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Thread: Religion-based killings

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    Default Religion-based killings

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...istianity.html

    Injustices like this - killing someone for their beliefs - make me so sad.

    He's not a murderer, a rapist, a thief... He's a worker for the Red Cross who helps fellow amputees recover and deal with their difficult lives. This is as bad as killing someone because they're homosexual, or because they voted differently than you, or even because they have a different skin color.

    People got all upset about that (not very smart) preacher who wanted to burn the Muslim holy book. It got international attention and condemnation. But this is a human being that's about to get destroyed. Why aren't more people as upset? Is a human life really worth less than a few scraps of easily recreate-able paper?

    Even with all of our differences, and disputes, and political infighting, and even with all it's (huge) problems, I'm so glad I live in a country where I can choose my beliefs without fear of my government or community trying to kill me. Then again, if people not caring about something like this is an indication of larger things, perhaps I'm not really that safe after all...

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    It's Afghanistan, it's not like anyone can do anything about it. Think about aborigenal (archaically speaking, thus say people that lived 100'000 years ago) people killing each other because they simply pertained to a different tribe. That's the average level of afghani talibans.
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    My perspective will probably make several people think I'm horrible and/or insane, but here it is.

    If he dies now, he'll go to heaven. If he doesn't die now, he'll die later, 'cause everyone dies. He'll still go to Heaven, so it doesn't make any difference in the long run. Of course the torture is a bad thing. They need to stop that.

    I also believe Christians should flood the military. If they die, it's okay. If a heathen dies, they won't get another chance, so they need to be protected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...istianity.html

    Injustices like this - killing someone for their beliefs - make me so sad.

    He's not a murderer, a rapist, a thief... He's a worker for the Red Cross who helps fellow amputees recover and deal with their difficult lives. This is as bad as killing someone because they're homosexual, or because they voted differently than you, or even because they have a different skin color.
    If you jump off a roof, what happens? You fall. Gravity doesn't care whether you're good or bad. You fall whether you're a good guy or bad guy. Because we live in an imperfect world, shit happens to good people and bad people. It sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    People got all upset about that (not very smart) preacher who wanted to burn the Muslim holy book. It got international attention and condemnation. But this is a human being that's about to get destroyed. Why aren't more people as upset? Is a human life really worth less than a few scraps of easily recreate-able paper?
    I'm not sure why nobody cares. Maybe because we're desensitized? Its like we see people dying on the news everyday or when we hear of the millions starving in Africa...Nobody gives a shit. In terms of the preacher example you gave, its generally okay for everyone to bash on Christianity (probably because of a lot of the idiots that represent it), but its not okay to bash on other religions. Its like we select which attitudes are okay and not okay; "Its okay for group A to die, its not okay for group B to be hated on, etc" versus "All killing is bad, All discrimination is bad."

    When celebrities/well known people die, everybody goes crazy...Why? Because in our minds, they're set at a higher priority than an Afghan red cross worker. That's just the way it is.

    Even with all of our differences, and disputes, and political infighting, and even with all it's (huge) problems, I'm so glad I live in a country where I can choose my beliefs without fear of my government or community trying to kill me. Then again, if people not caring about something like this is an indication of larger things, perhaps I'm not really that safe after all...
    Yeah I feel lucky too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    It's sad and awful, but fairly ubiquitous across the globe and always has been. In less 'modern' countries like Afghanistan, people are killed over religious differences; in more 'modern' countries, we kill people over political differences.

    It's all the same shit. You could easily wake up one day and find it happening here just the same. Many oppressive tyrannical regimes rapidly evolved out of civilized, democratic societies. It's a sobering thought when you really consider the history.
    True that. Its not the religion, its not the politics. Its the people that are messed up
    Last edited by peteronfireee; 02-23-2011 at 05:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    I also believe Christians should flood the military. If they die, it's okay. If a heathen dies, they won't get another chance, so they need to be protected.
    I believe this as well. It would do the world a lot of good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    My perspective will probably make several people think I'm horrible and/or insane, but here it is.
    I have definite opinions about your opinions, but I have to admire the fact that you're consistent in ways many Christians are not.

    I've always wondered why Christians aren't constantly running around killing each other en masse. You get to preempt the pain of existence via a direct ticket to heaven if you're a victim, and if you're the perpetrator, sacrificing your soul for others' must be worth a few brownie points with the bearded one.
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    But if a Christian joins the military...is it a sin to kill a heathen? I suppose their most optimal tactic would be to kill as few people as possible.

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    I care a lot about the individual well-being of people. Unfortunately, there are very few responsible human beings. But, that shouldn't stop us from caring. We, who care, carry our conscious with us, throughout our own life time and we hope that we make the impact in the future. So, we should continue to care and love responsibly. You're doing the right thing. Don't let it aggravate you too much or sink your emotions, that's unproductive (as your dual would say).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    But if a Christian joins the military...is it a sin to kill a heathen? I suppose their most optimal tactic would be to kill as few people as possible.
    I think the rationale is somewhere along the lines that it's only a sin if you enjoy it or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    My perspective will probably make several people think I'm horrible and/or insane, but here it is.

    If he dies now, he'll go to heaven. If he doesn't die now, he'll die later, 'cause everyone dies. He'll still go to Heaven, so it doesn't make any difference in the long run. Of course the torture is a bad thing. They need to stop that.

    I also believe Christians should flood the military. If they die, it's okay. If a heathen dies, they won't get another chance, so they need to be protected.
    There is no emoticon I could use to connote this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    I think the rationale is somewhere along the lines that it's only a sin if you enjoy it or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    I think the rationale is somewhere along the lines that it's only a sin if you enjoy it or something.
    heh apparently "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't apply in the context of warfare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_sha...ng:_in_warfare



    (i went ahead and moved this thread to Other Areas of Knowledge)

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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    I've always wondered why Christians aren't constantly running around killing each other en masse. You get to preempt the pain of existence via a direct ticket to heaven if you're a victim, and if you're the perpetrator, sacrificing your soul for others' must be worth a few brownie points with the bearded one.
    What bearded one?
    Letting some people get to heaven early is in no way worth sacrificing a soul. They'll just have to be patient. Besides, God has plans for people and it's not nice to make someone have to keep changing their plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    But if a Christian joins the military...is it a sin to kill a heathen?
    Not if it's to stop them from killing someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    heh apparently "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't apply in the context of warfare
    That's not a commandment. It's "Thou shalt not murder." There is a difference. If I run over a beetle on my way to the library, it's okay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    That's not a commandment. It's "Thou shalt not murder." There is a difference. If I run over a beetle on my way to the library, it's okay.
    "Thou shalt not kill" is just another way of saying "Thou shalt not murder". the Commandments apply to humans and their treatment of other humans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    "Thou shalt not kill" is just another way of saying "Thou shalt not murder". the Commandments apply to humans and their treatment of other humans.
    kill v to deprive of life in any manner
    murder v to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously

    Alternate translation for "Thou shalt not murder": "Do not put anyone to death without cause."
    The Bible often uses the phrase, "lie in wait" for murder, implying that the deed was premeditated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    So that means all killing is justified in the Christian religion, as long as God told them to do it. Good to know.
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    Religion is bullshit, all the holy books say "Don't kill", yet people manage to convince themself that it's okay "IF" etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    kill v to deprive of life in any manner
    murder v to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously

    Alternate translation for "Thou shalt not murder": "Do not put anyone to death without cause."
    The Bible often uses the phrase, "lie in wait" for murder, implying that the deed was premeditated.
    is "Thou shalt not kill" the best way to translate it, to show the intended meaning of the Commandment? maybe not. "Thou shalt not murder" might be better.

    still, the point is that the Commandments apply to humans. so "Thou shalt not kill" means: "Don't kill other people". the Commandments do reference animals, but only as property of humans, and people can do whatever they want with their own property.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    is "Thou shalt not kill" the best way to translate it, to show the intended meaning of the Commandment? maybe not. "Thou shalt not murder" might be better.

    still, the point is that the Commandments apply to humans. so "Thou shalt not kill" means: "Don't kill other people". the Commandments do reference animals, but only as property of humans, and people can do whatever they want with their own property.
    "Murder" is much more common in the translations than "Kill." (Only dumbed-down versions say stuff like "No killing." I don't like baby-talk versions.) The commandments don't specifically say they only apply to humans, and saying killing is evil is stupid. God told Noah he could eat meat, and even herbavores kill to survive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    oh, apparently this is just an issue of you defending the translation you happen to like better i'm not going to try and change your opinion. i wasn't interested in that...

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    Basically murder is unjustified killing and what justifies killing is arbitrary and open to interpretation. It pretty much means Christians have a very flexible moral compass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    I also believe Christians should flood the military. If they die, it's okay. If a heathen dies, they won't get another chance, so they need to be protected.
    This doesn't really make sense as Christians are needed just as much everywhere else. Also, I don't think that not being in the military makes it any more likely to become a believer.

    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    I have definite opinions about your opinions, but I have to admire the fact that you're consistent in ways many Christians are not.

    I've always wondered why Christians aren't constantly running around killing each other en masse. You get to preempt the pain of existence via a direct ticket to heaven if you're a victim, and if you're the perpetrator, sacrificing your soul for others' must be worth a few brownie points with the bearded one.
    Well, Christians don't go around killing each other because we believe God has a plan for our life and it probably includes suffering. There is a lot of learning to do in life and I belive God often tests one's faith. Also, I would argue that killing is not a good thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    But if a Christian joins the military...is it a sin to kill a heathen? I suppose their most optimal tactic would be to kill as few people as possible.
    I'm not sure if its a sin but I am definitely against it and I believe Jesus would be as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    "Murder" is much more common in the translations than "Kill." (Only dumbed-down versions say stuff like "No killing." I don't like baby-talk versions.) The commandments don't specifically say they only apply to humans, and saying killing is evil is stupid. God told Noah he could eat meat, and even herbavores kill to survive.
    Okay, well you can argue about what that particular commandment means, but lets look at the character of Jesus. Jesus was in fact divine and human at once and is probably the best example we have to look at for what our life should reflect. Do you think you would see Jesus out in the battlefield shooting someone? Do you think he would be fighting for any particular country? I don't think so and I don't think he would really distinguish between killing and murder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Not if it's to stop them from killing someone
    But if you kill them, then they may go to hell, while if they kill a Christian soldier, they still have time to convert. So they Christians should try to capture them in a non-lethal way, even if more soldiers are killed .

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    Apostasy killings in Islam is nothing new, and certainly not exclusive to Islam ,at least historically, although it's in the front runner of our times; harassing and killing people who leave Islam occurs in Western countries as well, so in many cases asylum does little when the radicals live amongst us

    People got all upset about that (not very smart) preacher who wanted to burn the Muslim holy book. It got international attention and condemnation. But this is a human being that's about to get destroyed. Why aren't more people as upset? Is a human life really worth less than a few scraps of easily recreate-able paper?
    I don't know how to reply to this since I can't wrap my head around it either. All I know is that there are a lot of people in this world who hold superstitious materialistic beliefs to their faith to the point that it's less about the belief and more about the identity surrounding it; things like religious text become sacred magical things to them which seems sort of ironic to me since most of these texts preach against that sort of idolatry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    Okay, well you can argue about what that particular commandment means, but lets look at the character of Jesus. Jesus was in fact divine and human at once and is probably the best example we have to look at for what our life should reflect. Do you think you would see Jesus out in the battlefield shooting someone? Do you think he would be fighting for any particular country? I don't think so and I don't think he would really distinguish between killing and murder.
    Have you ever read the Old Testament, particularly the time when the Isrealites were entering the promised land? They goofed because they didn't kill the people God told them to kill. That's the same God as the New Testament.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    But if you kill them, then they may go to hell, while if they kill a Christian soldier, they still have time to convert. So they Christians should try to capture them in a non-lethal way, even if more soldiers are killed .
    Kill the enemy soldiers so they don't kill your nonChristian friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Have you ever read the Old Testament, particularly the time when the Isrealites were entering the promised land? They goofed because they didn't kill the people God told them to kill. That's the same God as the New Testament.
    Yes, I have read the OT, but back then God was telling them exactly what to do then and that is not true now. Also, some things have changed since Jesus coming such as his emphasis on the spirit of the law rather then the letter. Can you honestly say that based on what you know of the character of Christ you think he would be out in the battlefield killing people over some countries probably corrupt goals?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    What bearded one?
    'Bearded one' is a dry euphemism for the historical depictions of the Christian deity as a elderly, bearded, male human.

    Letting some people get to heaven early is in no way worth sacrificing a soul. They'll just have to be patient. Besides, God has plans for people and it's not nice to make someone have to keep changing their plans.
    How can you personally speak for what your god would and would not allow? That conflicts with your position as one of humilated subserviance to His will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    Well, Christians don't go around killing each other because we believe God has a plan for our life and it probably includes suffering. There is a lot of learning to do in life and I belive God often tests one's faith. Also, I would argue that killing is not a good thing to do.
    Unfortunately, this reponse doesn't address the issue. If your god has a plan for your life that includes suffering, that does not constrain the actions of someone who might free you of suffering by way of a mercy killing. Similarily a test to YOUR faith does not limit the actions of another. And the fact that murder is immoral means committing it for the sake of someone else's soul is the ultimate sacrifice. That self-sacrifice is the central tenet of Christianity with respect to Jesus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    Can you honestly say that based on what you know of the character of Christ you think he would be out in the battlefield killing people over some countries probably corrupt goals?
    Of course not. I'm not even going to say he would fight if his country were under attack. He had a more important task to complete. But there's nothing wrong with killing people if they're going to kill your loved ones if you don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    'Bearded one' is a dry euphemism for the historical depictions of the Christian deity as a elderly, bearded, male human.
    I don't know who depicted God as an old man, but he's not an old man. He's only 1/3 male.

    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    How can you personally speak for what your god would and would not allow? That conflicts with your position as one of humilated subserviance to His will.
    I'm quite familiar with the Bible's teachings and I know God personally. I'm not God's slave, I'm his daughter.

    You're that evolutionist I got in an argument with a couple of years ago. If I remember correctly, you're very close-minded and it was very frustrating trying to explain anything to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Crispy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    I don't know who depicted God as an old man, but he's not an old man. He's only 1/3 male.
    Is he 1/4 Bi as well?
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

  31. #31
    Grand Inquisitor Bardia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    Unfortunately, this reponse doesn't address the issue. If your god has a plan for your life that includes suffering, that does not constrain the actions of someone who might free you of suffering by way of a mercy killing. Similarily a test to YOUR faith does not limit the actions of another. And the fact that murder is immoral means committing it for the sake of someone else's soul is the ultimate sacrifice. That self-sacrifice is the central tenet of Christianity with respect to Jesus.
    Well you can't control what the other person does, but that doesn't mean you should dumbly continually place yourself in harms way hoping someone will kill you and you'll go to heaven. I think someone with strong faith is content with whatever plan God has for their life be it for them to live long or not very long, to die a martyr or not. I think purposefully trying to get yourself killed is kind of like saying to God, I know you have a plan for me but it's too much for me to handle so I'm just gonna hope someone kills me when I go to the Middle East and shout I'm a Christian in the streets. It kind of shows that you don't really trust God to help you, that he's watching over you, and that he knows better than you do what's best for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Of course not. I'm not even going to say he would fight if his country were under attack. He had a more important task to complete. But there's nothing wrong with killing people if they're going to kill your loved ones if you don't.
    Aren't we supposed to emulate him though? He is the best example of what God wants us to be like. If you kill people who try to kill you, you are just like anyone else. Not that following that belief isn't difficult and I would hope I would do the right thing but I don't know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    I don't know who depicted God as an old man, but he's not an old man. He's only 1/3 male
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Bardia0
    http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0

  32. #32
    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    People got all upset about that (not very smart) preacher who wanted to burn the Muslim holy book. It got international attention and condemnation. But this is a human being that's about to get destroyed. Why aren't more people as upset? Is a human life really worth less than a few scraps of easily recreate-able paper?
    I think the reason people got upset over the book burning was because it was about something "one of us" was doing, and we feel more responsible about what is happening by people here. Obviously the story you linked to is terrible, and it's way way way worse to kill a person than to burn a book - any book, but I don't think the two issues are related.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  33. #33
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    I just dislike the certainty with which many people of faith convey their viewpoints.

    The inevitable fact of the matter is many of the issues pertaining to something as simple as the first commandment "Thou shalt not kill" are incredibly ambiguous.

  34. #34
    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    Is he 1/4 Bi as well?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    Aren't we supposed to emulate him though? He is the best example of what God wants us to be like. If you kill people who try to kill you, you are just like anyone else. Not that following that belief isn't difficult and I would hope I would do the right thing but I don't know.
    Jesus is a great example to follow, but he never wore socks. I love socks, and wearing socks isn't a sin.

    Not kill people who are a danger to us, kill people who are a danger to our loved ones. If someone tries to kill my baby, I'm gonna stab them with knitting needles, and it might be fatal.

    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    The inevitable fact of the matter is many of the issues pertaining to something as simple as the first commandment "Thou shalt not kill" are incredibly ambiguous.
    Actually, that's the sixth commandment.

    ESTj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Actually, that's the sixth commandment.
    Lol I guess, but the point is people's personal frame of reference get involved in that sort of thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    My perspective will probably make several people think I'm horrible and/or insane, but here it is.

    If he dies now, he'll go to heaven. If he doesn't die now, he'll die later, 'cause everyone dies. He'll still go to Heaven, so it doesn't make any difference in the long run. Of course the torture is a bad thing. They need to stop that.

    I also believe Christians should flood the military. If they die, it's okay. If a heathen dies, they won't get another chance, so they need to be protected.
    I tell you solemnly, you shall burn in hell for the grave sin of failing to have the forsight of being a muslim.

    What is a heathen anyway? Anyone who did not have the forsight to adopt your arbitirarily arrived "beliefs" (I would dare say childhood pre programming is more apt of a term though.)

    Don't you see the hypocrisy of dogmatic exclusivism? It's why we "heathens" don't take christan threats of hellfire seriously, no more than we take muslim hellfire threats seriously, it's just special pleading.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special_pleading
    Last edited by Bluenoir; 02-27-2011 at 07:46 AM. Reason: a better link
    The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.

    Chapter 14, Verse 9.
    The Bhagavad Gita

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    It's sad and awful, but fairly ubiquitous across the globe and always has been. In less 'modern' countries like Afghanistan, people are killed over religious differences; in more 'modern' countries, we kill people over political differences.

    It's all the same shit. You could easily wake up one day and find it happening here just the same. Many oppressive tyrannical regimes rapidly evolved out of civilized, democratic societies. It's a sobering thought when you really consider the history.
    People have to kill themselves/each other because they have no natural predators and aren't smart enough to control their population and manage their resources in a rational manner. Religion is just a convenient excuse.
    It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    People have to kill themselves/each other because they have no natural predators and aren't smart enough to control their population and manage their resources in a rational manner. Religion is just a convenient excuse.
    Yea I like this idea, natural predators usually requires the martial part of the population to serve a role in aiding and protecting the populations from threats, in turn they are granted benefits for this service as long as their violence is directed towards the threats. In modern society, the martial part of the population still feels they have to serve the population through protection and enforcement, especially with the presence of crime and other problems, but its less clear cut on how to approach these issues and since its chiefly against other human beings it polarizes people against each other.

    Further than this is the role natural predator serve in prioritizing society. Natural predators, makes survival of the highest importance, and people are less likely to engage in war over ideological issues and are more content with simply not getting attacked and surviving. Therefore will underlying quarrels exist, they are largely ignored in favor of survival being the highest priority. In other words, the quality of life was lower, so people's expectations were lower and didn't fell an urgent impetus to act on less important matters.

    Life was also shorter and harder, if there was someone you didn't like, chances are they could easily perish do to their inability to either be competent or befriend a competent person. In modern times, survival is incredibly easy to achieve, so there are plenty of people who survive solely on leeching off of society.

    Also its incredibly hard to convert these people to become productive and social members of society. Because society is increasingly complex, impersonal, and systematized. It's easy to fly under the radar and be a number or exploit the system, and most efforts to generally help fellow unproductive people fail due to their attempts to make people "interface with the system" properly rather than address the underlying human issues. So typically resources become wasted on these people.

    If natural predators were around, if one did face challenges to fitting in with a society, it would be in there best interest to quickly adapt somehow, or else they'd be at a natural disadvantage to predators.

    I would actually argue, temporarily due to smart individuals building systems to manage the increasing complexity of modern life, and dumb individuals maintaining them long after the smart individuals have died, that society could undergo a period of retro-grade development that would persist until the system fails and smart individuals will be called again to fix them, through the process of revolution, creative-destruction, and reconstruction. These individuals would have to be intelligent enough not only in the classical sense, but also intelligent enough socially to deal with the increasingly unintelligent masses who temporarily hold dominant influence. I think that is actually the challenge of the modern citizen. The criteria for survival has changed... the natural predator has become parts of society itself.

  39. #39
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Religion and religion-like beliefs are formed from part lie and part truth. Often religious arguments has the structure of.

    Believe (X)(true)
    Do (Y)(Unassociated action that is thought to be valid because of x but really is unrelated.)
    Reward (Z)(Unassociated reward, and most likely a lie)
    Such as...

    Believe in Jesus, Kill Infidels, Go to Heaven
    Believe in Mohammed, Kill Infidels, Go to Heaven
    Believe in Communism, Kill Capitalists, Everyone live in classless utopia
    Believe in Capitalism, Kill Communists, Everyone lives in wealth and prosperity

    It's actually tapping into very basic urges that we suppress against our own identified group. A feeling of resentment and a urge of lash out. To kill, to steal, to exploit. It matters very little what the belief is or what the reward is, these are defined by the group identification. The aim is to engage in conflict against other groups, usually over resources.

  40. #40
    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Believe in Jesus, Kill Infidels, Go to Heaven
    Believe in Mohammed, Kill Infidels, Go to Heaven
    Believe in Communism, Kill Capitalists, Everyone live in classless utopia
    Believe in Capitalism, Kill Communists, Everyone lives in wealth and prosperity
    No.
    I am justifying that sometimes killing is okay, certainly not that it is necessary. One would have to be insane (or seriously misinformed) to both believe in Jesus and kill infidels.
    Communism and Capitalism aren't about killing people, they're about subduing people.

    ESTj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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