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Thread: Plus/Minus Function Signs and Quadra Values

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Default Plus/Minus Function Signs and Quadra Values

    I've been working through in my mind how the plus and minus versions of each information element work together in practice, and I thought I'd post my thoughts so far. I make no guarantees as to the accuracy of the following list; it's still a work in progress.


    Alpha Logic: Seeking quality data (+Te) to produce a flawless logical structure (-Ti).
    Delta Logic: Eliminating logical error (-Ti) to produce quality results (+Te).

    Beta Logic: Eliminating inefficiency (-Te) to better organize things logically (+Ti).
    Gamma Logic: Logically organizing things (+Ti) to eliminate inefficiency (-Te).

    Alpha Ethics: Improving positive aspects of relationships (+Fi) to eliminate unhappiness (-Fe).
    Delta Ethics: Eliminating unhappiness (-Fe) to improve positive aspects of relationships. (-Fi).

    Beta Ethics: Eliminating negative aspects of relationships (-Fi) to maximize emotional intensity (+Fe).
    Gamma Ethics: Increasing emotional intensity (+Fe) to eliminate negative aspects of relationships (-Fi).


    Alpha Sensing: Eliminating weakness (-Se) to better pursue health and comfort (+Si).
    Beta Sensing: Pursuing health and comfort (+Si) to better eliminate weakness (-Se).

    Gamma Sensing: Eliminating discomfort and poor health (-Si) to better pursue wealth and power (+Se).
    Delta Sensing: Pursuing wealth and power (+Se) to better eliminate discomfort and poor health (-Si).

    Alpha Intuition: Avoiding negative outcomes (-Ni) to better investigate all possibilities (+Ne).
    Beta Intuition: Investigating all possibilities (+Ne) to better avoid negative outcomes (-Ni).

    Gamma Intuition: Eliminating unlikely possibilities (-Ne) to extrapolate further into the future (+Ni).
    Delta Intuition: Extrapolating into the future (+Ni) to better eliminate unlikely possibilities (-Ne).


    Any input and feedback on these would be appreciated. I'm not especially happy with the Alpha and Beta Intuition descriptions yet, in particular.
    Last edited by Krig the Viking; 03-18-2011 at 02:52 AM.
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    Alpha Sensing: suppress pressures and demands to follow your own course of satisfaction and wellbeing?

    Are these meant to be abstracted from valued/unvalued?

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Egbert Human View Post
    Alpha Sensing: suppress pressures and demands to follow your own course of satisfaction and wellbeing?

    Are these meant to be abstracted from valued/unvalued?
    Hmmm. I think I like it.

    And yes, I started with the fact that both Alpha and Delta value -Ti and +Te, and wondered how to distinguish them, if both are valued. I reasoned that if Alpha has -Ti in the Ego and +Te in the Id, then it stands to reason that alpha would use +Te primarily in service of -Ti. I then combined that with some reflections on the nature of Te and Ti which were inspired by that thread a few weeks back discussing MegaDoomer's and my types, and proceeded from there.

    So yeah, this is basically a rough draft that I'm looking for feedback on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    I'm looking for feedback
    This IMHO worthwhile opinion was expressed in the "true socionicists only" chat on efnet.org:
    You have to enjoy the obvious bias here, that only Alpha gets "Seeking quality data (+Te) to produce a flawless logical structure (-Ti)"

    whereas the others are just reversed pairs of each other more or less.
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    lol Freudian slip of "to eliminate logical error."
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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
    This IMHO worthwhile opinion was expressed in the "true socionicists only" chat on efnet.org:
    Haha, more like that was the first one I did, and I hadn't worked out a system of balancing the phrases yet. I wasn't really trying to balance them perfectly, it just ended up being easier to do that. You'll note that Beta/Gamma Ethics isn't perfectly symmetrical either.
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    The way it works is that the contrary functions anchor each other.

    Gamma Te relies on alpha Ti for "theory" of transaction, a set of rules by which transactions are expected to take place. This enables for safe transactions. Likewise, for every causal effect, there is a transaction underneath. Basic chemistry: demonstrating the transaction explains the effect. In the case of a hypothesized effect, demonstrating the math may be enough to persuade of the effect's existence -- this is the mathematical basis of science.

    As Augusta famously proclaimed "theory indicates Reinin".

    Interesting note: people can't really have confidence in these relationships before attaining "self-identity" in young adulthood, the first level of individuation. Afterward, the reconciliation between ego and id allows that the id block be moved into place behind ego block, hence Model B. See that's the thing: before you achieve the reconciliation, you can't really understand higher level concepts. You can have them explained to you, and they will seem "amazing", but you won't be able to believe in them of your own accord -- and improve upon them confidently -- UNTIL you bridge the divide between ego and id.

    Politics comes into play in that you have difficulty justifying the entire relationship when dealing with relations between superego and superid functions. You won't be able to believe in it, unless someone shows you how. This is a big factor in function "weakness", because you are left with that feeling that you lack confidence... you can't see all of what your superego block and superid block partners can, and thus they surprise you with what they say and do (and succeed where you can't!)

    One thing you've done very well Krig, is illustrate the motivations and intentions which underlie the anchoring system. That's a worthwhile accomplishment, in my view (though it seems you have more work ahead).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
    This IMHO worthwhile opinion was expressed in the "true socionicists only" chat on efnet.org:
    Well actually i felt the same way about the Delta thinking statement above. I think it rang true for me as well as the other deltas i know irl, and i'm proud of my quadra for it. There is nothing more rewarding and meaningful to me than producing quality results and seeing others produce quality results, especially when it comes to serving people.

    Delta Logic: Eliminating logical error (-Ti) to produce quality results (+Te).
    I dont see anything special about the alpha statement as being unusually flattering. so, I think you feel it's biased in a good way, because YOU are alpha and those things are important to you and make you feel proud, much like the delta statement does to me.

    I like your list Krig! The only place where either i'm not understanding it, or it falls apart sorta, is the sensing section. I didn't relate as much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    The only place where either i'm not understanding it, or it falls apart sorta, is the sensing section. I didn't relate as much.
    Me either. I wonder if that was mostly intended for Delta STs. Ironically, you'd have to pay me to be more financially ambitious.

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    Thanks for sharing these, Krig. Oh, and congratulations on reaching 2000 posts.

    I identify alot with the alpha logic, ethics, and sensing descriptions. I just want to clarify something on alpha intuition. I'm not clear on avoiding negative outcomes to better investigate all possibilities. If you're investigating all possibilities, wouldn't that by definition include both the potential positive and negative ones?

    Alpha Logic: Seeking quality data (+Te) to produce a flawless logical structure (-Ti).

    Alpha Ethics: Improving positive aspects of relationships (+Fi) to eliminate unhappiness (-Fe).

    Alpha Sensing: Eliminating weakness (-Se) to better pursue health and comfort (+Si).

    Alpha Intuition: Avoiding negative outcomes (-Ni) to better investigate all possibilities (+Ne).
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    I can see these:
    Alpha Ethics: Improving positive aspects of relationships (+Fi) to eliminate unhappiness (-Fe).
    Delta Ethics: Eliminating unhappiness (-Fe) to improve positive aspects of relationships. (-Fi).

    Beta Ethics: Eliminating negative aspects of relationships (-Fi) to maximize emotional intensity (+Fe).
    Gamma Ethics: Increasing emotional intensity (+Fe) to eliminate negative aspects of relationships (-Fi).


    Gamma Intuition: Eliminating unlikely possibilities (-Ne) to extrapolate further into the future (+Ni).
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    It all rings true for me, including the Delta Sensing category. I'd say that's really my reason for being ambitious. Though my real passion is to expand possibilities (Ne) for people (Fi).

    But I think this is true though, in a more general way:

    Pursuing wealth and power (+Se) to better eliminate discomfort and poor health (-Si)

    To me that means "having enough" which would mean not suffering.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    I dont see anything special about the alpha statement as being unusually flattering. so, I think you feel it's biased in a good way, because YOU are alpha and those things are important to you and make you feel proud, much like the delta statement does to me.
    I agree. To me, the "flawless logical structure" thing wasn't so much bragging about what Alphas are capable of, as it was describing the goal that Alphas aspire to.

    Workaholics, straytk, and jewels: I don't think most Deltas would actually phrase it the way I worded it (i.e., "wealth and power"), so that may be part of the confusion. But I have seen it in action in the Deltas I know. They tend to be very hard-working folks, who care about earning enough money to buy a good quality home, good quality cars, good quality everything. Of course, as I've been saying, Deltas view +Se as a means to an end, rather than an end in and of itself, so they tend to be less flashy and ostentatious with their wealth than, say, Gammas.

    Also, I don't know how old you guys are, but I would imagine this is something that develops a little later in Delta NFs. The value of the Super-Ego elements isn't always appreciated during the earlier stages of psycho-social development.

    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    Thanks for sharing these, Krig. Oh, and congratulations on reaching 2000 posts.
    Oh, cool! I hadn't noticed that! Thanks for pointing it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    I identify alot with the alpha logic, ethics, and sensing descriptions. I just want to clarify something on alpha intuition. I'm not clear on avoiding negative outcomes to better investigate all possibilities. If you're investigating all possibilities, wouldn't that by definition include both the potential positive and negative ones?
    Yeah, that's actually the part I wasn't really satisfied with either. I'm still trying to grasp the difference between +Ni and -Ni; I don't feel like I have a solid handle on it yet.

    I read your post and thought about it some more. If +Ni is all about extrapolating further into the future, maybe -Ni is more about eliminating unlikely extrapolations? So a Gamma NT would accept a certain amount of uncertainty in exchange for being able to extrapolate further into the future, whereas a Beta NF would be willing to extrapolate less far into the future, in exchange for being more certain about the reliability of their prediction? This would certainly fit with the goals of +Se and -Se respectively.

    Thus:
    Alpha Intuition: Avoiding unreliable extrapolations of the future (-Ni) to better investigate all possibilities (+Ne).
    Beta Intuition: Investigating all possibilities (+Ne) to better reduce uncertainty about the future (-Ni).

    Gamma Intuition: Eliminating unlikely possibilities (-Ne) to extrapolate further into the future (+Ni).
    Delta Intuition: Extrapolating into the future (+Ni) to better eliminate unlikely possibilities (-Ne).

    Obviously, Ni deals with more things than just time, just as Si deals with more things than just comfort, but certainly time is the most obvious and common application of Ni.

    Anyway, I still feel like it's not quite there yet, but I think that's better than it was.


    Looking back at all this, I'm starting to think the difference between the plus and minus versions of the elements basically comes down to quality vs. quantity. It looks like plus focuses on quantity, and minus on quality. You could reframe them thus:

    • +Ni is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable predictions) for quantity (predicting further into the future), and -Ni the reverse.
    • +Ne is willing to sacrifice quality (knowing something's actual potential) for quantity (knowing all the possible things something could be).
    • +Fi is willing to sacrifice quality (close, trustworthy relations) for quantity (extending a hand of friendship to everyone), -Fi the reverse.
    • +Fe is willing to sacrifice quality (happiness) for quantity (emotional intensity), -Fe the reverse.
    • +Si is willing to sacrifice quality (reliability of pleasurable results) for quantity (intensity of pleasurable results), -Si the reverse.
    • +Se is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable strength) for quantity (lots of wealth), -Se the reverse.
    • +Ti is willing to sacrifice quality (logical correctness) for quantity (subjecting everything to order and organization), -Ti the reverse.
    • +Te is willing to sacrifice quality (efficiency of action) for quantity (productivity of action), -Te the reverse.

    The Te one is a little counter-intuitive at first, as +Te is described as desiring to produce "quality" results, but the key is that Te is actually about the action, not the result. A quality action is efficient. Gammas focus on reducing the number of actions necessary to complete a task (efficiency). Deltas are willing to perform more actions to get the results they want (productivity).

    In general, the idea of "quantity" is a little harder to apply to the Dynamic functions than the Static ones, but I think the basic idea still works. I really like it.
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    This "wealth and power" thing needs to be resolved. It's just perpetuating the myth that Gamma is all about pomp and pride.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    This "wealth and power" thing needs to be resolved. It's just perpetuating the myth that Gamma is all about pomp and pride.
    Hmm. Like the matter of Ni and time, it seems to me that +Se is about more than just "wealth and power", but "wealth and power" is the most obvious and common example of +Se.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Hmm. Like the matter of Ni and time, it seems to me that +Se is about more than just "wealth and power", but "wealth and power" is the most obvious and common example of +Se.
    Sacrificing accuracy for consistency?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Workaholics, straytk, and jewels: I don't think most Deltas would actually phrase it the way I worded it (i.e., "wealth and power"), so that may be part of the confusion. But I have seen it in action in the Deltas I know. They tend to be very hard-working folks, who care about earning enough money to buy a good quality home, good quality cars, good quality everything.
    I need to get away from people like this as far as possible then. There's more to life than being Middle Manager-Soccer Dad with a Volvo.

    Quadra values are goofy.

    About the only wealth and power I want is warp drive and true love. Unfortunately, these are unattainable. Maybe I'll write a book about them though. Make some cash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Sacrificing accuracy for consistency?
    This.

    A good description of excessive Ti, too.

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    i notice you postulate a first-then mechanism in this thread.

    other dichotomies that have been suggested to work as first-then mechanisms:
    - Accepting/Creating
    - +/- (rather between ego block functions, i.e. first Ne, then Ti in Alpha NTs)

    it merits being aware that a similar principle is being proposed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    I agree. To me, the "flawless logical structure" thing wasn't so much bragging about what Alphas are capable of, as it was describing the goal that Alphas aspire to.

    I read your post and thought about it some more. If +Ni is all about extrapolating further into the future, maybe -Ni is more about eliminating unlikely extrapolations? So a Gamma NT would accept a certain amount of uncertainty in exchange for being able to extrapolate further into the future, whereas a Beta NF would be willing to extrapolate less far into the future, in exchange for being more certain about the reliability of their prediction? This would certainly fit with the goals of +Se and -Se respectively.

    Thus:
    Alpha Intuition: Avoiding unreliable extrapolations of the future (-Ni) to better investigate all possibilities (+Ne).
    Beta Intuition: Investigating all possibilities (+Ne) to better reduce uncertainty about the future (-Ni).

    Gamma Intuition: Eliminating unlikely possibilities (-Ne) to extrapolate further into the future (+Ni).
    Delta Intuition: Extrapolating into the future (+Ni) to better eliminate unlikely possibilities (-Ne).


    I like this better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Looking back at all this, I'm starting to think the difference between the plus and minus versions of the elements basically comes down to quality vs. quantity. It looks like plus focuses on quantity, and minus on quality. You could reframe them thus:

    • +Ni is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable predictions) for quantity (predicting further into the future), and -Ni the reverse.
    • +Ne is willing to sacrifice quality (knowing something's actual potential) for quantity (knowing all the possible things something could be).
    • +Fi is willing to sacrifice quality (close, trustworthy relations) for quantity (extending a hand of friendship to everyone), -Fi the reverse.
    • +Fe is willing to sacrifice quality (happiness) for quantity (emotional intensity), -Fe the reverse.
    • +Si is willing to sacrifice quality (reliability of pleasurable results) for quantity (intensity of pleasurable results), -Si the reverse.
    • +Se is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable strength) for quantity (lots of wealth), -Se the reverse.
    • +Ti is willing to sacrifice quality (logical correctness) for quantity (subjecting everything to order and organization), -Ti the reverse.
    • +Te is willing to sacrifice quality (efficiency of action) for quantity (productivity of action), -Te the reverse.
    The Te one is a little counter-intuitive at first, as +Te is described as desiring to produce "quality" results, but the key is that Te is actually about the action, not the result. A quality action is efficient. Gammas focus on reducing the number of actions necessary to complete a task (efficiency). Deltas are willing to perform more actions to get the results they want (productivity).

    In general, the idea of "quantity" is a little harder to apply to the Dynamic functions than the Static ones, but I think the basic idea still works. I really like it.
    Interesting idea. I never thought of it that way but it seems to work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    It all rings true for me, including the Delta Sensing category. I'd say that's really my reason for being ambitious. Though my real passion is to expand possibilities (Ne) for people (Fi).

    But I think this is true though, in a more general way:

    Pursuing wealth and power (+Se) to better eliminate discomfort and poor health (-Si)

    To me that means "having enough" which would mean not suffering.
    This is Ne first?

    *Someone get me my ulcer medication*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    • +Ni is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable predictions) for quantity (predicting further into the future), and -Ni the reverse.
    • +Ne is willing to sacrifice quality (knowing something's actual potential) for quantity (knowing all the possible things something could be).
    • +Fi is willing to sacrifice quality (close, trustworthy relations) for quantity (extending a hand of friendship to everyone), -Fi the reverse.
    • +Fe is willing to sacrifice quality (happiness) for quantity (emotional intensity), -Fe the reverse.
    • +Si is willing to sacrifice quality (reliability of pleasurable results) for quantity (intensity of pleasurable results), -Si the reverse.
    • +Se is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable strength) for quantity (lots of wealth), -Se the reverse.
    • +Ti is willing to sacrifice quality (logical correctness) for quantity (subjecting everything to order and organization), -Ti the reverse.
    • +Te is willing to sacrifice quality (efficiency of action) for quantity (productivity of action), -Te the reverse.
    How do these factor into valued and subdued, and strong and weak?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    I agree. To me, the "flawless logical structure" thing wasn't so much bragging about what Alphas are capable of, as it was describing the goal that Alphas aspire to.

    Workaholics, straytk, and jewels: I don't think most Deltas would actually phrase it the way I worded it (i.e., "wealth and power"), so that may be part of the confusion. But I have seen it in action in the Deltas I know. They tend to be very hard-working folks, who care about earning enough money to buy a good quality home, good quality cars, good quality everything. Of course, as I've been saying, Deltas view +Se as a means to an end, rather than an end in and of itself, so they tend to be less flashy and ostentatious with their wealth than, say, Gammas.

    Also, I don't know how old you guys are, but I would imagine this is something that develops a little later in Delta NFs. The value of the Super-Ego elements isn't always appreciated during the earlier stages of psycho-social development.
    Thanks, Krig, for clarifying. I certainly relate a lot more to what you describe there, in particular the bolded statement. And you could be right about the psychosocial development thing. May not be as related to numerical age, as perhaps to life circumstances. Maybe once I am married and have potential kids to worry about, it might kick in more noticeably.
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    I like this, and where it is heading.
    This is the place where I procrastinate on things Sig related.

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    How do these factor into valued and subdued, and strong and weak?
    They kind of don't. Essentially these describe the "flavors" of functions that different Quadras use and describes the different ways a member of one Quadra will use a function in contrast to someone from another Quadra.

    Beta Fe+ for instance, is focused on maximizing positive emotions while Alpha Fe- is focused on minimizing negative emotions. Whichever polarity a Beta NF or Alpha SF prefers, it's going to be a strong and valued function for them (and weak but valued for their duals.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    They kind of don't. Essentially these describe the "flavors" of functions that different Quadras use and describes the different ways a member of one Quadra will use a function in contrast to someone from another Quadra.

    Beta Fe+ for instance, is focused on maximizing positive emotions while Alpha Fe- is focused on minimizing negative emotions. Whichever polarity a Beta NF or Alpha SF prefers, it's going to be a strong and valued function for them (and weak but valued for their duals.)
    They have to.

    You have functions.
    Then you have blocked functions. (flavors)
    Then you have blocked functions in certain positions. (dispositions)
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    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    They have to.

    You have functions.
    Then you have blocked functions. (flavors)
    Then you have blocked functions in certain positions. (dispositions)
    I'd agree with you, but at this point it seems more reasonable to let Model A go in favor of a straight up 16-function model.

    But Krig you have discovered something: you have discovered part of why we prefer one "flavor" of our base function over another, that one represents quality and the other quantity, and we have a preference for one or the other.

    But why?
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 03-22-2011 at 02:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    They kind of don't. Essentially these describe the "flavors" of functions that different Quadras use and describes the different ways a member of one Quadra will use a function in contrast to someone from another Quadra.

    Beta Fe+ for instance, is focused on maximizing positive emotions while Alpha Fe- is focused on minimizing negative emotions. Whichever polarity a Beta NF or Alpha SF prefers, it's going to be a strong and valued function for them (and weak but valued for their duals.)
    I am more talking about valued/subdued than strong/weak.

    You are IEI, so you have demonstrative +Fi. +Fi is described by Krig as "willing to sacrifice quality (close, trustworthy relations) for quantity (extending a hand of friendship to everyone)". Now, what happens as a result of you devaluing this?

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    Oh, gotcha. That makes more sense.

    Krig explained this pretty well in post #3. Fi- means that I want to cut out negative relationships and am willing to remove myself from relationships that do me little good, but this is all subservient to Fe+, the desire to enjoy the breadth of emotional experience. And so, I guess, managing the negative qualities of relations is a secondary concern, done only when it doesn't contradict the concerns of experiencing the greatest emotional impact.

    I guess that makes a kind of sense. It seems really abstract and difficult to apply to myself, but I hope it can at least answer your question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post

    • +Fi is willing to sacrifice quality (close, trustworthy relations) for quantity (extending a hand of friendship to everyone), -Fi the reverse.
    Polygamy?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Polygamy?
    I suppose that depends on personal morals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    I suppose that depends on personal morals.
    http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/n...lcoholism-gene

    - A new study links a gene to alcohol addiction -- backing up a long-recognized pattern showing that alcoholism runs in families.
    Inclination?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Maybe if we were certain that type is genetic. But everything is really kind of cloudy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    Maybe if we were certain that type is genetic. But everything is really kind of cloudy.
    True.
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    I think Krigs +- evaluation is very useful in understanding the breadth of socionics. With that information and knowledge of the elements of reality I think you can easily understand what socionics is testing and how much of it pertains to reality. What its saying is every person has a preference for each of the basic parts of reality and quantity or quality preference. An intp and infp would be very different for instance even in base function preferences when you see the +-. Its not some mystical system or ineffable test it just has potential to be useful if implemented correctly.
    But even more for instance why is there not a sliding bar, a more dynamic version of function preferences? Well there is but to a limited degree with subtypes and other subtype theories. There could be incredible Ti subtype istjs and non specialized subtypes won't get along as well. But it also brings to bear that different cultures and genetics will perhaps have a certain bias towards a function. China for instance could be istj because of both genes and or culture in a synergistic way.
    Clearly I think a more dynamic test of socionics is needed if your going to have adequate algorithmic compatibility over a broad range and increase socionics own usefulness. But its still quite useful because it will gives a missing human compatibility element that can have a large impact on the overall direction of any endeavor. Basic vector alignment of quadra values should provide a large efficiency boost to teams on top of any already vetted system. But this is contingent on if you can establish a working test which should not be that hard if you have a professional team on the job. Hugo's wasn't bad, some of the new ones pretty much suck and are actually longer. They are still infinitely more reliable and useful that current forum typing. Taking them together to get a mix of results (some give as dynamic %s) along with the element understanding (lytovs introduction is very good as is socioniko, as well as including +-). We need to piece together a forum sticky with the best tests and introductory sites as part of the introduction to typing oneself in a quick method rather than go through the inefficient recycled methods we are currently using.

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    These are redundant, IMO. For example: Ti- equals Ne+. And so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Trevor View Post
    These are redundant, IMO. For example: Ti- equals Ne+. And so on.
    That may be so, but Ti and Ne are still different aspects, are they not?
    (i)NTFS

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    That may be so, but Ti and Ne are still different aspects, are they not?
    What is "aspect"?

    I think Ti and Ne are two different things. If that helps.
    I also think Ti- equals Ne+ but i already said that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Trevor View Post
    What is "aspect"?

    I think Ti and Ne are two different things. If that helps.
    I also think Ti- equals Ne+ but i already said that.
    It is not a relation of equivalence. You probably don't exactly mean that, but it sounds like you do. Ti- implies Ne+. They always exist together. They coincide. But they are not equal. To be equal means to be of the same shape and substance.

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    Krig, I take it that you enjoy twiddling Rubik's cubes for the pure sake of doing so, and in that regard the list is mostly fine. However, without the backing of solid, peer-reviewed neuroscience this is just just verbal sudokou played with an inheritance of arbitrarily defined alpha-centric categories. Since it says more about viewing a system than it does about that system's relation to actual human mentation, it has little truth value outside its internal organization. As no sensible builder erects an edifice on loose soil because its disastrous end is known, any symbolic elaboration upon poorly falsified foundations is destined to collapse under the weight of the real.

    A quote from our good friend, Max Born: “No concealed parameters can be introduced with the help of which the indeterministic description could be transformed into a deterministic one. Hence if a future theory should be deterministic, it cannot be a modification of the present one but must be essentially different.”

    To the tattoos on my penis I will now add:

    two + two ≠ quantified human cognition

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