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Thread: Subjective Descriptions of Functions

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    Default Subjective Descriptions of Functions

    So, we're all driving towards a good, objective understanding of the functions, but why don't we talk some about how the functions feel subjectively to each type. The reason I suggest this is because it can help with typing. For instance, I think this is a great description, taken from a review of the musical version of Sister Act, of how Fe (and, imo, alpha quadra) feels to an Fe-polr (imo, ILI):

    "Call me a miserable old monk but I hated Sister Act. I hated its artistic laziness, its predictability, its incuriosity, its idea that disco is divine and that spirituality can never be found in discreet and dignified worship . . . I know I may be taking it too seriously but I found myself recoiling sharply from this story's saccharine values and its bullying gaiety. The thing is as shallow as the Aral Sea."

    Point being, if we know how the IMs feel subjectively, then perhaps when people talk about certain environments/people/whatever, we can see how it correlates with having a certain IE in a certain position/function.

    So yes, I don't have anything at the moment, but please share how you feel subjectively about each IM, how you experience it. Even if you know it is objectively wrong (i.e., "I experience Fi as a focus on manners and etiquette), share it, because if many people feel that way it could still be a good aid for typing, if not for actually understanding the core of the IM. Also, don't feel the need to address all 8; just talk about whatever you feel like talking about.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    Okay, I'll try a few...

    Ti-PoLR: My first reaction usually to anything complex is to freeze. I hate having to wade through numbers and charts and the like, and will only willingly do it if I feel that "the end justifies the means." Otherwise, I really can't stand the tedium. i hate having to explain myself in a purely logical manner.

    Ne-Base: I am always excited by new possiblities, and finding new potential in old things. And if I start to feel "stuck in a rut," my mind quickly fills itself with ideas to "shake things up" and make my surroundings interesting again.

    Te-HA: I appreciate having things orderly and efficient; I try to keep things orderly myself, and succeed every so often, for a short time; but to have a consistently-orderly environment would be heaven...but it will probably never happen, because as soon as things get organized, I immediately start in on some exciting new project, neglecting to keep things tidy in the process. So then I have to once again take the time to clean up and organize everything, and I end up putting way too much energy into organizing and cleaning up my old projects when what I am really eager to do is start in right away on the next project. But, if I don't put in the energy to "wipe the slate clean" between projects, eventually things get so cluttered that my creativity stalls until I can get around to cleaning.
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    One peculiar thing I've noticed is how sometimes, even within your own quadra, there is a resentment of using unvalued IEs.

    One EII I know annoyed me a lot because she was so focused on Fe, even though she didn't really like it. It was a sense of her feeling she needed to be 'pleasing' and even fake-like, but this inner turmoil. Something about her upbringing. I think being around me and other non Fe people affected her in that way.

    Similarly, I've been in awkward situations where I felt uncomfortable or whatever and an unusual need to focus on Fe, and, various delta people called me out on it, saying I was being weird. It's kind of funny how noticable it is at times.


    As far as more 'straight up' feelings, One thing that has begun to bother me a lot lately is Ti > Te focus -- I've openly stated to people "but thinking in this way is only useful if...", or "yes, but that system/pattern of thought will only yield", and it's an internal argument about adhearance to the system because it's 'right' or whatever vs how 'useful' the whole system is. I think, honestly, to be people who are very focused on Ti or Fi (IJs?), when I go "ultra Te" it scares them, because all values and systems are negotiable; there is no respect or partiality for a normative judgment. I seem to be more comfortable with that than others, not that it is any less comfortable, just acknowledging that it is there, those possibilities.


    What I don't like is that sometimes Fe/Ti people see it as more a threat that shouldn't be talked about or avoided, but those come more from certain rational elements within alpha/beta quadra. People who are "more cunning" don't mind it as it can fit in with their take on 'valuing Se' somewhat. Where as, say, delta NFs can react strongly to it because of the uncomfortableness of having to acknowledge the viability of gruesomeness, in thought, theory, or reality.

    Gammas, actually overall, seem to have the least problem with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    As far as more 'straight up' feelings, One thing that has begun to bother me a lot lately is Ti > Te focus -- I've openly stated to people "but thinking in this way is only useful if...", or "yes, but that system/pattern of thought will only yield", and it's an internal argument about adhearance to the system because it's 'right' or whatever vs how 'useful' the whole system is. I think, honestly, to be people who are very focused on Ti or Fi (IJs?), when I go "ultra Te" it scares them, because all values and systems are negotiable; there is no respect or partiality for a normative judgment. I seem to be more comfortable with that than others, not that it is any less comfortable, just acknowledging that it is there, those possibilities.


    What I don't like is that sometimes Fe/Ti people see it as more a threat that shouldn't be talked about or avoided, but those come more from certain rational elements within alpha/beta quadra. People who are "more cunning" don't mind it as it can fit in with their take on 'valuing Se' somewhat. Where as, say, delta NFs can react strongly to it because of the uncomfortableness of having to acknowledge the viability of gruesomeness, in thought, theory, or reality.

    Gammas, actually overall, seem to have the least problem with it.

    What the hell are you talking about? speak plainly man! This is all rather obscure.

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    I've been pondering these a bit and have three descriptions.


    Se: When I’m with someone who’s “using” a lot of Se, I feel safer, invigorated, like the world is opening up and anything is possible. I can drop some of my caution and tension. I can be stronger, more myself. Se people interest me; the way they move, the way they see things. Very fresh and real. Speed. Lightning that touches down, with me almost knowing where and when it will land.

    Se, in my opinion, also can be about aesthetics, which I sometimes see attributed to Si only. I love hearing and learning about how Se-egos and Se-valuers see art, hear music—how it affects them, what they enjoy about it. I normally share their taste a great deal.

    I associate Se with a spirit of adventure, a feeling of pushing boldly ahead. Rough sex. Strong touch. Intense connection.

    Solving problems through pressure or force.

    And I’ve noticed an Se-dominant doing crazy stuff in terms of making illogical leaps to correct conclusions based on small concrete details. It’s almost like a psychic power.

    - - - - - - - - -

    Ni: Playing with my perception. Shaping consciousness. Crossing boundaries of time. The inner movie camera with which I zoom and pan. The film is surreal, soft. Profundity, holiness. The true nature. The all-knowing know-nothing. The desert, the canyon.

    - - - - - - - - -

    Fe: Where the empty or inert psychic or intrapersonal space exists between me and another, or a group, a force automatically flows from me to fill it or animate it. This force is plastic, moldable, conforms to just the shape of the target it connects with. This can come off to others, I guess, as projection, as emoting, as lability, mobility, attention gaining.

    But it’s not always the case that being super outgoing, flashy, or over-the-top will gain attention or lead to a feeling of connection or command. Often, the enigmatic facade feels safer, the inscrutable, the puzzle. Fe has a potential bigness and reactivity that can lead to embarrassing eruption. With trusted close friends, it’s refreshing to be goofy and flowing, to know that this mad thing will be welcomed and perceived as nonthreatening.

    Fe tracks. It notes nuances of a situation, a person, surroundings.

    I suspect that Fe also “thinks” and calculates, and not only about people. Its plasticity can also mold to ideas. The biggest problem I’ve had with learning is that sometimes, information is not presented to me in a way I find very … impressive. I need a strong force to press into my understanding, and probably the less I “naturally” relate to the subject matter, the stronger the force must be.
    Last edited by golden; 02-04-2011 at 07:17 AM.

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    Se: To me it can seem hyper goal-oriented. Like it feels very fixated on whatever thing it has in mind and aims to pursue it at whatever costs. This can feel really intimidating to me, because I spend the bulk of my time sorta lazing about waiting for something to come along, whereas Se people are very active in what they pursue. In this way they can come across as really pushy, like they're expecting me to follow through with something and pursue it to the bitter end.

    Ni: Undiluted Ni comes off as a long rambling stream of thought that feels like it's supposed to mean something, but is really just a garbled mess of pseudo-intellectualism and philosophy. Even in terms of grammatical structures that Ni dominants/subtypes use I find myself lost trying to decipher it. It feels like there's an idea hidden in there somewhere, but it's just trapped by a complete inability to express it properly.

    Fe: My experience with Fe egos has been half-and-half in terms of positive reactions. I can appreciate it when I'm in a good mood and am playing with "good vibes" and shit, but once I get down it feels like they don't respect the fact that I'm in a bad mood at the moment. Then by trying to change my mood from bad to good they only aggravate me more in a way that makes me feel like the just don't understand the nature of my bad mood. It can feel very oblivious to my inner subjectivities, sorta toying around with parts inside me that aren't supposed to be touched at all. But again, it all depends on the mood I'm in.

    Ti: I feel like I've never had too much trouble with Ti itself, but then again I never really see Ti being used in its pure form so it's hard to say. The only times I notice Ti is when they say something that sounds like "X is Y" or some other seemingly declarative statement. It's only occurred to me recently that Ti egos are trying to express subjectivity by saying that, but it's always felt like they're drawing direct conclusions between things in a very hasty manner. Then whenever I try to state how "X doesn't equal Y in this situation" Ti egos always find a way to weasel around that statement. It can feel like I'm trying to bend a paper clip into a completely straight wire, where the more I try to take out the bends and kinks, the more frustrated I get when I see that it still isn't straight.

    The most trouble I have with Ti is when I try to recreate those declarative "X=Y" things, because most every time I try to make statements like that I immediately find bits of information that contradict the point I make. Whenever this happens I simply stop talking because I'm afraid of those connections being easily ripped apart by someone more adept at finding those connections.



    Te: Te by itself feels like a sort of controlled chaos that I can't help but be fascinated by. As an Fi ego, I need some sort of substance to give to this ever-present feeling of meaning I experience, so to find those feelings physically manifested in external phenomena gives me a great sense of importance. It's like Te makes me feel like I matter in the world, that I can produce something of value to other people or society or whatever.

    Si: I've always analogized Si with a gravitational field of sorts. Picture what Si "sees" as something like gravity being warped and manipulated by the presence of objects in space, something like this:
    http://www.spaceanimations.org/image...itywell001.jpg
    To Si, it's as if the physical world is this sort of field that has these grooves and indentations to it, and the presence of each abstracted concept/Ne chunk creates an indent and determines the shape of this field. Ultimately the desire is for this field to be completely flat, devoid of hindering bumps in the road that leads to a smooth existence. As such, these abstracted Ne ideas in the world physically manifest themselves as warps in this field of physicality. Descriptions of Si as "comfort, relaxation" etc are only really secondary desires to what is understood from this physical field.

    Ne: On average, nothing more than an idle background process as far as I'm concerned. I mean, I constantly catch myself following along with Ne stuffs, but it's rarely ever something I consciously think about; nor do I really find myself putting much emphasis on what it is I'm doing. That seems to be the nature of the base function, something that simply happens when one isn't particularly aware of it. My auto-pilot mode is to play with these intrinsic pieces of the world and mess around with them through whatever means. But it can feel like there isn't really anything of value to doing this, it's more just the place I go to while awaiting other actions.

    Fi: On a more conscious level, Fi seems to be placed higher in priority than Ne for me. Like I feel like Fi has more importance or merit to it over Ne, because it feels like this sort of the all-encompassing meaning to the universe that only I have the capacity to understand. I find it very easy to get lost in what I'm feeling about the world, to a fault perhaps. It can seem like a catalyst whose presence or absence controls the end result to whatever I'm doing. In this way it can feel like Fi has more power over me than Ne does, like I'm sort of a slave to the subjective feelings about the world I have.
    Last edited by Galen; 02-04-2011 at 07:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post

    And I’ve noticed an Se-dominant doing crazy stuff in terms of making illogical leaps to correct conclusions based on small concrete details. It’s almost like a psychic power.
    That's alpha Ti limiting itself to beta Ti. Only possibilities related to the immediate situation are considered.

    And yes, LSIs are amazing at it. If you've not watched Code Geass, I think you should. Its titular character is an LSI and I think you would love it.

    - - - - - - - - -

    Ni: Playing with my perception. Shaping consciousness. Crossing boundaries of time. The inner movie camera with which I zoom and pan. The film is surreal, soft. Profundity, holiness. The true nature. The all-knowing know-nothing. The desert, the canyon.

    - - - - - - - - -
    I can't zoom, I can't pan. It's all just 2 second clips. (if that long)

    Fe: Where the empty or inert psychic or intrapersonal space exists between me and another, or a group, a force automatically flows from me to fill it or animate it. This force is plastic, moldable, conforms to just the shape of the target it connects with. This can come off to others, I guess, as projection, as emoting, as lability, mobility, attention gaining.

    But it’s not always the case that being super outgoing, flashy, or over-the-top will gain attention or lead to a feeling of connection or command. Often, the enigmatic facade feels safer, the inscrutable, the puzzle. Fe has a potential bigness and reactivity that can lead to embarrassing eruption. With trusted close friends, it’s refreshing to be goofy and flowing, to know that this mad thing will be welcomed and perceived as nonthreatening.
    See I hate that. I hate that "atmospheric effect" that people create around each other, and I resist it. It's one reason I want a relationship with an ESFJ, because they don't pressure themselves in that way at all. Alpha Fe doesn't mold -- it reacts.

    Fe tracks. It notes nuances of a situation, a person, surroundings.
    Self

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    That's alpha Ti limiting itself to beta Ti. Only possibilities related to the immediate situation are considered.

    And yes, LSIs are amazing at it. If you've not watched Code Geass, I think you should. Its titular character is an LSI and I think you would love it.
    Not my usual type of entertainment, but maybe I should watch it for that reason alone.


    I can't zoom, I can't pan. It's all just 2 second clips. (if that long)
    Nothing wrong with clips.


    See I hate that. I hate that "atmospheric effect" that people create around each other, and I resist it. It's one reason I want a relationship with an ESFJ, because they don't pressure themselves in that way at all. Alpha Fe doesn't mold -- it reacts.
    I don't love it, really. But I'm not sure I pressure myself. I do react, but there's a pushing outward, and that must be the thing that disturbs you?


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    The pushing outward is unreal... it seems natural I know, but it's a departure from how I experience reality when I'm by myself. I know what causes it: functions strengthen when they encounter a strong version of themselves in another person. I don't think I could ever bear a relationship with an LII for this reason: just talking with LII women submerges me in a torrent of Ne that I feel I'm going to drown in. Sure I like imagination but not to the extent that it squelches all attention for everything else.

    When I was with my last gf, an ENFJ, I noticed that when I was with her the time seemed to stretch uncomfortably. She always spent more time with the things she liked than I was comfortable with, and when I felt obligated to spend time with her I noticed this was what happened, that she'd push and push until I was feeling trapped by my own considerateness.

    But that also happens with my dad, so her being ENFJ may not have anything to do with it.

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    tcaud, you have negative capability (in the Keatsian sense as propounded by a professor I had this semester, which is different than I've previously thought of it). Because you don't lack self-awareness, quite the opposite, but rather, you seem to be aware of how frankly ridiculous you can seem (despite not being ridiculous, not really), but you ignore it in favor of another aspect of the truth, which is the degree to which your speculations (on socionics and other matters) are true and accurate. Focus on one side of the truth without forgetting (maybe not even in your foremost conscious mind, but in the hum of thoughts evaded in the mind) the other side.

    This is my reaction to how dreadfully convinced you seem of everything you say, which is utterly foreign to me.

    Anyway.

    Se is like a push forward so I can start doing something. When an Se-ego is in the room (and acting in an excited state), there's more motion in the room, the energy is more up, and, just like physical energy and physical motion, it starts to speed me up too. Also, Se is a firm adherence to something as truth truth, which won't let you escape to the right or to the left.

    Maybe more when I'm not exhausted.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    As subjective as you can get, here it is:

    Si - linearity, sequence, direct tracing of each part of the process. Sometimes Si-ego can bore me to tears before they get to the point, or they'll shout at me to "slow down" and explain every step in detail and I'm like , you're missing the big picture.

    Se - impact, goal, target, focus, energy, mobilization, motivation. Actuality - realized potential, making it happen.

    Ni - trends, tendencies, hidden connections, implicit context, approximation, estimation, crucial points. It's probably related to one's base function more than just valuing, but it also seems to be an element distinguishing relevance for me - is it a crucial factor or not? Does it matter in long term?

    Ne - trying to repaint things to fit them into context, into Si flow. Sometimes ends up creative and even funny.

    Ti - rule, code, system, principles, letter of the law. Strong normative focus with unrealistic absolutism. Truth is equivalent to accordance with the rules. With Ti-egos, the feeling is that they tell me what to think and how to think, in a way that is almost insulting, as if they assumed I can't put the pieces together for myself, but need and ought to accept their "superior" reasoning.

    Te - investigation of information's actual content, contrasting it, comparing different sources, trying to extract "facts" from reality. External dynamics of objects - how different "facts" affect each other, inferring their validity from it. That the result of experiment X was Y only means this, that X yielded Y, not "just Y" - to try and assess its exact meaning, we need to consider how X was conducted and what it really represented etc. In other words, a direct influence of "objects" on each other is examined.

    Fi - the "core", normative framework that isn't clearly defined, spirit of the law. No matter how deep you look, not everything can be explained and put into clear rules - a more vague approach is needed. You can't put your relations with others into labeled boxes (i.e. explicitly define them) anymore than write down humane values in the form of codex, and if you try, it's going to be imperfect, with counterexamples ready to be showed. Fi isn't clearly delimitated, but allows for subjective evaluation of those.

    Fe - things I don't get, lol. I usually experience it as making demands on my emotions, trying to make me feel like others do. Hypocritically claiming "freedom of expression" and "genuine emotions", yet living it only as far as others' compliance with *their* mood goes, it seems. Being out of sync with the group is a transgression, as is attempting discussion of the real issues over nodding along and smiling at whatever the other person says to keep the interaction going. Then there's the horrible, terrible crime of "spoiling one's mood" (wtf?!). /end of rant My guess is that it works a bit like Te, except deals with indirect influences, possibly deriving a sense of personal meaning out of it?

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    Se: cavemanship and prototype-thinking (i.e. the primacy of a survivalist mindset over concerns of higher cultural worth; the assumption that any scenario being observed either perfectly matches a previously observed one or is simply impossible to recognize)
    Fi: nepotism and reactionary thinking (i.e. substituting a carnal reaction to an issue for reason; refusing to view an issue as the consequential outcome of a combination of factors in favor of deriving the implication of a statement of value from an isolated particular as in "nothing involving X can possibly be good")
    Ni: prejudice (i.e. a mindset that seeks to determine observational outcomes under an assumption that the elementary scenarios match those manifested in the past, which they typically don't)
    Te: paranoid solipsist denialism (i.e. a mindset that will postpone making vital assumptions allegedly as a means of avoiding bias to such an extent that the manifest attitude is itself a bias towards excessive conservatism and anti-intellectualism)

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Se: cavemanship and prototype-thinking (i.e. the primacy of a survivalist mindset over concerns of higher cultural worth; the assumption that any scenario being observed either perfectly matches a previously observed one or is simply impossible to recognize)
    Fi: nepotism and reactionary thinking (i.e. substituting a carnal reaction to an issue for reason; refusing to view an issue as the consequential outcome of a combination of factors in favor of deriving the implication of a statement of value from an isolated particular as in "nothing involving X can possibly be good")
    Wow. I wasn't going to comment on other's descriptions, but you managed to capture 1-dimensionality ("the assumption that any scenario being observed either perfectly matches a previously observed one or is simply impossible to recognize") and 2-dimensionality (»deriving the implication of a statement of value from an isolated particular as in "nothing involving X can possibly be good«) perfectly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Se: cavemanship and prototype-thinking (i.e. the primacy of a survivalist mindset over concerns of higher cultural worth; the assumption that any scenario being observed either perfectly matches a previously observed one or is simply impossible to recognize)
    Fi: nepotism and reactionary thinking (i.e. substituting a carnal reaction to an issue for reason; refusing to view an issue as the consequential outcome of a combination of factors in favor of deriving the implication of a statement of value from an isolated particular as in "nothing involving X can possibly be good")
    Ni: prejudice (i.e. a mindset that seeks to determine observational outcomes under an assumption that the elementary scenarios match those manifested in the past, which they typically don't)
    Te: paranoid solipsist denialism (i.e. a mindset that will postpone making vital assumptions allegedly as a means of avoiding bias to such an extent that the manifest attitude is itself a bias towards excessive conservatism and anti-intellectualism)
    Hahaha. *claps*
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