LSIs/ISTjs feeling anger and irritation

[Jimbean]

Hello, I would like advice from ISTj’s or people who a lot of experience with ISTj’s.


I work with an ISTj and all around he is a cool guy. He tends to get pretty angry from time to time, ranging anything from dealing with customers to his fellow employees. Sometimes he gets angry towards me, and depending on the reasons for his anger I may either just ignore him or choose to argue back at him. Yesterday we were having a holiday fest and our department had to put people at free sampling stations, I was one of them. I was ordered throughout the time to do certain things that diverted my attention away from our department. After the holiday fest was over with, I managed to do whatever I could, but then I forgot to do a few things that related to cleaning everything up. The ISTj thought that I was creating a situation so that he would have to clean up after me; basically he thought that I was purposely acting against him, and when I tried to explain to him that it was not the case, he basically called me a liar. I was not happy with that at all. I could not help but get angry. I have to work with him, and I swear, I could just strangle this guy. I mean, he is a good guy, I like him, but damn, I can really get into fight with him! Right now, I could just get into his face, but I probably ought to just calm down right now (which is not easy for me to do).

My questions are this:

How angry does an ISTj have to get to lose their reasoning ability? Or in another words, is it likely that I can reason with this guy even if he is really angry at me?

How necessary that an ISTj has to vent off? How long does it take for them to?


Thanks in advance

Jimmy

[Blaze]

i know about 3-4 of these types and generally they are slow to anger but once they are angry they hold a grudge. like for 30 years they'll hold a grudge. they never forget anything.

in a work situation like the one you are describing, one reason this guy might be giving forth like this is that somebody's coming down on him for some reason and he feels responsible.

[Suomea]

Live with an ISTj female. Interactions go like this....... she gets exceeding upset about something and starts to say something untrue. I say "You're wrong and explain why", she's in a fit of anger still, I say "You're wrong and explain why" this time probably in a louder tone. She yells some more. I say "You're wrong explain why" and stare her down. She stare's me down for a second, sees I mean business, and goes off after yelling the whole time. For the next hour or so she'll make snyde remarks so that everyone can hear them. I get into more arguments with her. Couple hours pass or a good night's sleep, and she's back to normal. No grudges on her part.

[Ezra]

Live with an ISTj female. Interactions go like this....... she gets exceeding upset about something and starts to say something untrue. I say "You're wrong and explain why", she's in a fit of anger still, I say "You're wrong and explain why" this time probably in a louder tone. She yells some more. I say "You're wrong explain why" and stare her down. She stare's me down for a second, sees I mean business, and goes off after yelling the whole time. For the next hour or so she'll make snyde remarks so that everyone can hear them. I get into more arguments with her. Couple hours pass or a good night's sleep, and she's back to normal. No grudges on her part.

That's Supervision yeah?

I'm trying analyse my relationship with this dude on my corridor. I think he's my Supervisor. He just tells me to shut up, or takes snide little digs at me; he scapegoats me daily. He thinks it's all in good humour, but it actually hurts me. I'm not the kind of person to say "you really hurt me with that remark", but I really feel like at this point that I have absolutely fuck all to say in return. I can't be aggressive with him ever.

[Jimbean]

@ Blaze:

Thank you.


As a side note, if this is all an example of a supervision relation, then that would further make a good case that I am an ENTp.

[machintruc]

How angry does an ISTj have to get to lose their reasoning ability? Or in another words, is it likely that I can reason with this guy even if he is really angry at me?

IJ types are usually very difficult to reason with when they are angry. When possible, it's better to avoid to reason with in this case, especially when he's a depressive variant (i.e enneagram types 4, 6, and 8). Then : if the LSI is E6 or E8 - very little is needed to make them lose their reasoning ability. If E1, a little more is required, as they are more "stable".

[Jimbean]

thanks


I have finally calmed down, and I am thinking that I should just let it go. I am sure he will do the same as well.

[Suomea]

Short term reasoning and long time reasoning are two different things. If you explain calmly to an ISTj what the right answer is (perhaps a little umf is needed), even if they vehamently disagree with you at the time, they may very well process the information and agree with you at a later date. This is what makes me like ISTjs quite a bit. Their loyalty to logic makes them see that sometimes pushing people around with force isn't good for the whole, the community, and even themselves..... and other times it's very necessary. At times I have a deep respect for ISTjs.

[PotatoSpirit]

We are not the most forgiving bunch, I really try to be tolerant (in the original meaning of the word=accepting of what is FUCKING WRONG (c: ), but it's hard and unnatural.

I'm not sure why this guy thinks you did it on purpose, but if it was me, you should try to make me change my mind on this, or at least spark some doubt. It would make the difference between me just being pissed off and me trying to get back at you (and I wouldn't be trying to just get even).

Venting is very necessary. Can't give you a time on this as it depends on too many things. It's very hard to talk to me until I've calmed down, but it is possible.

It seems you think you had a good reason, so I'm guessing if you apologized it didn't sound too convincing. I wouldn't really care if something else got your attention, I would still be expecting a good apology.

[Jimbean]

I did not apologize to him as of now, but I might do that once he calms down so that he realizes that I am not just acting against him. But I think I have a tendency to take things too personally.

[PotatoSpirit]

I did not apologize to him as of now, but I might do that once he calms down so that he realizes that I am not just acting against him.

Well hopefully he'll calm down without you having to apologize, realize without you having to explain, and offer you a cookie next time you see each other. :-P

[mr_maguoo]

i know about 3-4 of these types and generally they are slow to anger but once they are angry they hold a grudge. like for 30 years they'll hold a grudge. they never forget anything.

This isn't right, yes they are slow to anger, but once they explode they're completely relieved like a weight has been lifted off their shoulders. They don't hold grudges for 30 years, but it is true in that they rarely forget noteworthy misdeeds. Suomea's analysis is intellectually honest.

[shakealittle]

It sounds to me that your actions suggest to the ISTj that you are unreliable or not serious about your work. I don't think continuing to straighten out this issue will work as he feels you're either threatening his position/undermining his authority, the company etc and are out to get him. So trying to prove you're right....or more importantly, that he's wrong..... .... will work against you.

I suggest you try to prove though ACTIONS that you have the company's best interests at heart. Your words will mean nothing to the ISTj if the evidence contradicts them.

Hope that helps. Good luck, ISTjs can be pretty ruthless when they want something done. Don't take it too personally.

[FDG]

I must be lucky, because my father never did that to me (well, we wouldn't get along at all if he did).

[Jimbean]

Thanks to all!

Everything is fine now. You guys were pretty close in your predictions.

[discojoe]

Do you find that your anger level, between one and ten, never really sits in the middle of the scale, but instead bounces from the low end all the way to the high?

Now I want to make a distinction between anger and irritation. Anger for me is an intense feeling of rage that overwhelms my ability to think rationally, whereas irritation is a milder emotion, a kind of "fuck off" reaction to things that interrupt or impede my activities.

I let irritation out all the time, saying "What?!" to people bothering me, shouting at cars on the road, responding with "Blah blah blah go away," etc.

Anger, however, is something I usually repress. It just never seems justified to me. I feel like it's ridiculous, an absurd way of dealing with troubling situations. This leads to an instinctive shuffling aside of anger-driven impulses to an almost algorithmically insignificant position in my consciousness.

Eventually, however, something pushes me over the line. When the catalyst is impersonal, it is invariably due to some kind of physical malfunctioning of something vital to my productivity, like my computer or car.

It is far more common, however, for a person or persons to cause me to go over the edge. In high school, an obnoxious, fat SLE got in within inches of my face and verbally bullied me over the fact that he was right in a dispute over a play during a game of kickball. He was such an overbearing ass that I went into this berserk rage, punched him in the face and then proceeded to run circles around him, taunting him for being too fat to catch me. I poured all of my anger into making him suffer as much as possible, saying the meanest things I could think of, like making fun of him for not having a dad, that sort of thing. This sounds like I was just being mean, but I was irreconcilably angry, pumped so full of adrenaline that almost became an animal.

Other examples are taking the hat off an ILE kid who was bullying me and hitting him in the face with it as hard as I could. More recently, Joy was being a bitch, so I took her laptop and shattered it across my leg.

The point here isn't that my actions were so extreme, it's that in each of these circumstances I went from being totally calm--or at least composed--to suddenly, unexpectedly lashing out hysterically in pure infuriation, like going from moonless night to noonday sun in an instant, no graduality whatsoever.

Do you LSIs relate to this?

[jessica129]

Now I want to make a distinction between anger and irritation. Anger for me is an intense feeling of rage that overwhelms my ability to think rationally, whereas irritation is a milder emotion, a kind of "fuck off" reaction to things that interrupt or impede my activities.

I let irritation out all the time, saying "What?!" to people bothering me, shouting at cars on the road, responding with "Blah blah blah go away," etc.

Yeah, I'm a pretty irritable person. I guess it's because I have such low patience. My irritation comes out in body language and how i respond to people...breaking things helps sometimes. It's hard for me to get out of the loop of irritation. I usually just need a lot of time alone and peace and quiet. If this doesn't happen, it continues to build and build.

Anger, however, is something I usually repress. It just never seems justified to me. I feel like it's ridiculous, an absurd way of dealing with troubling situations. This leads to an instinctive shuffling aside of anger-driven impulses to an almost algorithmically insignificant position in my consciousness.

I feel the same way, however for me it's really hard to control sometimes. I'm realizing now that it usually takes a constant stream of irritation to lead me to the point of anger and when it does, damn..stand back. Rage is an ugly thing and I hate being pushed that far to the point you can't control yourself but i've gotten there before, more times than i'd care to admit.

The point here isn't that my actions were so extreme, it's that in each of these circumstances I went from being totally calm--or at least composed--to suddenly, unexpectedly lashing out hysterically in pure infuriation, like going from moonless night to noonday sun in an instant, no graduality whatsoever.

Do you LSIs relate to this?

Yeah, like I said, it's probably due to ignoring our feelings..repressing them until they just explode. I was trying to work on recognizing and labeling how I was feeling before I let my anger get out of control but it's very hard to pinpoint when or why something happened before I just snapped. I just react, I can't help it. I think that's the best I can explain or justify my anger, I'm highly reactive.

[Beautiful sky]

That's called RAGE (a very typical characteristic of LSE character) and I may say not very typical of introverts, as they are much more likely to hold things in..introverted, get it? Inside verted. Turning inwards.

[golden]

I was gonna say to to DJ and Jessica that I do this, too.

So can I be LSE now?

[Beautiful sky]

One hates being pushed that far and the other can't help it. One evaluates their feelings the other doesn't...E/I. One can stand more nagging, the other can't. One is Fe feeling valuer, the other isn't. I guess you can get back to being an Introver, Golden.

"I feel the same way, however for me it's really hard to control sometimes. I'm realizing now that it usually takes a constant stream of irritation to lead me to the point of anger and when it does, damn..stand back. Rage is an ugly thing and I hate being pushed that far to the point you can't control yourself but i've gotten there before, more times than i'd care to admit."

[silverchris9]

rofl. Yeah. Maybe a beta introvert thing, maybe a beta thing, maybe a person thing. I've never actually gone over the edge, but I've gotten pretty damn close. The high school example sounds like something I've considered doing before, especially the sentence about pouring your anger into making the other person feel as terrible as possible. I know objectively that's a bad thing, but I can't help but think that it would feel satisfying.

Also, the self-control bit. I don't think I've ever been out of control, at least not around other people.

EDIT: Also, I can see how I use Fe to blow off steam I suppose. Which always pisses off my Fi family members. Which in turn irritates me.

[EyeSeeCold]

Beta
blocked with
Emotions suppressed + conscious volitional sensing.

Sounds like LSIs need to get out more. Or lighten up.

[Singu]

So, you basically overreact to adversities. I don't think that's type-related. Maybe repressing your anger is the problem. Thinking that you can arbitrary control anger is not a good idea (likely because it doesn't fit the image of how you're "supposed to" act). When anger and rage is suppressed, it gains explosive strength. And by that nature more self-control is required to keep anger and rage in check.

[Beautiful sky]

Actually Jessica might very well be LSE too from this quote>....

"I know, i'm the same way in that I don't have any sort of respect for someone that does what I do but I don't know how to be any other way. I've tried to confront people the moment I'm irritated with something but I tend to not realize just how pissed off I am until I explode. It's either a 1 or a 10 on the anger scale, nothing in between. I can't afford to have my roommates hate me."

She's contradicting herself her by saying that she represses it when in a previous post she said otherwise..that would be Ti ignoring.

LOL I have two duals here.

[jessica129]

Yeah, i'm clearly LSE

Do you ever stop? Not everyone is LSE for christ sake. I like to go out and do things, I guess that makes me an extrovert!!!!!

[Beautiful sky]

No, I don't stop...that's called thinking and abstracting from reality (a REAL introverted trait, particularly one gifted to intuitive types). Going out and doing things is not an indication of E/I; what is, is what you're doing when you're doing these things, are you involved with the objective world, observing people, trees, scenes, of the outside surroundings, or are you in your thoughts so lost that you just missed people, certain things that happened, a car that drove by with your friend in it, etc?

What else is there for me to do? I am not very good at living in the objective world, so I must do as my mind does best, which is to think, ponder, analyze, think...just today, I was taking the bus to work and I got on the bus and walked right past my LSE friend. I was so lost in some analysis in my head that I couldn't see the object/people around me. That is Fi introversion, I don't expect you to be Fi, you don't sound like it.

[Pa3s]

That's called RAGE (a very typical characteristic of LSE character) and I may say not very typical of introverts, as they are much more likely to hold things in..introverted, get it? Inside verted. Turning inwards.

Sorry, but this starts to get annoying, even to people who aren't directly involved in this discussion. If you don't agree with their self-typing you can tell them about it or whatever but please don't come back to that everytime a thread about LSIs is opened.

[jessica129]

No, I don't stop...that's called thinking and abstracting from reality (a REAL introverted trait, particularly one gifted to intuitive types). Going out and doing things is not an indication of E/I; what is, is what you're doing when you're doing these things, are you involved with the objective world, observing people, trees, scenes, of the outside surroundings, or are you in your thoughts so lost that you just missed people, certain things that happened, a car that drove by with your friend in it, etc?

What else is there for me to do? I am not very good at living in the objective world, so I must do as my mind does best, which is to think, ponder, analyze, think...just today, I was taking the bus to work and I got on the bus and walked right past my LSE friend. I was so lost in some analysis in my head that I couldn't see the object/people around me. That is Fi introversion, I don't expect you to be Fi, you don't sound like it.

I'm just saying, it's really getting old when you keep pushing the LSE thing onto everyone and don't let up on it. It's like you're completely disrespecting their self typing and claiming you "know" them better than anyone else. You're black and white thinking is even worse than mine and that's saying a lot. Not every single thing someone does is type related and you're failing to see that. But trying to get through to you is like trying to reason with a brick wall.

[Beautiful sky]

I'm just saying, it's really getting old when you keep pushing the LSE thing onto everyone and don't let up on it. It's like you're completely disrespecting their self typing and claiming you "know" them better than anyone else. You're black and white thinking is even worse than mine and that's saying a lot. Not every single thing someone does is type related and you're failing to see that. But trying to get through to you is like trying to reason with a brick wall.

What I see, in action is what I point out. Socionics isn't about wanting what you are and choosing and taking a type for yourself. It;s very specific and it applies to your actions. If you act like an LSE and claim to be an LSI, all you're doing is spreading inaccurate information about what an LSI is (don't you think?). So, what's the point of Socionics, Jessica, if all you're doing is choosing your type instead of looking at your type objectively as it applies to a standard (the standards are Jung's work and classical Russian Socionics) then you're not helping socionics much; the action itself will contribute to mugging the clearly defined boundaries that separate each type from the other?

Sorry, but this starts to get annoying, even to people who aren't directly involved in this discussion. If you don't agree with their self-typing you can tell them about it or whatever but please don't come back to that everytime a thread about LSIs is opened.

Are you observing other people get annoyed (if yes, then you're a Te type- in case you didn't know what Te does, observes actions, objectifies things, other people's emotions become object).

[Slacker]

What I see, in action is what I point out. Socionics isn't about wanting what you are and choosing and taking a type for yourself. It;s very specific and it applies to your actions. If you act like an LSE and claim to be an LSI, all you're doing is spreading inaccurate information about what an LSI is (don't you think?). So, what's the point of Socionics, Jessica, if all you're doing is choosing your type instead of looking at your type objectively as it applies to a standard (the standards are Jung's work and classical Russian Socionics)?

I doubt the irony of you telling other people this is lost on too many people.

[discojoe]

Maritsa, stop posting in this topic if you're just going to hijack it with your off-topic rantings about LSEs.

Seriously, stop. It's annoying and makes me not want to talk to you.

[EyeSeeCold]

Stand down solider. She's just one person, calling a hi-jack is an overstatement. And it's not as if this forum is filled with LSIs to reply.

[discojoe]

Stand down solider. She's just one person, calling a hi-jack is an overstatement. And it's not as if this forum is filled with LSIs to reply.

Fuck off, newbie. You haven't been here long enough to know what the hell you're talking about.

[EyeSeeCold]

Don't subject me to your own difficulties in understanding. I don't need 5 years under my belt, unlike you.

Unnecessary hostility will get you nowhere.

[calenwen]

Do you find that your anger level, between one and ten, never really sits in the middle of the scale, but instead bounces from the low end all the way to the high?

Now I want to make a distinction between anger and irritation. Anger for me is an intense feeling of rage that overwhelms my ability to think rationally, whereas irritation is a milder emotion, a kind of "fuck off" reaction to things that interrupt or impede my activities.

...

The point here isn't that my actions were so extreme, it's that in each of these circumstances I went from being totally calm--or at least composed--to suddenly, unexpectedly lashing out hysterically in pure infuriation, like going from moonless night to noonday sun in an instant, no graduality whatsoever.

Do you LSIs relate to this?

Do you think that a distinction should also be made between anger and this almost violent fury?
Do you think the compulsion to act out violently is type-related? Or does everyone have the same capacity, and some people are just pushed over the edge easier?
I really don't know, although it seems like it would be more tied to personal issues.

[Computer Loser]

As for being irritated, yeah I feel irritated all the time. This usually happens when people are being constantly stupid; hearing the same old jokes, disrespecting elders/people above you, people disturbing me when I sleep, people that can't drive, people asking me "what's wrong" when I'm quiet, etc., I guess this is one reason why people think I'm so serious, because little things annoy me so much.

When I'm angry at someone/something, I'll probably hold that in for a long time and constantly think about it when I'm alone, letting it build up, like shaking a bottle of coke. And yeah, its pretty intense...There's a war field going on inside. But then when I encounter that person who I feel wronged me, I'll appear neutral but not angry (I might even be friendly). Eventually I'll end up forgiving the person (and I usually do pretty easily), but it'll take a long time for the anger inside to subside.

In terms of being pushed over the line/snapping, I try not to for the most part, but it does happen sometimes around family and friends that I'm extremely close with. I'll yell and condemn the person. Then later after the angers gone I'll feel guilty and end up apologizing lol.

[discojoe]

One Wing Nine
Average 1/9 combines the perfectionism and judgment of type one with the withdrawal-from-stress of nine. Of all the subtypes, 1/9 is the driest. The emotions are generally the least available on the surface. The usual overall feeling is strict, rational, quiet practicality. The nine-wing makes them less likely to voice their critical views, unlike the more outspoken 1/2. 1/9 would rather act oneishly, from principled judgment, than withdraw into uncaring, nineish apathy like the softer 9/1, but both tendencies are present.

Balanced-Transcendent States
Healthy 1/9 overcomes emotional repression, discovering an inner warmth. Although they still have a tendency to judge, they do not take their judgments quite so seriously, allowing for the possibility that they may be wrong. The nineish tendency to withdraw from stress comes under conscious control, allowing them to take a more active role in life, although there is still a gentle, quiet feeling. The compulsive workaholic turns into a responsible but fun-loving person who allows time for just letting go and relaxing.

In extreme integration, the joy of seven comes in strongly, adding a sense of enthusiastic involvement in life. This combines with threeish charisma and accomplishment to build a powerful sense of self-creation and self-esteem. 1/9 saints are gentle but persistent teachers. The selfless union of nine combines with the deep wisdom of one, opening a special kind of access to reality. Spiritually advanced 1/9s seem to be effortlessly in touch with the unfolding Work of the world.

Unbalanced-Unhealthy States
Unhealthy 1/9s often over-control their emotions, resulting in a kind of physical rigidity accompanied by an undercurrent of vaguely explosive energy. The repressed emotions, particularly anger, build up unnoticed and leak out in the form of tics and nervous gestures. One disintegrates to four, resulting in hostility, introspective withdrawal, and deep self-hatred, while nine disintegrates to six, bringing in suspicion, blaming, and passive-aggressive behavior. But the fearful blaming and suspicion are kept inside, where they become bottled up ever more tightly.

As the repressed emotionality becomes more and more tightly bound, behaviors begin to resemble robotic, automatic rituals. All of life becomes a lockstep repetition of extremely stylized routines. In deep imbalance, 1/9 can become extremely anxious about getting everything precisely right. Every tiny move is subject to intense, painful scrutiny, and past behaviors are examined in agonizing detail. (Did I leave the oven on? Did I lock the door? Did I run over somebody on the way to work?) Eventually, psychotic 1/9 might become completely paralyzed into inaction, stabbed through the heart by the endless need to repeat behaviors until they feel precisely correct.

The Calling
Some 1/9s find work that allows them to express their talents for quietly performing precisely detailed tasks. Accountants, bank executives, tax advisers, computer programmers, technical analysts. Others feel best when they can further a cause, maybe even in a public position. Politicians, economists, political analysts, linguists, or clergy. 1/9s are also found among teachers (usually of dry subjects, like math, history, or finance), administrators, account executives, and in the media as political reporters and columnists. There are 1/9 inventors, psychologists, and research scientists. Of course, 1/9s can also be found doing many other kinds of work.

[Singu]

You're a 1? Well... whatever. I think that far too often people bring up "type-relatedness" as a way to rationalize, justify and excuse their behavior. Or, it's used to ignore how or why did such behavior occur in the first place.

[Creepy-Snaps]

Don't subject me to your own difficulties in understanding. I don't need 5 years under my belt, unlike you.

Unnecessary hostility will get you nowhere.

You'd rather have Maritsa hijack the thread? The hostility was necessary.

It is far more common, however, for a person or persons to cause me to go over the edge. In high school, an obnoxious, fat SLE got in within inches of my face and verbally bullied me over the fact that he was right in a dispute over a play during a game of kickball. He was such an overbearing ass that I went into this berserk rage, punched him in the face and then proceeded to run circles around him, taunting him for being too fat to catch me. I poured all of my anger into making him suffer as much as possible, saying the meanest things I could think of, like making fun of him for not having a dad, that sort of thing. This sounds like I was just being mean, but I was irreconcilably angry, pumped so full of adrenaline that almost became an animal.

I relate to this... albeit I'm not LSI. Maybe it's Se and Ti... I'll trade a couple stories with ya though.

One time in gym class, in the auditorium, we had several minutes at the end of class when the teacher was gone. I was dribbling basketball, and ran by the edge of the stage, where this other guy was sitting. He was swinging his legs over the edge and kicked me. I felt it was on purpose. I went into Rage mode. I dropped the basketball, turned toward him, quickly grabbed his head and slammed it on the stage floor. He gets pissed. Punching match begins to ensue. Teacher walks back in. Detention.

Had a fight with a friend recently, while we were playing backyard football. Basically he was being a baby over a play, thought I tackled him unfairly. He gets pissy and tackles me once dirty, whipping me to the ground after I was already going down from being tackled by another person. I'm pissed. He did it just once though. I was mature and let it slide once. Another play, I get the ball again, and he does it again, whipping me hard to the ground (we're playing on dirt/rocks without any pads), hurting my knees again, and I just snap. Rage mode. I rush at him and tackle him to the ground, and kick him with my cleats on. He tries to swing back but can't hit me, he was too big and slow. Friends break it up. Apologize afterwards, but yeah.

Now I know in both examples, and in your example with kickball, sports were a factor. Adrenaline is pumping already. But in general, I do jump into rage mode rather quickly, lowering my IQ and doing stupid things lol. But... I just don't take other people's crap. Pisses me off, and it's my natural inclination to stand up for myself and fight back, rather than just let things go by.

You're a 1? Well... whatever. I think that far too often people bring up "type-relatedness" as a way to rationalize, justify and excuse their behavior. Or, it's used to ignore how or why did such behavior occur in the first place.

Wtf? Because trying to understand your behavior on a personality forum is a bad thing? I don't see where anybody is trying to excuse their behavior. My interpretation was discojoe made this thread to understand himself (and LSIs) better for the sake of improvement.

[Beautiful sky]

If you want to understand an LSI, I suggest you talk to squark.

I'm not an Se valuer, there is no need for hostility. All opinions exist and should exist in the universe...that allows for abstract thinking.

EyeSeeCold is an Se valuer, but he has Fi activation...so, he's much more willing to support the no hostility campaign then you are. Fortunately for me.