Se in relation to self-control

[ashlesha]

discuss please.

[Trevor]

I don't know really. I associate good self-control primarily with Introversion. Be it that of functions or that of types. I don't know really. Just my 50 cents.

[Creepy-Snaps]

I can go both ways

[Creepy-Snaps]

Se can go both ways. One way is to be without control, impulsive, and the other is to have a firm grip on oneself and not let even one's impulses get the better of him. I can go both ways but prefer self-control. It's more advantageous in the long run. I watch plenty of people experience misery by being all "I can do whatever the fuck I want." I prefer not to follow the same route because I know first hand what a little folly and short-sightedness can do.

I would generally agree with this.

For me, my natural tendency my whole life has been to be impulsive, and I got in lots of fights through gradeschool, and a couple in high school. But, each time, I was disciplined, taught to control my impulse, whenever I feel anger, and that has truly helped me.

I think constant focus on what you really want, having a desire and goal to work toward, really opens your eyes, takes you out of any single moment, and helps you not lose yourself.

[Creepy-Snaps]

Unrelated. I don't see egos being any more impulsive on average than others—unless it's somehow true that egos have less developed frontal lobes or something. Conversely, nor do they seem to possess stronger self-control on average—unless trained meditators and enlightened mystics who've mastered capacities for self-control that would make any of us look pathetic, are somehow all egos.

However, it might be true that egos may seem to possess such traits, for whatever reason, despite it not being objectively the case. That might be something to talk about. Or if said traits were qualified situationally beyond broad and empty conjectures, that could be worth talking about.too.

I often see basic equivalences drawn between will power and . This seems plainly ridiculous IMO, unless people are just having weird ideas about what 'will power' is.

Socionics cancer!!

[ashlesha]

i can go either way as well, which makes me think its ntr or that the question of self-control per se isn't the best way of talking about it.

the talk about willpower is confusing to me bc i see willpower as the opposite of lack of self-control, maybe my type has something to do with this perception. like when aixel talks about impulsivity as a manifestation of drives - i mean, yeah, but how productive? do Se types see impulsivity as more productive, a more valid way of acheiving ends or something? the idea of being purposefully impulsive seems like an oxymoron to me.

[FDG]

As far as I understand, it seems to be related to temperament, where IJs are basically the only types characterized by self-control (introverted judging function as base).

[squark]

discuss please.

Not type-related as far as I can see. Though, self-control can mean different things. There's self-denial, or stopping oneself from an action or thought/emotion, and there's self-propelling, or creating an act through control, and both are generally termed "willpower." Pushing yourself to do something, and stopping yourself from doing something are both acts of will.

I am sometimes impulsive, acting without thinking through the consequences, but that's neither self-control, nor the lack of it. It's just feeling the desire to act and doing so. Self-control doesn't even enter into the picture there because I'm not attempting to control myself and failing - I'm simply making no attempt at all.

[Creepy-Snaps]

C'mon people. All types have self-control, of course. Let's make a comparison:

This is Se we're talking about. Do INFjs or INTjs lack self control, because Se is their POLR? No! Of course not.

Se is about living in the present, easily changing the physical world around you. Overcoming difficulties in a physically challenging aspect, and persevering through life. It's more about willpower than self-control. It also allows you to easily identify how hard others work, or who's being lazy, etc.

All types have willpower too, of course. It's just Se types are able to overcome physical difficulties better than other types are. Think sports, hiking without food, something physically challenging.

[Creepy-Snaps]

So I guess ultimately: before this derails into the specifics of Se: just to answer the original question. I would say there's no correlation between Se and self-control.

[HERO]

I'm lazy and I deserve to die.

[ashlesha]

And it's also true that I entertain completely irrational convictions that somehow, experiencing visceral realness of impact in one's actions, can have a way of catalyzing momentum in the right direction(s). If that makes sense… ?

i have a hard time getting it, tbh. maybe sort of. like having a sense of the impact you're making creates more possibility for you to make changes in the environment? where, in contrast, being unaware of your impact leads more to stagnation/apathy?

As far as I understand, it seems to be related to temperament, where IJs are basically the only types characterized by self-control (introverted judging function as base).

ya, i get this. which is why i self-type harmonizing and have considered Ip types for myself. i'm not at all inclined to make major life decisions on a whim or anything, but i'm certainly not always doing what i think i should be doing at any given time or whatever.

Not type-related as far as I can see. Though, self-control can mean different things. There's self-denial, or stopping oneself from an action or thought/emotion, and there's self-propelling, or creating an act through control, and both are generally termed "willpower." Pushing yourself to do something, and stopping yourself from doing something are both acts of will.

I am sometimes impulsive, acting without thinking through the consequences, but that's neither self-control, nor the lack of it. It's just feeling the desire to act and doing so. Self-control doesn't even enter into the picture there because I'm not attempting to control myself and failing - I'm simply making no attempt at all.

thanks, this is what i was trying to get at with the oxymoron thing. it looks like we're on the same page.

This is Se we're talking about. Do INFjs or INTjs lack self control, because Se is their POLR? No! Of course not.

obviously.

i think i disagree with some of what you say about Se, especially the "preservering through life" thing, but idk if its relevant, meh.

[DividedsGhost]

Se to me, in terms of self-control, seems like the person grasps a sense of greater energized confidence over the influence of the outside world. It sees itself as ultimately consequential to achievement in the world; inaction becomes a symptom of laziness and becoming a victim and action fuels a sense of taking control and 'having control'. Se instinctively believes that you make your destiny; this is its core of confidence.

That's what it seems like to me in people I type Se-leading. I get the feeling out of all the types that Se-leading has the greatest potential for avoiding existential crises.

[crazedrat]

When Ses act out its in an obvious and physical way. But self control can be related to many aspects of life.. There are ways I should control myself which I dont. So I dont think lacking self control is type related.

[ashlesha]

Se instinctively believes that you make your destiny; this is its core of confidence.

so is Se linked w/ having an internal locus of control?

[DividedsGhost]

so is Se linked w/ having an internal locus of control?

I believe that they feel they have an internal locus of control, but whether they do or not I guess is up to you to decide.

[FDG]

ya, i get this. which is why i self-type harmonizing and have considered Ip types for myself. i'm not at all inclined to make major life decisions on a whim or anything, but i'm certainly not always doing what i think i should be doing at any given time or whatever.

If it helps, I think my girlfriend is IJ-harmonizing. She says she feels the same way, but from my perspective she has a strong self-control. There's a subtle distinction between how an EJ might approach living a life where he/she needs to execute many tasks in a short amount of time, and how an IJ would do it. The IJs energy will feel like he/she is directing him/her mind and body towards doing something specific. The EJ energy will feel like he/she is doing one thing after another as if the task he's executing has control over him.
This attitude leads IJs towards feeling more personally responsible for procrastinating. Plus, Fi dominant types often can't really evaluate if/when they're doing enough work or not.

[Beautiful sky]

I have pretty good self control over my actions. What I lack in control of is being able to effectively emotionally manipulate others to get closer to their inner circle, with this, I usually have to wait until they make me a part of their lives. I offer them all that I am and wait to see how they decide about me. When they don't make me a friend, I get really sad . I can't force myself or find that way some people have to jumping into another's life and become their best friends, I find that SEE types can do this easily. How they are able to manipulate relations and get into another's inner circle and become "their best friend" is absolutely ridiculous concept to me. I can't do this. I'm not manipulative like this.

[redbaron]

I think Se leading types know it can be done. It's only a question of what their Ti or Fi wants. Ti/Fi makes the decision as to whether they'll hold back or allow themselves to act and Se carries it out. So it's willpower guided by their creative function.

Any type can have self-control.

[Beautiful sky]

I think Se leading types know it can be done. It's only a question of what their Ti or Fi wants. Ti/Fi makes the decision as to whether they'll hold back or allow themselves to act and Se carries it out. So it's willpower guided by their creative function.

Any type can have self-control.

Oh, so in the friendship example I gave, an SEE would just say "I want that person" or "I want to be friends with them" and strategically maneuver themselves to acquiring that relation?

[redbaron]

Oh, so in the friendship example I gave, an SEE would just say "I want that person" or "I want to be friends with them" and strategically maneuver themselves to acquiring that relation?

Yeah I think so. And this is how SLEs are so good with business decisions, even difficult ones that aren't popular with others (firing someone or whatnot). Their Ti tells them what needs to be done to get the result they want, and they do it.

[Creepy-female]

I think if you're interested in the nature of Se, it helps to contrast it with Ne. You might be able to get a pretty good idea of how it works. Riddy wrote about Ne, his entire post is here if you're interested: http://forum.socionix.com/topic/1298...314#entry10314

But I haven't read the whole thing lately so I'm going to pick out the part that was relevant to me:

I can certainly see how Se/Ni types would see Ne as being more "methodical," and there certainly is an element of that in the way we think. However, it doesn't feel methodical at all to me. From the Ni perspective, Ne has to go down the nodes of a possibility tree, but from the perspective of an Ne individual, this happens so fast that it seldoms seems obligatory or burdensome. I really "feel out" the significance of different nodes more than judge them. It feels like I consider all these different things at once and can mix and mash them at will.

If you consider the nature of the information elements (aspects, or functions, I dunno the term) for Se and Ne, the only quality that separates them theoretically is the external/internal dichotomy.. you've got

Se - external statics of objects
Ne - internal statics of objects

So if you've got the idea of one, it's pretty easy to compare/contrast to the other.

I haven't had any epiphany about Se lately and unless I go into some sort of magical trance I doubt I'm going to have one, but I liked what Bolt wrote about Ne and Se here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=34790..His writing was kind of hard for me to read, I had to keep going back and rereading, but there's good information there..