I find it horribly ironic

[Cuddly McFluffles]

...that a household run by two quadra people could so discourage self-expression. With the uber-religious LSI, we aren't allowed to express an emotion that the Bible didn't condone. The hyper-sensitive ESE is allowed to rant and yell at us, but we can't yell or be mean back, or even necessarily be honest to her about what she does to piss us off. I snapped at her once, and it sent her into martyr mode. 9_9 And yes, this is a bitch thread.

(This isn't really Delta-centric, but I didn't want to put it in General Discussion.)

[Galen]

Yeah religion can do some really bad things to people.

[crazedrat]

One function of Fe is to regulate expression. ESEs Fe.. alpha Fe is more regulated than beta Fe which is is more rebellious. ESEs are the passive wives who overlook serious problems for years with phony optimism. LSIs do value Fe but it's really so weak in them I wouldnt consider that a contradiction. I've known really unhealthy people to act aggressive / persecutory toward their dual function, actually. I grew up with an ESE and LSI mom / dad. It took a ton of rebelling over years to wear them down to where I can now do / say anything around them.

[Beautiful sky]

...that a household run by two quadra people could so discourage self-expression. With the uber-religious LSI, we aren't allowed to express an emotion that the Bible didn't condone. The hyper-sensitive ESE is allowed to rant and yell at us, but we can't yell or be mean back, or even necessarily be honest to her about what she does to piss us off. I snapped at her once, and it sent her into martyr mode. 9_9 And yes, this is a bitch thread.

(This isn't really Delta-centric, but I didn't want to put it in General Discussion.)

I agree with you Ryene. My ESE sister yells and throws such extreme tantrum attacks and has extremes of all emotions, but I can never yell back at her when I feel frustrated at how she expresses her anger towards my nephew. It upsets me that she doesn't get that he is ISTp and an Fi valuer so her yelling is not going to make him do anything except to be more rebellious. I gave her a few books on parenting styles and I'm hoping that she figures out that she needs to fake Fi in order to not raise a neurotic son. I guess, in a huge way, I substitute Fi by my mild emotional tone. My LSI brother in law loves emotions, but finds that my sister's emotions are inappropriately displayed. He would rather her display her emotions in such a way where his "position" and "ranking" in hierarchy as the father and head of the family is honored or respected. My sister, not giving two cents about boundaries, yells at him when there's company around the home, embarrassing him and driving away the guest..not much of Fi valuing if you tell me...and my brother in law yells back saying, "who are you to yell at me. This is my home." WOW it's just not a very good match even though rarely, now it's just getting less frequent as time goes on, they have those quiet and reflective Ti discussions. I would have hoped a better match for both and this is why I love socionics. It gives me a window into the future of relationships and how they can potentially unfold.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Yeah religion can do some really bad things to people.

I know good religious people. The problem, IMO, is that some people feel it's okay to bludgeon others with their religion, and they don't realize how many they repulse by those tactics.

--------------------------------

In retrospect, my parents did what they could to meet our physical needs but failed rather spectacularly when it came to our emotional needs. Still do, in some ways.

[Marie84]

I think I've mentioned it to you before but to reiterate, I go through the same ordeal with my very religious LSI father; it's not the religious aspect that's bothersome but the "us against them" mentality and belief in absolutism.

When it comes to matters of faith, or lack of, I'm in the opinion that "ism's" are not truths as there is no way of actually proving their accuracy, but I could see how LSI, and the Beta rational pairing in general, doesn't generally make that sort of distinguishable.
I really haven't mastered a way to deal with their style but to simply try to ignore it, knowing that they have already decided that they are right and any rational thrown at them will be impenetrable; it really is just a waste of time and energy to "battle" with them, especially since it many cases they actually seem to enjoy an outlet to preach their arbitrary philosophies and assertions

and to be fair, I can sort of admire them for their steadfast confidence in their self-accuracy

[Ave]

Im not sure what you're referring to exactly.

[Singu]

One function of Fe is to regulate expression. ESEs Fe.. alpha Fe is more regulated than beta Fe which is is more rebellious. ESEs are the passive wives who overlook serious problems for years with phony optimism. LSIs do value Fe but it's really so weak in them I wouldnt consider that a contradiction. I've known really unhealthy people to act aggressive / persecutory toward their dual function, actually. I grew up with an ESE and LSI mom / dad. It took a ton of rebelling over years to wear them down to where I can now do / say anything around them.

Though that has more to do with them being unhealthy than anything else. If a person yells at you but you can't yell back, then that kind of behavior doesn't really make any sense, and the person is basically trying to have the cake and eat it too, by not having to deal with the consequences of their actions or being confronted with their problems. Gradually, you'll need to make them realize that their behavior is not fair and doesn't make any sense. Only a person who is feeling entitled, and is feeling above the necessities of everyone else can act that way. But once you gradually make them realize this... then they would calm down, and their anger or irritation would disappear. But be careful though, suddenly being confronted with a conflict may send them into a temporary panic.

[Exodus]

...that a household run by two quadra people could so discourage self-expression. With the uber-religious LSI, we aren't allowed to express an emotion that the Bible didn't condone. The hyper-sensitive ESE is allowed to rant and yell at us, but we can't yell or be mean back, or even necessarily be honest to her about what she does to piss us off. I snapped at her once, and it sent her into martyr mode. 9_9 And yes, this is a bitch thread.

(This isn't really Delta-centric, but I didn't want to put it in General Discussion.)

Are you sure the second person is ESE? It seems unusual for an ESE to be 'hyper-sensitive' and martyr-y. Maybe she's SEE or ESI?

That being said, this is obviously not completely type-related. Religious zealots come in all forms.

[Absurd]

Religious zealots come in all forms.

Shapes and sizes even.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Are you sure the second person is ESE? It seems unusual for an ESE to be 'hyper-sensitive' and martyr-y. Maybe she's SEE or ESI?

That being said, this is obviously not completely type-related. Religious zealots come in all forms.

Basically, she tends to handle things in an irrational manner. Tell her something she doesn't want to hear, and she overreacts, sulks, invalidates your feelings, or some combination of the above. By martyr-y, I mean that she acts all hurt when her weapons are turned against her. She does have a tendency to try and guilt-trip/make stupid sulky jabs, too.

Agreed.

[silverchris9]

When it comes to matters of faith, or lack of, I'm in the opinion that "ism's" are not truths as there is no way of actually proving their accuracy, but I could see how LSI, and the Beta rational pairing in general, doesn't generally make that sort of distinguishable.
I really haven't mastered a way to deal with their style but to simply try to ignore it, knowing that they have already decided that they are right and any rational thrown at them will be impenetrable; it really is just a waste of time and energy to "battle" with them, especially since it many cases they actually seem to enjoy an outlet to preach their arbitrary philosophies and assertions

and to be fair, I can sort of admire them for their steadfast confidence in their self-accuracy

Hm. I think that the bold especially is an area of legitimate quadra conflict (or quadra-inspired/related conflict), where neither side is right, just different. I personally disagree with the notion that something can't be true unless it can be proven to be accurate. (Proven how? According to what standard? etc.)

Not caring for your children's emotional needs, and not paying enough attention to notice when you're hurting them, however, is NTR, and is very not okay.

Also, ESEs are frequently martyr-y. I find that to be one of their most annoying qualities. At least EIEs are aware when they're being martyr-y and consciously play it up. ESEs act like they really are martyrs, and it's just like... um, no. This is not a grave injustice that has been perpetrated against you. It's just life. Get over it, por favor.

Also also, good point from crazed that ESEs especially use Fe to reduce/regulate emotional agitation and reach an equilibrium point (Fe + Si), as opposed to EIEs, who use Fe to increase emotional motion and energy in order to have something interesting to observe/learn/understand/whatever (Fe + Ni, also Se-valuing).

[Bluenoir]

...that a household run by two quadra people could so discourage self-expression. With the uber-religious LSI, we aren't allowed to express an emotion that the Bible didn't condone. The hyper-sensitive ESE is allowed to rant and yell at us, but we can't yell or be mean back, or even necessarily be honest to her about what she does to piss us off. I snapped at her once, and it sent her into martyr mode. 9_9 And yes, this is a bitch thread.

(This isn't really Delta-centric, but I didn't want to put it in General Discussion.)

This is not as rare as you would imagine. When a person becomes angry at even the most trivial of challenges to a world view, this to me is an indication of some level of insecurity they have with the belief.

I personally disagree with the notion that something can't be true unless it can be proven to be accurate. (Proven how? According to what standard? etc.)

I and most agnostic/skeptics ect, never say such a thing. What I actually say is if something cain't be demonstrated, then belief in it's truth value is arbitrary. I don't say it can't be true, it's just a definitive position on the issue is not justified untill more information becomes available.