View Poll Results: What was the sociotype of Carl Jung?

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  • ILE (ENTp)

    3 6.12%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    0 0%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    0 0%
  • LII (INTj)

    14 28.57%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    1 2.04%
  • IEI (INFp)

    11 22.45%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    0 0%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    2 4.08%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    0 0%
  • ILI (INTp)

    14 28.57%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    0 0%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    0 0%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    1 2.04%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    0 0%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    0 0%
  • EII (INFj)

    3 6.12%
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Thread: Carl Jung's type

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    You mean the facebook group. They type Donald Trump SEE. lol.

    It's hard to take them seriously with a lot of the typings they come up with. It just sounds like they're more in it for the social popularity.

    Te subtypes have a better orientation towards facts (Te has some commonalities with Ti), but the Ni-subtype of ILI doubles down on Ni-lead's inner reality (use Jung to define elements), so the last thing you're going to get is somebody who has a precise adherence to facts.
    I thought you saw the "cognitive functions" as objective cognitive processes therein negating any interpretation that doesn't categorise people with differing information styles as the same type.

    I'm guessing you are not a fan of DCNH right?

    Anyway I don't know how you may want to put it but on Jung, key facts are that he's got a distorted view of phenomena and his "logic" is difficult to follow. That's being generous - he just waddles and after years of studying psychological types. It slowly emerges that it's a mess of impressions.

    ON TRUMP
    If you go by the Gulenko models, it's apparent SEE makes total sense for Trump, he's ultra inconsistent and like the Politician - says whatever he thinks people want to hear with hyperbole and no shame. He's very emotional - 4D ethics of emotions and he runs wild with people skills. Ethical men can be very aggressive and domineering, unlike MBTI were the harmonising subtype is that ethics means for them.

    https://youtu.be/5UQyz5W11gg

    https://youtu.be/5UQyz5W11gg

    As for schools out there, I get the impression people are clear out for fame, but I personally don't care and instead hope there's a sage out there who can rescue socionics from its pseudoscience chasm. That's because tragically I see the theory as composed of half truths and full of inconsistencies. I'm not happy with schools out there, they can't fix socionics and a little group politics is preventing progress since personality cults litter some schools. East or West the same problems exist.
    Last edited by Soupman; 03-23-2018 at 08:35 AM.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    If you go by the Gulenko models
    this site is about Socionics and you should go by its models. Trump is EIE
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    this site is about Socionics and you should go by its models. Trump is EIE
    Gulenko is a socionist and his work is socionics, furthermore socionics is meant to be research not religion were people abide to unquestionable sacred text (everything is up for questioning). After all, Gulenko's work even his new models are represented here.

    Even then Gulenko's work is up for criticism, I don't agree with everything he has even though I like his work the most.

  4. #84
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    I feel like Sol got brainwashed by soviet norms so you gotta give him a little bit of a break with his strange attitude toward orthodoxy and ideology

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I feel like Sol got brainwashed by soviet norms so you gotta give him a little bit of a break with his strange attitude toward orthodoxy and ideology
    Thanks, I had suspicions that there's equal divisions in the east as well. Equal passion about what is meant to be or not socionics.

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Gulenko is a socionist
    Gulenko would be socionist if would use Socionics: Jung + Augustinavichiute.
    Somewhere in the middle of 90s he have shifted to own unbased heresy. One of the reasons he may mistake about types of some people like Trump.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Gulenko would be socionist if would use Socionics: Jung + Augustinavichiute.
    Somewhere in the middle of 90s he have shifted to own unbased heresy. One of the reasons he may mistake about types of some people like Trump.
    Are you a fan of science or orthodoxy? Do you believe socionics is/should be a science or orthodoxy?

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    I thought you saw the "cognitive functions" as objective cognitive processes therein negating any interpretation that doesn't categorise people with differing information styles as the same type.
    That's a mind-bender of a sentence. Obviously you're characterizing stuff I have posted and not quoting me directly. I'll just put it this way....I apparently posit interpretations that categorize people with the key cognitive markers for a particular type as that particular type.

    I'm guessing you are not a fan of DCNH right?
    Interesting. I would indeed expect Ni-leads to be more comfortable rendering guesses whereas Ti-leads prefers to at least estimate. It's more that I don't give a fuck about DCNH because I use stackings. The social instinct correlates to the dominant subtype. The SP instinct correlates to the normalizing and harmonizing subtypes and sexual instinct to the creative subtype. Stackings and DCNH subtypes correlate so tightly that using one renders the other moot.

    Anyway I don't know how you may want to put it but on Jung, key facts are that he's got a distorted view of phenomena and his "logic" is difficult to follow. That's being generous - he just waddles and after years of studying psychological types. It slowly emerges that it's a mess of impressions.
    That's just due to the inner knowing of Ni that Jung leads with. Keep in mind that Jung is a primary resource in Socionics and MBTI so there wouldn't be any socionics without his functions. I recently cracked Hotel Ambush and his small clique of Anti-Jungians on this topic about a week ago.

    ON TRUMP
    If you go by the Gulenko models, it's apparent SEE makes total sense for Trump, he's ultra inconsistent and like the Politician - says whatever he thinks people want to hear with hyperbole and no shame. He's very emotional - 4D ethics of emotions and he runs wild with people skills. Ethical men can be very aggressive and domineering, unlike MBTI were the harmonising subtype is that ethics means for them.
    No, SEE makes horrible sense for Trump because it's clear that he doesn't have Fi in his ego block. His people skills are weak since he's high in competitiveness and prefers to move against others. Good people skills would make him high in cooperativeness and give him a preference for moving towards others.

    Furthermore, you are wrongly assuming that Trump is saying what he thinks people want to hear. You will note that he's been saying a lot of the same things for awhile now and likely believes what he espouses. This isn't the first election cycle he ran for president. It just happened that in this election cycle the political winds were blowing in his direction....in the elections he lost your logic would get turned upside down. Your reasoning is superficial because it's merely predicated on the fact he won.

    As for schools out there, I get the impression people are clear out for fame, but I personally don't care and instead hope there's a sage out there who can rescue socionics from its pseudoscience chasm. That's because tragically I see the theory as composed of half truths and full of inconsistencies. I'm not happy with schools out there, they can't fix socionics and a little group politics is preventing progress since personality cults litter some schools. East or West the same problems exist.
    Well with any so-called sage, you want to know whether they have a VI template for each socionics type or are simply building castles in the sky. Castles in the sky like the Alpha Quadra Values mythology lead to those inconsistencies you talk about. Next, you want to know whether the VI template is operational or structurally flawed (the visual logic of socionics new wave blows socionics.com out of the water). Then you want to know whether this "sage" has a pecuniary interest. Are they charging money in exchange for typing people or are they genuinely motivated by the truth. And you also want to know whether the "sage" actively engages in debate with those that disagree or whether they avoid arguing with those who oppose their ideas and instead just surround themselves with sycophants.
    Last edited by Kill4Me; 03-24-2018 at 08:24 AM.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Are you a fan of science or orthodoxy? Do you believe socionics is/should be a science or orthodoxy?
    Actually, my sense is that you and Sol aren't all that different in your reasoning for Trump's type...the only difference is you both attribute those reasons to a different type. In that case, Sol would be right since being a ciphon for the feelings/hopes/hangups/moods of one's culture is intrinsic to Fe-dom. Fe takes the feelings of others and expresses it through a medium (Ni-creative gives the expression a more prophetic touch....Si-creative gives the expression a more common touch). But it's a moot point since you're both wrong.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    No, SEE makes horrible sense for Trump because it's clear that he doesn't have Fi in his ego block. His people skills are weak since he's high in competitiveness and prefers to move against others. Good people skills would make him high in cooperativeness and give him a preference for moving towards others.

    Furthermore, you are wrongly assuming that Trump is saying what he thinks people want to hear. You will note that he's been saying a lot of the same things for awhile now and likely believes what he espouses. This isn't the first election cycle he ran for president. It just happened that in this election cycle the political winds were blowing in his direction....in the elections he lost your logic would get turned upside down. Your reasoning is superficial because it's merely predicated on the fact he won.
    It makes total sense now, we are just not using the same models so our diagnosis aren't even mutually intelligible.

    When you say "His people skills are weak since he's high in competitiveness and prefers to move against others" you are describing the the Dominant subtype, you are exactly describing the traits which make the subtype the least agreeable one. The "people skills" displayed there are strong, but they aren't "agreeable"; good-people-skills doesn't necessarily mean high agreeability, but if semantically it means so for you then I see where our differences of interpretation are.

    Ethics of emotions, is what Trump is doing to reconnect with his base; steering and manipulating emotions is the hallmark of high EQ, emotional intelligence is not always good. You interpret these observations differently but that there is just differences of models (you can pick and choose which you prefer).

    According to the energy model SEE have the creative function Fe/E, therefore such a model totally changes what is thought of an SEE as being thus all the intertype relations.

    *Using Enneagram stacks to guess DCNH results in a distorted understanding of the ideas.

    Dominants - want to win and have control in relations, even intimate ones, they need a steady partner.

    Creatives - want to impress and be admired for their antiques, they need someone who'll entertain their chaos.

    Normalisers - want perfection and order, a stable environment that's in control, but can't get that control themselves so needs someone who'll do it.

    Harmonisers - want pleasure, harmony, to get along with others that are equally as considerate. They are most sensitive to the feelings of others, even logical types - which is surprising about DCNH. (They don't get along with Dominants or Normalisers as well)

  11. #91
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    yeah one way to look at is as the entire socion being essentially 4 people (alpha, beta, gamma, delta) within which theres 4 different gradients of aggression. if you take Trump to be a hyper-aggressive gamma it makes sense, but it feels so caricatured he's like the rich white version of the bum who hits me up for 50 cents in the grocery store parking lot and acts like he deserves it so much he's going to start a fight if I question his absolute right to my money. also he doesn't really want just 50 cents. in a certain sense there's this same SEE streak in donald, its just that he's managed to elevate himself from parking lots to the whitehouse, which is really quite amazing considering underneath it all he's still sort of a gibbering bum. it feels like that is not the essence of ethics, that "real" ethics wouldn't do such a thing, and then you realize there's no humanitarian impulse under it, rather its more about social control, and in that sense he could easily be seen as an ethical manipulator, just in its most base and superficial sense. to say he can't be SEE because ethics means more is probably a projection of beta/delta types on Trump. from the point of view of lacking humanity he seems to resemble SLE in his straightforward manifestations of psychopathy (social control being a somewhat unethical stance on ethics itself--pointing to a low Fi interpretation), but on the other hand he exhibits gamma values. so the question becomes is a SLE caricature of a gamma or is he really just a gamma. I think this actually hits on a primary schism in socionics where until we can really measure things people can only argue over it. I honestly think trump could be a SLE raised in the USA, on the other hand I could see him being SEE and that calling him SLE is just trying to not face up to the real gross side of gamma society as it really is. at the end of the day SLE raised in the USA or just a gross SEE actually mean the same thing. what Trump really represents is out of control Se and creative rationality scamming a nation who was looking for someone they could trust

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    It makes total sense now, we are just not using the same models so our diagnosis aren't even mutually intelligible.
    The difference is my model works in reality...it's knowledge. Your model breaks down when you factor in past elections Trump has been in and the fact he's been saying the same shit for years. If you put the VI template for Trump in SEE, then you have to put the template for SEE somewhere else. And then you have to put the VI grouping for that somewhere else and you eventually end up with a number of groupings that make no sense socionically. My breakdown comes out the most wisely measured without having to sacrifice either socionics cannon or visual/structural logic. Can your model do that? No! That's because your model doesn't function in reality....it's flawed. Socionics Britannica doesn't have a VI template for each Socionics type (nevermind a valid VI template) they can point to as a basis for its "knowledge". They're minor league.

    When you say "His people skills are weak since he's high in competitiveness and prefers to move against others" you are describing the the Dominant subtype, you are exactly describing the traits which make the subtype the least agreeable one. The "people skills" displayed there are strong, but they aren't "agreeable"; good-people-skills doesn't necessarily mean high agreeability, but if semantically it means so for you then I see where our differences of interpretation are.
    Fi still peeks out in these competitive SEE types. You must remember that Fi-creative is in the Ego Block. It's a prominent part of the SEE's cognition and makes said typing for Trump highly absurd. You're actually saying he's got Fi in his ego block.

    Ethics of emotions, is what Trump is doing to reconnect with his base; steering and manipulating emotions is the hallmark of high EQ, emotional intelligence is not always good. You interpret these observations differently but that there is just differences of models (you can pick and choose which you prefer).
    Trump didn't use ethics of emotion to reconnect with his base. He used force to connect with his base. There was no Fe or Fi involved in the drive to connect with the base...it's simply a tactical maneuver to win an election. Trump's victory comes down to the fact that the base wanted somebody like Trump this election cycle. That doesn't imply he's got high EQ. High EQ people are not so unnuanced and tonally deaf. Trump presents like a blunt instrument. He bludgeons people over the head like a billy club. That's not ethics of emotion.

    According to the energy model SEE have the creative function Fe/E, therefore such a model totally changes what is thought of an SEE as being thus all the intertype relations.

    *Using Enneagram stacks to guess DCNH results in a distorted understanding of the ideas.

    Dominants - want to win and have control in relations, even intimate ones, they need a steady partner.

    Creatives - want to impress and be admired for their antiques, they need someone who'll entertain their chaos.

    Normalisers - want perfection and order, a stable environment that's in control, but can't get that control themselves so needs someone who'll do it.

    Harmonisers - want pleasure, harmony, to get along with others that are equally as considerate. They are most sensitive to the feelings of others, even logical types - which is surprising about DCNH. (They don't get along with Dominants or Normalisers as well)
    both stacks and dcnh describe the same aspect of reality, so it's a perfect understanding. The overlap might not be a hundred percent but it's close enough that it's not worth using the two separately. your definitions are mixed up and I don't have the time nor motive to straighten it all out...."want to be admired for their antiques." Huh! that makes no sense....sounds incredibly arbitrary. let's just make designations for people that want to be admired for their cars, or their houses, or their pet giraffes. And "want to win and have control in relations" sounds like you're basing the definition on your preconception that Trump is a dominant subtype....so you can justify typing him as SEE, thereby putting the cart before horse and wreaking more havoc to Model A.
    Last edited by Kill4Me; 03-27-2018 at 06:24 AM.

  13. #93
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    You don't type Carl Jung. Carl Jung types YOU. FOREVER. WITH HIS EVERLASTING TYPOLOGIES>
    good bye

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangeling View Post
    You don't type Carl Jung. Carl Jung types YOU. FOREVER. WITH HIS EVERLASTING TYPOLOGIES>

  15. #95
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    To me he looks logical, and it's Ti. Seems like LII. Note that some NT types go crazy and get involved into strange stuff and make their imagination lead them which is when they make strange analogies, comparisons, and also in that old times mysticism and alchemy were popular too. I am not sure if this can be explained by socionics IEs because I've seen this in all types but in intuitives it's the most elaborate. He wasn't acting like scientist but more like a free spirit.
    This kind of behaviour makes people type him as ILI and IEI but working with imagination is not reserved to these two types and doesn't mean he's Ni lead, especially when his writings are purely technical I would say no to IEI. Being like free spirit can be true for both Ne and Ni ego types. Maybe even more likely for Ne types, because it involves exploring number of phenomena, but this can be true for all types.
    He doesn't VI as ILI, more like LII. He doesn't have any Ni features.
    Also the things which he was interested in doesn't say much about him. He was interested in these subjects because they were either popular at the time, or there wasn't much else available.
    I see all arguments for Ni very weak and not convincing.

  16. #96
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    Maybe Jung was a bit mental. Like slightly paranoid. I think that would explain a lot ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangeling View Post
    You don't type Carl Jung. Carl Jung types YOU.
    Only Jung can type Jung, Carl.
    And where we think he is wrong, - it's we are wrong as do not understand his transcendental truth.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  18. #98
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    good bye

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    Well, von Franz typed herself as introverted thinking intuitive (it is on YouTube) and in the same interview she mentioned that Jung was the same type. It is very hard to go against that statement just by acknowledging shared history between those people and their working history.
    Sol mb F type due to his inability to think alternatives.


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    But Troll Nr 007, socionics isn't Jungian type, so she can't know his socionics type.


    trololol.
    good bye

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    - You are still typing me?
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  22. #102
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    ILI, his descriptions of functions suggest Se Te Ni are favored towards Si and Ti that basically were useless in his eyes.

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    Carl Gustav Jung - INTP - Balzac


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    Ah, khcs is back.

    I love it.

  25. #105
    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    ILE ENTP-Ne

    THE VISIONARY FUTURIST per my archetypes list.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

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    Why ILI? I don't really see any explicit signs of Te creative.
    Nothing is so difficult as not deceiving oneself.

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    Why that guy gets so perplexed around Ni if he is supposed to be ILI or IEI?
    Sol mb F type due to his inability to think alternatives.


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    For typing purposes I recommend reading "The undiscovered Self". It's pretty normal language and non-technical stuff. Fairly easy to read if you can stand the concentrated Ti . I think it shows his LII:ness pretty well.

    People associate analysis of the unconscious with Ni. That's where the Ni typing comes from. It's like typing the "theme" of his work, instead of the man himself. Imo that's a mistake

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    Why that guy gets so perplexed around Ni if he is supposed to be ILI or IEI?
    How does Jung get perplexed around Ni? What do you think he is?
    Nothing is so difficult as not deceiving oneself.

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    I think he self-typed as Ti user but people type him INFJ? (MBTI)

    Personally, I think INFJ makes sense. He is very heavy on the symbolism, also could be Te-PoLR possibly on socionics, making him IEI. He has that...I don't know how to describe it...the 'fantastical' imagination i associate with Te PoLR. Absolutely anything is possible sort of feeling. I am very imaginative too, since the Ni is strong, but I am still more drawn towards something 'rational' than he was. He seems to just ignore Te...to me at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    How does Jung get perplexed around Ni? What do you think he is?
    LII because of Ni short circuiting his thoughts as other irrational elements might do it. I think it is quite universal reaction from them. When I hear that kind of stuff I think: LII. Therefore your are in my LII category pile.

    Sol mb F type due to his inability to think alternatives.


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    LII.

    IEIs are more ethereal, less Ti, someone like Hermann Hesse.

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    Spiritual greed para's Avatar
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    @Troll Nr 007
    You think i am LII as well?
    Nothing is so difficult as not deceiving oneself.

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    a two horned unicorn renegade Troll Nr 007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    @Troll Nr 007
    You think i am LII as well?
    Yep. I don't really see how would you react positively on Se but I can be quite wrong.
    Sol mb F type due to his inability to think alternatives.


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    nefnaf's Avatar
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    Didn't Jung report himself as LII? It is a pretty big stretch to believe he could invent this system of typology that reveals something fundamental about the human psyche, and yet mistake his own type. I would love to know how people assessing him as ILI or IEI can reconcile this

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