This question has been bugging me for a while.

    By definition, our HA is weak; that is, it's as weak as our 5th function, and probably as weak as our 3rd and 4th functions too.

    However, some (on this forum) maintain that it's actually stronger than we think, and that it will often manifest itself in our lives more often than we think, especially more so than our 5th function.
    Our hidden agenda is not logically identical to our 5th function. They are two different concepts. A function is a function, an agenda is something entirely different. If ou 5th function is weak, that doesn't exclude the possibility that the agenda that is related to it can manifest itself strongly in our behaviour and our attitudes. I am not saying, though, that it must manifest itself strongly nor that it often does so.

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    imo, generally speaking (and assuming the person in question is healthy)...

    In order of strongest to weakest (in everyday use):

    1st
    2nd
    7th
    8th
    6th
    4th, 5th

    In order of most prominant/visible/apparent to least prominant/visible/apparent:

    1st
    2nd
    6th
    3rd, 8th
    4th, 7th, 5th
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Our hidden agenda is not logically identical to our 5th function. They are two different concepts. A function is a function, an agenda is something entirely different. If ou 5th function is weak, that doesn't exclude the possibility that the agenda that is related to it can manifest itself strongly in our behaviour and our attitudes. I am not saying, though, that it must manifest itself strongly nor that it often does so.
    HA is 6th function - they're synonyms. Even if the 6th function is not necessarily an "agenda," it's still the HA.

    I consider the functions in this order:
    1. 1,8
    2. 2,7
    3. 3,6
    4. 4,5

    with any differences between equal functions coming from strength due to use. If you get to use your valued functions, they will be stronger, but this is not necessarily the case. However, heavy use of certain functions can change this order in practice, which is the reason for subtypes and also the reason the second function often outpaces the eighth.

    PotatoSpirit answered the OP sufficiently.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    HA is 6th function - they're synonyms. Even if the 6th function is not necessarily an "agenda," it's still the HA.
    You're right. It should be the 6th function. But they are not synonyms. The hidden agenda is what the 6th functions means -- the HA is not the 6th function itself. We can express the HA in words, but we cannot express the 6th function in words in the same way. The 6th function and the HA belong to different logical dimensions. It is a category mistake to see the two terms as identical in meaning.

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    Is it possible that the Ego and the SuperEgo blocks are as strong as each other? I.e. we try to use our Ego block functions in the same way we try to avoid the use of our SuperEgo functions. Like two opposed magnets.

    I do agree though that each individual's 'healthiest' functions are their Ego block functions, and that the 'unhealthiest' functions are their SuperEgo block functions.

    The Id and SuperId are supposed to be unconscious blocks - they are more quitely expressed in our psyches. You have a basic competence in your Id functions, and so they don't really trouble you. With your SuperId functions, you 'harmonise' with others who have these functions in their Ego block, and you occasionally come into conflict with those who do not appreciate these functions - non-Socionic people are not directly aware of why they do this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    Is it possible that the Ego and the SuperEgo blocks are as strong as each other? I.e. we try to use our Ego block functions in the same way we try to avoid the use of our SuperEgo functions. Like two opposed magnets.
    In that sense, yes... but I would rather use "strong" in the sense of "what you are most competent in using" (in which case that which you avoid using is very weak). The superego is powerfully useless.



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    HA is quite strong but it's deficient because it's unconscious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    HA is quite strong but it's deficient because it's unconscious.
    So is the 5th function. So why is the 6th function strong? Especially when one's PoLR relates to their 6th function, not their 5th function, which would make logical sense (with PoLR being weaker than role function, its extraverted/introverted counterpart should be "as weak").

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    i don't think the hidden agenda is that strong, really. it's trying to compensate for the polr is what it's trying to do. so, the person tries to use it and while they may be better at that they are at their polr, it's still pretty lame.

    somebody said dual-seeking is pathetic. i'm inclined to agree.....my behavior after a night of wide-awake eyes, all night, and no sleep and emotional stress let's just say it needed a lot of be desired....

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    HA is quite strong but it's deficient because it's unconscious.
    8th function is unconscious.

    The 6th function is weak because it complements the strong 2nd function - which isn't the strongest function, so the HA isn't the weakest.

    Functions 2, 3, 6 and 7 seem pretty balanced, compared with the others.



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    My perception on the HA being the strongest of the weak is based in part on my subjective viewing of myself... It depends on the following

    1. my current theory of being IEI (which you never know, could be wrong)
    2. my current abstract understanding of what Ti, (and the other IM elements) are (which could involve some misconceptions)
    3. my current subjective concept of how well, or how often I use Ti
    compared to
    4. my current subjective concept of how well/often I use Te, Se, Si

    cross-checked with
    5. my current understanding of the HA, based on very little source material, but checked with what I have read on Model A and the 6th function

    compared also with
    6. people I know irl who I think I know their type and my observations of how they use the IM element that would be in their 6th function (note: there aren't enough people I'm going off of as examples)

    keeping in mind
    7. new information which may tell me that any of my premises or prior knowledge are incorrect
    8. I am uncertain about all of this to varying degrees
    9. I am still ignorant about certain aspects of socionics in general and/or my comprehension is incomplete (which is further delayed by my uncertainty)

    Currently, when I add all of this up... the HA seems to be the strongest weak function.

    My understanding of the HA is that help with it is appreciated, but only to a point. This differs from help with the dual-seeking function, where you can never get enough help with it, and generally always appreciate any input about it. Likewise with the PoLR... only you don't really want help with the PoLR, you just wish someone else would take care of the crap pertaining to it because you suck at it *and* hate it (I'm exaggerating a bit).

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    It makes sense that our sixth function is stronger than our fifth function because the sixth function is the function we desire the most in our duals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    It makes sense that our sixth function is stronger than our fifth function because the sixth function is the function we desire the most in our duals.
    The dual-seeking function is the fifth function...

    Stronger means you need less help.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    The dual-seeking function is the fifth function...

    Stronger means you need less help.
    You won't believe it, but that is actually what I meant to say!

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    You won't believe it, but that is actually what I meant to say!
    I believe you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit View Post
    In part because your 5th function is pitiful, while your HA is only weak.
    In part, imo, because you mainly want 5th from others, while you want to have a strong HA yourself. But maybe that's just me.
    Yeah, pretty much.

    You value both your 5th and 6th functions, in yourself and in others. But the 5th is something that you indeed mainly want from others, you are grateful when others offer you 5th function help. But the 6th function is something that we greatly value and admire in others, but we are, yes, deluded about how strong we are in it. Your dual (and illusionary partner) helps you fulfill your 6th function without making you feel you're no good in it; where other types may "overdo it" and, by trying to help you with your 6th function, making you feel annoyed or patronized or something.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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