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Thread: Self-type, forum interaction, power of suggestion

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    Default Self-type, forum interaction, power of suggestion

    First off, this thread is not really a type-me thread. If you're aware of me, you may know that I have seen over time that EIE seems to fit me better overall than IEI (IEs, intertype relations). But I'm not totally attached to being one type or the other. It was the question I came into this forum with--which Beta NF am I? I can live with it being somewhat unresolved indefinitely, and you are welcome to see me as IEI or EIE, or even some other, random type if that gives you a frisson of warped joy. I only ask that if typing me interests you much, to please not talk to me about that topic as if I'm a moron--something almost no one here has actually done (thank you).

    Anyway, here's the thing. It creeps me out a little to note that some people on here will possibly see me differently if I am typed one way or the other. It creeps me out even more to consider that I might alter my own behavior depending on which type I think I more likely am.

    Who here has experienced this (and is willing to admit it)?

    Aside from always being led back to a desire to somehow know or imagine how IEs could reflect real, potentially measurable cognitive differences among people, Socionics appeals to me personally at this time because I really want to understand myself better. More important, I want to be myself better.

    I'm asking myself, therefore: Does Socionics help with self-knowledge, or does it hinder it? I'm sure it can do either/both, but in what ways?

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    good thread. thanks. thats all i want to say for now.

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    This is an interesting idea and I also thought about the possibility of being influenced by your self-typing or the type proposals of others. I think there is a influence, since you always know how you 'ought to be' as a representative of your type. This gives you something to 'classify' yourself in some way, which is useful to evaluate your own, unique personality compared to others.

    This is the good thing about it and probably the main reason why we all learn about Socionics. The bad things is that you might point out traits which are not seen as typical or might even contradict the given ones. This is also strengthened by others who refer to that and make you question your type. At this point, you might consider to 'correct' your behavior according to the type you think you are. I certainly thought about this, too. This can be quite contraproductive if you typed yourself wrong, but isn't such a good thing in general because we all know the type descriptions aren't based on real humans, but rather the pure types.

    However, the influence that might make you change your behavior is only superficial in my opinion. Even if you take up the challenge and mask your actual personality it usually won't last long. It also depends on your discipline and your skills as an actor. But if you imagine times of high stress or otherwise difficult situations, your true nature will show up. Or your masquerade will simply vanish over time until nothing is left.

    I guess you have to accept the fact that others treat you different if your type changes. In this forum, the self-typing makes up a lot of information. It is actually the most that many people know from you since a lot of interaction is needed to gather as much facts as in those typing descriptions. These types are still labels, it's just important not to forget that people are unique and types are just rough guidelines.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Thanks for your replies. I'm letting yours live for a while in my thoughts before saying anything further, MD1.

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    There is a very noticible difference in interactions where people are responding to me AS me, and when they're responding to me as their IDEA of me. Real life and online both.

    When I am acting true to self, and people see that and respond to me, it is relaxing, and genuine. There is a constant tension that occurs when someone does not see me, but thinks that they do. No matter what I say or do, I manage to live up to their expectations of me, because they will make it fit. I feel uneasy and tense, and that nervousness causes me to also be less genuine with them in my interactions.

    A surprising and unexpected feeling is when someone appreciates how I am without any pretense or effort, just my natural self. It makes me happy when I discover that. A person can get along fine with almost anyone, even conflicting types, but it's those with whom you drop your guard that best demonstrate intertype relationships.

    I choose anonymity here, and avoid giving out too much personal information because it provides a much less clouded view of who I am. You would think that more information would be better, but it isn't always. Sometimes more information just creates more confusion. Biases once created are hard for many people to let go. And that can include type biases. Some people will see a person a certain way if that's how they have typed at some point, and shaking that is difficult.

    I also understand the reasoning behind anyone who creates a new account for a fresh perspective, and don't know why anyone would have a problem with it (ie the words/cyclops thing.) People treat that as though it's some kind of dishonesty or something, and yeah it's deceptive, but it might be MORE honest in some cases. Honest as in genuine/authentic, which is what matters imo.

    But, in the end, what is most telling is when you're relaxed and unguarded, and others are as well, what comes out in your communication. If you're TRYING to be a certain type you might fool some people, but you won't be understood or known. And if other people are forming opinions and responding to you BASED on what type they think you are, they're shortchanging themselves out of understanding as well. Authenticity is far easier and reduces rather than causes tension and stress. If you're judged based on that, or your type, that is the judger's problem and there isn't anything you can do about that.

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    That was very well written squark.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    I think that you can only do this... if you don't know who you are in the first place, if you're missing a sense of identity. You are looking into others for a sense or a feeling of identity. You'll need to cultivate your own identity instead. Don't let yourself fit into the theory... you'll need to let the theory fit you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    I think that you can only do this... if you don't know who you are in the first place, if you're missing a sense of identity. You are looking into others for a sense or a feeling of identity. You'll need to cultivate your own identity instead. Don't let yourself fit into the theory... you'll need to let the theory fit you.
    Would you happen to have any advice on how to do this? I'm rather identity deprived myself.
    4w5 sp/sx

    Please, direct all questioning of my self-typing to this thread. Thank you.

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    Golden, you look like the forum member Red Baron (IEI).

    EDIT: It's not Golden who reminds me of Red Baron, it is PianoSinger

    Piano Singer, PianoSinger
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    Socionics: ENTp
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    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
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    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    I'm asking myself, therefore: Does Socionics help with self-knowledge, or does it hinder it? I'm sure it can do either/both, but in what ways?
    Ignorance is bliss. Does socionics help? Of course! Is it always comparatively happier knowing how you react to things and understanding how your mind works? Nope. Sometimes it is more fun to just let loose, not analyze everything. (Sometimes alcohol helps with that )

    Your type? Fe-leading. Not sure how to say this politely... I know you've been offended at me lately... but. Fe-leading types can sometimes get 'carried away' being mad at somebody. They can be mad for hours, days, over something I perceive to be relatively small. (Even something said in passing, a 30 second conversation, can bother them for hours, if it hurts them personally or someone they love) This is unrelenting Fe, the external manifestation of their emotion.

    As a 2nd example, even this thread, you talk about how socionics affects people, that falls under one sub-theme of Fe, "describing influences on living objects".

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Aside from always being led back to a desire to somehow know or imagine how IEs could reflect real, potentially measurable cognitive differences among people
    3rd example, Fe also has "strong emotions and impressions". You can understand the differences between people by your impressions of them.

    4th example, Fe has "intonationally conveying emotional states". Saying you want to be better yourself, using words like "willing to admit" (describing bravery) or "creeps", you seem to effectively and masterfully describe emotional states, without even noticing it or thinking about it.

    I could try to think of other examples if you want, even examples from other posts if you'd like, but I'm pretty confident to say you're Fe leading.

    So I'd say ENFj>ESFj failing. And pretty sure about Ni>Si too, you do seem to favor Ni a bit:
    1) describing how socionics can 'change' people's perceptions of themselves over time
    2) awareness of "internal processes"

    but maybe checking out ESFj is worth a look. And if you're confident that you're Beta over Alpha, then ENFj.

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    Oops... just realized I broke my promise to myself to not post for a week. Trying to take a break here to cool off. =\

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    Golden, I think you're honestly driving yourself crazy talking about yourself in public like this. I think it's making you insecure when you don't want to be. My friendly advice would just be to cool it. I think it's only natural to be shy about what you share with people. I've done that before in the past, and I only regretted it.

    Anyways, you're only going to understand yourself through real action, not analyzing. You're only gonna understand yourself to how you relate to the entire whole, not in little pieces. As for being yourself- that's a loaded phrase. What does that even mean. I'll give you a little tip. It's not about being yourself or finding yourself. It's about creating yourself; simply being whatever you *choose* to be. There really is no inward yucky stuff you have to sort out.

    Pick an interesting internal landscape and go with it, go with simply what feels good to you. But it's like you're asking other people's opinions about who YOU are. Quite frankly that's just not our job. Personally I see dolphin as a 'water mage' and vero as a 'lightning mage' cause it fits, but if they want to be something different then they can be. All subjective identities and feelings are truthful, not one of them is bogus. But it's also too open-ended. It's more interesting in my opinion to just pick one and play with it.

    Okay I got one for you: you're a female holy warrior, you remind me of like a white female paladin of sorts. =p

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    It creeps me out even more to consider that I might alter my own behavior depending on which type I think I more likely am.
    Socionics can drive you insane if you let it. Trust me. Take a little break. I'm not saying you have to get a real world life or anything (though that might help) cuz it's hypocritical of me. Just take a break, and get a more 'clear-head.' Try meditating too. Your thoughts are really wild and all over the place. Meditation can help you with that, and help you take more natural risks to better your own life. You are trapped within your own thoughts. Happens to the best of us.

    Chill out, cool down, meditate, etc. http://www.amazon.com/Opening-Medita...6753086&sr=8-1

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    Interesting responses. Um, I think what I spoke of in the original post is something I see as subtle. I don't remember coming to this forum to ask people who I am in any deep way. Perhaps I am guilty of that without fully realizing it. But since I don't actually believe anyone can tell me much about myself and that only I can do that ... not sure what to say.

    This thread was meant not to be so much about ME but just about the nature of this forum and socionics and self-typing.

    I also don't see my thoughts as all over the place, but meditation probably would be good for me all the same. Good for most people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    It creeps me out even more to consider that I might alter my own behavior depending on which type I think I more likely am.
    I'd say it's something most people here do to some extent, and those who don't more likely "got over it" than never did in the first place.

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    I'm asking myself, therefore: Does Socionics help with self-knowledge, or does it hinder it? I'm sure it can do either/both, but in what ways?
    The worst case scenario is that it wastes a bit of your time. The mind is resilient enough not to let the new information alter it's own constitution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    It creeps me out even more to consider that I might alter my own behavior depending on which type I think I more likely am.
    I think it's a common thing to do. People who are into personality typology are often in the search for themselves also, so they have a weak sense of identity. I have a weak identity, but I think socionics has helped a lot, except for in the beginning when I got too carried away and got overly focused on myself and my type. But it wears off after some time.

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    I think if you do find yourself altering your behavior to meet type descriptions (which I agree seems like it could be common) it might be time to step away from the forum for a bit. Not specifically aimed at you but in general.

    Soconics is interesting, but I wouldn't make life choices based on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    This is an interesting idea and I also thought about the possibility of being influenced by your self-typing or the type proposals of others. I think there is a influence, since you always know how you 'ought to be' as a representative of your type. This gives you something to 'classify' yourself in some way, which is useful to evaluate your own, unique personality compared to others.

    This is the good thing about it and probably the main reason why we all learn about Socionics. The bad things is that you might point out traits which are not seen as typical or might even contradict the given ones. This is also strengthened by others who refer to that and make you question your type. At this point, you might consider to 'correct' your behavior according to the type you think you are. I certainly thought about this, too. This can be quite contraproductive if you typed yourself wrong, but isn't such a good thing in general because we all know the type descriptions aren't based on real humans, but rather the pure types.

    However, the influence that might make you change your behavior is only superficial in my opinion. Even if you take up the challenge and mask your actual personality it usually won't last long. It also depends on your discipline and your skills as an actor. But if you imagine times of high stress or otherwise difficult situations, your true nature will show up. Or your masquerade will simply vanish over time until nothing is left.

    I guess you have to accept the fact that others treat you different if your type changes. In this forum, the self-typing makes up a lot of information. It is actually the most that many people know from you since a lot of interaction is needed to gather as much facts as in those typing descriptions. These types are still labels, it's just important not to forget that people are unique and types are just rough guidelines.
    I guess I'll try to respond to people.

    I tend to agree with all you say here, and the tone of it, Megadoomer. I don't think in my initial post I was trying to describe something really obvious done in an overt manner, and you appear to have picked up on that.

    The idea of communicating about type here, with our types (correct or not) known to one another ... to me it just throws an odd layer onto our consciousness of our interactions.

    Regarding masking, part of what I'm observing at this point in my life is what is and is not part of the mask. What is and is not authentic. I'm still considering what you wrote about it falling away in times of stress.

    And yes, good point about how in a forum like this, knowing someone's type is a shortcut to understanding their perspective and so on. So a lot of this is inevitable.
    Last edited by golden; 02-04-2011 at 12:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    There is a very noticible difference in interactions where people are responding to me AS me, and when they're responding to me as their IDEA of me. Real life and online both.
    I wish I had an example from your real life when you felt someone was responding to you as their idea of who you are, rather than the real you.

    I choose anonymity here, and avoid giving out too much personal information because it provides a much less clouded view of who I am. You would think that more information would be better, but it isn't always. Sometimes more information just creates more confusion. Biases once created are hard for many people to let go. And that can include type biases. Some people will see a person a certain way if that's how they have typed at some point, and shaking that is difficult.
    I hadn't thought of it this way before.

    But, in the end, what is most telling is when you're relaxed and unguarded, and others are as well, what comes out in your communication. If you're TRYING to be a certain type you might fool some people, but you won't be understood or known. And if other people are forming opinions and responding to you BASED on what type they think you are, they're shortchanging themselves out of understanding as well. Authenticity is far easier and reduces rather than causes tension and stress. If you're judged based on that, or your type, that is the judger's problem and there isn't anything you can do about that.
    Yeah, I don't really know how to try to be a certain type. I just watch myself and wonder about what comes out and how I feel depending on the idea of what my type could be. So far I notice that if I'm "supposed" to be IEI, I feel a bit uncomfortable and hemmed in, and if I'm "supposed" to be EIE, I feel freer and relaxed in some ways but also aware that it's not a very, um, beloved type necessarily.
    Last edited by golden; 02-04-2011 at 03:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Golden, you look like the forum member Red Baron (IEI).

    EDIT: It's not Golden who reminds me of Red Baron, it is PianoSinger

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    If for any reason you wanna know what I look like, you can PM me for pix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    Ignorance is bliss. Does socionics help? Of course! Is it always comparatively happier knowing how you react to things and understanding how your mind works? Nope. Sometimes it is more fun to just let loose, not analyze everything. (Sometimes alcohol helps with that )
    I don't know if I agree with the idea that ignorance is bliss. Maybe for a while it can be, don't know about the sustainability of it.

    Your type? Fe-leading.
    Yes, I'm probably Fe leading, though not necessarily for all the reasons you stated. No, I'm not ESFj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    I'd say it's something most people here do to some extent, and those who don't more likely "got over it" than never did in the first place.
    I appreciate this clear, brief response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    The worst case scenario is that it wastes a bit of your time. The mind is resilient enough not to let the new information alter it's own constitution.
    Right. This is a bit like what Megadoomer was saying, I think. Any charade will not be sustainable for too long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton2 View Post
    The fact that this happens doesn't seem unusual or alarming to me. Given that people internalize stereotypes about conceivably any human attribute: gender, race, class, creed, ethnicity, locality, education, vocation, hobbies, tastes, behavior, martial status, political views… sociotype… ad infinitum. General notions re: "people who are X", "people who do Y", "people who like Z", etc.
    I have to respond to you, or you'll assume I ignored this, lol. No, it's not exactly surprising or alarming.


    I think it can be conducive to self-knowledge. But like someone else opined, don't fit yourself to it. Socionics has valid insights that can be utilized life, but also keep in perspective that much of it has been fashioned by amateurs and kooks with little to no epistemic oversight; i.e. take everything Socionics says with a grain of salt, discard anything that you can't experientially confirm for yourself.

    As far as how it can aid self-knowledge, I remember in the beginning it kind of helped me realize/accept in some ways that I wasn't weird/fucked up/etc. Not that I'm entirely exempt, but you know.
    Right. You are aware of some of my gripes about socionics, enough said. It's not a perfect system. And yeah, part of why EIE is useful for me to consider as my type is that it does a far better job of explaining what the hell is wrong with me. Seeing myself as IEI seems like an opportunity to avoid taking a close look at my particular weaknesses etc. It's slightly reassuring to know that these problems/weaknesses are not mine alone but have to do with cognitive preferences. Not an excuse, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nowisthetime View Post
    I think it's a common thing to do. People who are into personality typology are often in the search for themselves also, so they have a weak sense of identity. I have a weak identity, but I think socionics has helped a lot, except for in the beginning when I got too carried away and got overly focused on myself and my type. But it wears off after some time.
    Maybe it's also true that people who get into typology are just demanding more in terms of their sense of identity.

    It's easy enough to derive identity from, for example, the social roles we play. But if any of those roles are suddenly taken away, people can be thrown back on their own devices and must build identity once again.

    Now, maybe there's nothing wrong with finding some identity in a role, so long as that role also serves or nourishes the authentic self.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    I think if you do find yourself altering your behavior to meet type descriptions (which I agree seems like it could be common) it might be time to step away from the forum for a bit. Not specifically aimed at you but in general.

    Soconics is interesting, but I wouldn't make life choices based on it.
    Agreed. I'm not sure I'm altering anything. It's just a question in my mind, something I'm on the watch for. And yeah, re life choices, I've been a bit surprised at certain suggestions thrown my way: "You're EIE, so you just need to find an LSI." Huh? Right, that's gonna fix everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    I wish I had an example from your real life when you felt someone was responding to you as their idea of who you are, rather than the real you.
    Here's one that is typology related. At one job I had they got all excited about MBTI and had all of us take a test. After looking at the results, I started getting odd jobs assigned to me, that were supposed to match my personality type. They gave me for instance the job of creating a new organizational system for books and files in one area. I would have MUCH rather have just been a gopher or something. My favorite days were when people needed things delivered to far off places around campus, so I could spend my time going place to place and actually doing something (and getting away from everyone else.) I said as much, but apparently the test was smarter than me about me than I was.

    Another example is when I've met people, and they've decided what kind of person I am without my input, and make false assumptions based off of that. "Oh, she won't like this because she's . . . or she'd enjoy this because she's . . . "

    Another kind of silly example: One time in high school I joined a long-distance running group with a bunch of guys, and because a couple of them had worked for my dad, and he had a strict "no bad language" rule, they were all EXCESSIVELY careful with their speech around me. Part of that was just plain fear of my dad, but they also assumed I'd be bothered by it.

    But mostly I was referring to long-term impressions and ideas built up over time that some people have formed of me that are grossly inaccurate. I was involved in some legal shit, bad situation, and one lady decided that I was the most evil, and manipulative person in the world, and I was somehow manipulating everyone to make it go my way. She even broke into my house to gather "evidence" of how I was hiding things and lying. Evidence she never found, because it didn't exist. A lawyer's account of how my record-keeping was the best he had ever seen in his 20+ years of practice wasn't good enough for her either, she needed copies of all of it. Nothing I said could ever make any difference because it was "obviously" calculated to deceive.


    Yeah, I don't really know how to try to be a certain type. I just watch myself and wonder what about what comes out and how I feel depending on the idea of what my type could be. So far I notice that if I'm "supposed" to be IEI, I feel a bit uncomfortable and hemmed in, and if I'm "supposed" to be EIE, I feel freer and relaxed in some ways but also aware that it's not a very, um, beloved type necessarily.
    LSIs aren't a very beloved type either, lol. I don't mind that though, because even the stereotypes have a grain of truth to them (well, many of them anyway.) If I thought I was some other type, I'd be bothered by those false stereotypes and probably try to correct everyone's misinterpretation of the type, so that I didn't feel so labeled. I guess I'm saying that a label isn't so much of a burden if it's at least somewhat accurate.

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    I will definitely see you differently depending on what you self-type as. I don't have much to go by on a forum, so the personality type that you categorize yourself as plays a large role. However, I don't think that my own behavior changes very much based on my self-typing, as my self-image came before any Socionics knowledge - the only real difference being that I'm more likely to feel annoyed rather than inadequate when confronted with something that I perceive as or .



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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    Would you happen to have any advice on how to do this? I'm rather identity deprived myself.
    Kind of, yes. It's pretty strange for anyone to not have a sense of identity or having a sense self, right... It's pretty strange for someone to not know "who" he is, or even not know what he's doing. Such a person is likely leading a robotic life, more or less doing things automatically based on his whatever needs and necessities that arises. He is confused and muddled about the whole idea of what he is, or what he believes, what he feels, thinks. We could say that such a person is alienated from himself. This is often called something like "depersonalization". This can only happen as long as your own, genuine feelings, thoughts and wishes have receded in importance. They may have disappeared almost entirely, they may have been silenced, or they may have been pushed back at the expense of the emergence of our pseudo-self, the self which is not who we are in actuality, but the false self that we have gradually developed using the aid of our imagination (it's likely that who we are in our imagination and our fantasies are much more desirable than who we actually are). Instead of cultivating himself for who he is, he has actively moved away from his real self to create his false self using his imagination, which only adds to the confusing of "who" he really is. Living in a competitive society such as ours, it may not matter what we feel or who we are, as long as we are safe. Growing up in an unfavorable environment where you could not freely express yourself is the most unfortunate, because being helpless on our own, it forces us to sacrifice our real self, our real feelings, thoughts, and wishes for our own safety. Instead of having an "alive" center of self, instead of being able to have and express spontaneous thoughts and feelings, it may be necessary for us to come up with artificial strategic ways to cope with others or a certain situation. We no longer interact with others with our real thoughts and feelings, but via artificial strategic necessities. Then, it follows that we no longer take a look at and nurture our real selves, but we chase the illusionary needs and phantom goals of our imaginary selves. So the direction of our growth becomes stunted.

    So, I believe the goal of such an alienated person is to return to his "alive" center of self, to be able to spontaneously express his genuine thoughts and feelings and wishes. Our real selves may have been receded in importance, they may have been silenced or pushed aside, but they still exist, and they can still be salvaged with a careful consideration, patience, time and analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Anyway, here's the thing. It creeps me out a little to note that some people on here will possibly see me differently if I am typed one way or the other.
    I have never done this. It's retarded. Even if Socionics were a more well-rounded hypothesis, the intertype relations are still lacking in definitiveness and testability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    It creeps me out even more to consider that I might alter my own behavior depending on which type I think I more likely am.
    See above answer about if Socionics were a more well-rounded hypothesis. Don't start changing yourself, because you run the risk of doing so in ways that could have a potentially negative impact on your personality and perceptions of others.

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    i think the advice not to change yourself to fit a type is good advice and i do think that some people do this purposefully to some extent so the advice could be useful to them. but i also think it presumes an awareness of one's motivations that is greater than most people have (and i'm not excluding myself - trying to pinpoint my own motivations is something that i work on a lot). that's what makes it all kinda complicated and shitty. i don't think that these things happen consciously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Kind of, yes. It's pretty strange for anyone to not have a sense of identity or having a sense self, right... It's pretty strange for someone to not know "who" he is, or even not know what he's doing. Such a person is likely leading a robotic life, more or less doing things automatically based on his whatever needs and necessities that arises. He is confused and muddled about the whole idea of what he is, or what he believes, what he feels, thinks. We could say that such a person is alienated from himself. This is often called something like "depersonalization". This can only happen as long as your own, genuine feelings, thoughts and wishes have receded in importance. They may have disappeared almost entirely, they may have been silenced, or they may have been pushed back at the expense of the emergence of our pseudo-self, the self which is not who we are in actuality, but the false self that we have gradually developed using the aid of our imagination (it's likely that who we are in our imagination and our fantasies are much more desirable than who we actually are). Instead of cultivating himself for who he is, he has actively moved away from his real self to create his false self using his imagination, which only adds to the confusing of "who" he really is. Living in a competitive society such as ours, it may not matter what we feel or who we are, as long as we are safe. Growing up in an unfavorable environment where you could not freely express yourself is the most unfortunate, because being helpless on our own, it forces us to sacrifice our real self, our real feelings, thoughts, and wishes for our own safety. Instead of having an "alive" center of self, instead of being able to have and express spontaneous thoughts and feelings, it may be necessary for us to come up with artificial strategic ways to cope with others or a certain situation. We no longer interact with others with our real thoughts and feelings, but via artificial strategic necessities. Then, it follows that we no longer take a look at and nurture our real selves, but we chase the illusionary needs and phantom goals of our imaginary selves. So the direction of our growth becomes stunted.

    So, I believe the goal of such an alienated person is to return to his "alive" center of self, to be able to spontaneously express his genuine thoughts and feelings and wishes. Our real selves may have been receded in importance, they may have been silenced or pushed aside, but they still exist, and they can still be salvaged with a careful consideration, patience, time and analysis.
    I feel a lot of this applies to me. Especially the bolded. It seems there's no cut-and-dry, follow the steps to equanimity thing to acquiring a firm sense of self.

    This was helpful, though, thank you.
    4w5 sp/sx

    Please, direct all questioning of my self-typing to this thread. Thank you.

  34. #34
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    re: sense of self, the best thing I ever heard (which I don't agree with, on poetic grounds, but it's still useful), is that some people run around all the time asking themselves who they are, constantly observing themselves, constantly meditating on themselves, constantly introspecting. And the true self is the self that asks, observes, meditates, and introspects. My identity is not any particular set of factors (personality or otherwise), but rather the internal self that watches and considers. Also, Walt Whitman, me myself, section six (I think), which I've quoted too many times on this forum for my own good.

    Now, re: type and sense of self, I have (as usual) an illustrative anecdote. Once upon a time, Maritsa typed me SEE. I actually considered, for a time, that I could be SEE. And I realized that considering myself SEE made me feel... allowed to act more confident and be more assertive. Of course, I realized that I'm still IEI, just an IEI person who happens to be capable of being assertive and forward, especially in situations with people I don't know. I still have the same Se-DS inertia (today an ILI did the same "where should I go eat" thing that I always do and I was like a-ha, Se-DS), the same attachment to an inner world of changing concepts and the associations between them, the same everything. So yes, my type does me feel allowed to do certain things. But I've realized that I'm allowed to do whatever I am, and if I can do something, that means it's in me, at least to a small degree. So I've learned not to force it, but to allow myself to be whatever it is I am in the moment. If I feel like being super smiley and pleasant in the moment, I can be. If I feel like seeming kind of tough and standoff-ish, I can. None of this changes my core personality. I guess I've learned to see IEI as my sociotype corresponding to certain essential factors about me, and about how I behave on-the-whole, or in-general, but nevertheless to ride whatever non-essential behavior I take in a given situation. For instance, a lot of the time, I know exactly what I want to do in a given situation, even if it is where I will get lunch. It's just that on the whole, I tend to be... not indecisive, but inert, needing someone to express, essentially, I want you do to x as a motivation for me to do x (i.e., volitional pressure).

    As a tangent, I've been thinking about me and Se/volitional pressure, and I've determined that the worst feeling in the world for me is when I feel like I can't fight back. I don't mind disagreeing with someone, as long as I feel like if push comes to shove, I can fight back. But being in a situation is trying to control my actions, and I do not have any acceptable (to me) recourse is my least favorite situation ever, and that's what makes me the most frustrated, the most angry, the most everything.

    Anyway, regardless, type can be useful for self-understanding, not just self-(de)limitation. I find that while socionics hasn't taught me much (anything?) about myself, it has given me an extraordinarily useful vocabulary for describing trends in myself and others that I may have noticed before (oh, so and so is an x kind of person, so and so is a y kind of person) but never had a vocabulary for. And I think that by seeing monitoring how I feel in certain situations, I have learned something through socionics, if for no other reason than that it's given me a term (Se) for this thing that I've always wanted, this spontaneity, this in-the-moment-ness (rather than in-my-head-ness). And I had all sorts of metaphors for it (and still do), like "actually being a kid" or the walt whitman poem "we two boys together clinging" which is about a) homoeroticism ("masculine adhesiveness," if you're whitman), b) Se-dualseeking, and c) sx-fix. But having a sort of "cleaner" term for it, washed clean of the "being a real boy" aspect of it, is extraordinarily helpful for my thoughts and meditations on, you know, life the universe and everything.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    If for any reason you wanna know what I look like, you can PM me for pix.
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    It seems there's no cut-and-dry, follow the steps to equanimity thing to acquiring a firm sense of self.
    Yeah, I'd suppose it'd be like being told how to be yourself, which wouldn't really make sense.

    But being "ourselves"... really implies our ability to make our own choices. It boils down to the ability and the willingness to take responsibilities for the choices that we make, the things that we say, the things that we do, the way we feel and think, and to fully bear the consequences for them. Only with that acceptance... we can start making choices on our own. Only then, we can start to have our own values and beliefs, and have our own feelings and thoughts and wishes and desires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Why this face?

    A few people on here have wanted to see pix for VI purposes, but I don't wanna leave photos around on permanent display.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    I'm asking myself, therefore: Does Socionics help with self-knowledge, or does it hinder it? I'm sure it can do either/both, but in what ways?
    I came over to Socionics from MBTI and was excited to see how it employed a different scheme. That led me to try on a number of roles from INTj to ENFp.

    During the process I realized there were certain personas that fit better than others, and while acting out in those roles wasn't authentic, it allowed me to dial-in to a plausible best fit.

    Hence my current typing.

    On a semi-related note, any/all identity-issues have largely been resolved through life experience. I think a person needs to experience a range of environmental conditions - good, bad, safe, dangerous, interesting, boring, etc. - to understand the range of their personality, at which point they start to emmanate a consistency that's identifiable to themselves and others.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

  39. #39
    "Information without energy is useless" Nowisthetime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    I think if you do find yourself altering your behavior to meet type descriptions (which I agree seems like it could be common) it might be time to step away from the forum for a bit. Not specifically aimed at you but in general.
    .
    I totally understand your suggestion, but I don't see it as really a big deal. I get easily carried away with a lot of stuff, not only socionics. I'm used to it. It goes on for some time and then it wears off, until something else enters my life. The way I handled the alterning of behaviour to meet my type was simply to read more about typology and then after a while it wasn't so new and interesting anymore, and I got more back to myself.

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    great post,Singularity. I think it describes an enneagram sp first.Or not.To me,it looks like most people feel that they should either act like hardcore sps looking for a corner/safety or full blown sxs not giving a damn and doing their own thing - usually demonstrating a great deal of histrionic-ness.
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