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Thread: The Delta type of evil

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    Default The Delta type of evil

    inspired by the the "most dangerous type" thread...i know this has been discussed before, sorry. i remember the most prominent conception of how delta evil would manifest being some kind of utopia, like the giver or something? do you agree with this? what i'm most interested in is the why - translating how TeNeFiSi could go bad in a traceable way. thoughts?

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    At the risk of offending some of the very lovely Deltas on our board, the way/s I have seen "evil" manifest in some Deltas in my life is through some kind of disconnection from the effects or real intent of actions.

    I have seen a failure in terms of embracing, integrating, and understanding one's own shadow. In any person, of any stripe, this can lead to the shadow self affecting one's behavior such that one is unaware of it. The right hand will not know what the left hand is doing, as they say. Right hand: "I am a nice person and am doing this for everyone's benefit." Left hand, unheard: "I will control others and make myself comfortable and secure by doing this, and if it hurts them I will not acknowledge that even to myself." That sort of thing.

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    Umm not that sure what are you asking for. What are common pitfalls of delta or how would a evil delta person be?

    Assuming I understand what you are asking then a few from the top of my head:

    FiTe - Corruption. Using personal relations to push through something you need. To make it faster and without hickups. Such behavior, especially if it brings results can become a habit.

    SiFi - Complacency (not sure for what is a proper word for this). Ignoring minor transgressions and the like in order to preserve peace and strong bonds. This can grow without notice, minor, minor, minor, major, minor, minor. As long as no single transgression is overly big or as long as the frequency of them isn't too great this can go on for a long time with adverse effects on others. For example when politicians ignore human rights violations or react in a very mild form when they have good relations with that country.
    Obviously this scenario can fit any quadra but reasons for doing it would differ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    At the risk of offending some of the very lovely Deltas on our board, the way/s I have seen "evil" manifest in some Deltas in my life is through some kind of disconnection from the effects or real intent of actions.

    I have seen a failure in terms of embracing, integrating, and understanding one's own shadow. In any person, of any stripe, this can lead to the shadow self affecting one's behavior such that one is unaware of it. The right hand will not know what the left hand is doing, as they say. Right hand: "I am a nice person and am doing this for everyone's benefit." Left hand, unheard: "I will control others and make myself comfortable and secure by doing this, and if it hurts them I will not acknowledge that even to myself." That sort of thing.
    I do that to some level, yes, mainly because of the J function and being locked into one's ways. It might be a process of evolution. Evolution of Delta, to me, looks very simple. Fi is to create group bond. It's strengthens a group to remain uniform because hunting in bigger numbers makes the group survive and be much more successful. All behaviors that tie into Delta make it correlate with evolutionary necessity.

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    @golden: yeah, this is something i've seen in a few people. i have i hard time seeing it in myself, but that could be an example lolol :/ any idea how it could be related to delta values? valued Fi and unvalued Ni maybe? in any case, personal observations are interesting, thank you.

    @small: yeah, thats exactly what i was looking for. nothing to add really, your post was helpful, thanks.

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    I think that Deltas become too proud... and they become too protective of their "own kind". They look down on anyone that they deem as their inferiors and subordinates with contempt or disregard, yet they suck up to their superiors. They become arrogant or snobbish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    @golden: yeah, this is something i've seen in a few people. i have i hard time seeing it in myself, but that could be an example lolol :/ any idea how it could be related to delta values? valued Fi and unvalued Ni maybe? in any case, personal observations are interesting, thank you.
    Setting aside for a moment the information elements and backing out to the big picture, what Dolphin wrote about quadras and the abyss relates to this, imo.

    http://forum.socionix.com/topic/3712...__1#entry23364

    In terms of the IEs, it could be something about making meaning of the world through Si versus Ni, and valuing Fi bonds over broader Fe social values. I think there's more than one way to look at it and haven't given it a lot of thought at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Setting aside for a moment the information elements and backing out to the big picture, what Dolphin wrote about quadras and the abyss relates to this, imo.

    http://forum.socionix.com/topic/3712...__1#entry23364

    In terms of the IEs, it could be something about making meaning of the world through Si versus Ni, and valuing Fi bonds over broader Fe social values. I think there's more than one way to look at it and haven't given it a lot of thought at this point.
    That link is really, really good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I do that to some level, yes, mainly because of the J function and being locked into one's ways. It might be a process of evolution. Evolution of Delta, to me, looks very simple. Fi is to create group bond. It's strengthens a group to remain uniform because hunting in bigger numbers makes the group survive and be much more successful. All behaviors that tie into Delta make it correlate with evolutionary necessity.
    You're talking about Fe, dumbo. I appreciate you stop reading my posts twisting them and forming some bullshit shit.

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    1. Being "locked into one's way" won't get you far as far evolution goes,

    2. It depends on the group. A group of nutters won't help your evolutional cause as well, and I think you're aiming for such a group, you group person you,

    3. Having said that, go ahead and (d)evolve. Sorry, I wanted to quote you properly "Let's evolve", but I think devolving suits you better,

    4. You're Ti valuing,

    5. Not this kind of disinformation is/was requested by the thread maker.

    Au revoir, singe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by somavision View Post
    That link is really, really good.
    Yeah, I think what Dolphin came up with there has been the single most helpful thing I've encountered in reading and thinking about Socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I do that to some level, yes, mainly because of the J function and being locked into one's ways. It might be a process of evolution. Evolution of Delta, to me, looks very simple. Fi is to create group bond. It's strengthens a group to remain uniform because hunting in bigger numbers makes the group survive and be much more successful. All behaviors that tie into Delta make it correlate with evolutionary necessity.
    You do realize that you're implying Delta is the most advanced quadra, correct? That's almost exactly what I am getting at when I point to the problems I've had with certain Deltas IRL. Quadra aside, that kind of attitude is abhorrent to me.

    Part of what Dolphin does not seem to say about the abyss, but which I happen to think is true, is that it's a loop. It is not onward, upward, ever better; it's "oops, looks like we fucked it up again."

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    Delta Villian: Refusing to change tradition regardless of the consequences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
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    A guesswork, basically:

    Racism, prejudices, nepothism, unability to really relate to other people/social groups and their eventual misfortunes...
    Last edited by Trevor; 03-09-2011 at 01:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Delta Villian: Refusing to change tradition regardless of the consequences.
    perfect. Although that doesn't sound very villain-y.

    Super Delta villain: I REFUSE to change the tradition! Even if it kills us all!

    Everyone: Idiot... let's just ignore him.

    Although that could be a problem if the majority were Delta, or if the absolute ruler was a Delta.

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    The Fallout 1 PC RPG game has a very characteristic instance of what i would call "Delta evil".

    Basically the hero of the story lives in a fallout shelter that lends protection from radiation from a nuclear war for most of his early life, then is sent outside by the ISTp overseer to find a replacement water purification chip that is needed for the people inside the shelter to survive. The world outside is very harsh and cruel place where he needs to develop a lot of Beta skills to survive. He finds the chip and returns it, then is sent out again to get rid of another threat, rinse repeat until the world is deemed safe by the ISTp overseer. When he is all worn out and ready to retire and returns home, the overseer decides that his Beta attitude makes him no longer fit in with the vault's inhabitants and exiles him. He had been sending the hero on errands to get rid of him.

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    Personally I don't think about this in terms of quadras per se. Usually it's like

    : moral superiority, imposing moral values on others
    : self-glorification, hero worship
    : yeah, (pseudo)utopianism in general, false perfection, scheming
    : yeah, complacency or preserving an imaginary status quo. Kind of like that character in the Hours in the '50s that feels compelled to be the Perfect Mother and Wife.
    : going overboard and trying to conquer everything
    : occultism, fear-mongering, isolation from reality
    : subjecting everything to the industrial machine; technological impersonalization
    : the System, centralized control

    It would be interesting to study fictional examples of evil and correlate them with authors' types.

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    The topic of evil has been studied by Christians for years (considering how important sin is in the religion). I believe that evil is a manifestation of the "seven deadly sins":

    -Gluttony
    -Lust
    -Greed
    -Sloth
    -Wrath
    -Envy
    -Pride

    So I'd say that Delta might not be very good at dealing with Sloth and Pride in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I do that to some level, yes, mainly because of the J function and being locked into one's ways. It might be a process of evolution. Evolution of Delta, to me, looks very simple. Fi is to create group bond. It's strengthens a group to remain uniform because hunting in bigger numbers makes the group survive and be much more successful. All behaviors that tie into Delta make it correlate with evolutionary necessity.
    Thats not the shadow, and thats not a full representation of evolution either. All things are evolutionary, including when people split up. You can bring evolution into anything.

    The shadow of a group bond is the people left out in the cold. Like when people preach about donating to charities to feed the alaskan homeless or to donate to breast cancer research. The first thing I always think is "why the alaskan homeless in particular?". And they will build these things up to be such great causes. Yeah they're good causes, but who ever mentions the starving nations over in africa? A few people, but not as many. Even though those people are far more in need than anyone over here in the USA. But they're not as cared for. They're not part of our group of the favored and pampered. That's pretty much a Delta attitude. If this kind of group bond goes overboard you get something like the USA which tramples over the rest of the world. Its always Deltas with that american pride shit, too. Same thing with christianity.
    Last edited by crazedrat; 03-09-2011 at 04:24 AM.

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    Like I said lol

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
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    in an evil delta type could also be something like doing whatever you want for your own deep-seeded pleasure, without regarding others feelings and the ethical consequences of such (like that ESTj in Wall Street) along the lines of what Ssmall said, business leverage via relationships, and the other I thought of was said, a corrupt sense of right and wrong. Just as could be doing things for the purpose of imposing the objective ethic or feeling of people onto an act or principle, aka ignorance of others feelings or even ignorance of a genuinely empathetic feeling, as well as peer corruption/manipulation, to speak generally. But in reality I think all types can be ignorant, stupid, selfish in the same ways, thus can be seen as evil from different perspectives, like quadra. The categorizing doesn't really assist the general truth.

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    There's a lot of gray area with morality.

    I don't know here's why saving the world really never works:

    Say you have an innocent victim, she really needs to be saved...from this evil sociopathic dude. You want to help, you should help, but all of a sudden out of the blue you get so instinctively horny that you HAVE to jack off to internet porn before you go, or you will just burst. You try to hold it in but you just can't.... technically you are being selfish, but it's just sort of natural you know? It's one of those beastly raging animalistic blood lust hard ons btw not one of those 'I'm bored so I'll jack off for awhile' dull hard ons.

    So you jack off until you cum, really enjoying the pure pleasure, but when you get there to save the damsel in distress, she's already butchered up by the sociopath. You see the girl being cut up and you feel so fucking guilty. ((Or if you're Hitta or Discojoe, you just got even harder. LOL JUST KIDDING. Hopefully.))

    Of course Hollywood never deals with that realism. They only inspire you to be your most ideal self.

    Or....you're trying to save the damsel, and you really have to piss. What are you gonna do? Just piss right in front of her? That's not really noble or knight like is it. She might find that hot, but chances are she'll just find it gross. So you have to take a break and piss, or eat, or do anything else but focus on her, all of which are probably 'selfish' but are just sort of natural, and if you turn your back she might die. But the point is at some time, sadly, you have to turn your back.

    Pissing, fucking, cumming, spitting, shitting, eating, are all incredibly selfish and sinful bodily activities, but they're all needed for life. Ya know??? Root Chakra baby. Original sin. The primitive primal force.

    That's why in addition to teaching people co-operation and being a hero, it isn't really a bad idea to teach them how to take care of themselves as well. You can still save 'em when they're being sweet and innocent but reality has a way of setting in. I don't know it's just, even in the most sweetest, kindest softest person they are selfish. They might feel guilty for being that way but it doesn't stop them from selfishly masturbating instead of helping the world out, or whatever. This can be a 'morally gray' area without descending into a 'morally black' area.
    Last edited by bnd; 03-09-2011 at 01:30 PM.

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    It seems to me that the most potentially evil Fi thing is the whole middle school/high school mean girls thing where you form a clique and make that relationship the center of the girls' world, and then kick one girl out so she has no friends. Ouch!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    perfect. Although that doesn't sound very villain-y.

    Super Delta villain: I REFUSE to change the tradition! Even if it kills us all!

    Everyone: Idiot... let's just ignore him.

    Although that could be a problem if the majority were Delta, or if the absolute ruler was a Delta.
    He's an absolute ruler. Or he decides everyone is wrong and going on a suicide mission so he destroys what they were going to use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Part of what Dolphin does not seem to say about the abyss, but which I happen to think is true, is that it's a loop. It is not onward, upward, ever better; it's "oops, looks like we fucked it up again."
    I do think it's a loop. (I regret that I didn't make that clear, but I supposed that readers could extend the metaphor in whatever way that was helpful to them without contradicting the original material.) I think the most wise people have in mind that it's a loop..I think it makes more sense to say, I wrote it that way because, despite some people having a better awareness of the loop than others, each quadra is pretty fixed in their view of their place in the loop as correct, valid.

    Now, having an opinion that something is valid...negates the space of its contrast..there's just not as much room for the opposing opinion. You can acknowledge that there are other viewpoints..but just by the fact that you hold a viewpoint, you are making a definitive statement about your judgment of it. I see the knowledge of the existence of the loop as a tool to think about how to communicate more effectively..to others for the way they are..to understand human nature..but at the end of the day I believe I do make decisions partly based on a Gamma viewpoint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Trevor View Post
    A guesswork, basically:

    Racism, prejudices, nepothism, unability to really relate to other people/social groups and their eventual misfortunes...
    I am very anti all of those things, basically. (Well, except that last thing for which I'm not sure.)
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    Everyone is. .

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    Everyone is. .
    It's true. Ask them .

    I have no idea. I was just guessing, back at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Trevor View Post
    Everyone is. .
    Not really. A large portion of the guys I hang out with and meet possess some of those traits(/inclinations/whatever) to some degree or another, enough so that it comes of as apparent and sometimes observable even from a distance.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Trevor View Post
    It's true. Ask them .
    Oh, so you were being sarcastic?

    I agree there are pussies who are afraid to admit their fucked up believes, or try to convince themselves otherwise.
    Last edited by Park; 03-10-2011 at 01:22 AM.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    I loved that game so much. Very rich and immersive storyline. It had some kind of formative influence on my youth lol. And yeah I agree it exemplifies a kind of δ-evil. I always murdered the Overseer at the end after he kicked me out of the vault. Bastard.
    hah, same here. I could have said that, verbatim.

    I think Fallout 2 exemplifies a kind of δ-evil too. When you have to kill off the psychotic post-nuclear remnants of the US Government that survived the war, because they've deemed they still have a moral imperative to play world policeman even 150 years after civilization was blasted into the abyss, and are planning to exterminate the surviving mainland population in order to "make the world safe for real humanity."
    If I'm not mistaken, the original idea for the story line of Fallout 3 (old van Buren version by the original design team) involved a war between the New Californian Republic (welfare state types) and the Brotherhood Of Steel (traditionalist cult), both of which can easily be construed to be Delta. Its as if the developers were hell bent on exposing the long term detrimental effects of delta policy through irony in their story lines.

    Another instance of this: although this didn't make it into the final version of the game, the narrative of the game ending was supposed to tell the story that if the ESTj sherrif Killian Darkwater in Junktown was favored over ESxp villain Gizmo, the town would decline in prosperity and slump into poverty from having its attractive influence from Gizmo's casino removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    I do think it's a loop. (I regret that I didn't make that clear, but I supposed that readers could extend the metaphor in whatever way that was helpful to them without contradicting the original material.) I think the most wise people have in mind that it's a loop..I think it makes more sense to say, I wrote it that way because, despite some people having a better awareness of the loop than others, each quadra is pretty fixed in their view of their place in the loop as correct, valid.

    Now, having an opinion that something is valid...negates the space of its contrast..there's just not as much room for the opposing opinion. You can acknowledge that there are other viewpoints..but just by the fact that you hold a viewpoint, you are making a definitive statement about your judgment of it. I see the knowledge of the existence of the loop as a tool to think about how to communicate more effectively..to others for the way they are..to understand human nature..but at the end of the day I believe I do make decisions partly based on a Gamma viewpoint.
    Well, I sorta want OUT of the bottom of the abyss, and feel like my life is about trying to get out of it, which might help explain why I have/had (apparently) Gamma parents and ended up marrying a Delta. Mostly I want people to see how we are all complicit in this human story, regardless of how we feel about it, or how we judge or assess it.

    The only reason I brought up the idea that the abyss is a loop was as a response to the implication that Delta is just free and clear of the phenomenon of human darkness. All of us are human, and all of us are part and parcel of it--it is a collective phenomenon. And I think that by resisting or denying something, we tend to strengthen it.

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    Sterotypically speaking I would imagine the delta evil to be some kind of pseudo pacifist cult leader, lol. Someone who plays on things like "peace", "nonviolence", "nonhatred" but then leads his follwoers into a comfort zone from where there is no escape. Ie shower them with gifts, provide for them so they never leave, never get angry even when others do etc. So in other words he wields power over them but never admits it or uses that word or never lets them go.

    Another form of delta evil would be vindictiveness, but in an indirect manner, possibly taken out on those who dont deserve it. Ie there was this Ne-INFj girl back at my acting school that would constaantly bicker and critisize me, but in a way that the teachers would approve of, ie would ALWAYS be on my ass about every single mistake that I made and of course teachers loved that because she did their job for them. I hate her and probably will for the rest of my existence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Well, I sorta want OUT of the bottom of the abyss, and feel like my life is about trying to get out of it, which might help explain why I have/had (apparently) Gamma parents and ended up marrying a Delta. Mostly I want people to see how we are all complicit in this human story, regardless of how we feel about it, or how we judge or assess it.

    The only reason I brought up the idea that the abyss is a loop was as a response to the implication that Delta is just free and clear of the phenomenon of human darkness. All of us are human, and all of us are part and parcel of it--it is a collective phenomenon. And I think that by resisting or denying something, we tend to strengthen it.


    Delta is deep, sometimes it's almost scary. I must admit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dolphin
    So they turn their backs to the abyss, a primitive sort of wisdom as they staunchly hold their place while echoes of the revelry/despair come floating up from below.
    Those raw emotions they let out are the combined sum of eternal suffering.
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