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Thread: Si and physical states

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    "Information without energy is useless" Nowisthetime's Avatar
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    Default Si and physical states

    Any smart people here who knows about the connection between Si and physical states? From experience I can agree that Si in fact is interested in about physical states, but I don't really understand how how it can be explained. How do you go from "intraverted sensing" to "physical states".

    I mean things like paying attention to or "feeling" the temperature of an object, or density, dirtiness, dryness, state of decompostation.

    In these cases, it is not about experiencing the object with my bare hands. I can relate to the state of the object by looking at it. If this is Si, is this why Si is called "abstract sensing"?

    I sense my computer in a different light when I have installed a new linux distribution. It feels physically fresher. Could it be Si related?

    As a kid I used to have this "game" with my ESE sister when we picked up an object that felt good in the hand and had a "pleasant" density (felt compact in a good way). We weighted it in the hand and said that this was a good object. it feels really retarded to talk about it now, but we both understood what we meant.

    When I water my house plants, I am careful to water them so that the whole soil in the pot gets moisturized. I cannot see it (because the pot is in the way) but it feels.

    As a kid I loved chemical compounds. I bought them and kept them on a shelf in test tubes.

    A while ago I had an argument with my ESI mother about clothing. She was going jogging in cold winter weather, with a cotton shirt next to the skin. I was upset and tried to make her switch to wool or synthetic fabric, because it transports the sweat away from the skin. I think it is Si related that I felt that it was so important. I mean, it IS important, but also for me it was, subjectively.

    What's it called in English, this insulated bag that you can have food in in the summer when on a picnic, and you ad some containers with ice to keep it cool? Anyway, it feels good when I can keep the food really cool despite of the temperature outside. I'm really interested in it.

    What about a loaded gun? Is it Si? But it doesn't have to be a real gun, a loaded water pistol, an electronic device with new batteries, it's the same thing. There's really something about it.

    Anybody can relate? Comments? Please.

    Wikisocion on Si: http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...verted_sensing

    EDIT:
    When drinking coffee I prefer to heat the cup before pouring the coffee in it. To minimize the transition of heat from the coffee to the mug. Is it Si?
    Last edited by Nowisthetime; 02-18-2011 at 08:40 PM.

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    So fluffeh. Cuddly McFluffles's Avatar
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    My understanding is that focuses on how something makes you feel (in a physiological sense). It is the physical state caused by interaction with an object/person/environment/etc.
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    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
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    I strongly devalue Si and have relationships to things in the world, and I also would want to wear proper attire for various things, although I wouldn't get adamant about it, esp on someone else's behalf.

    Let me put it this way: my Delta ex and his family had a lot of rituals involving food, drink, and light exercise. But the point was not the tea, the meal, or the walk. The point was to what end they pursued those things: a state of homeostasis. And that's a state I don't want to be in. I might drink fine tea, have a delightful dinner, and go for a walk afterward, but from those activities I would be after a different kind of stimulation.

    So for the ex, what the LSE descriptions say about inducing a state of inner harmony in order to be more able to work is pretty accurate. Myself, I can't work well if I'm in that state.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    The internalization of sensations...experiencing and reacting to the constant stream of sensory input.

    What's there not to get?

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    I would be after a different kind of stimulation.
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    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
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    ^^^ Yeah, maybe that, lol.

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    I think the idea of Si is more that the physical world is experienced in a sort of seemingly indirect way. That is to say, it isn't so much concerned with with the specific things that physically exist, where the emphasis is placed on the things in the outside world; it's more that Si is attuned to understanding how it "feels" about the outside world. It more cares about the impact that it feels, not necessarily the source of the impact. The objects in the world as they exist by themselves are kind of placed at secondary importance to the specific impact those objects project; one might even dare to say that the object's impact and the object itself are separate entities. Now, Si information becomes even more nuanced and specific when it takes in several of these impacts at once. When this happens, the world is almost seen as a surface of a pool where each new objects that passes through it creates a ripple: the ripple is the secondary impact that is most readily felt by the Si valuer, and the specific physical thing that caused the impact is placed on a lower level of importance. In that way, "physical states" to Si valuers are akin to the current state of the surface of this pool: each new ripple contributes to an entirely new and entirely unique consolidated state.

    I've heard the term "homeostasis" used to describe Si, and it seems to me to be the most apt term possible for describing it. Si egos are constantly self-correcting this constantly fluxing physical field and trying to return it to a level of normalcy (like trying to get the swimming pool to be level again). Each new object that comes into this field creates a different sort of effect: either one that is conducive to the desired homeostasis, or one that works against it. Things that work cause this field to be obstructed in some way are eliminated from the field, and balance returns again.
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    You're overcomplicating it, Galen You were directly on the money when you said Si takes in the world as its feelings about it. After that, not much more really needs to be said.

    Si is focused on its relationship with sensory information. That comes from the pieces: Sensing functions take in sensory information, Introverted functions are focused on their relationship with that domain of information.

    As for the association between Si and internal states, since Introverted functions are also Field functions, Si will tend to read its body as a big system, and try to maintain that system's optimal state*. Though maybe that's just Si bases? I'm speaking largely from experience here.

    *Let's say I'm taking a shower, or eating a meal. If the water is too hot or too cold, it's painful or uncomfortable. My sense of temperature is a little module in the overall system that is "my internal state", and one of those modules being unhappy will contaminate the entire system with unpleasantness. If I'm eating something and it's too greasy or in some way unpleasant, that disrupts my "eating" module (which is lots of things... tactile sense for texture, taste for flavour, that vague indefinite "feeling" that Timeless was describing) which makes the rest of me feel completely crappy. Si dominance is basically being run by your internal state due to being completely immersed in how the system feels at all times (by virtue of how the Base function works).

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    wow, the original post seems like a bunch of good examples of Si use (in the Ego block)
    Anybody can relate?
    haha no i don't relate. i generally can't and/or don't do all that stuff you mentioned.

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Egbert Human View Post
    You're overcomplicating it, Galen You were directly on the money when you said Si takes in the world as its feelings about it. After that, not much more really needs to be said.
    Correlative logic != overcomplicating

    Quote Originally Posted by The Egbert Human View Post
    Si is focused on its relationship with sensory information. That comes from the pieces: Sensing functions take in sensory information, Introverted functions are focused on their relationship with that domain of information.
    I would argue that Sensing IEs aren't so much based in sensory information as much as they are based in concrete physicality. It's just that Se and Si observe concrete physicality through different lenses.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Egbert Human View Post
    *Let's say I'm taking a shower, or eating a meal. If the water is too hot or too cold, it's painful or uncomfortable. My sense of temperature is a little module in the overall system that is "my internal state", and one of those modules being unhappy will contaminate the entire system with unpleasantness. If I'm eating something and it's too greasy or in some way unpleasant, that disrupts my "eating" module (which is lots of things... tactile sense for texture, taste for flavour, that vague indefinite "feeling" that Timeless was describing) which makes the rest of me feel completely crappy. Si dominance is basically being run by your internal state due to being completely immersed in how the system feels at all times (by virtue of how the Base function works).
    Something about this seems a bit off, but I can't pinpoint what it is. Maybe it's because you're describing your own Si experiences in a kind of detached manner. It isn't that far off from what I was trying to say though, I was just trying to specify what exactly is going on in those kinds of examples
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    It's just that Se and Si observe concrete physicality through different lenses.
    This. As I implied above, it's not the what. It's the why and to some extent the how.

    Si as I understand it often makes me shudder, but that doesn't mean I want to take a tepid or scalding bath, or eat something I dislike or that causes indigestion.

    That said, I have seen Si-types be very fussy about such things where I pay little to no attention--and horrify them.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Correlative logic != overcomplicating
    No, I just think you went into more detail than needed and lost the plot a bit in the process. Rereading it though it makes sense, so no complaints.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I would argue that Sensing IEs aren't so much based in sensory information as much as they are based in concrete physicality. It's just that Se and Si observe concrete physicality through different lenses.
    Okay, that works better. We agree on how the Introversion affects the Sensing though, yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Something about this seems a bit off, but I can't pinpoint what it is. Maybe it's because you're describing your own Si experiences in a kind of detached manner. It isn't that far off from what I was trying to say though, I was just trying to specify what exactly is going on in those kinds of examples
    Could this mysterious thing be that you think I'm ILE? Anyway, it's an elegant way of fitting my experiences into the system.

    Just this morning I had a really godawful breakfast. The terribleness of it completely threw my inner sense of wellbeing off. Same if I eat really greasy food that is just insanely gross and icky, it contaminates my inner state and makes me as a whole feel gross and icky. It intuitively makes sense that that "comfort field" is connected to little things that feed into it for better or for worse, like my sense of taste, touch, smell, or hating disgusting grease (which is a sense, I swear to god).

    Part of the "problem" might be that it's tricky to isolate Si from Fe and get something useful. OTOH, that I even consider pure abstracts to be problematic might be the real problem.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Si is always perspective dependent, so it's not really about the physical state of things as much as it is about your state.

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Egbert Human View Post
    Just this morning I had a really godawful breakfast. The terribleness of it completely threw my inner sense of wellbeing off. Same if I eat really greasy food that is just insanely gross and icky, it contaminates my inner state and makes me as a whole feel gross and icky. It intuitively makes sense that that "comfort field" is connected to little things that feed into it for better or for worse, like my sense of taste, touch, smell, or hating disgusting grease (which is a sense, I swear to god).
    Lol, this kinda makes me want to clarify that depending on the individual at hand, what is seen as relevant to this physical/"comfort" field is going to vary. It seems like you, like my ENFp friend and ESFj dad, are more attuned to food stuffs, whereas my ISFp mom and I are more textural, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Egbert Human View Post
    Part of the "problem" might be that it's tricky to isolate Si from Fe and get something useful. OTOH, that I even consider pure abstracts to be problematic might be the real problem.
    Nah, Si and Fe are two pretty disparate processes and I don't really see an intermixing of the two in this case. I think more the problem is that I don't know if what you described in the exact way you described it is exclusive to Si valuers. I'd want to hear what others think of it though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nowisthetime View Post
    Anybody can relate? Comments? Please.
    In my experience, many function descriptions treat Si in a simplified manner and fail to recognize its nuances. For example, many of the typically-asserted concerns of Si - be they temperature, hunger, health, smells, etc. - seem more like anti-Se in that they deal with very stark, stand-alone, external qualities. I don't think that interpretation accurately describes what's going on.

    Si is a poorly-expressed function on its own, and relies a lot on the Fe/Te creative function - to the extent that they are almost equally matched, and indeed, may very much appear so to the external observer. This is because Si provides the foundation for that creative expression, and in the case of the ISTp, when Si is optimal, you're likely to recognize only the creative Te output. This explains why the ISTp can appear so damn lazy, inefficient, and ineffective when Si is running poorly.

    I've been trying to think of a decent analog describing the relationship between the two functions. The best I can come up with on the spur of the moment is that Te is like a powerful engine that can only be effective when the driver shifts at the appropriate powerbands (Si). You can sit there and rev the shit out of your car, make a lot of noise and burn a lot of gas, and have absolutely nothing to show for it. Or, you can treat Si as do you average function descriptions, and have an anti-Se passenger shouting commands at you while you drive:

    "Shift now!"

    "Turn left!"

    "Watch out for that pedestrian!"

    How effective does anyone drive under those circumstances? The Si driver might listen to a few commands, but before long is completely ignoring them. This is where the POLR comes in - this is why you cannot coax an ISTp ("come on, it'll be FUN; oOoOoh, why are you SUCH a wet blahhhn-ket?!!1") and direct an ISFp ("What you should do is: 1) pick your nose, 2) calculate this partial derivative, 3) live happily ever after"). They don't give a shit about external yapping, and contrary to the notion of them being threatened by it, they just refuse to play ball.

    The lone ISTp driver blocks out the passenger's commands in favour of automatically processing external signs internally, and adapt their driving accordingly. When this process is optimized, the ISTp recognizes it as 'flow'. Think of any athelete that gets in the zone and seems untouchable - they are employing flow, and that internal sense of flow allows them to express some pretty creative and outstanding shit. The hockey player weaves his way in on goal and flips the puck top shelf over the goalie's shoulder. The handyman builds a shed with no schematic. The musician writes a haunting tune with dissonant chords that makes you want to weep. None of these things should work for any number of reasons, but they do. And they work because of flow - everything just seems to fall into place, and Si is very instrumental in that.

    When it's working properly.

    The problem with the above concoction is trying to figure out what's affecting Si when it's NOT running optimally. Is it, in fact, a case of the anti-Se? Or is it because Si is so directionless that it requires a large input from other functions? I think it probably IS a bit of both, but more affected by the latter. Because Si is so concerned about flow, it's especially sensitive to positive and negative feedback loops.

    It's like an old car with a dead battery: to start it, you need to throw it in gear and get it moving, for that will cause the engine to start. But how can you get it moving when the problem is that it's NOT moving? Well, you phone up your buddies (other functions) and get them to push the car while you, the Si driver, sit behind the wheel and chuckle at your red-faced friends in the rear-view mirror. They're important NOW, but once you get driving, they become pretty irrelevant because, hey, dude, YOU'RE DRIVING.

    ...at least, that's what I think. Feel free to disagree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Si is always perspective dependent, so it's not really about the physical state of things as much as it is about your state.
    Yes. I agree. I've known SLI who can live in utter clutter of a messy home and yet their internal state be completely content. But then some strange things will really bother them and they will jump right up and rush to that sensation (a sound, as an example)

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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    ...at least, that's what I think. Feel free to disagree.
    I thought it was nicely explained
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  17. #17
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    From experience, the basic thing Ne doms do for me is feed new stuff into the system. I'm not hugely adventurous or exploratory and I find that ILEs and IEEs are excellent at expanding what my world includes. IEEs are also really good at relentlessly heckling me to do stuff. [EDIT: though I suppose ILEs don't really need to heckle me in the first place. They'll just come up with random crazy stuff for me to get swept up in. One of my friends keeps introducing me to people in his global network, which is cool.]

    OTOH, I've been told by my close ILE friends that I have a calming and balancing effect on them.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Egbert Human View Post
    From experience, the basic thing Ne doms do for me is feed new stuff into the system. I'm not hugely adventurous or exploratory and I find that ILEs and IEEs are excellent at expanding what my world includes. IEEs are also really good at relentlessly heckling me to do stuff. [EDIT: though I suppose ILEs don't really need to heckle me in the first place. They'll just come up with random crazy stuff for me to get swept up in. One of my friends keeps introducing me to people in his global network, which is cool.]

    OTOH, I've been told by my close ILE friends that I have a calming and balancing effect on them.
    You have a calming and balancing effect on me too

    So does DJ; Dj's pace also exudes a calming, even pace, and rhythm on me too.

    Not really all the other Se types.

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