Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 56

Thread: Ti and Fi

  1. #1
    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Third Planet
    TIM
    IEE-Ne
    Posts
    1,631
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Ti and Fi

    The most important teaching of socionics is that we all see reality distorted according to our personal preferences. And only those who are different from us are capable of noticing it.

    Since I'm a Fi valuer myself, it is my turn to explain how deformed the views of the Ti valuers are.

    Ti is small scale logics and Fi is large scale logics. A Ti valuer has a natural tendency to analyze stuff in a detached way. Sees a statement and any given information and determines wheter there is coherence, validity and the like. Ti is the ability to present ideas in a way they require nothing else to be understood; encapsulated.

    Fi valuers, however, do not communicate in such a way. Fi valuers have an intelligence which is associative and when presenting an idea, they simply share the filter which arranged the existing information in an specific way (Fi). Their natural interlocutor is a Te valuer, who knows a lot of information and uses the Fi filter to arrange his own information in that particular way, to arrive to the same conclusion the Fi valuer has. Te valuers analyze the factual aspect of the communication and notice when an association is being made on false grounds. They use Ti, but it is subordinated to Te.

    When Fi and Ti types do not understand each other, it is always because Ti valuers are unable to compensate for information which is not explicitely shared (because they use Te, but it is ultimately subordinated to Ti), or are unable to build their own frameworks to understand the relationship between raw information when there is none given explicitely.

    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

    You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life.
    - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.

  2. #2
    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    everywhere at once
    Posts
    8,449
    Mentioned
    203 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Since I'm a Fi valuer myself, it is my turn to explain how deformed the views of the Ti valuers are.


    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    lol what

    Both Fi and Ti egos are equally capable of understanding complexity in dealing with information; it's just that they do it in different, incompatible ways. You can't honestly say that Ti egos can't understand complex ways of handling information because they do, just in ways you can't understand.
    Last edited by Galen; 02-16-2011 at 06:42 AM.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

  3. #3
    Creepy-Snaps

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    The most important teaching of socionics is that we all see reality distorted according to our personal preferences. And only those who are different from us are capable of noticing it.

    Since I'm a Fi valuer myself, it is my turn to explain how deformed the views of the Ti valuers are.

    Ti is small scale logics and Fi is large scale logics. A Ti valuer has a natural tendency to analyze stuff in a detached way. Sees a statement and any given information and determines wheter there is coherence, validity and the like. Ti is the ability to present ideas in a way they require nothing else to be understood; encapsulated.

    Fi valuers, however, do not communicate in such a way. Fi valuers have an intelligence which is associative and when presenting an idea, they simply share the filter which arranged the existing information in an specific way (Fi). Their natural interlocutor is a Te valuer, who knows a lot of information and uses the Fi filter to arrange his own information in that particular way, to arrive to the same conclusion the Fi valuer has. Te valuers analyze the factual aspect of the communication and notice when an association is being made on false grounds. They use Ti, but it is subordinated to Te.

    When Fi and Ti types do not understand each other, it is always because Ti valuers are unable to compensate for information which is not explicitely shared (because they use Te, but it is ultimately subordinated to Ti), or are unable to build their own frameworks to understand the relationship between raw information when there is none given explicitely.

    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    BLAH BLAH BLAH. This whole post can be summed up as:

    HEY GUYS! I'M AN FI-VALUER, SO I'M BETTER THAN YOU!

    You do not understand large-scale socionics, and are misusing it to justify why you're better than people.

    Not all Ti-valuers have "deformed views". It would be healthier if you considered that some of the people you disagree with perhaps could still be in your own quadra, and not use socionics to justify why your views are better than others.

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    US
    TIM
    IEI-Ni 4w5 sx/so
    Posts
    733
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    UMADBRO???

  5. #5
    Creepy-Snaps

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    UMADBRO???
    Yes. Very much so. Hypocritical people.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    The most important teaching of socionics is that we all see reality distorted according to our personal preferences.
    People who don't realize they are ironically distorting reality to make a false statement how others distort reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    Conclusion: Sometimes we all understand complex ideas that we think won't be comprehensible by other types. It doesn't mean that other people's opinions are "deformed" if they're just different.

  6. #6
    Creepy-Snaps

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Since I'm a Fi valuer myself, it is my turn to explain how deformed the views of the Ti valuers are.
    And that is just pure arrogance.

  7. #7
    Imagine Timeless's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    San Francisco, CA.
    TIM
    ILE/ENTp
    Posts
    819
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Even if you value something, it doesn't mean it is the only right way and the other other way is wrong, or in other words; & may be different, but they not better or worse than one another.

    That goes for all IMs actually.

     
    Rules! Drools.

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    US
    TIM
    IEI-Ni 4w5 sx/so
    Posts
    733
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    oh that was to OP not you MD, lol, that was ridiculous xD

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    When Fi and Ti types do not understand each other, it is always because Ti valuers are unable to compensate for information which is not explicitly shared (because they use Te, but it is ultimately subordinated to Ti), or are unable to build their own frameworks to understand the relationship between raw information when there is none given explicitly.
    THAT in particular is just..... LOL. BECAUSE WHEN AN FI VALUER AND A TI VALUER DON'T UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER IT IS BECAUSE OF THE TI VALUER. i am giggling so much right now. you're hilarious.

  9. #9
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    lol @ mikemex's ego. just lololol at the arrogant ego thinking its better.

    When anybody attacks with their ego, it means their true self is hurt. Wanna talk about it mikemex?

    Now she'll just say 'You're using your Fe to judge my post as emotionally arrogant when there isn't really the issue' or something like that. The things people do to excuse themselves of being assholes.

    Just more fuel for my art. Keep it coming guys. You're gonna make me famous one day.

  10. #10
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    The most important teaching of socionics is that we all see reality distorted according to our personal preferences.
    Not always true. Anybody can train themselves to be objective if they try hard enough. It just takes more effort, and most people are lazy by default, so we operate on ego-basis reality. Also there really isn't much point in being objective, unless you're making art or something. (the subjective perception mixed with the objective reality)

    There doesn't seem to be any self-gain for being objective that way, so most people don't do it. But really, it's the only thing that ever makes anyone happy.

    All an individual does is have to *try* and work at it. It's spiritually satisfying undoing your own ego and your own projections about things. Like for example your perception that you think in a more complicated and sophisticated way than me.

  11. #11
    Creepy-Snaps

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    oh that was to OP not you MD, lol, that was ridiculous xD



    THAT in particular is just..... LOL. BECAUSE WHEN AN FI VALUER AND A TI VALUER DON'T UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER IT IS BECAUSE OF THE TI VALUER. i am giggling so much right now. you're hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    lol @ mikemex's ego. just lololol at the arrogant ego thinking its better.

    When anybody attacks with their ego, it means their true self is hurt. Wanna talk about it mikemex?

    Now she'll just say 'You're using your Fe to judge my post as emotionally arrogant when there isn't really the issue' or something like that. The things people do to excuse themselves of being assholes.

    Just more fuel for my art. Keep it coming guys. You're gonna make me famous one day.
    IEIs. You both relax me. It is more a lol thing, I shouldn't have been so harsh.

    Sorry mikemex that, for whatever reason you drew your conclusions, you were misunderstood. Obviously your ideas and insight are important. Obviously you'll get things that others won't. But it doesn't mean your ideas are better than others, that's all.

    Sorry you've been misunderstood. Or are perhaps surrounded by people whose views are so different than your own. There are a lot of stupid people out there, that's for sure.

  12. #12
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    You guys are having an obvious conflictory type argument. Don't you think you should leave this thread alone DW?

  13. #13
    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Holy Temple of St. Augusta
    Posts
    3,693
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Ti is small scale logics and Fi is large scale logics.

    ....

    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    lol gg .







    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

    31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
    My work on Inert/Contact subtypes

    Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
    Socionics Tests Database
    Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites


    Fidei Defensor

  14. #14
    Creepy-Snaps

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    You guys are having an obvious conflictory type argument. Don't you think you should leave this thread alone DW?
    I'm not LSI Maritsa. If you wish to discuss my type, please follow the link in my signature.

    Super-Egos can argue too. So can Mirrors. Duals. Any type. You're making the same mistake mikemex made and pointing to socionics immediately and making generalizations.

    Surely you wouldn't let someone go ahead and think their type is better than everyone else's?

  15. #15
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,107
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I for one appreciated this. Subjective descriptions of functions are quite useful, and we have had an unbalanced share of Ti valuers highlighting all the flaws of Fi. And while, of course, I gladly assert that any type is capable of complex thinking, I think I see, to a degree, what you mean: Ti is incapable of understanding implicit information, framework information. Fi gives the framework and assumes the content inputs. Ti has to see each place where the content and framework interact, meticulously. Also, Ti tends not to operate on the heuristic (of how to reason, or how to interpret data), but is the application of the heuristic (of interpretation) to the data. (Of course, Ti can and does generate heuristical maxims of how to do something, from experience, especially TiSe). So what's the natural fit of Ti, then?

    Implicit goes to complex; explicit goes to simple. I like it.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  16. #16
    Slippery when wet Simon Ssmall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    ✈ ↺
    Posts
    2,231
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    The most important teaching of socionics is that we all see reality distorted according to our personal preferences. And only those who are different from us are capable of noticing it.

    Since I'm a Fi valuer myself, it is my turn to explain how deformed the views of the Ti valuers are.

    Ti is small scale logics and Fi is large scale logics. A Ti valuer has a natural tendency to analyze stuff in a detached way. Sees a statement and any given information and determines wheter there is coherence, validity and the like. Ti is the ability to present ideas in a way they require nothing else to be understood; encapsulated.

    Fi valuers, however, do not communicate in such a way. Fi valuers have an intelligence which is associative and when presenting an idea, they simply share the filter which arranged the existing information in an specific way (Fi). Their natural interlocutor is a Te valuer, who knows a lot of information and uses the Fi filter to arrange his own information in that particular way, to arrive to the same conclusion the Fi valuer has. Te valuers analyze the factual aspect of the communication and notice when an association is being made on false grounds. They use Ti, but it is subordinated to Te.

    When Fi and Ti types do not understand each other, it is always because Ti valuers are unable to compensate for information which is not explicitely shared (because they use Te, but it is ultimately subordinated to Ti), or are unable to build their own frameworks to understand the relationship between raw information when there is none given explicitely.

    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    You are a sad sad person.
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

    ENFp - Fi 7w6 sp/sx
    The Ineffable IEI
    The Einstein ENTp

    johari nohari
    http://www.mypersonality.info/ssmall/

  17. #17
    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Germany
    TIM
    Ne-LII, 5w6
    Posts
    3,648
    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Ti is small scale logics and Fi is large scale logics.
    Fi people think logically? Didn't know...

    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

  18. #18
    Haikus
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    8,337
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ti is a small penis logic.

  19. #19
    lump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    TIM
    Fi/Te 641 sp/sx
    Posts
    12,613
    Mentioned
    632 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    lmfao

  20. #20
    Creepy-male

    Default

    OTOH, Ti PoLRs are deformed because they can't lay out their reasoning on the table in the name of clear communication.

    See what I did there?

  21. #21
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Fi is the function that levels a carnal reaction toward the area of complex issues. It is probably the most unequivocally stupid function.

  22. #22
    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    North Korea
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    8,819
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This is probably the most unequivocally stupid thread.

  23. #23
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    it became good when I posted in it. Your carnal reaction is noted, though.

  24. #24
    lump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    TIM
    Fi/Te 641 sp/sx
    Posts
    12,613
    Mentioned
    632 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    carnal

  25. #25

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Western KY, USA
    Posts
    19
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Flame War aside, I have a serious question. Based on what logic is any given element more efficient at identifying (or describing) any other element? Based on my understanding, each of the information elements is capable of identifying the belying behaviors of each of the other elements.

  26. #26
    So fluffeh. Cuddly McFluffles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    TIM
    ESI
    Posts
    2,780
    Mentioned
    28 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    There isn't much to add to this thread, really. Every element has its handicaps and its strengths; to say " sucks, and my favored IME is so much better," is kinda stupid. types apparently feel that way about your favored IME, too.

    ----------------

    *hands MD a sedative*
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

  27. #27
    Slippery when wet Simon Ssmall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    ✈ ↺
    Posts
    2,231
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    It's no longer a dating site, so why aren't you joining now?
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

    ENFp - Fi 7w6 sp/sx
    The Ineffable IEI
    The Einstein ENTp

    johari nohari
    http://www.mypersonality.info/ssmall/

  28. #28
    squark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,116
    Mentioned
    140 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    Fuck you.

  29. #29
    Crispy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,097
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I still like these:
    Ti = Mental Caregiver / Emotional Victim
    Fi = Emotional Caregiver / Mental Victim
    "Stupid" might actually be a good word for the unhealthy end of the Fi spectrum, but it is not all that makes up the function.
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

  30. #30
    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Third Planet
    TIM
    IEE-Ne
    Posts
    1,631
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Your own prejudice. I never claimed to be any better, I just said that being Fi myself I can pinpoint exactly how Ti valuers deform reality. Where did I say that I don't deform it myself?

    I just say that there are two and not one, aspects to truth: coherence (form) and empirical validity (substance). It is a common issue among Ti valuers to take for granted that the logical consistency of an statement automatically makes it either true or false. We all know what happens then one applies sound logic to absurd things: the theological discussions of the middle age are a good example.

    See this:

    Quote Originally Posted by W.I.E. Gates
    Then there is the man who drowned while crossing a stream that was, on average, 6 inches deep.
    Such confusion comes from the fact that Ti valuers analyze stuff in a detached way, this is, without a broader context in mind. But why this happens is more interesting. Logic is exacting and thus impractical for handling complexity, simply because complexity means a large number of variables and the more the variables, the more the processing power requiered. People such as Ray Kurzweil (ILE) go as far as to claim that the issue of artificial intelligence is mere brute force, which is ignorant, to say the least. This is the deformation of reality I was talking about: Kurzweil presents the problem the way he understands it, assuming it is the only way.

    If logical analysis is one form of thinking what is the other? Well, it is statistical analysis. Statistics exchanges small scale coherence for large scale efficiency. Thus, Fi valuers are capable of handling an almost infninite number of variables at the expense of not being exacting. Think in terms of digital vs analog recordings.

    My point remains: True complexity is the field of competence of Fi valuers.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

    You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life.
    - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.

  31. #31
    Crispy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,097
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction
    Albert Einstein
    I agree that Fi valuers make things complicated, and Ti valuers simplify things.

    Relationships are Complicated
    Logic is Simple
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

  32. #32
    So fluffeh. Cuddly McFluffles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    TIM
    ESI
    Posts
    2,780
    Mentioned
    28 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Complaining about black-and-white thinking and not accounting for variables sounds like a valued/devalued issue, not vs .
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

  33. #33
    lump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    TIM
    Fi/Te 641 sp/sx
    Posts
    12,613
    Mentioned
    632 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction
    Albert Einstein

    I agree that Fi valuers make things complicated, and Ti valuers simplify things.
    lol. i love this thread.

  34. #34
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    your face deforms reality.

  35. #35
    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Holy Temple of St. Augusta
    Posts
    3,693
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    I agree that Fi valuers make things complicated, and Ti valuers simplify things.

    Relationships are Complicated for me
    Logic is Simple for me
    Fix'd.
    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

    31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
    My work on Inert/Contact subtypes

    Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
    Socionics Tests Database
    Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites


    Fidei Defensor

  36. #36
    Creepy-Snaps

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    *hands MD a sedative*


    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Your own prejudice. I never claimed to be any better, I just said that being Fi myself I can pinpoint exactly how Ti valuers deform reality. Where did I say that I don't deform it myself?
    It's not that you said that you don't deform it yourself, it's that you didn't say you did deform it yourself. Get the logic? Therefore it was offensive. Also that you said Ti was incapable of handling complex information, without mentioning the opposite side of the assumption, that Fi is incapable of handling simple information.

    Also, I would like to see the 'assumed' threads where Ti people bash on Fi. Not that a counterattack is a justified healthy response, but it'd be more understandable.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    See this:
    Was there a point to that quote? (Metaphors without explanations annoy me) So, the average depth of the stream was 6 inches, (actually enough to drown in, you can drown in a cup of water technically), but who's to say it wasn't several feet deep in some places? Are you just saying, that as an example Ti naturally 'assumes' or 'classifies' things in a very simple manner, considering the use of an average, as opposed to seeing the big picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    My point remains: True complexity is the field of competence of Fi valuers.
    Perhaps. I'm not arguing with your insights/points that perhaps Fi valuers excel at complexity moreso than Ti, but to say that Ti is "unable" is just wrong. And close-minded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    I agree that Fi valuers make things complicated, and Ti valuers simplify things.
    I generally agree with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Complaining about black-and-white thinking and not accounting for variables sounds like a valued/devalued issue, not vs .
    Exactly. I think, in general, mikemex is confusing their insights between Fi and Ti, when really, it's about valued Ne, appreciating complexity.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    My point remains: True complexity is the field of competence of Fi valuers.
    I know I said "perhaps" already. But, on 2nd thoughts, that's a pretty crazy statement, to say that Fi-devaluers, namely Ti-valuers, can't have complexity in their field of competency.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    People such as Ray Kurzweil (ILE) go as far as to claim that the issue of artificial intelligence is mere brute force, which is ignorant, to say the least. This is the deformation of reality I was talking about: Kurzweil presents the problem the way he understands it, assuming it is the only way.
    How can you assume what he's assuming (How can you assume what's in his head? That's very subjective.)? By that quote even, I don't think he's assuming his way is the only way. That's just his expression.

    That's your assumption. You're assuming ILEs can't handle complexity, or think their way is the only way, when that's not the case.

    Do give more examples of ILEs. Ne as a control in our test. Ti and Fi as the independent variables. Let's hear more false assumptions of presumed ILEs believing their way is the "only" way.

    Not that this is worth even arguing with someone so close-minded to not see the open-mindedness in others (namely ILEs), but what the heck. It's ironic but I'll give it a shot.

    *takes another sedative*

  37. #37

    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Posts
    0
    Mentioned
    Post(s)
    Tagged
    Thread(s)

    Default

    I think that rather than say "distorted views of reality," the OP should have said "biased views of reality". Clearly, we see or seek some aspects of reality, and do not see or seek other aspects of reality. Our perceptions of reality are based primarily on the Ego block and the Demonstrative function (or at least, that is how I understand it), and since information of all the IM elements exists, I think "bias" is a suitable word to describe how we tailor reality to fit our predominant elements and avoid information from elements we don't like.

    Even still... I can't say I agree with the OP. Where are you coming to your conclusions; on what data?

    Also, there is clear arrogance and bias in your post which makes me question whether you are presenting information factually without putting your own interpretation on it.

    My conclusion is that your conclusion essentially has no basis and is merely a product of extreme personal bias or misunderstanding.

  38. #38
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    F functions conclude from generalizations. They differ from N functions in that they close off an issue based on the generalization rather than starting an investigation into the issue. In Fi's case it means exactly that the complex matter is judged without being fully reviewed. A unit of Te (i.e. empirically direct distinction) is seen as the sole warranty for the judgment. No matter how many other details of the topic are examined, the F judgment locks down the conclusion on behalf of all other facets to the issue.

  39. #39
    Juvenile shindaiwa21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles
    TIM
    H-ILE 6w7 sp/sx
    Posts
    114
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    The most important teaching of socionics is that we all see reality distorted according to our personal preferences. And only those who are different from us are capable of noticing it.

    Since I'm a Fi valuer myself, it is my turn to explain how deformed the views of the Ti valuers are.

    Ti is small scale logics and Fi is large scale logics. A Ti valuer has a natural tendency to analyze stuff in a detached way. Sees a statement and any given information and determines wheter there is coherence, validity and the like. Ti is the ability to present ideas in a way they require nothing else to be understood; encapsulated.

    Fi valuers, however, do not communicate in such a way. Fi valuers have an intelligence which is associative and when presenting an idea, they simply share the filter which arranged the existing information in an specific way (Fi). Their natural interlocutor is a Te valuer, who knows a lot of information and uses the Fi filter to arrange his own information in that particular way, to arrive to the same conclusion the Fi valuer has. Te valuers analyze the factual aspect of the communication and notice when an association is being made on false grounds. They use Ti, but it is subordinated to Te.

    When Fi and Ti types do not understand each other, it is always because Ti valuers are unable to compensate for information which is not explicitely shared (because they use Te, but it is ultimately subordinated to Ti), or are unable to build their own frameworks to understand the relationship between raw information when there is none given explicitely.

    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    I disagree. On a societal level, Ti and Fi are symbiotic. Fi is the rock upon which society is built. It accepts the fundamental reactions that it is programmed to have by its' culture and surroundings and proceeds to blindly obey them. Now you might be thinking that sounds awful, and without considering its purpose in the greater scheme of things, it would be. The point is a stagnant society will die, but so will one what changes too rapidly, which is exactly what Ti does, examining things for their actual value without cultural or emotional context, driving evolution, but left untempered this could easily lead to destruction with the implementation of a few ideas that are a little bit off kilter, and that is why you Fi rocks provide the perfect medium for Ti to sculpt the future upon, not too soft. We wouldn't want to get overeager and chip away too fast lest we run out of a medium to bring form and order to, in which case existence would be meaningless.

    Arctures: delta just produces boring people
    Arctures: but that's how we like it

    vero: who needs a real person
    vero: That's why I date an SLI

    dolphin: someone tell gulanzon adjusting shower water to the right temperature is not si

    Kraezz: you just have to do the Hitler thing sometimes

  40. #40
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Conclusion: Mikemex has an innability to understand complex ways to handle information.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •