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Thread: Capitalism - Alpha/Beta?

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    Default Capitalism - Alpha/Beta?

    Capitalism has been attributed to Gamma for being associated with the ability to accumulate money, power and wealth. But if you take another look, Capitalism is actually an Alpha/Beta economic system as it is fundamentally an expectation-conform economy.

    In Capitalism, the state of the economy is presented to officials and holders of capital and they analyze the status and conform to the expectations. The means of production and output are largely controlled by implicit factors.

    Communism/Socialism is a command-execute economic system and therefore Gamma/Delta. The means of production and output are controlled by explicit commands from the ruling party, whether or not these commands were necessitated by nature. Thus the economic actions are efficient as production only executes what it needs(or, more accurately, what the government says it needs).


    So, the question is, why is Capitalism so heavily associated with Gamma? Maybe because Gamma can observe the trends of the economy and capitalize on them to acquire objects of value, but Gamma still perceives the highly inefficient economic system of a democratic capitalist state.
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    empty words.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    So, the question is, why is Capitalism so heavily associated with Gamma?
    Because capitalism is associated with making money, and so is Gamma.

    Don't make it more difficult than it is.

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    I like neither Capitalism nor Communism (or Socialism), both are ineffective and/or unfair after all. But I know the two hardcore capitalists of this forum: CPig (ILI) and Ashton (LIE)
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    I just think it's an unjust generalization. I don't even like Capitalism and I'd rather we focus on producing what we need rather than stuff we don't need.

    I'm amazed at the lack of skepticism and willingness to expose it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Because capitalism is associated with making money, and so is Gamma.

    Don't make it more difficult than it is.
    Describing Evolution–Involution at this level will initially contrast deductive vs. inductive thinking. Unfortunately, the bulk of literature on this cognitive dichotomy treats it in at least two different senses. In the first sense, deduction is understood simply as a strict formal sequence or expository progression of thought (aka Socionics rationality), while induction is understood as conclusions stemming from practical experience (aka Socionics irrationality).

    I will frame this dichotomy in the second sense, namely as simplification vs. complication of thought structure. Meaning that in deductive thinking, given a set of simple and obvious statements (axioms, postulates), the resultant consequences can be necessarily derived (theorem). Reasoning flows in the direction of simple to complex. Evolutionary types therefore mentally complicate the situation.
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    Like/dislike of capitalism is mostly a matter of Left/Right orientation on the Nolan Chart or Political Compass, which seems largely unrelated to type.

    Divergence in political orientation between members of the same quadra can be quite extreme, as is seen in, for example, the difference in political views between Ayn Rand on one hand, and Stalin and Lenin on the other.

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    My ILI favors Capitalism over Communism. Capitalism is the "natural way," and Communism has to be forced on people. Capitalism (at least in its pure form)is generally more efficient, because of the law of Supply and Demand (or Demand and Supply). Whereas Communism may be more "fair," but not as effective when it comes to innovations and the advancement of technology.

    Capitalism breeds progress, whereas Communism breeds stagnation.
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    People that support communism in anything other than a far off, hypothetical, "what-if" kind of way are hard to come by these days.

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    Political views are not really type-related, but Betas usually don't like the idea of money and greed.

    I don't think that Deltas have any problems with Capitalism. Look at all the countries that tried Communism, they're all Betas. Look at the most hyper-Capitalist country in the world... America, Gamma.

    I think that Capitalism can offend Fe, because it can be a bit too systematic, impersonal and dehumanizing. It's all work work work and no rest. And that's basically Te. Emotional well-being are sacrificed for productivity.

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    Let's just say that all this ideology thing is 100% completely not type related and leave it at that?

    And America is every bit as gamma as it is fat, ignorant, stupid, etc... (i.e. these are stereotypes and silly to assert on the limited criteria you use, like lots of mcD's and higher obesity rates, lesser test scores etc which in no way represent the majority or the massive group of individuals that make up 'America'). Generalizing brings you further from the truth, not closer to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Political views are not really type-related, but Betas usually don't like the idea of money and greed.

    I don't think that Deltas have any problems with Capitalism. Look at all the countries that tried Communism, they're all Betas. Look at the most hyper-Capitalist country in the world... America, Gamma.

    I think that Capitalism can offend Fe, because it can be a bit too systematic, impersonal and dehumanizing. It's all work work work and no rest. And that's basically Te. Emotional well-being are sacrificed for productivity.
    Isn't that what is?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    but Betas usually don't like the idea of money and greed.
    Have you ever met an SLE ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
    Let's just say that all this ideology thing is 100% completely not type related and leave it at that?
    I'm saying that the system itself is theoretically Alpha/Beta. Not Capitalism applied in a Democracy.

    And America is every bit as gamma as it is fat, ignorant, stupid, etc... (i.e. these are stereotypes and silly to assert on the limited criteria you use, like lots of mcD's and higher obesity rates, lesser test scores etc which in no way represent the majority or the massive group of individuals that make up 'America'). Generalizing brings you further from the truth, not closer to it.
    I didn't say anything about America.
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    Everything Ashton said. Nooblets.

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    Oh, and think of a central planner as someone tasked with responding, one at a time, to individual packets of data from a computer that outputs 100,000,000 packets per second.

    That's all there is to it; it's logistically impossible to an absurd extent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    OP is woefully ill-informed and misguided.



    All of this is wrong. There is nothing "efficient" about command economies; central planners can't calculate optimal production of goods in absence of a pricing mechanism, which can only be properly attained via a decentralized market of free exchange.

    And considering that the most pivotal free-market advocates of the last few centuries have come from all quadras alike, I don't think there's anything intrinsically quadra-related about capitalism. It just happens to be the only recourse of economic organization that makes pragmatic or moral sense. Indeed, it's the only thing that could be considered an 'economic system'; its converse only defaults into plutocracy and barbarism.
    You're missing the point as is everyone else.

    Let me try again:
    Laissez-faire / Capitalism is a / economic theory. It is driven by implicit demands.

    Socialism is a / economic theory it is driven by explicit commands.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
    And America is every bit as gamma as it is fat, ignorant, stupid, etc... (i.e. these are stereotypes and silly to assert on the limited criteria you use, like lots of mcD's and higher obesity rates, lesser test scores etc which in no way represent the majority or the massive group of individuals that make up 'America'). Generalizing brings you further from the truth, not closer to it.
    I think that its culture has Gamma NT values, like Silicon Valley start-ups, culture of entrepreneurship, high risk, high reward kind of thing. I believe that the way you do business is quite different in Europe and Asia.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Isn't that what is?
    Not to Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Have you ever met an SLE ?
    I definitely know an SLE who doesn't like the idea of money... but it's not 100% type-related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Bottom line is: You're wrong. End of thread.
    Why bring absolutes into the discussion? I can just counter with relativity.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wrong

    wrong   
    [rawng, rong] Show IPA
    –adjective
    1.
    not in accordance with what is morally right or good: a wrong deed.
    2.
    deviating from truth or fact; erroneous: a wrong answer.


    Where do we derive truths and facts? The truth or fact of an event surely relies on a second party - an observer, as there is nothing to evaluate a statement otherwise. However, the moment an event is based on an observer's perspective, it becomes subjective and therefore relative. My point: From your perspective, I may be "wrong", but that has no bearing on the integrity of the actual matter.

    Not to mention this thread can go on until it is locked, the website closes down, or all willing contributors are prevented from further posting.

    Either acknowledge your subjective perspective and attempt to discuss this objectively or find another thread. I have no to time to deal with instances of intellectual ignorance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Bottom line is: You're wrong. End of thread.

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    This thread if full of fail stereotypes and comparisons.
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    I like neither Capitalism nor Communism (or Socialism), both are ineffective and/or unfair after all.
    Yeah me too.
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    So, the question is, why is Capitalism so heavily associated with Gamma? Maybe because Gamma can observe the trends of the economy and capitalize on them to acquire objects of value, but Gamma still perceives the highly inefficient economic system of a democratic capitalist state.
    First of all, we're not talking about true Communism, but Totalitarianism. True Communism was supposed to come naturally and commonly agreed, AFAIK. It is probably an utopia, but if you want something close to it, check the free software ecosystem or certain tribes.

    Capitalism is associated with Te, and for good reasons. This Logic can't process the concept of "how things ought be" .
    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    Capitalism breeds progress, whereas Communism breeds stagnation.
    Hmm depends on what you call "progress". Progress towards what?
    Most Communist Russians considered they were more advanced than the West, AFAIK. Also, National-Socialist Germany was competitive in all fields on can think of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    I don't think that Deltas have any problems with Capitalism. Look at all the countries that tried Communism, they're all Betas.
    Yeah, I agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    central planners can't calculate optimal production of goods in absence of a pricing mechanism
    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Oh, and think of a central planner as someone tasked with responding, one at a time, to individual packets of data from a computer that outputs 100,000,000 packets per second.

    That's all there is to it; it's logistically impossible to an absurd extent.
    But what if the central planner was a gigantic super computer made in Japan? What's stopping it and the boss minds of the world from central planning it up?
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    Politics is interesting because it is an overall representation of how a person currently views and interacts with their world. I guess I say this because I'm asking if you think type theory covers the essence of how a person will come to form viewpoints? Do you think this is a good idea?

    I think all types can form any political orientation, but that would have to mean type is essentially inherent and can not be shaped through experience for this to be allowed. And I reluctantly dismiss my thought now knowing an uncomfortable paradox because if type is then not inherent, then it can change, or rather it doesn't truly exist in a pure sense, but is just an approximation and a guess, one that can overlap and muddle with the effects of previous changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divided View Post
    I guess I say this because I'm asking if you think type theory covers the essence of how a person will come to form viewpoints? Do you think this is a good idea?
    We already have a man on the job. Right after he types Sephiroth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    But what if the central planner was a gigantic super computer made in Japan? What's stopping it and the boss minds of the world from central planning it up?
    Reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divided View Post
    And I reluctantly dismiss my thought now knowing an uncomfortable paradox because if type is then not inherent, then it can change, or rather it doesn't truly exist in a pure sense, but is just an approximation and a guess, one that can overlap and muddle with the effects of previous changes.
    Even if type is not inherent, it is extremely unlikely to change IMO. Overall, if you agree with me, the psychotype is the manner one views things. From then on, these "things" can't change it anymore, as they're already perceived your way, habit playing a great role, too. I don't know what could make someone change his/her perception, as long as he uses that perception to understand that actual thing.
    Normally our convictions (and by extension our personality) can change, as they may for example contradict with each other, though even so, the deepest ones tend to never change. Then as long as the psychotype is at the base of our knowledge and it's sufficient to understand everything, what could make it change?

    I personally think it's not impossible - brain damage? mood and memory disorders combined? etc? - but extremely unlikely to happen. I don't bother with these questions nowdays, we don't yet fully understand what types are in the first place.
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    Communism/Socialism is a command-execute economic system and therefore Gamma/Delta. The means of production and output are controlled by explicit commands from the ruling party, whether or not these commands were necessitated by nature. Thus the economic actions are efficient as production only executes what it needs(or, more accurately, what the government says it needs).
    Se explain, why many collectivist head of state/dictators in the socialist bases systems were/are BETA? And why the system where they was the leader reflects their personality so much?

    The capitalism is associated to gamma's cause main capitalist thinkers/operators were/are gamma.

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    Goddamit, when will people stop attributing polical idealogies to quadras??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt View Post
    First of all, we're not talking about true Communism, but Totalitarianism. True Communism was supposed to come naturally and commonly agreed, AFAIK. It is probably an utopia, but if you want something close to it, check the free software ecosystem or certain tribes.
    Yeah, that's true. The world has never seen actual Communism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt View Post
    Also, National-Socialist Germany was competitive in all fields on can think of.
    Many people don't see how similar Nazis and (totalitarian) Communists are, both are very extreme world views. I won't attach the ideologies to a quadra, but the way they developed are clearly Beta, imho. See the rise of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union as an example: both were achieved through forceful revolutions. It was mainly Hitler and those who followed him in Germany and the workers and farmers in Russia. But there was also a high percentage of young idealists in Russia who literally fought for their cause. They believed they could really reach the utopian form of Communism. Actually, they've just paved the way for totalitarian regime instead of a classless society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Bottom line is: You're wrong. End of thread.
    Truth. You can argue all day about this, but it's pretty obvious that Gammas tend to be the most entrepreneurial/material-focused types due to valuing and , and they tend to be big proponents of capitalism (take Milton Friedman for example). Also the idea of a self-regulating system with a bunch of independently adjusting components (as opposed to central control) is clearly a concept, not .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    Goddamit, when will people stop attributing polical idealogies to quadras??
    Would be nice, but, probably never.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    Would be nice, but, probably never.
    Yeah, but it wont stop me from smashing such a thread when I see it

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    Communism and socialism aren't the same thing. The latter isn't fair at all and it has been said/written by non other than Lenin himself.

    EDIT: Oh yea, one more thing to anyone who reads it - what was the U.S back in 1935 "fighting" the the Gramm-Schumer bill if not Beta ?
    Last edited by Absurd; 02-26-2011 at 03:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Communism and socialism aren't the same thing.
    They are still two sides of the same collectivist coin. According to Marx, socialism is one of the evolutionary stages toward pure, unadulterated communism.

    From my point of view, there are only two theories of economy. One allows for the private ownership of property, where every and all means of production and the allocation of scarce resources are firmly in the hands of the private sector (capitalism). The other delegates all responsibility and ownership to the "public" sector (socialism). In the words of von Mises, "There is simply no other choice than this: either to abstain from interference in the free play of the market, or to delegate the entire management of production and distribution to the government. Either capitalism or socialism: there exists no middle way." (Liberalism {1929}, p. 79).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    They are still two sides of the same collectivist coin. According to Marx, socialism is one of the evolutionary stages toward pure, unadulterated communism.
    Sure, but what role plays the state in the latter ? None.

    From my point of view, there are only two theories of economy. One allows for the private ownership of property, where every and all means of production and the allocation of scarce resources are firmly in the hands of the private sector (capitalism). The other delegates all responsibility and ownership to the "public" sector (socialism)
    That's great, I do agree. Can a private sector be a holding company monopolising resources ?

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Sure, but what role plays the state in the latter ? None.
    Right, the only problem is it never gets to the latter stage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    That's great, I do agree. Can a private sector be a holding company monopolising resources ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    Right, the only problem is it never gets to the latter stage.
    Yea, it never did nowhere on Earth. A theory remains a theory.

    That means no, okay

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    i go here for my daily dose of ili marxism-leninism (turned anarchism).
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Liberal capitalism is based on Se. Wish for money and property is Se too. The difference between previous formation based on classes (Ti) - are Te/Fi values of modernity era. You get things mostly not due to your social class, but by your products (in theory). Previous formation had as leading class warriors - it's beta's region, while new modernity formation has traders/bankers. Next formation is delta's one, if history wheel of social development will not be stoped and rotated back. There are powers who want this, as they think global social development of people exceeds resouce limits of Earth. And they affraid technical and humanitarian progress wich solves problem of resources and leads people to freedom and ascending, while they want to keep their power by any means. We live today on the edge of this problem - history of humanity moves further or will be directed back, last strategicaly means direction to death and collapse for humanity.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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