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Thread: Insight from the Workshop

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Default Insight from the Workshop

    Brilliant posts:

    http://socionics.ws/forums/viewtopic...&t=91&start=40

    This whole thread is full of misinformation and misinterpretations, primarily caused by interfering quadras and most posters not considering other postersí viewpoints (explicitly). So here is an attempt to summarize and finalize a lot of loose strings with an ambiguously NT perspective.

    http://www.cracked.com/article_18417_th ... -good.html

    Specifically #7,6,3,2,1. Possibly 5.

    Whether Cracked can be considered a reliable source of anything factual at all, their research is solid covering a broad range of topics and their (silly) arguments are obvious.

    A distinct feature of Gamma villains is that they have a superior labour force.
    -Star Wars: Infinite Robot Army and superior Jedi (Sith)
    -Lion King: Hyenas
    -Lord of The Rings: Millions of disgruntled, surly, grisly, vengeful, bloodthirsty mutant-elves.

    This leads into the Genocide issues so carelessly brought up and hurting on the NTís nonexistent Ethics functions. Genocide isnít against people itís against a species, a genome. A lot of people are confusing Genocide for Mass Murder. Killing off all the zombies in a zombie movie, or all the cyborgs in terminator is also genocide.

    -Alphas will do it if there is a serious logical basis: Quarantine, zombie apocalypse. LII especially will not be bargained with if attempting to discredit Genocide as a logical option. There is a reason for genocide and itís very simple: If a species are all together unworthy of living. While the reason is simple the factors and process of deciding who is unworthy is a problem in itself and one that encompasses all Information Elements. This is where the debate as to what or who is worthy and who gets to decide.

    -Betas will do it because Betas are eviÖ They want things their way and will impose their Energy(Fe) and Force(Se) to accomplish it. Hitler (ENFJ) did it, Stalin and Milosevic (both ISTJ) did it, even the Jediís(ENFJ) did it. The common theme among beta genocide is that they always fail, usually very spectacularly. Force is only as effective as the volume of force and can be easily defeated with systematic thinking and efficiency, or even parlor tricks and basic mind games.

    -Deltas are xenophobic but will never admit it. They are mostly anti-violence and their protest of xenos occurs in a form of non-confrontation. Theyíll never openly say a racial slur but they will teach their children to stay away from other races/classes/groups. To counter this potentially demonizing depiction: Deltas simply need to expand their scope of a species and recognize that separation is the greatest illusion (some tau/Buddhist saying) Once they achieve this ability to incorporate everyone into their ďownĒ genome they become very wise indeed. However, they never stop being xenophobic because they then exclude non-tangible means from their conservational grounds. They consider things like violence to be outside their genome and will not tolerate it. The continuation of this concept is obvious.

    -ILI do not condone Genocide, they can simply carry the idea (and in fact any idea) through its intuitive conclusion. Discussion and criticisms (constructive or otherwise) of genocidal practices is not the same as condoning them. It will however, bring out an emotional response from those who are affected by it (Ethical types). Stating that genocide is a grotesque atrocity and doesnít belong in X discussion or Y forum is like saying that an Idea has no place here weíre here to talk about things that make us feel fuzzy. This is the highest form of atrocity to an LII, the utter killing off of an idea: the genocide of concepts.

    -LIE will never commit genocide because it is simply unprofitable. A labour force is the most difficult part of an empire. The Empire in Star Wars didnít purge any of the worlds it occupied, it assimilated them and set up recruitment/training camps. Lord of the Rings Sauron didnít kill the mutants living near his volcano he employed them, and after conquering Middle Earth would have employed them as well. To reference Beta genocide again: Betas always lose to Gamma conquerors, especially LIE driven. See Germany/America, Pulp Fictionís Jules/Jimmy, and Jedi/Empire.

    -As for ESI, SEE. Itís an uncomfortable topic to discuss in public for them but they would do it out of vengeance. The closest I can come up with is the Nazi/Munich hunting parties of the Mossad. For them itís equivalent exchange and justice.


    Math is the EXACT SAME THING. Math itself is just a system, and the idea of math is an idea. Math is not moral, amoral or immoral, no more than genocide, itís a concept, a system, a method of exploring the universe. It is a tool, like a hammer to be used either to build a house, or break it down. Like all other such matters, it can be used for moral/amoral/immoral concepts based on the user. This then enters the realm of understanding people, which is what all of us here at Socionic forums are trying to accomplish.


    Mismatching concepts and Quadras:

    This next part probably belongs in the Gamma Most Misunderstood thread, and I'll probably move it upon request. Or if the admins want they can just go ahead. Though I feel that a Gamma Bad Guy thread can simply be dissolved by proving they aren't bad guys.

    Alphas: Your input is always appreciated in Gamma discussions. It sheds light onto and creates a contrast with all the Gamma ideas. Any point of discussion is best resolved by including the entire club (NT in this case). Your ideas are fresh and build a much needed structure between point A and B. That being said, this is a gamma forum. The intention here is based primarily on getting along and being profitable. An idea in and of itself is meaningless here. To paraphrase Northrop Frye: until an idea is put into literary form you donít know whether you are having birth pains or just gas. Logically correct has a correlation with but not a causation of profitability. Here is an article that demonstrates this concept.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/healt ... .html?_r=1

    TLR for a long time scientists believed that lactic acid was a waste byproduct of muscles pushed too far. It was best to exercise within a specific limit. However, Coaches and Team owners knew that was somewhat not true and noticed better performance from athletes who pushed their limits. Decades later it was disproved, lactic acid is actually a fuel generated by the muscles once their regular supply ran out. Problem was that muscles usually never ran out and werenít accustomed to this new product. By pushing their limits athletes conditioned their muscles to burn this extra fuel.

    The moral of the story is that the science was there and it made sense, it had a logical structure, but it was wrong. However, the business logic was never wrong. Even if the science behind the business logic was wrong, the final result was still worth it. This concept extends to gamma discussion. Gammas are here to discuss Socionics in order to practice it. It has to fit casually into life, explaining why things happen and how people think, so that we can understand the reason of things and how we can affect the outcomes. If you were to look up BrainTyping you would find that this typology method is very much criticized by the skepticís community for being a pure pseudo-science. Regardless of that it works and itís making money, for the clients not just the proprietor. Eventually the science will be there to prove or disprove why it should or shouldnít but does work. Whether theyíre using the right methods, the results line up with other typologies, but usually sooner and are more prescriptive rather than descriptive. They donít tell much about why, but rather what should be done and how it has worked before and lines up with external sources.

    Betas: Fun to work with and good for getting things done. However, its best to leave the discussions to us. IEI and EIE have very opinionated voices but they usually interfere with the free interchanging of concepts. A disclaimer: We will never implement any outright scheme such as genocide, herbicide, or JustinBeibercide. When we do we will be sure to pay the Betas to do the dirty work. LSIs are reliable and loyal to a fault and SLEs will do anything if the price is right.

    Deltas: It is good to know how our high-flying ideas are seen from a grounded perspective. I was surprised to see an SLI moderating a socionic forum, itís about time. Iíll take a conservative stance over any new-age-hippy-facebook-question authority-fight the man garbage.

    The post was long and written in a single shot. So if you noticed it getting lazy towards the end you're aren't quite Sherlock Holmes. Unless you're an SLI.
    The Matrix:

    The architect from the movie is more likely an ILI than an LII. The reasoning is simple, the machines are lazy. A rational attitude would cause them to continue to improve their systems. If they were LII they would continue to analyze the system, childishly attempting to continue to recreate it until it was perfect. Instead they figured out what the problem was, implemented the laziest, sloppiest method of making it work and decided to call it an epoch and wait for the sky to clear until they get the sun back.

    The hero of the movie, one Neo is an LII played by an IEE actor. In order to be able to see it, you would have to not see him at all. Picture Neo played by the original intended actor: Will Smith. Would have been a completely different movie, and would not have had sequels. Also Agent Smith is played by Hugo Weaving, an LIE. Typical LIE behaviour, a random nobody ends up outperforming everybody, starts assimilating resources and becomes a threat to the system's hierarchy but instead gets picked off by some artificially superior entity. Agent Smith thought the matrix cycle was clumsy and the humans should all be controlled because they all act so irrational. Taking and never returning. Yeah, how dare he try to cure the planet of the worst virus: man.

    Also Virus movie Virus was probably this too.

    The Matrix is incredibly similar to Equilibrium. They came out at the same time and according to a reliable Beta "THEY'RE THE EXACT SAME MOVIE!" It is much easier to recognize the LII Protagonist, only this time he's overthrowing what seems to be a society with Fe in the 4th channel. So its another ILI/SLI society.

    Other gamma villains include Lex Luthor (LIE?). Except that aside from being good at business and technology. His only "villainous" activity is his concern of Earth's reliance on demigods who could turn on them at any minute. Since superman (ExI?) would never do anything to so much as hurt anyone's feelings its easy to pin the blame on the guy who doesn't trust him.

    Tony Stark/ Iron Man, prototypical LIE. It could be argued that he wrecked half the city in his suit. Except that hes a hero, or anti-hero.

    The evil guy from Transporter 3, also LIE. Quoting him now so as to use later "There are no more nations, that's old world thinking. Now there are only economic realities"

    America (F@#$ YEAH!) LIE according to many typologies. Yes everyone has a love/hate relationship with America. It is in understanding this hatred of America that we can come to understand the anomaly that is the LIE. The first thing to consider is that no matter what anyone says, America is right. It is a tech-driven, industrious machine of innovation, expansion and of course business. Though here's the thing, no one really hates America they just hate the false perception. The last few Presidents were Betas and they managed to ruin the reputation of America within a decade. The reason? LIE's can't be bothered with running for politics, they're too busy being busy with business. With globalization being what it is, there is no such thing as a country, only an economic reality. Also, LIE like being corrected and enjoy some level of Se. They enjoy the company of aggressive people (Betas favouring Se). You could say they are impressionable. Michael Moore (ILI) can make money because being the mirror type there is always something to correct about the country. LSI's in the military enjoy a Mirage relationship with their country, meaning less talking and more working. Japan is America's duality, also accounts for why 90% of Japanese population intermarries, vs only 10% from all other asian cultures.The catch with LIE is that they are, and have always been, right. It just takes the world a long time to figure it out. LIE are no strangers to persevering in the service of their principles and will upset the entire world if need be. The biggest service LIE can do for you, is to never stop annoying you with everything they know. If you should ever prove them wrong about anything, they won't fail or feel down, they'll assimilate the new truth, shift their paradigm and continue bringing knowledge to the world. If you think it's annoying, your welcome. You'll thank us later, or won't. It doesn't matter.

    P.S. Barrack Obama is an ILE. So he might come up with some kind of scheme and might make something work. Too bad for him Beta dominant politics are his Supers, Benfs, Hippies and jerks (LSI, EIE, IEI, SLE respectively)
    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    That post is full of exactly the kind of bullshit that comes from "zooming out" too much in examining these concepts, essentially missing the trees for the forest, not to mention a whole lot of "Gamma" penis-touching.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
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    Oh, nice. More "Betas are evil" BS. What a novel addition to Socionics discussion.

    P.S. Someone has been watching too much Star Wars instead of living in reality.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Ayup.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    That post is full of exactly the kind of bullshit that comes from "zooming out" too much in examining these concepts, essentially missing the trees for the forest, not to mention a whole lot of "Gamma" penis-touching.
    As long as it's from attractive valuing females what's wrong with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Oh, nice. More "Betas are evil" BS. What a novel addition to Socionics discussion.

    P.S. Someone has been watching too much Star Wars instead of living in reality.
    Or maybe not enough...
    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

    31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
    My work on Inert/Contact subtypes

    Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
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    Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites


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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    HURRRRR

    I'm saying you're a self-inflating dolt who clearly doesn't understand this shit.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  7. #7
    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
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    Japan is America's duality, also accounts for why 90% of Japanese population intermarries, vs only 10% from all other asian cultures.
    Btw, what is the source for this brilliant "fact"? And if it were factually correct (it isn't), what would it have to do with Japan being the U.S.'s dual?

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    HURRRRR

    I'm saying you're a self-inflating dolt who clearly doesn't understand this shit.
    My first ad hominem, and from Gilly. I must be special.
    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

    31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
    My work on Inert/Contact subtypes

    Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    P.S. Barrack Obama is an ILE.
    lol

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    I read maybe two sentences of the first post before I 'ugh'ed under my breath.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

  11. #11
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    What a crock of shit.

    (since I'm LIE and always right, it must really be a crock of shit. However, if it's a crock of shit I'm not always right. )
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    (since I'm LIE and always right, it must really be a crock of shit. However, if it's a crock of shit I'm not always right. )
    That's such an LIE thing to say too!

  13. #13
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    lol
    I know right? IJ as fuck.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  14. #14
    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    What a crock of shit.

    (since I'm LIE and always right, it must really be a crock of shit. However, if it's a crock of shit I'm not always right. )
    It's all shit except the part about LIEs being right, of course.

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