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Thread: The 16 Purposes

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    Default The 16 Purposes

    I have noticed that what I see the world as most lacking in is sympathy. I see this belief as an effect of my IEI EM type, whose producing ego function is beta Fe (the function of emotional awareness). I spend a great deal of time imagining how people may feel, particularly those who are estranged from society (Sephiroth was crack to me as a teen).

    I've heard it said by one of the lead figures at Nuremberg, "evil is the inability to sympathize."

    I believe the creating EM function determines one's vision of a perfect world, a place saturated in positive observations by it.

    So framing your vision of a better world -- the starting point for it -- in terms of a quadra function is one way to diagnose your EM type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post

    I believe the creating EM function determines one's vision of a perfect world, a place saturated in positive observations by it.

    So framing your vision of a better world -- the starting point for it -- in terms of a quadra function is one way to diagnose your EM type.
    I'm not sure if this is definitive. Aren't types settled on fulfillment of their Hidden Agenda to be the start of an actualized life? It seems like everyone's EM type then would be the HA, DS or Base.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    I'm not sure if this is definitive. Aren't types settled on fulfillment of their Hidden Agenda to be the start of an actualized life? It seems like everyone's EM type then would be the HA, DS or Base.
    The hidden agenda is a goal, but it is not in itself a problem. The dearth of negative creating EM content is a primary issue in one's life, particularly because one uses the road to improving its state as a framework by which to assess the proper state of the EM base. In my case, that means that a truly ethical settlement is that which is most effectively sympathetic to all involved parties. This is why people must be viewed deeply, and the effects of punishments against them carefully measured. As a person who is willing to define my own ethical code,I need as much sympathy as possible to the extent that it is not in agreement with others' codes as such. So it is in my interest be as sympathetic to others as possible, vis a vis the Golden Rule. The more I exalt and practice the Golden Rule, the more I can rely upon it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    I'm not sure if this is definitive. Aren't types settled on fulfillment of their Hidden Agenda to be the start of an actualized life? It seems like everyone's EM type then would be the HA, DS or Base.
    So... what is the world lacking in your eyes? What is the base which must be changed before all else can be fixed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    So... what is the world lacking in your eyes? What is the base which must be changed before all else can be fixed?
    If I may answer, I'd say that I feel that life lacks any real sense of purpose. It seems as though the only goal one can follow is obtain a station of some stability, enjoy whatever comforts one can in order to stay happy, and then die as gracefully and serenely as possible. Life is short and finite and whatever struggle one gives to improve one's rapidly depleting span will be rendered ultimately meaningless by one's death.

    I mean, going to college, studying your ass off for years to get a degree, getting fitted for a nice suit you only wear to interviews, boning up your resume, competing with hundreds to find a decent job, balancing your budget, living within your means, going through a bunch of bad relationships, settling for one you can live with, raising a couple kids, feeling our body start to deteroriate, looking with nostalgia on things that used to give you pleasure...


    ...that seems like a hell of a lot of wasted effort. One can invent one's own reasons for wanting to stay alive beyond mere base survival instinct, but ultimately what I feel this world is missing is a grand, broad, reason to care. A reason so all-encompassing and so identifiable that no one would ever have to come up with a reason to keep living, it would just be taken for granted.
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    The main problem I see in the world itself is that people dont think about what they're doing. Seems to fit with my EM

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    The hidden agenda is a goal, but it is not in itself a problem. The dearth of negative creating EM content is a primary issue in one's life, particularly because one uses the road to improving its state as a framework by which to assess the proper state of the EM base. In my case, that means that a truly ethical settlement is that which is most effectively sympathetic to all involved parties. This is why people must be viewed deeply, and the effects of punishments against them carefully measured. As a person who is willing to define my own ethical code,I need as much sympathy as possible to the extent that it is not in agreement with others' codes as such. So it is in my interest be as sympathetic to others as possible, vis a vis the Golden Rule. The more I exalt and practice the Golden Rule, the more I can rely upon it.
    Sounds like alchemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    So... what is the world lacking in your eyes?
    Warmth?

    What is the base which must be changed before all else can be fixed?
    The whole world, huh?

    Hard to say.

    I guess people need to seriously give up their comfortable lifestyles so we can make some change in the world. ?
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    I don't think I did it right.
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    sounds like Te Si

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    Biggest problem I see: wasted human potential. People living like lemmings, inculcated into a deadening system from early childhood onward. Not using their creativity, not realizing their mental capacities, not believing they can do new things.

    Does that fit with my supposed ENTp EM, tcaud?

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    You're on the right track tcaud.

    I don't think it's just sympathy, though.

    I think the world doesn't have much of a heart anymore, period really.

    And that is really a lot bigger than sympathy or even empathy. It's passion, and intensity and also anger and LUST and EXCITEMENT. it's pure raw feelings basically. Everything that the heart generates, the world lacks, because like it said in the latest Buffy comic 'the world has lost its heart.'

    People are too jaded to even bully anymore. Because bullying and mean-ness comes from a heart. Now it's just this fake un-heart-y thing. I don't like it all. It's a lot bigger than sympathy, so just don't argue it from that angle, or they will just call you emo.

    Like while shopping at the store the other day, I was talking to the clerk about something and it's like, could you be any faker? I know some people will argue 'well she's not there to have a heart to heart with you, you faggot, she's just there to do her job, but there's no good reason why those things can't be mixed. It's just off-putting and weird. And fake. Like this mask they're hiding behind...I wanted to punch her in the face. I mean why even have a job as a human if you're gonna act like a robot. Weird creepy bitch.

    Midwest ppl repress their emotions. They probably think all emotions are 'weaknesses' even the powerful ones. How retarded.

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    I won't lie dude: I am totally emo.

    Seems like there is need for a list of all sixteen "deficits", as it were.

    Empathy and sympathy are different. Sympathy is modulation of one's own outlook to respect another person's emotional welfare. Empathy is the understanding of an emotion -- paying enough attention to try to work out why it is what it is.

    But I agree there isn't emotion enough. Or, it's being channeled into unproductive, unfulfilling venues.

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    When I have my theory up in running, I'm going to run it by you tcaud to see what you think, hopefully some of these issues could be addressed... part of it is inspecting the relations between functions, and the transformations or tensors to shift between these functions with certain rules... for example Ti -> Fi is not allowed... but Ti -> Fe -> Fi is, to justify these "selection" rules I'm going down to the jungian level and the original socionics information metabolism justifications.

    You know that Ti and Fi are incompatible but the idea has occurred to me that in a sense Ti is linked to Fe and Ne to Si, which provides a connection between the ego and super-id. In a sense, the base and creative functions are "bait" to put out to receive the dual seeking and hidden agenda functions... meaning an LII utilizes TiNe as a way of receiving FeSi in a sense. This is one form of connection with a characteristic "transformation" to it.

    Fe-Fi, Si-Se also has a characteristic "transformation" to it.

    Thus while Ti and Fi are incompatible they link through one possible pathway. Ti -> Fe -> Fi. But also may link through Ti -> Te -> Fi. Each of these channels are analyzed in the model versus the static representation to understand the flow of information within the individual and the flow of information between individuals.

    Maybe this sort of dynamic model of the functions will pose some use to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    When I have my theory up in running, I'm going to run it by you tcaud to see what you think, hopefully some of these issues could be addressed... part of it is inspecting the relations between functions, and the transformations or tensors to shift between these functions with certain rules... for example Ti -> Fi is not allowed... but Ti -> Fe -> Fi is, to justify these "selection" rules I'm going down to the jungian level and the original socionics information metabolism justifications.

    You know that Ti and Fi are incompatible but the idea has occurred to me that in a sense Ti is linked to Fe and Ne to Si, which provides a connection between the ego and super-id. In a sense, the base and creative functions are "bait" to put out to receive the dual seeking and hidden agenda functions... meaning an LII utilizes TiNe as a way of receiving FeSi in a sense. This is one form of connection with a characteristic "transformation" to it.

    Fe-Fi, Si-Se also has a characteristic "transformation" to it.

    Thus while Ti and Fi are incompatible they link through one possible pathway. Ti -> Fe -> Fi. But also may link through Ti -> Te -> Fi. Each of these channels are analyzed in the model versus the static representation to understand the flow of information within the individual and the flow of information between individuals.

    Maybe this sort of dynamic model of the functions will pose some use to you.
    That sounds like the ideas Gulenko presents in his paper "Structure of the Socionics Model" (minus the contrary function aspects, but we've known about those for a while). There can be strong resistance to using Ti and Te in conjunction. (interesting note, I believe Augusta was the first to explore that idea, in her article "More reasons to use both types of thinking", although Jung talks about Ti and Te being "parallel" in his type essay, I believe).

    However, the exact frame of the relationship is a little difficult to understand, so you may be on to something.

    Also remember that the rules only work for functions in the same system. Any IM function can pair with any EM function, although the EM functions are of course governed by the same rules as the IM functions, so you can't change the pairings at random without losing your train of thought.

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    Actually, what I see most lacking in the world right now is emotional and social responsiveness. It hasnt always been this way, and probably always wont be, but I see very little Fe in society and it pisses me off. It even sent an ENTp friend of mine to the mental hospital.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    That sounds like the ideas Gulenko presents in his paper "Structure of the Socionics Model" (minus the contrary function aspects, but we've known about those for a while). There can be strong resistance to using Ti and Te in conjunction. (interesting note, I believe Augusta was the first to explore that idea, in her article "More reasons to use both types of thinking", although Jung talks about Ti and Te being "parallel" in his type essay, I believe).

    However, the exact frame of the relationship is a little difficult to understand, so you may be on to something.

    Also remember that the rules only work for functions in the same system. Any IM function can pair with any EM function, although the EM functions are of course governed by the same rules as the IM functions, so you can't change the pairings at random without losing your train of thought.
    Excuse my illiteracy, but EM and IM functions... please kindly explain the difference and what IM/EM stand for...

    Also if you have the links to both papers....

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    I came upon the Augusta paper abstract in the institute journal. I don't recall there being a link.... The Gulenko paper is available on Wikisocion.

    IM = "information metabolism": function of learning/long term potentiation
    EM = "energy metabolism", function of information intake, short term memory, recall, and identification.

    Together the two systems enable the realization of correlation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    Actually, what I see most lacking in the world right now is emotional and social responsiveness. It hasnt always been this way, and probably always wont be, but I see very little Fe in society and it pisses me off. It even sent an ENTp friend of mine to the mental hospital.
    But how do you aim to increase the social responsiveness? What can you do that will make it better?

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    Generally, I don't think that people should blame the society for their ill. More often than not, people cause themselves their own misery. They are upset... because their claims are plainly fantastic, and are furious if their secret claims of life are not forthcoming. People don't treat him like as if he were Godlike in his imagination, instead they treat him just like everybody else. He may have some sort of a minuscule psychotic breakdown if the discrepancy between his arrogant, grandeur image of himself and how everybody treats him become too great for him to tolerate. They don't drop off everything immediately and come to his rescue if he is having some sort of a problem, even though other people have their own needs too. He just thinks that his needs are much greater than the others. etc...
    Last edited by Singu; 03-11-2011 at 05:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    I came upon the Augusta paper abstract in the institute journal. I don't recall there being a link.... The Gulenko paper is available on Wikisocion.

    IM = "information metabolism": function of learning/long term potentiation
    EM = "energy metabolism", function of information intake, short term memory, recall, and identification.

    Together the two systems enable the realization of correlation.
    So

    IM is like long term

    and

    EM is short term

    IM is like the steady state
    and
    EM is like the transient effects

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    I think its best understood as subjective vs objective. Observing the world around you is transient and fleeting.. compiling your inner world is lasting. I dont think the two realms are inherently separate, but splitting them up does give added distinguishment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    But how do you aim to increase the social responsiveness? What can you do that will make it better?
    hmmm. I dont know, really. Theres not much that can be done except make people aware that this is how it is, that people are messed up for being like this and keep my fingers crossed hoping they will change for the better. Because since this is a trend , they will change, I just hope not for the worse.

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    The purposes as I see them:

    - beta Fe: emotional awareness and immersion
    - alpha Fe: tolerance and acceptance
    - beta Ti: motion, change, fluidity
    - alpha Ti: observance of principles and respect for rules
    - delta Te: coordination of effort, proper placement
    - gamma Te: efficiency and maximum work in least time
    - delta Fi: motivation and acceptance of opportunity
    - gamma Fi: equity, fairness
    - beta Se: respect for feasibility
    - gamma Se: respect for rights and entitlements
    - beta Ni: self-reflection and prudence
    - gamma Ni: planning, preparation, integration
    - alpha Ne: intellectual awareness
    - delta Ne: making things happen
    - alpha Si: fun and pleasure
    - delta Si: health and wellness

    Basically, we want people to pay more attention to what is happening in the domain of our creative EM function, and to be more responsive to it. The SLI EM person wants the people around them to get to work; the LIE EM person wants people to be aware of what the trends of activity seems to be and preparing appropriate responses; the ESE EM person wants people to be aware of what's hip and hot; the SEE EM person wants people to be aware of their rights and how they relate to others' rights as such; the LSE EM person wants people to be making positive contributions to others' lives.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 03-13-2011 at 07:57 AM.

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    hmm, you sure that you seeking sympathy in the world isn't simply a manifestation of our dual-seeking function rather than manifestation of your EM type? As far as I know this function produces periodic strong emotionalism in LIIs especially LIIs lacking on Fe supply and causes them to 'go emo' as some logical types call it. Here is an entire article that covers this : http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...rior-itps.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    hmm, you sure that you seeking sympathy in the world isn't simply a manifestation of our dual-seeking function rather than manifestation of your EM type? As far as I know this function produces periodic strong emotionalism in LIIs especially LIIs lacking on Fe supply and causes them to 'go emo' as some logical types call it. Here is an entire article that covers this : http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...rior-itps.html
    Yes I'm sure, because I see the same thing in George W. Bush, who is my EM identical.

    And I do not speak of "seeking" sympathy, but of providing it.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 03-13-2011 at 08:33 PM.

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    I think the gamma Fi and Te purposes are inverted with the delta ones, tcaudilllg, but thats just me, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    I think the gamma Fi and Te purposes are inverted with the delta ones, tcaudilllg, but thats just me, lol.
    I see where he's getting at and it makes sense to me. Delta is not focused on real equity and fairness as they don't value Se(External Involvement). Ne(Internal Abstract) coupled with Fi(Internal Involved) is the source of their motivation / desire. The NFs have strong internal selves, especially INFj. Likewise, ESTj is a strong external type.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    I see where he's getting at and it makes sense to me. Delta is not focused on real equity and fairness as they don't value Se(External Involvement). Ne(Internal Abstract) coupled with Fi(Internal Involved) is the source of their motivation / desire. They have strong internal selves, especially NF, especially INFj.
    Ok. I guess I was being a bit steotypical as I associated political corretness(more delta NF in my opinion, at least sterotypically speaking when you think of IEEs like Oprah) with fairness.

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    People lack respect and understanding for one another. If people could just step outside their judgements, prejudices and preconceptions, the world would be a better, more rational, more tolerant, freer place.

    So does that make my EM type an XLE?

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    i think that Empathy is far more important than Sympathy.

    Sympathy is done to make yourself feel better. Empathy is done to take the pain another feels, and to attempt to share the load for their sake.

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    Empathy is inert; sympathy prods to action.

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    Semantics!

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    I like this thread...I like the empathy/sympathy part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Yes I'm sure, because I see the same thing in George W. Bush, who is my EM identical.

    And I do not speak of "seeking" sympathy, but of providing it.
    In original post you stated that you see the world is "lacking in sympathy" which is the kind of judgement Fi would make rather than Fe of the IEI (I was wrong in my other posts too as this isn't Fe).

    Providing empathy would be Fe and LIIs will attempt to do on an occasion when they are acting out of their super-ID. What I don't understand is why do you consider this to be a consequence of your EM type rather than your socionics type? How do you make this distinction?

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    In original post you stated that you see the world is "lacking in sympathy" which is the kind of judgement Fi would make rather than Fe of the IEI (I was wrong in my other posts too as this isn't Fe).

    Providing empathy would be Fe and LIIs will attempt to do on an occasion when they are acting out of their super-ID. What I don't understand is why do you consider this to be a consequence of your EM type rather than your socionics type? How do you make this distinction?
    EM type = cause
    IM type = effect

    IM type = (up here)
    EM type = (out there)

    EM type = what's happening
    IM type = your little contribution to understanding the consequences of what's happening

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    EM type = cause
    IM type = effect

    IM type = (up here)
    EM type = (out there)

    EM type = what's happening
    IM type = your little contribution to understanding the consequences of what's happening
    Alright, this is much more clear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Alright, this is much more clear.
    Right. You see in the sphere of every EM-DCNH combination (and hence every field of interest), you have representatives of each IM type pointing out how the activity of the field is affecting their respective base elements. Just as you have, 16 type-based perspectives on sports. Then you look a little further, at the political level, and you find another 16 for every type, or even 32 if you care to look that close.

    Everyone is doing their part for our collective psychological wholeness and wellness; i.e. the metanarrative phrase created by our technology, culture, and environment. The more variation you have, the more balanced the mentality of the culture is likely to be. (not counting uncontrollable external pressures which can turn power towards one personality or another, which is how dictators arise in democratic environments).

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