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Thread: Denying someone use of the restroom

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    Default Denying someone use of the restroom

    At the LIIbrary where I work, there are two restrooms. One near the entrance and one in the childrens area. The supervisor decided to make the one in the childrens area locked and for use only by children. The rationale is that children can't hold it in as well and are more likely to have bathroom emergencies so its good to have a restroom very close by.

    I had an adult ask me if he could get the key for the children's restroom. He said it was an emergency that he felt like he absolutely couldn't hold it in any longer. So I did what I thought was the common sense thing to do. I let him use it. Sometimes exceptions have to be made.

    Apparently the supervisor did not agree with my logic and she gave me a several minute long lecture on how adults should never be allowed to use the children's restroom and how adults should not have bathroom emergencies.

    So I brought up the point about what if an adult suddenly felt like he or she had to throw up? I think that would qualify for a true emergency. But the supervisor just acted like I was completely stupid for even bringning that up. She just said, in all ten of my years here, I have never had that happen. Sometimes even if a possibility is improbable doesn't mean it isn't worth considering.

    Another time I let a physically challenged old woman use the children's restroom. She walked slowly with a cane and it was obvious she wasn't very physically mobile. I work at a fairly large library and I wasn't going to make her walk all the way to adult restroom. Luckily the supervisor didn't see that instance.


    I bring this up because I'm interested in this from a socionics perspective. I think the bolded part is particularly indicative of alpha NT thinking.
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    I'd say the bolded part speaks more toward an way of thinking. I certainly identify with doing that.
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    I think your supervisor might be simply too stupid to type. Who invents such restrictions for no real reason?

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    she sounds like a rather typical ISFj.

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    Yes, this is an Ne thing.

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    That would be an Ne thing; also, Ne role thing as well; it's less likely to be an Alpha and a Beta thing though and much more a Gamma and Delta thing instead.

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    No, Gammas don't generally display Ne that strong. Maybe a Gamma Ni type but not an SF. Stop trying to push her into a box where she doesn't fit.

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    Yes, they consider possibilities too...stop making Ne ego types seem like they are the only ones who consider possibilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Yes, they consider possibilities too...stop making Ne ego types seem like they are the only ones who consider possibilities.
    I don't think Ne types are the only ones who consider possibilites, but this conversation seems obviosuly to be between someone who is strong in and values Ne and someone who is weak in and does not value Ne. With WL being the strong/valuing Ne person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    I don't think Ne types are the only ones who consider possibilites, but this conversation seems obviosuly to be between someone who is strong in and values Ne and someone who is weak in and does not value Ne. With WL being the strong/valuing Ne person.
    She broke a rule first set up by the supervisor, that the restroom is meant for kids. She devalues Ti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    She broke a rule first set up by the supervisor, that the restroom is meant for kids. She devalues Ti.
    She devalues Se+Ti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    She devalues Se+Ti.
    Is that a fact? Then I guess you haven't considered all the possibilities. That's an example of Ne type not considering possibilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Is that a fact? Then I guess you haven't considered all the possibilities. That's an example of Ne type not considering possibilities.
    Oh FFS you're just baiting at this point. Don't be ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    I don't think Ne types are the only ones who consider possibilites, but this conversation seems obviosuly to be between someone who is strong in and values Ne and someone who is weak in and does not value Ne. With WL being the strong/valuing Ne person.
    See, that's what I don't get. How it is "obviously" about Ne, apart form WL's interpretation? Explaining "how adults should not have bathroom emergencies", indeed. I could just as well make a case for Se type being least likely to ignore the immediate reality (of there having been an adult with an emergency) and Ti+Ne being most likely to live in an idealized world with clearly defined rules. It would make about as much sense as this association, for the real.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    See, that's what I don't get. How it is "obviously" about Ne, apart form WL's interpretation? Explaining "how adults should not have bathroom emergencies", indeed. I could just as well make a case for Se type being least likely to ignore the immediate reality (of there having been an adult with an emergency) and Ti+Ne being most likely to live in an idealized world with clearly defined rules. It would make about as much sense as this association, for the real.
    In this conversation, WL was offering up possibilities that questioned the hard-and-fast rule. In a different conversation about use of the bathroom, I might see it differently, but I'm just talking about this specific conversation. It isn't about whether someone should be able to use the bathroom but about this conversation about a hard-and-fast rule and offering up possibilties where the rule might not make sense.

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    Also, this sounds like the other person might be Se + Ti, and it's hard to get people with those values to change their minds about rules they've set up. They put a lot of thought behind their rules. You have to give a really really strong argument, and I can see an LSI not buying that an adult wouldn't be able to manage to get to another part of the same building to use the bathroom, and then getting annoyed by what seem like silly, unlikely scenarios.

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    Unless there's a damn good reason why one restroom should be children only AND require asking for a key to use I would probably let anyone who asked use it whenever possible. Dumb rules are meant to be broken.
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    As I read it, it wasn't a hypothetical possibility, but a very real person claiming emergency who used the bathroom, for allowing which WL was told off. So was it about it not being an emergency (because "adults shouldn't have emergencies"), or about not making an exception even if there's an emergency? Both sound pretty dumb to me, and about as likely to be ignoring reality as not considering possibilities. More lack-of-common-sense-related than socionics related, probably.

    Also, unless there is a different good reason for not letting adults use children restroom, I'd say having to ask for key when a child has a bathroom emergency contradicts the purpose of the regulation.

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    The key word is "claiming". You could argue that if he had time to discuss wanting to go to the bathroom there, he had time to run to the other side of hte library.

    I worked in a library during high school and college that had an identical rule, key and all. I don't think it's uncommon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    The key word is "claiming". You could argue that if he had time to discuss wanting to go to the bathroom there, he had time to run to the other side of hte library.
    Unless the other restroom was occupied, possibly for an extended period of time. Or there was a queue of people who weren't quite as desperate.

    The claim is unverifiable either way.

    I worked in a library during high school and college that had an identical rule, key and all. I don't think it's uncommon.
    Do you happen to know the rationale behind it?

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    I just wanted to point out that adults very well can have restroom emergencies. All sorts of medical reasons why, and they should not have to undergo the humiliation of explaining what their situation is. If grown-up has to ask in the first place for special consideration, it's cruelly bureaucratic to either deny them restroom access or demand they spell out the reasons why.

    Is there any written policy on this in your workplace?

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    The LSI librarian I worked with who made that rule had a few reasons. One was simply that it was for children and adults had one available to them. One was that adults can be expected to "hold it" until they get elsewhere, but children can't, and if it's occupied by an adult then a child who is not able to "hold it" can't use the bathroom during that time. I also I think she was worried that creepy adults would try to use the children's room for some unspecified nefarious reason. And she could have had other reasons I was unaware of.

    But she had really thought it through and it would take something bigger than an adult claiming to not be able to do something adults can generally do to sway her. And that's how LSIs I've known are. They put a lot of thought into things, and they can be swayed with what they consider to be a really strong argument, but that particular argument wouldn't have swayed the librarian I worked with. I can imagine her saying, "If he has time to ask for the key, he has time to get to the adult bathroom."

    This sounds to me to be a situation between someone who values Ne and a LSI environment, which is what I've found libraries to be.

    Another rule I disagreed with was that if a storytime was for 2 year olds, then only children who were between 24 months to they day and one day short of their third birthday could be in it, inlcuding not allowing sibilings - even newborn baby siblings the parents would have to bring in order for the other child to go to storytime. Parents had to be there to supervise, so if the parent had a baby as well as an older child, the parent didn't have many options. She was hard core about that rule too. Her reason for that was that she felt siblings of various ages took attention away from the story and ruined it for the kids of whatever age it was intended for. But the consequence was that a lot of people couldn't attend, because a lot of families have kids of various ages, and can't just leave siblings at home during storytime.

    This does not sound like an odd or far fetched conversation to happen in a library where someone with strong and valued Ne works.

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    Yea, adults shouldn't have bathroom emergencies but the reality is that they do. There's no reason you can't open the door for someone. I mean if everyone starting asking then it would be a problem. Your supervisor is being kind of ridiculous and stubborn. It's not really lecture worthy. If anything it's just don't do that again worthy.
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    If you recall there is a very good reason children should have their own bathroom in public libraries...
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=31500
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    I bet your supervisor would love to put this sign up:


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    lol, i wonder why "restroom" is in quotation marks.

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    lol a training sup where I work uses quotation marks superfluously like that too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    Yea, adults shouldn't have bathroom emergencies but the reality is that they do.

    ^that. plenty of adults have medical conditions. also, how does forcing them to hunt down the key help for an emergency?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    I just wanted to point out that adults very well can have restroom emergencies. All sorts of medical reasons why, and they should not have to undergo the humiliation of explaining what their situation is. If grown-up has to ask in the first place for special consideration, it's cruelly bureaucratic to either deny them restroom access or demand they spell out the reasons why.

    Is there any written policy on this in your workplace?
    ^that

    sorry... didn't see this. you deserve the "^that" because you were first.

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    Lol what a dumb policy, you should have asked her in her 10 years if it ever happened that an adult was using the children's restroom and the kid ended up not being able to hold it.

    I would have done that, I had a crappy supervisor at the Target Food Court I worked a summer job at like 5 or so years ago. She was all bitchy one day and yelled at me "GRAB A CHEESE".... and I said "Cheese?" and she said "A CHEESE PIZZA, WHAT ELSE IS THERE WITH CHEESE ON IT!!!!!!", and I said "Nachos" lol.... and she got all pissed off at me, but she completely deserved it for treating her employees like shit.

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    ...and how adults should not have bathroom emergencies.
    That's pretty dumb. Why shouldn't they? I can't predict my digestive systems every move

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    Yea, adults shouldn't have bathroom emergencies but the reality is that they do. There's no reason you can't open the door for someone. I mean if everyone starting asking then it would be a problem. Your supervisor is being kind of ridiculous and stubborn. It's not really lecture worthy. If anything it's just don't do that again worthy.
    True. The supervisor, like others have noted, is a bit ridiculous.

    But just going along with it... if you need the job. She's the boss. Don't try to make some moral stand of helping people, if it'll get you fired. Don't be a hero.

    So one older woman has to walk more, and one adult might risk being sick in front of others... horrible, yes. But there is a point, that they can deal with these things on their own. And they know for next time, to use the other bathroom. Is it worth risking your job?

    Sure it may suck enforcing rules you disagree with personally. Maybe make exceptions if you won't get caught, or talk to your supervisor's boss about the rule, if you really feel strongly... but this could get you fired as well. Just go along with it, I say...

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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    At the LIIbrary where I work, there are two restrooms. One near the entrance and one in the childrens area. The supervisor decided to make the one in the childrens area locked and for use only by children. The rationale is that children can't hold it in as well and are more likely to have bathroom emergencies so its good to have a restroom very close by.

    I had an adult ask me if he could get the key for the children's restroom. He said it was an emergency that he felt like he absolutely couldn't hold it in any longer. So I did what I thought was the common sense thing to do. I let him use it. Sometimes exceptions have to be made.

    Apparently the supervisor did not agree with my logic and she gave me a several minute long lecture on how adults should never be allowed to use the children's restroom and how adults should not have bathroom emergencies.

    So I brought up the point about what if an adult suddenly felt like he or she had to throw up? I think that would qualify for a true emergency. But the supervisor just acted like I was completely stupid for even bringning that up. She just said, in all ten of my years here, I have never had that happen. Sometimes even if a possibility is improbable doesn't mean it isn't worth considering.

    Another time I let a physically challenged old woman use the children's restroom. She walked slowly with a cane and it was obvious she wasn't very physically mobile. I work at a fairly large library and I wasn't going to make her walk all the way to adult restroom. Luckily the supervisor didn't see that instance.


    I bring this up because I'm interested in this from a socionics perspective. I think the bolded part is particularly indicative of alpha NT thinking.
    I'd say it's Ne-thinking in general, delta NFs included as well. I totally agree with the bold and feel that way often as well. I would also have let these people use the childrens' bathroom.

    I mean, adult bathroom emergencies aren't just about vomiting. Someone can have an incontinence problem (and they dont have to be elderly -- look @ Paula Abdul). It could be someone with a heart problem on a diuretic and if they have to trek too far, they get out of breath or have chest pain, and they need to pee a LOT. Someone can feel a bad urge for diarrhea and if they have to walk across the vast library they might poop their pants. Whatever. If there isn't a line of kids waiting for the kids bathroom, I dont see a problem with lending the key out to a desperate adult.
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    You've done the right thing. Screw your supervisor and continue doing what you think is right. Don't compromise yourself and your principles.

    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Unless there's a damn good reason why one restroom should be children only AND require asking for a key to use I would probably let anyone who asked use it whenever possible. Dumb rules are meant to be broken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    she sounds like a rather typical ISFj.
    Why ISFj? I was thinking LSI or SLE for her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    She devalues Se+Ti.
    Yes. I think the sort of rigidity with rules is much more an LSI thing than LII. Both appreciate systems but LII more readily sees possible reasons for why it might not work and ways to improve upon it whereas LSI once the system is set in place, that's kind of it and will take something more major to prompt the LSI to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    Also, this sounds like the other person might be Se + Ti, and it's hard to get people with those values to change their minds about rules they've set up. They put a lot of thought behind their rules. You have to give a really really strong argument, and I can see an LSI not buying that an adult wouldn't be able to manage to get to another part of the same building to use the bathroom, and then getting annoyed by what seem like silly, unlikely scenarios.
    Yes. It's interesting how comparative types- in this case LSI and LII can have very different approaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Unless there's a damn good reason why one restroom should be children only AND require asking for a key to use I would probably let anyone who asked use it whenever possible. Dumb rules are meant to be broken.


    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    I just wanted to point out that adults very well can have restroom emergencies. All sorts of medical reasons why, and they should not have to undergo the humiliation of explaining what their situation is. If grown-up has to ask in the first place for special consideration, it's cruelly bureaucratic to either deny them restroom access or demand they spell out the reasons why.

    Is there any written policy on this in your workplace?
    No written policy that I'm aware of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    Another rule I disagreed with was that if a storytime was for 2 year olds, then only children who were between 24 months to they day and one day short of their third birthday could be in it, inlcuding not allowing sibilings - even newborn baby siblings the parents would have to bring in order for the other child to go to storytime. Parents had to be there to supervise, so if the parent had a baby as well as an older child, the parent didn't have many options. She was hard core about that rule too. Her reason for that was that she felt siblings of various ages took attention away from the story and ruined it for the kids of whatever age it was intended for. But the consequence was that a lot of people couldn't attend, because a lot of families have kids of various ages, and can't just leave siblings at home during storytime.

    This does not sound like an odd or far fetched conversation to happen in a library where someone with strong and valued Ne works.
    My library is more flexible in regards to who can attend storytimes. If a 12 kid wanted to attend we wouldn't stop it.

    My LSIbrary has alot of other overly rigid and bureaucratic policies though. In the childrens area, only children are allowed to use the computers there. Which is difficult for adults who also need to use the computer, say for job searching or coursework but have kids too young to be left alone in the childrens area just so that they use the proper computer in the adult area.

    There is an overly rigid division of tasks. Librarians aren't supposed to collect fines or register patrons for library cards. The support staff is supposed to do that. Conversely support staff aren't supposed to assist in reference questions even the real basic ones or those in subjects they happen to be an expert in. Having an overly rigid job description impedes efficiency (Am I starting to talk like a Te?). Ideally, certain tasks should be best left to certain people but if it gets really busy and you know how to do tasks that aren't in your job description, shouldn't you at least be allowed now and then?

    I could keep going on and on with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    I would have done that, I had a crappy supervisor at the Target Food Court I worked a summer job at like 5 or so years ago. She was all bitchy one day and yelled at me "GRAB A CHEESE".... and I said "Cheese?" and she said "A CHEESE PIZZA, WHAT ELSE IS THERE WITH CHEESE ON IT!!!!!!", and I said "Nachos" lol.... and she got all pissed off at me, but she completely deserved it for treating her employees like shit.
    Oh, I hate it when people are imprecise with their word usage and expect you to read their mind. Just recently I had a customer who walked up to me and said "Jobs." Did he mean that he wanted books on job searching? Did he want to get on a computer to search for jobs? Or did he want to arrange an appointment to speak with a job search counselor who comes to the library a couple times a month? Well it turned out it was the latter of the three options but it took me a couple minutes to realize that after ruling out the first two. The customer was very impatient and thought me stupid for not being able to read his mind right away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peteronfireee View Post
    That's pretty dumb. Why shouldn't they? I can't predict my digestive systems every move
    Well why not? Do you have weak ?
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    She's the boss. Don't try to make some moral stand of helping people, if it'll get you fired. Don't be a hero.
    I disagree completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    Is it worth risking your job?
    Good point. But essentially unimportant. I've been in very similar situations (well not job-related per se, but risking other things in my life... maybe even life itself...) and I've never listened. I've always done what I personally thought and felt was right, no matter what anybody else said or wanted me to do. Thinking in terms of whether it is worth risking something I benefit from when making decisions, and letting that be a top priority, to me is a cowardly, selfish, spineless way to live your life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    Sure it may suck enforcing rules you disagree with personally. Maybe make exceptions if you won't get caught, or talk to your supervisor's boss about the rule, if you really feel strongly... but this could get you fired as well. Just go along with it, I say...
    While I get your point, and agree that it is more "rational" to act this way, and WL is probably better off taking your advice for the sake of her own security, I would actually suggest the opposite. Speak your mind, don't be afraid to disagree, do what's right, work hard... and don't worry. People will respect you for being true to yourself and having a stable personality.

    If I was in WL's shoes, I wouldn't give a shit about the possibility of getting fired, and even if it came to that, I would not regret anything I've done. I'll find another job, or get the same one back. (The only times I do regret my actions is when I've seriously hurt a person I care about, and realize I could (and should) have avoided it. But that's a totally different issue.)
    Last edited by Park; 02-07-2011 at 04:59 AM.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    lol, i wonder why "restroom" is in quotation marks.
    They haven't heard of bold letters and colored markers, obviously.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

  38. #38
    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
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    This is definitely an Si/Se conflict. Makes sense for the other person to be Beta ST.

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    Power tripping stupidity. What cruelty for kids that can't hold their bowels to have to ask for a key in emergencies. "Dumb rules are meant to be broken. "
    I think in this case Fi polr in showing in Mountain Dews post and Fe polr in Parksters. Sounds like a rational type who made the rules either way. As an IEI, working in these types environments tends to drive me mad and eventually break these rules if I don't outright voice it. And its not always stupid people but people power tripping against each other. And yes sometimes (most) you'll get fired but hopefully you can start a union or some shit as your true calling or not work at a soul crushing company.

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    I really doubt that someone who does not focus on Ne will modify a system that has worked for her for the last 10 years just because of a remote probability that something might or might not happen. This isn't really a life and death thing so it might be best to just go with whatever she wants you to do. No one hasn't been harmed yet by her system (I think). Also, you can think of other possibilities that are in favor of her way of doing things too.

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