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    Default Revolutionaries

    The act of uprising and fighting the established rulers (or external aggressors) is stereotypically a Beta thing. This is probably connected to their / valuing. Especially the motivates people to rebel against, rather than endure, whatever is not okay, imho.

    But I read that a lot of LIIs were actually famous revolutionaries (Robespierre, Garibaldi, ect.) even if they have as polr. But shouldn't this actually make the individual hate violence (like INFjs)? The sense of justice comes from the leading , but aren't those actions more typical for LSIs?
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    Se is also what you use when you realize that the threat of violence/roughness makes a certain way of behaving a stupid thing to do. Se PoLR is more like an obliviousness to such factors than a fearful awareness.

    there is also the issue that "violence" isn't a fool-proof description of what Se is about.

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    Alpha/Beta = Offense
    Gamma/Delta = Defense
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    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

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    pat generalizations = often wrong

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    there is also the issue that "violence" isn't a fool-proof description of what Se is about.
    Of course, it's also not just violence I was thinking of. Power, influence, territory, to resolutely make a stand against something, ect. I connect all this to Se. I thought in these 'roles' I was talking about, LIIs can become quite similar to LSIs.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Alpha/Beta = Offense
    Gamma/Delta = Defense
    How do you get to this idea?
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    there is also the issue that "violence" isn't a fool-proof description of what Se is about.
    I don't think he meant that, that necessarily revolution means violence. Gammas are the least inclined to initiate or relate (unless some gain) to revolutions, though they're Se/Ni valuers.
    ---

    Normally, the idea to revolutionize things is based on the dichotomy-with-no-name which is called by some people "Alpha values/Gamma values", aka Merry,Judicious/Serious,Decisive, aka independence/establishment, aka intrinsic/extrinsic. Because Alphas has both Rational and Irrational functions "independent", they don't usually have any compulsion to impose this, to generalize their views, to establish anything. Imagine that a revolution is the struggle to establish something - the way you find as "correct" - over the previous establishment globally.

    Very often the ideologies for revolutions (not "revolutionary ideas") were created by Alphas. Betas are generally very active selectors, rather than innovators, they take such ideas and want to implement them, but be aware that they're not necessary "against the system" - but simply they have a high awareness of "how things ought be" based on their reasoning (Ti/Fe, independent, Rational), so whether their ideology contradicts the establishments or other challenging ideologies it's just an arbitrary matter, all they do is to see them applied for their all environment (Se/Ni, Irrationally establish). As we know, Betas may be either fierce defenders of the system/hierarchy or eager activists against it, rarely in-between.
    ---

    For Serious quadras (Te/Fi), "how things ought be" means only "how things are, what works, what's know as good" - they can't make the difference (the ideology itself is based on establishment or habit - that also means that they're very prone to be influenced by constant peaceful activism, eg underground manifestos, press). The establishment applies to their ideology, however, it does not apply to their perception on society. Therefore, this is why they adapt the most easily to new establishments (the stereotype of the worker, builder who doesn't have any reasons to question the social status quo), very prone to spontaneous riots, but they don't relate to revolutionary ideologies more than with the hope that the oppression will cease and they will hopefully be left alone and not imposed by someone.
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    Thanks, this is pretty intersting actually. That makes sense, and these explanations fit with my ideas about the quadras as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt View Post
    Because Alphas has both Rational and Irrational functions "independent", they don't usually have any compulsion to impose this, to generalize their views, to establish anything.
    I don't really understand what you mean by this. If Alphas have that, doesn't this mean every other quadra has this 'idependent' part too?
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    I don't really understand what you mean by this. If Alphas have that, doesn't this mean every other quadra has this 'idependent' part too?
    No, that applies only to Ti/Fe and Ne/Si. That's in fact the idea. Maybe I'm not being clear enough, but:
    - independent Rational (Merry): ideologies, views that make sense/is consistent to you, independent conclusions, what is logically consistent, regardless of whether it is known (to work), accepted by others or not, understanding;
    - establishment Rational (Serious): what you know already, what people know, what is known (to work), "what else?", learning;
    - independent Irrational (Judicious): independence, non-imposition, lack of standards, what you consider to be good you do for yourself, you're just concerned on the society as a whole only if something else is imposed upon you (which often means that you're not "compliant", not necessarily exploited);
    - establishment Irrational (Decisive): awareness of "the best", standards, wanting that all people be in a similar framework, relate in values, that your accomplishments are recognized - imagine what big dump take a random Amazonian tribe on your Cambridge degree let alone that you're Steve Jobs/Bill Gates -, that your capacity/position/skills can work everywhere, compliance.
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    Okay, I got it now. So a scale indicating functional independence would look like this:

    most independend----------medium independent----------least independent
    -----Alpha----------------------Beta/Delta------------------Gamma------
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Why the scale? They apply at different things. But yeah, overall it was told only about Alphas that they don't relate to establishments (in the descriptions & al), while one way or another, the other three quadras relate to it.

    (off-topic: you again sound Te/Serious, exactly like my ILI friend - attempting to somehow try them on an single scale )
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt View Post
    Why the scale? They apply at different things. But yeah, overall it was told only about Alphas that they don't relate to establishments (in the descriptions & al), while one way or another, the other three quadras relate to it.
    I didn't want to say that would be a disadvantage or drawback of Gamma. That's just what you said, put in a scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt View Post
    (off-topic: you again sound Te/Serious, exactly like my ILI friend - attempting to somehow try them on an single scale )
    *sigh* Yeah, I'm curretnly reading Gulenko's descriptions of LII and ILI in German.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    I didn't want to say that would be a disadvantage or drawback of Gamma. That's just what you said, put in a scale.
    Hehe. I forgot to mention something: in my observations, Gammas are often the first/best to bring novelty or progress. The ones who "revolutionize" different fields. In fact, there's basically nothing other types/quadras can do that Gammas can't emulate, and this is based on the same thing, the completely unified view on everything. They reject specialization and limitation to a certain field. I keep seeing Gammas all the time in modern art, innovation. They can synthesize, compile, everything what happened, was said or occurred (authors, works, ideologies, etc) in a manner that that they can generate ("emulate" is very precise) such events or ideas that appeared either spontaneously of from precise causes or needs, which they are not even required to know. Gammas are very content of the environment they're living in, paradoxically this make them change it: because they acknowledge virtually everything as "good", this is includes the evolution that made things as they are, which inseminate in their personality a constant desire for progress. Progress is premeditated, unlike need, accident or occurrence.

    So the point is that we're talking about what's inherent in these types, not what they do (not claiming that you don't know this, just saying). If it was possible to give a Gamma a book called "How To Make a Revolution/Revolutions in a Nutshell/Revolutions for Dummies" - he will do that more professionally than a Beta .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt View Post
    Hehe. I forgot to mention something: in my observations, Gammas are often the first/best to bring novelty or progress. The ones who "revolutionize" different fields. In fact, there's basically nothing other types/quadras can do that Gammas can't emulate, and this is based on the same thing, the completely unified view on everything.
    If you mean the same as I do, I've thought about this before. This ability to 'mimicry' what others do, but interpret it in an own, personal way. Take this as an example: If you see a little gadget you haven't known before, the people show you what it does but not how it works. Then you think about that and try to reach the same result (the functioning machine) with your own way because the original way isn't familiar to you. I think you meant it in a more abstract way, like applying systems or methods which aren't originally known to the person...
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Betas are more likely to "revolutionize" things, while Gammas profit from it. Apple is a good example of a Beta (NF) company. Whether they have actually "revolutionized" something is up to debate, but they did disrupt the industry with their "revolutionary" products. I'd suppose Delta is a kind of jack-of-all-trades Quadra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    The act of uprising and fighting the established rulers (or external aggressors) is stereotypically a Beta thing. This is probably connected to their / valuing. Especially the motivates people to rebel against, rather than endure, whatever is not okay, imho.

    But I read that a lot of LIIs were actually famous revolutionaries (Robespierre, Garibaldi, ect.) even if they have as polr. But shouldn't this actually make the individual hate violence (like INFjs)? The sense of justice comes from the leading , but aren't those actions more typical for LSIs?
    I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians typed a lot of LIIs as LSIs, judging from Weisband's description. You should trust your own judgment over some typing that someone made 25 years ago.

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    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    There's a bad habit of oversimplifying quadra progression into a linear sequence (as a development process that goes α → β → γ → δ); it rarely works out this way in practice.
    What I said has nothing to do with quadra progression, neither MegaDoomer's as far as I can tell, so stop this circus. (FYI, the quadra historical progression I acknowledge is Alpha -> Beta -> Delta -> Gamma, it is based on observations instead of simplification of the quadrantic proximities, everyone who I discussed the matter with should know this already) The only thing emerging as related to this progression is the fact that usually Alpha generates the ancestors of totally new ideologies, while Beta rather picks them up by social means, being, obviously, not a premise, but a detail for the sake of completeness.
    As far as I can tell, MegaDoomer's premise was this common view that Beta have this revolutionary potential, which is observable (IMO) and traces back to the ex-Soviet socionists, IIRC. It's not just made-up or fully deduced by us.
    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    If you mean the same as I do, I've thought about this before. This ability to 'mimicry' what others do, but interpret it in an own, personal way. Take this as an example: If you see a little gadget you haven't known before, the people show you what it does but not how it works. Then you think about that and try to reach the same result (the functioning machine) with your own way because the original way isn't familiar to you. I think you meant it in a more abstract way, like applying systems or methods which aren't originally known to the person...
    Hmm it's close, I suppose, but I rather meant something new than necessarily identical to what's known, still based on the same kind of "rules" which are not the actual causes. Compare, in 3D software technology, scanline or raytracing renderers (rays are emitted from the camera, instead of the lights) with physically accurate ones. The former, which are much faster, are not strictly based on optical laws, but create the image of the scene based on some algorithms that simply *can* recreate them as they appear to people. You just look in all the knowledge database and figure out what can recreate that, without. The same thing you could tell about artificial intelligence, those "people" don't actually feel like having a snack or something. Oh, and Lara Croft became a sex-symbol without even being born on this earth.
    Don't take these examples as representative, it's just what comes to my mind that you can make the connection, not everything is technology-related. Besides, these algorithms can be extrapolated to create imaginary "natural" things that are actually impossible in reality (how's Gulenko, btw? ).
    ---

    Now, the distant future and very different alternative present times (detailed past, too) can be envisaged only through this unified perception of time, possibilities and causality through Ni - regardless of type - but exclusively with the support of Te and Fe, as far as I can tell.

    - The first case is specific to Gammas, as they have both Ni and Te valued: Te makes them base their views exclusively on known facts, but all known facts - so that contradictions with the actual provable things can be avoided, in most of the cases; this makes their visions rich in detail, "earthly" and justifiable, but - how to put this - God would not believe them all . Human factual knowledge is extremely limited and, for instance, aliens - if we meet them - will probably look nothing like we imagine. The missing bits are pieces are put together by Fi, mostly though anthropocentrism, I don't even attempt to enumerate the huge amount of such beliefs, but if you want some examples: the idea that we could be an experiment of aliens, or that some commodities we have today will be found in the future, familiar themes, etc. For the record, "familiar" is both Fi and Te - I guess it denotes them better than "established" - so the discerning the difference requires acumen.

    - The second type of vision is specific to Beta (valued Ni paired with Fe). It makes an appeal to our wishes, desires, ideals, even aesthetics. It is normally attempted to implement it quickly, with no respect for factual status or precedent evolution, as the only logical principles they are based on are almost entirely conceptual. My observations reveal that Betas are always in a search for a stable support/justification/meaning for their life and purpose, it can be law, it can be scientific discoveries, very often their roots or how we were "supposed to be". When they need historical justification, they make big steps back in time, dismissing the recent past as the cause of all the problems. Indeed, when the present does not match your philosophical expectations (which is often the case of Fe/Ti valuers), you can easily find the agents that participated in developing the current state of things in the recent events, their elimination being the first thing to do. To implement these visions, it is required to make an appeal to the emotions and impressionability of the masses, make them empathize, bits-and-pieces being filled, like I said, with "universal" - and rather preventive than factual - principles (Ti): scientific discoveries, justice, security, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    And as far as revolutions go, there are many different kinds of revolutions: Are they all symptomatic of β-quadra? Doubtful. For example, the seminal ideas that drove the French Revolution came from an IEI (Jacques Rousseau), while the revolution itself was apparently initiated by an LII (Maximilien Robespierre), and ultimately ended by an SLE (Napoleon Bonaparte).
    Hmm, I didn't necessarily meant the revolution itself but rather the attitude which is connected with it. I've read (Weisband's description) that LIIs can be fierce defenders of justice and can represent the 'typical' revolutionary. However, many revolutions cause a lot of chaos and are often (but not always) connected with forcing others to do what you or your groups wants. Since LIIs don't like to act in such a way I've thought this is a contradiction. However, if the LII thinks he would actually 'liberate' others... that might justify the means.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians typed a lot of LIIs as LSIs, judging from Weisband's description. You should trust your own judgment over some typing that someone made 25 years ago.
    Yes, this shouldn't be forgotten. Weisband's texts are among the oldest socionics descriptions and are considered to be outdated by some people. They are also fully based on the self-image of the types because they were written with the help of a large questionare if I recall correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt View Post
    As far as I can tell, MegaDoomer's premise was this common view that Beta have this revolutionary potential, which is observable (IMO) and traces back to the ex-Soviet socionists, IIRC. It's not just made-up or fully deduced by us.
    Yeah, it was mainly this typical 'role' of Beta, the idea of the LII as a common revolutionary figure and my doubts that LII are actually comfortable with all the aspects of revolutions which let me make this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt View Post
    Hmm it's close, I suppose, but I rather meant something new than necessarily identical to what's known, still based on the same kind of "rules" which are not the actual causes. Compare, in 3D software technology, scanline or raytracing renderers (rays are emitted from the camera, instead of the lights) with physically accurate ones. The former, which are much faster, are not strictly based on optical laws, but create the image of the scene based on some algorithms that simply *can* recreate them as they appear to people. You just look in all the knowledge database and figure out what can recreate that, without. The same thing you could tell about artificial intelligence, those "people" don't actually feel like having a snack or something. Oh, and Lara Croft became a sex-symbol without even being born on this earth.
    Don't take these examples as representative, it's just what comes to my mind that you can make the connection, not everything is technology-related. Besides, these algorithms can be extrapolated to create imaginary "natural" things that are actually impossible in reality.
    So you're basically talking about the Matrix? Yeah, I understood what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt View Post
    (how's Gulenko, btw? ).
    If you mean the descriptions: pretty good. I like them.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I brought it up since the stereotypical view on quadra progression says β = revolutionary quadra. Conversely, speaking outside the context of quadra progression… any argument of β as a 'revolutionary quadra', necessitates checking the coherency of that claim w/ respect to the bigger picture of the Socion as a whole, in order to verify its consilience and ultimately establish whether it makes sense or not. Hence, any question of a quadra's societal role is going to be immutably tied to questions of quadra progression.
    The quadra progression is not required to understand it, that's just your personal rationalization. Socionics (at least the classical one) does not teach of any information/resources flow along the full Socion, while the theory often pointed this nuance out, as far as I know.
    "Revolutionary spirit", for instance (not necessary meaning that Betas have it, but the potential/inclinations/fitness), is something that can be determined irrespective of Socionics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I don't think anybody 'creates' totally new ideas or ideologies; everything is recycled and refactored from older preexisting forms and components thereof, with minor modifications and additions. I gather that anybody who sincerely believes otherwise, either isn't very educated or experienced, and/or is a plagiarizing egomaniac; as ILE Einstein revealed: "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." The true spirit of α-quadra 'creativity' at its finest.
    First, Einstein was a gross plagiarist himself and not representing the Alpha quadra. Hence you make the false assumption that he had original ideas while he was stating somehow the contrary - that's because his work was based on the works of others (Poincaré, Lorentz). The "fact" you state was politically established (as Einstein's "genius" was).

    Totally new ideas actually exist, simple case: the ideas that don't have applicability in one's own time, which history abounds in, but only when they're not created by fancy reasoning, philosophical freedom to mix together human knowledge (eg "people will maybe fly, as long as other animals can"). They include those new postulates that make strict sense through conceptual reasoning, but need to change the world to be acknowledged. Please don't overlook the underlined, they make the difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by slightly off-topic
    I found as relevant the discovery of discreetness of some physical quantities made by Max Plank (who I type as LII, ftr). It was inconceivable up to him that these "continuous" amounts are fundamentally/really/actually quantized. Plank is actually an example of someone who *can* accept/use totally original ideas, which defy anything that is known, otherwise he was very conservative and was accepting facts exclusively. He was actually refusing to acknowledge his own discovery for a long time, because it appeared to him as a very likely human convention.

    Ha, but now we have Ludwig Boltzmann, a defender of truth and a great example of ILI, if you ask me. He was the first to suggest that energy may be quantized. Why to me Planck's solution was "Alpha" and Boltzmann's was "Gamma"? Simply because Boltzmann just made a suggestion like any other, a solution that "works", an appeal to human knowledge that can explain something. To Planck, who was actually a detractor of Boltzmann (basically to him, what Boltzmann was saying was bullshit, not the "real thing", a human construct), it later occurred that quantization is not just a way to formalize the inconsistencies, but an actual, real phenomenon. He is known to have attempted establishing compromises/consensus between the scientists in incompatible matters, suggesting that it's possible to have different technically correct views on the same thing.

    Concluding, the difference stands in:
    - Boltzmann: "this can be explained by X" - where X is required to exist in human knowledge. His quantization was formal, mathematical;
    - Planck: "this can't be explained but by X" - now X is not required to exist in human knowledge, it may exist or it may be required to discover it. Only his quantization was actually physical.

    (don't confuse physical with "empirical" or mathematical with "logical")
    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    In all honesty though, I don't see how any quadra can fairly be considered the 'innovative' one. It's self-evident they all borrow, copy, refine, and derive methods and concepts from and between one another.
    By definition, descriptions, big picture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Naturally, I talk about it because I do find it interesting and I suspect there's probably something to it. None of us quite knows how it works yet so I see little justification for making any real non-tentative assertions at this point. Opinionated flatulence will have to do I guess.
    That's your problem, to me it makes sense. It's probably a coincidence that my conclusions match classical Socionics, still I think that you have no justification to claim that "none of us quite knows", apart from your own ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    In short: It is obvious that taking knowledge seriously, necessarily implies taking seriously limitations of knowledge. For instance: why in the fuck do you think people like Korpsey post those neuroscience articles on cognitive biases, or that adapted version of the elephant poem you utterly missed the point on? Maybe you get it now.
    Acknowledging human limitations and possible errors is reasonable, concluding that everybody is wrong in all matters is utter stupidity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Hopefully that made sense. Though I'm only playing devil's advocate against myself here; like you, I tend to believe they'd probably look and behave like things we aren't apt to imagine. They could be a race of telepathic dolphins, or crystallized masses of collective lichen, or strange nonlocal quantum entities of undifferentiated consciousness; fuckall if I'm going to pretend to know.
    It may be or may be not. Yes, I have no reason to believe that no universal principle which generates all intelligent life human-like exists, but neither that it does. Otherwise I don't see how is this relevant to what I said: I was explaining how these values manifest, while you do a similar mistake to "what will happen when type XXX and YYY meet?". You can't exactly predict even what will happen when two certain people you know will meet - it depends on time, conditions -, let alone two people of their types (be it sociotype, gender, age, subculture, etc).

    To keep it short, even it possibly not totally accurate: I think you're on wrong side of the hedge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians typed a lot of LIIs as LSIs, judging from Weisband's description. You should trust your own judgment over some typing that someone made 25 years ago.
    oops, that should be the other way around, obviously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    The act of uprising and fighting the established rulers (or external aggressors) is stereotypically a Beta thing. This is probably connected to their / valuing. Especially the motivates people to rebel against, rather than endure, whatever is not okay, imho.

    But I read that a lot of LIIs were actually famous revolutionaries (Robespierre, Garibaldi, ect.) even if they have as polr. But shouldn't this actually make the individual hate violence (like INFjs)? The sense of justice comes from the leading , but aren't those actions more typical for LSIs?
    Im not about robespierre being LII. I dont know what his type is.

    Social paradigm shift is a beta thing, but why are you saying that it is linked only to and ? By that arguement, shouldnt gammas also be revolutionaries?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    Im not about robespierre being LII. I dont know what his type is.
    I'd believe he is LII. I've learned a bit about him at school (not very much, though). And I also know not every example which is chosen to represent a type is 100% undebatable but still, many socionists agreed that he is a clear LII.

    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    Social paradigm shift is a beta thing, but why are you saying that it is linked only to and ? By that arguement, shouldnt gammas also be revolutionaries?
    That would be the logical conclusion, yes. However, I don't see Gammas as revolutionaries like Betas, even though they also value /. I've thought could be used to 'see' about the further development of a nation/state and the potential of change that lies in the hands of the people. The might serve as the motivation to fight or protest rather than to do nothing. I'm not so sure about that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    oops, that should be the other way around, obviously.
    I think the main difference between the two is that LIIs acknowledge that you most likely may have had no opportunity/possibility to read the Constitution/proclamation/rules while LISs don't. The LSI machine doesn't work for particular cases, therefore it's more efficient .
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post


    That would be the logical conclusion, yes. However, I don't see Gammas as revolutionaries like Betas, even though they also value /. I've thought could be used to 'see' about the further development of a nation/state and the potential of change that lies in the hands of the people. The might serve as the motivation to fight or protest rather than to do nothing. I'm not so sure about that.
    So how exactly does and keep one from being a revolutionary all the while valueing and ? Or that precisscly what you're not sure about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    Or that precisscly what you're not sure about?
    Yeah. I think I haven't put enough though in this thread from the beginning. I actually didn't think much about Gamma because I mainly wondered about the 'revolutionary' mind of LIIs and their -polr, which should actually cause them to avoid confrontation. But a revolution, an uprising against the state, so to speak, is definitely a confrontation. I can't really tell why Betas appear to be more revolutionary compared to Gamma even though they share two valued functions, sorry.
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    ok

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Just because the world at large doesn't recognize the idea yet, doesn't make the idea 'new'. Many basic ideas existed only in the fringes of a small minority of minds for thousands of years before they finally emerged onto the world (at which point everyone takes it as an 'obvious given' once that's the case… even though they weren't saying that a mere generation ago, etc.). Naturally, some still lay in wait for a day when the world will be suitable for it. And of course there's also the legion of bad ideas that keep reappearing every generation or two in different incarnations…
    Well, if you argue this way, you could almost say that not a single idea is new. In all the years in which mankind existed I think every possibility has been (at least) considered, even though if it was ridiculous given the place and age when it was conceived. I agree, there is the right time for every idea, it just needs the right people and the right purpose to apply it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Who ever said 'everybody is wrong in all matters'? I surely didn't; I think you're misunderstanding what's being said here. This has to do with respecting limits of attainable certainty, not a fiat decree that 'everybody is wrong on anything no matter what'. If I say for instance that I can only know X is true under Y conditions with 90% certainty, that only means there's a 10% chance I could possibly be wrong. Depending on what it is, 90% might be 'good enough' to act on and regard as true. But I go forward knowing there will always be a 'deeper' level of reality or knowledge about it, that if I knew it, would approximate even greater certainty and ontological clarity.
    ...
    If you accept that's true, why do you have such a hard time understanding when I say that "nobody can quite know <blah blah>"?
    Because what you call "that" is a specific conclusion and is backed by precise reasoning and facts, with no connection to other "blah blah". Yours, and that elephant story are just nonsensical generalization myths on the human condition with no place here. If I had an interest in relativism, or whether truth exists or not, I'd have posted in the philosophy section.

    Get used to the idea that your "philosophical" gibberish works with some, but not with others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    Yeah. I think I haven't put enough though in this thread from the beginning. I actually didn't think much about Gamma because I mainly wondered about the 'revolutionary' mind of LIIs and their -polr, which should actually cause them to avoid confrontation. But a revolution, an uprising against the state, so to speak, is definitely a confrontation. I can't really tell why Betas appear to be more revolutionary compared to Gamma even though they share two valued functions, sorry.
    Maybe I'm over generalizing..


    But Alpha and Beta share -Se
    (T)Se Object against the subject

    Cold spatial / volitional logic. In theory, they are preoccupied and focused on the individuals who seek to gain power and establish a tyrannous rule. -Se types react with a cold touch and so would be the offenders, the over-throwers, the obstacles.

    In regards to LII, PoLR -Se I see as fearing the worst of someone rising to power, so they constantly keep track of certain individuals and may even do something drastic() to keep that from happening.

    As for Gamma/Delta, +Se
    (F)Se Subject against the object

    Warm spatial / volitional ethics. In theory, they are preoccupied and focused on the collective power of the environment. They do not fear individual power so much as they know where the real power lies and who has it. +Se types react with a warm touch which can be regarded as being on the defense, standing up for yourself; they are the defenders, the protectors.

    In regards to EII, PoLR +Se I see as fearing dangerous environments rather than dangerous people, so they seek to protect themselves or move to safe places.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post

    In regards to EII, PoLR +Se I see as fearing dangerous environments rather than dangerous people, so they seek to protect themselves or move to safe places.
    Yes and that's why you'll hardly see me run away from people (as I work to bring them closer to ideals) and why I love the territorial protective nature of Delta men. My SLI X guarded the house with any slight hearing of suspicious noises. He jumped up so often at night. Even the area I chose to live in is safe because many family and friends as well as people who know them live here; my unit is clean and aesthetically pleasing but the #1 was that it's safe. Just a couple of blocks away is a cleaner part of town but much more isolated. And here I was thinking it was because I loved being around people

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    -Se takes down power when it rises.
    +Se takes down power when it becomes offensive.
    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

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    My one socionics post per month.

    About 10 years ago(?) Bukalov noticed a flaw in the structure of model A; a mathematical inconsistency in the entire formula of the equation revolving around the E v.s. I dichotomy. He figured that if a mathematical connection between two functions, specifically the primary and the creative function in this scenario, caused a function to lean a certain direction; then the opposite side of that functional domain had to be repressed. This may sound like gibberish but this means that; if for example Ti and Ne combine to create a unique version of Ti and Ne; then the equation could only be balanced by the strong unconscious function being an exact mirror of that Ti and Ne. So if Ti and Ne combined to create a unique equations via association; then that association had to have a opposite equation of Ti and Ne in which the person based their id structure on.

    This means that if Ti and Ne combined to create -Ti and +Ne; the subconscious has to mathematically stim from +Ti and -Ne; true dichotomies that occupy the same space on the introverted plane as opposed to Ti v.s. Te(which is basically simplified and incomplete; and not truly dichotomized on the same plane). Most people on this forum assume an imbalanced forum of the model; believing that it is possible to exist in one plane of space without existing in the others; but rationally speaking everything exists both in the introverted plane and the extroverted plane; both mathematically and via common sense. One cannot act without a mental component and one cannot mentalize without an external component. Hence why Ti and Te are linked together in Model B. If one sits still and quietly; the person is still displaying an overt behavior that is caused by mental components that are influencing the individuals actions; as also the environment is still taking in information to process.

    In summary, Ti and Te are not truly dichotomized, because they do not exist in the same plane. There has to be multiple forms of Ti that exist in the same space for the equation to make sense, otherwise the equation is imbalanced(especially with the way it is perceived on here). You dichotomizetraits as right v.s. wrong, black v.s. white..... things that exist in the same relative plane that is being analyzed.

    According to Model B, Alphas and Betas share their perceiving component; which causes them to typically be aggressive and destabilizing as opposed to the Delta Gamma component that causes an individual to be more protective and stabilizing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    In regards to LII, PoLR -Se I see as fearing the worst of someone rising to power, so they constantly keep track of certain individuals and may even do something drastic() to keep that from happening.
    Didn't you mean drastic ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt View Post
    Didn't you mean drastic ?
    Specifically, yes, I suppose so. But generally it would be flavored with . So yea -/+.

    Example of -


    The fears of an idealistic society
    Strike down the individual
    Moral oppression of cival rights
    Denial of our so called freedom increasing

    Eccentricity, is our cry of struggle
    Echoes from the Tower battlements
    Let them cast those who oppose the system
    Into the dark deep cells of insanity

    We shall escape this asylum, batter the walls of stone
    Bitter farewell to the asylum, social resistance

    Evade the elite armed forces
    Who mindlessly scan this vastness
    If discovered, use death as a first resort
    Disregard the rotten stench
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    In regards to LII, PoLR -Se I see as fearing the worst of someone rising to power, so they constantly keep track of certain individuals and may even do something drastic() to keep that from happening.
    Hmm, I haven't read much about +/- IEs, but this would fit pretty well with Hitta's post (which was interesting as well) if I got this right. Sounds like a possible explanation. Do you have a source for those +/- descriptions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    How do you get to this idea?
    It's interesting how you ask for HOW you get to something?

    That would make you a process type...
    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Process

    That's why I'm so attracted to ILI, because of their Te. Because I prefer process over result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    It's interesting how you ask for HOW you get to something?
    Well, I'm just interested in the reasoning behind the statement. I also prefer to read books/watch films from the beginning to the end. That's also 'process'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    Hmm, I haven't read much about +/- IEs, but this would fit pretty well with Hitta's post (which was interesting as well) if I got this right. Sounds like a possible explanation. Do you have a source for those +/- descriptions?
    Self-derived.

    TiSe vs FiSe.

    You can deduce the former would be more focused on the logic of the situation while the latter would be focused on the ethics.

    Although subject against the object / object against the subject came from a post here on the forums. I could find it, but I don't have a link at the ready.

    As for evidence, just look at tcaud .
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    Well, I'm just interested in the reasoning behind the statement. I also prefer to read books/watch films from the beginning to the end. That's also 'process'.
    It's odd that I huddle around process types more so than result even though result types are my close relations too, activity SLI, I don't really care to read or watch what the SLE are doing except on a rare occasion. Because, I find myself... (getting hungary and need to go to lunch ) BRB

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    @ESC: Okay, I just thought there might also be some 'official' information about that subject or maybe something written in Wikisocion. I've suspected that the Ti of a LII is different from the Ti of a LSI (for example) before, but I've only heard about +/- IEs until now without actually learning about it in detail.
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