THE RULES

[golden]

Shorter version: "Pretend it's 1955."

Yeah. The Rules almost don't warrant analysis beyond that quick-and-dirty statement. I still find them symptomatic of real problems, even if the proffered solution is anachronistic and hare-brained.

[squark]

If he's turned off by how you really are, guess what? Time to move on.

Yep. Agree completely.

[Creepy-Korpsey]

Yeah. The Rules almost don't warrant analysis beyond that quick-and-dirty statement. I still find them symptomatic of real problems, even if the proffered solution is anachronistic and hare-brained.

As with all books, it'd be useful to learn the author's biographical details to better understand what informs her message and intentions. Is what she imparts drawn from successful experience, or is her social history marred with frustrations and failures that cause her to write from an idealized sense of what-should-be?

You're correct, too, to point out that the familiar guideposts of tradition have fallen by the wayside, victims of economic necessity and individual/social caprice. The nuclear family has disintegrated as gender roles have been blurred over the last half century or so, from women "manning" American factories in WWII, to the libidinal liberation of the 1960s, to women entering the workplace en masse from the 1970s on. And despite the near-pornographic sensuality of the mass media that drives our trash-heap culture, the US still abides strangely by its atavistic, puritanical mores, and so licence and confusion reign side by side.

That said, on their face these Rules (re-)introduce readers to a measure of traditional propriety, which itself provides a reasonable hope of finding a man of quality; failing that, they will at least give women a lead on weeding out those who lack ambition, means, or decorum.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

As with all books, it'd be useful to learn the author's biographical details to better understand what informs her message and intentions. Is what she imparts drawn from successful experience, or is her social history marred with frustrations and failures that cause her to write from an idealized sense of what-should-be?

You're correct, too, to point out that the familiar guideposts of tradition have fallen by the wayside, victims of economic necessity and individual/social caprice. The nuclear family has disintegrated as gender roles have been blurred over the last half century or so, from women "manning" American factories in WWII, to the libidinal liberation of the 1960s, to women entering the workplace en masse from the 1970s on. And despite the near-pornographic sensuality of the mass media that drives our trash-heap culture, the US still abides strangely by its atavistic, puritanical mores, and so licence and confusion reign side by side.

That said, on their face these Rules (re-)introduce readers to a measure of traditional propriety, which itself provides a reasonable hope of finding a man of quality; failing that, they will at least give women a lead on weeding out those who lack ambition, means, or decorum.

Fascinating post.

I think some of the rules are doable, and some aren't.

[Creepy-Korpsey]

Thanks.

A bit of info on the two authors:

Ellen Fein

Sherrie Schneider

[jessica129]

Men are From Mars, Women are from Venus, Why Men Love Bitches, He's Just Not that Into You, etc mean well I guess but I think people take them too literally and try to use it to explain their behavior and justify things. If you're consistently not winning at the dating game, maybe you need a personality? Stop reading these stupid books and work on that.

[Capitalist Pig]

Like most of the respondents, I think some of the rules are good while others are too vague or seem stupid and are not applicable to every situation. For the record, I voted Bad/Gamma.

I also agree strongly with what most of Ashton and Jessica have already said.

edit: Here is my rule-by-rule critique.

Rule 1. Be a "Creature Unlike Any Other."

Sort of vague, but I get the underlying premise. Being unique and spontaneous is a good thing, but it shouldn't overshadow just being yourself.

Rule 2. Don't Talk to a Man First (and Don't Ask Him to Dance).

I think this rule is rather archaic and I don't see any reason why a man or a woman couldn't initiate contact.

Rule 3. Don't Stare at Men or Talk Too Much.

I guess I can agree with this.

Rule 4 Don't Meet Him Halfway or Go Dutch on a Date.

I dunno what going "dutch" means, this rule is too vague for me to comment on.

Rule 5 Don't Call Him and Rarely Return His Calls.

If this rule is saying don't call him/me ever, I think it is stupid. This is a terrible rule.

Rule 6 Always End Phone Calls First.

Stupid.

Rule 7 Don't Accept a Saturday Night Date after Wednesday.

What? Stupid.

Rule 8 Fill Up Your Time before the Date.

Huh?

Rule 9 How to Act on Dates 1, 2, and 3.
Rule 10 How to Act on Dates 4 through Commitment Time.

No comment.

Rule 11 Always End the Date First.

Why? Stupid.

Rule 12 Stop Dating Him if He Doesn't Buy You a Romantic Gift for Your Birthday or Valentine's Day

Stupid and superficial. I mean, I'm prone to do this anyway, but if I didn't that is hardly a reason to stop dating.

Rule 13 Don't See Him More than Once or Twice a Week.

Well, I think how often you see each other should really depend on the circumstances. In general, I think this is a good idea, especially when you're just starting out. But I don't see why 3 or 4 times a week is inappropriate as the relationship develops over time.

Rule 14 No More than Casual Kissing on the First Date.
Rule 15 Don't Rush into Sex and Other Rules for Intimacy.
Rule 16 Don't Tell Him What to Do.

One exception to #16 is if I ask for your opinion or suggestion.

Rule 17 Let him take the Lead.

Eh, I naturally try to do this anyway, but I don't mind when a woman takes charge.

Rule 18 Don't Expect a Man to Change or Try to Change Him.

Rule 19 Don't Open Up Too Fast.

Yeah, good advice.

Rule 20 Be Honest but Mysterious.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean, but if you're trying to create a sense of intrigue I think it will just end in failure. If you're not naturally intriguing to me, I won't be beguiled with a false sense of intrigue.

Rule 21 Accentuate the Positive and Other Rules for Personal Ads.

Too vague to comment.

Rule 22 Don't Live with a Man (or Leave Your Things in His Apartment).

This is especially good when your relationship is young.

Rule 23 Don't Date a Married Man.
Rule 24 Slowly Involve Him in Your Family and Other Rules for Women with Children

Rule 25 Practice, Practice, Practice! (Or, Getting Good at The Rules).

Practice makes perfect, I guess?

[DirectorAbbie]

My thoughts on these never-before-seen rules:

Rule 1. Be a "Creature Unlike Any Other." An obvious goal.
Rule 2. Don't Talk to a Man First (and Don't Ask Him to Dance). Might have to talk first if he's an introvert.
Rule 3. Don't Stare at Men or Talk Too Much. I'll stare hard at anyone I don't like the look of. It keeps them away.
Rule 4 Don't Meet Him Halfway or Go Dutch on a Date. Meeting him halfway might be acceptable.
Rule 5 Don't Call Him and Rarely Return His Calls. That's just rude.
Rule 6 Always End Phone Calls First. Why?
Rule 7 Don't Accept a Saturday Night Date after Wednesday. If it still fits into my schedule, why not?
Rule 8 Fill Up Your Time before the Date. How?
Rule 9 How to Act on Dates 1, 2, and 3. Not a complete sentence.
Rule 10 How to Act on Dates 4 through Commitment Time. Not a complete sentence.
Rule 11 Always End the Date First. Okay.
Rule 12 Stop Dating Him if He Doesn't Buy You a Romantic Gift for Your Birthday or Valentine's DayKnowing what I like is more important than knowing what's romantic.
Rule 13 Don't See Him More than Once or Twice a Week. Why?
Rule 14 No More than Casual Kissing on the First Date. Kissing on a first date?!
Rule 15 Don't Rush into Sex and Other Rules for Intimacy. Obviously.
Rule 16 Don't Tell Him What to Do. Fine, but I'll suggest it.
Rule 17 Let him take the Lead. Sure.
Rule 18 Don't Expect a Man to Change or Try to Change Him. Sure.
Rule 19 Don't Open Up Too Fast. Working on it.
Rule 20 Be Honest but Mysterious. How?
Rule 21 Accentuate the Positive and Other Rules for Personal Ads. Complete honesty is better.
Rule 22 Don't Live with a Man (or Leave Your Things in His Apartment). Obviously.
Rule 23 Don't Date a Married Man. Obviously.
Rule 24 Slowly Involve Him in Your Family and Other Rules for Women with Children N/A
Rule 25 Practice, Practice, Practice! (Or, Getting Good at The Rules). Eh?

[somavision]

I think that the rules (as presented) in themselves don't seem particualrly harmful as long as they're taken with a pinch of salt.
However I disagree with many of them and I believe that others can be simplified and if acted upon as presented may cause some people to act in a way that isn't authentic to themselves. My rules would be as follows

1. Respect yourself and you will attract those that will respect you.
2. Act honestly and remain true to who you are and you will attract those who would be attracted to who you are.
3. Listen to your heart and your true instincts.
4. Do what you want to do.
5. Pick the charactor from Sex And The City, you most relate to and when in moments of doubt ask yourself "What would ****** do?"

[somavision]

lol... no.

Works for me, I use Carrie.

[jessica129]

I think the most idiot proof way to be successful at relationships is by realizing that relationships consist of two people and it takes effort on both parts. I've met a few women who tell themselves I'M NEVER GOING TO CALL HIM FIRST and it's so dumb. They WANT to call him, but they're sticking to some old fashioned idea that it's 'improper' for the girl to show interest. If a guy is always the one calling you, always being the one initiating, that shows a clear lack of interest on the womans part and he'll more than likely either get tired or assume you don't care and end it...rightfully so. If you want to do something, just do it. If someone thinks negatively about you for doing what feels natural to you, are they really worth it? People just overthink this stuff and it's so simple.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

this list is creepy.the whole dating/relationship ritual is creepy.
every single sentence sounds like something carrie bradshaw yould reflect upon late at night and this is not good.
lucid nailed it once again.

[Creepy-]

Anyone who, in their critique of these "rules," presents their own opinion of these in any way other than subjectively (not that anyone has done that; frankly, I don't care enough to read the critiques), are entirely missing the point.

A few years ago I would have simply said "This list is bullshit." Having knowledge of typology now, skepticism of these rules as "catch-alls" actually has weight, but I will admit that they do work for some people.

[Galen]

I think the most idiot proof way to be successful at relationships is by realizing that relationships consist of two people and it takes effort on both parts. I've met a few women who tell themselves I'M NEVER GOING TO CALL HIM FIRST and it's so dumb. They WANT to call him, but they're sticking to some old fashioned idea that it's 'improper' for the girl to show interest. If a guy is always the one calling you, always being the one initiating, that shows a clear lack of interest on the womans part and he'll more than likely either get tired or assume you don't care and end it...rightfully so. If you want to do something, just do it. If someone thinks negatively about you for doing what feels natural to you, are they really worth it? People just overthink this stuff and it's so simple.

Basically everything in this paragraph.

[Capitalist Pig]

btw, I don't like the idea of "rules" for dating. The idea of it is actually pretty gross. Its better to just let things flow organically & go with your instincts.

A-fucking-men.

[Hitta]

Most retarded thing I've ever read. I feel dumber for reading it.

[Creepy-]

This reminds me of what Rick wrote about duals' "zones of responsibility," where he outlines how types might be expected to behave when they're acting/interacting naturally.

If all women followed The Rules, male introverts -- and especially intuitive introverts -- would be out of luck a lot of the time....


The "Zones of Responsibilty":

In the beginning stages of dual relationships things go more smoothly if partners stick to type-related "zones of responsibility" and leave the other areas to their duals. Trying to take over areas that the other person is more competent in and sensitive to can cause awkwardness and misunderstandings. Later, when people know each other well, much more flexibility is possible. Here is a rough outline of those zones of responsibility:

Extravert:
Adding new "food" (new material, situations, or facets) to the relationship. Expanding the relationship. Calling the other up and actively showing interest (in the beginning of the relationship).

Introvert:
Keeping inventory of what ground has been covered in the relationship. Processing the relationship. Accepting others' invitations (in the beginning of the relationship).

Senser:
Deciding when and how much physical contact and sensory pleasure will take place.

Intuiter:
Establishing resonance with the other person's ideas and values.

Thinker:
Deciding how activities should be organized, keeping track of plans and agreements.

Feeler:
Deciding what kinds of feelings and emotions will be displayed, smoothing over misunderstandings.

SOURCE: http://www.socionics.us/practice/duality.shtml