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Thread: On the effect of I/E shift on the taciturn and narrator cycles

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    Default On the effect of I/E shift on the taciturn and narrator cycles

    I just had one of those breaking-through-a-layer-of-the-matrix twilight-zone like experiences where a part of socionics that once seemed mysterious suddenly showed a comprehensible part of itself.

    Based on Gulenko's ideas of "crossed" function values across +/- (i.e. Delta and Alpha both value Te+ and Ti-, etc) I've always known that the following sequences of types were significant to the extent that Gulenko was right:

    ENFj-INTj-ESTj-ISFj-ENFj (taciturn, rational, negativist cycle or "temperament")
    INFp-ENTp-ISTp-ESFp-INFp (taciturn, irrational, positivist cycle or "temperament")
    ISTj-ESFj-INFj-ENTj-ISTj (narrator, rational, positivist cycle or "temperament")
    ESTp-ISFp-ENFp-INTp-ESTp (narrator, irrational, negativist cycle or "temperament")

    (there is still a slight possibility that rational and irrational should alternate in these sequences instead of i/e; but I tend to think J/P is the more structurally important trait of the two and therefore the stable one; the advantage of the other approach is that Focal/Diffuse would be held common in any function shared by adjacent types, for example INFp Ni and INTj Ne are both Focal)

    Not only do these sequences line up the types so as to make the types with common values adjacent to one another; they also lend a basis for the idea that the ID functions of a type are reversed in +/-. In other words, the ID Ni of an INTj is not the ENTj version of Ni, but the ENFj version. This gets rid of all kinds of annoying relativation problems along the lines of "if ID and Ego are the same anyway, why are INTj and ENTj different at all?" ; the NiTe this refers to is just a state in between of ENFj and ESTj, not anything involving ENTj.

    Where does the new breakthrough come in...

    Basically up to this point I have never had any inkling of how a transition from one type to another on this cycle "feels" or what I should look for in my experiences so as to register such a transition happening. Until now...

    Take a common function between two types on the cycle; we don't use i/e like we normally do, cause i/e is not common between shared functions of two adjacent types on the cycle. Instead, we use taciturn/narrator. This gives rise to the t/n functions (Tt, Tn, St, Sn, Ft, Fn, Nt, Nn). But let's take the shared Nt between ENFj and INTj...

    ENFj - i - Nt - e - INTj

    The introverted "side" of the function is always on the left, while the extroverted function is always on the right. I/e acts much the way +/- does on the regular temperament cycles.

    Now here's basically the idea: the starting state is the type on the left, and the transition is one towards the type on the right. During this transition, a mentality of inward contemplation changes to a mentality of outward activity.

    In very simple terms, this describes the process of getting more and more familiar with a topic until the point is reached where one is confident to bring expression to it in the outer world. +/- has been described in very similar terms in the past. This should be pretty easy to relate to a psychological event of some kind.

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    But wait till you see this...

    ISTj - e - Sn - i - ESFj

    The progression is opposite on the narrator cycles.

    In narrators there is something different going on; like their knowledge of certain isolated outer states makes them confident in a condensed "opinion" type of judgment.

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    This is all very interesting. Has this been improved upon?
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    Gulenko's blog entry of 22.10.2010.

    http://goul.socionics.kiev.ua/2010/1...li-nevyigodno/

    This question is not just interesting but also practically important. In real life it happens that a person is forced to work not in their stereotype environment, but contrary to their type or related. By which model of behavior should he/she navigate then?

    The answer is this. In the opposite type of environment it's favorable to act on the Adaptation(temperament??) equivalent unit (equivalent to the shift to "superego"). And in a related setting it's favorable to act on the dual temperament i.e. Semidual or Illusory offset should be preferred.

    For example, an INTj, once in a management setting, will be prone to decentralize and devolve/delegate authority the same way an ESTj would. But an INTp, by contrast, will develop authoritarianism, like ESTp would. An ENFj in a social environment, to gain a foothold there, will be prone to moralization, like ISFj would. But an ENFp will go towards accommodating, the same thing ISFp does.

    But why our offseted INTj doesn't act according to the temperament of identity, that is, like an ISTj or INFj? After all, it would seem justified by the fact that it is not necessary to change the balanced energy.

    Apparently, somehow the criterion of "Taciturn - Narrator" comes into play, nature whichof is as much energetic/energy related (??). I've talked about this more than once on several conferences of the International Socionics Institute. The fact is that if an INTj is to chose ISTj (or INFj) strategy he/she would have to switch on Taciturn/Narrator (as well as Negativism for Positivism), which is very energetically expensive.

    Of course, I haven't recklessly discarded the alternative hypothesis - an offset on a Benefit cycle, where "Taciturn-Narrator" would stay the same. In this case, an INTj in administrative setting would act ISTp-like, and in the humanitharian setting he/she would act INFp-like. However, what to do with Rationality/Irrationality? Even before it was known that this trait is highly correlated with compatibility at a close range, and so changing its polarity would be equivalent to the loss of recharge from the outside. My opinion is that such a shift, ie benefit ring offset, or supervision perhaps, is possible, but rather volatile/unstable and very difficult. And therefore, unjustified.

    As an example, I point attention towards growth of aluminum tycoon Oleg Deripaskiy. More about his psychological features can be learned from a documentary film by Alexei Pivovarov - "Capital ". Based on non-verbal cues and judgments of style, I've typed Deripaskiy as ISTj, the Inspector.

    By tracking his activities, we see a clear shift in the direction of ENTj. In other words, something unintelligible, (the Inspector has the makings of a dominant place as a successful entrepreneur. Thus is formed and then fastened one or the other subtype. Overcoming difficulties, some people are mitigated, while others are hardened. From the same type basis - completely different persons.)
    ---------------------------

    Interesting, wooohooo.
    Last edited by Trevor; 12-08-2014 at 09:07 PM.

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    i am 100% in alignment with Gulenko on this.

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    Consistent with my experience as well. I remember when my INTJ mom took an MBTI test and scored ESTJ. She immediately concluded that there was something wrong with how she was relating to her work, that a part of herself so important had been compromised by environmental pressures. But she does do the delegation thing decently well... although unlike an ESTJ, she ended up doing the lions share of the work herself, where an ESTJ would probably just restrict themselves to the management end.

    But Lab this is interesting, because you seem to be questioning model A itself at this point. However, I do resist making plans that specifically involve other people, unless they ask me for direction.

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    These taciturn narrator cycles work like a charm when it comes to people who are a mixed subtypes. aka balanced subtypes. The others? What about the others?

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    But wait till you see this...

    ISTj - e - Sn - i - ESFj

    The progression is opposite on the narrator cycles.

    In narrators there is something different going on; like their knowledge of certain isolated outer states makes them confident in a condensed "opinion" type of judgment.
    More of this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Analyst Trevor View Post
    These taciturn narrator cycles work like a charm when it comes to people who are a mixed subtypes. aka balanced subtypes.
    Agreed. I'm a believer. Took me a while though.
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    Yeah, it's good. Now that I've had time to observationally digest the matter, it seems to work perfectly.
    fatti non foste a viver come bruti ma per seguir virtute e canoscenza

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    So there's a claim of superficial type "change" happening depending on circumstances:
    For example, an INTj, once in a management setting, will be prone to decentralize and devolve/delegate authority the same way an ESTj would. But an INTp, by contrast, will develop authoritarianism, like ESTp would. An ENFj in a social environment, to gain a foothold there, will be prone to moralization, like ISFj would. But an ENFp will go towards accommodating, the same thing ISFp does.
    And relations within each cycle happen to be mirage, semi-dual, super-ego (with super-ego always being opposite each other in a cycle).

    From socionics masks article:

    Semi-dual
    This "mask" is associated with learning problems.

    Mirage
    This "mask" is associated with the problem of inner freedom: restraint, the inability to make an independent move, stress, escape from reality into a world of illusions. Internal stress accumulates in the person, which he does not know how to manage. As a consequence, he creates a tense atmosphere for others, withdraws into the world of illusions: computer communication, which replaces real life, or computer games, the feeling of being lost, disconnected from reality.

    Super-ego
    This "mask" is associated with the problem of survival. The person does not live freely, but "survives" and does what he "must", not comparing this with his strengths and abilities. No balance of work and rest necessary for recuperation.
    I didn't go through each pair to see how it matches, but at the first look it seems like the same thing might be the source of both. One interpretation might be more accurate still, of course, for example it might be that cycles are "closed", that is, only three of those masks ever happen, or that cycles only show the most popular masks while all are possible.

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    are those three relations the only ones capable of forming a "mask"? if so this could well be getting at the same phenomenon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labocat View Post
    are those three relations the only ones capable of forming a "mask"? if so this could well be getting at the same phenomenon.
    No, which is the point. If they are the only ones observable in practice, you & Gulenko, to an extent your views are presented here, have a better theory. If not, and under some circumstances other "masks" form, socionics masks explanation may work better.

    The question is how common each mask is, and what masks are possible. To be honest, when you mention that it might be I/E that's stable as opposed to P/J, but aren't sure, it sounds to me as if you were trying to form a theory that only allows one possibility while it isn't be obvious that there's one only. I am not saying it is the case, but there's always a possibility you might end up taking the most common case and even adjusting other evidence to fit it.

    This might also bind in with Smilingeyes' theory, somehow. I can't help but notice that the common point all three have is super-ego - while everyone has a different theory, "survival" opposite club act is something all of them embrace. That might suggest predicted masks of dual, activity and conflictor are either not very common or don't happen in reality.

    Smilexian behaviour tracker predicts Kindred and Business instead of Mirage and Semi-dual:

    Kindred
    This "mask" is associated with the problem of self-affirmation. At one time the person had not learned to assert himself as being worthwhile, had not mastered the techniques of strengthening his position among people, so now he has to act against his own type, breaking himself to "cover up" his weaknesses, he has to present himself to others and even to himself (and himself more than anyone) as if he were another person.

    Business
    This "mask" is associated with the problem of work: the feeling that one's workload prevents him from living a full life. Difficulties in organizing work, allocating priorities. Or the "mask" is related to the problem of a long job search.
    One thing that's clear is that "masks" descriptions are very poor. They would need to be improved, and perhaps descriptions and examples in this thread can contribute to it.

    Either way, looking at specific pairs might be a good place to start. Not to decide what is possible or impossible, but to observe if the particular "distortions" of sociotype correspond to specific relations in the first place.

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    One more thing. Masks theory is free of association to clubs/quadras/any specific type groups. It just links a problem with a relation to mask. What Gulenko & labcoat seem to do is go by clubs - i.e. non-ST type doing ST-like-stuff will adopt a mask of an ST type. In effect, INTj in the example puts on a Mirage mask, whereas INTp a Semi-dual mask. By smilexian theory, it should be a Kindred and Business mask, respectively. However, is there a link between different club context and how a problem is seen? For example, as far as NT types' reactions go, INTj and ENTj being leading T types might react to ST situation differently, perceiving it as a different "problem", and putting on the same relation mask as INTp or ENTp (leading N) would do in an NF context.

    The question of whether it's the only possible scenario remains crucial, still.

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    I'm pretty sure that article on masks and this article on Narrator/Taciturn are two separate theories. This one, at least, has to do with +/- of types which can be seen through the Model B. The latter just seems like a general purpose theory of accentuation.

    Aiss, are you familiar with the functions of: Tt, Tn, St, Sn, Ft, Fn, Nt, Nn ?
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    I'm stuck between :
    ENFj-INTj-ESTj-ISFj-ENFj (taciturn, rational, negativist cycle or "temperament")
    INFp-ENTp-ISTp-ESFp-INFp (taciturn, irrational, positivist cycle or "temperament")
    ISTj-ESFj-INFj-ENTj-ISTj (narrator, rational, positivist cycle or "temperament")
    ESTp-ISFp-ENFp-INTp-ESTp (narrator, irrational, negativist cycle or "temperament")
    And :
    ENFj-ESFp-ESTj-ENTp-ENFj (Process, Extravert, Taciturn cycle)
    ISTj-INTp-INFj-ISFp-ISTj (Process, Introvert, Narrator cycle)
    ESTp-ENTj-ENFp-ESFj-ESTp (Result, Extravert, Tactiturn cycle)
    INFp-ISFj-ISTp-INTj-INFp (Result, Introvert, Narrator cycle)
    There's no conclusive evidence to suggest either one over the other.
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    the second is just wrong. Rational/Irrational is a deep, structural trait. Extrovert/Introvert is just a superficiality. i will cease exchange with you if you ever raise this issue again.

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    Are you holding your knowledge hostage? haha

    It's Socionics, labocat. You might be taking it a little bit too seriously.

    My post is referencing type similarity / oscillations from this thread: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l-Type-Changes.


    I forgot to mention that. It has nothing to do with arguing the validity of the OP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Are you holding your knowledge hostage? haha

    It's Socionics, labocat. You might be taking it a little bit too seriously.

    My post is referencing type similarity / oscillations from this thread: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l-Type-Changes.


    I forgot to mention that. It has nothing to do with arguing the validity of the OP.
    ok, that's it. have fun figuring this out on your own.

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    LSE does not like delegating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Socionics PhD View Post
    Gulenko's blog entry of 22.10.2010.

    http://goul.socionics.kiev.ua/2010/1...li-nevyigodno/
    He elaborated:

    http://socioniko.net/ru/articles/thes02.html

    EDIT: Well it came before the blog entry, but still is an elaboration.
    Last edited by EyeSeeCold; 12-31-2011 at 10:56 PM.
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    quadra m, a-d, value 1-8 (a-d)!
    verg style: a / b, g / d, a / d, g / b -- narrator cycle, R1 => S2 => I1 => P2...
    rl style: a / g, b / d, a / d, b / d -- taciturn cycle, L1 => T2 => F1 => E2...
    style: inverse -- IJ => IP => EP => EJ => IJ2 => IP2...

    (verg style / ch(irn)! ) ~ (rl style / irn(ch)) =>
    verg style ~ ch(irn)! +, rl style ~ irn(ch) -, or (verg style / ch(irn)! ) ~ (rl style / irn(ch))...
    *product of quadra m, a-d => value 1-8 (a-d)!

    -
    irn1 ILE, EII, IEI, LIE (Nx1, (Fx1/Lx1)!)
    ch1 ESI, LSE, SLE, SEI (Nx2, (Fx2/Lx2)!)
    verg style
    ext/T ~ narr E(tact L)! => E ~ tact S(narr I)!/ext => ext/S ~ narr R(tact P)!...
    int/S ~ tact P(narr R)! => P ~ narr T(tact F)!/int => int/T ~ tact L(narr E)!...
    P--A--B--G--D-
    1--I--T---P--S-
    2--S--E---R--I-
    3--L--F---T--P-
    4--E--T---F--R-

    -
    irn2 SLE, ESI, SEI, LSE (Nx3, (Fx3/Lx3)!)
    ch2 LSI, ESE, SEE, SLI (Nx4, (Fx4/Lx4)!)
    rl style
    (ext/T)! ~ narr I(tact S) => E ~ (tact S(narr I)/ext)! => ext/S! ~ narr R(tact P)...
    (int/S)! ~ tact P(narr R) => P ~ (narr T(tact F)/int)! => int/T! ~ tact L(narr E)...
    P--A--B--G--D-
    1--L--E---T--R-
    2--E--T---F--P-
    3--I--L---R--S-
    4--S--T---P--I-

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    quadra m, a-d, value 1-8 (a-d)!
    verg style: a / b, g / d, a / d, g / b -- narrator cycle, R1 => S2 => I1 => P2...
    rl style: a / g, b / d, a / d, b / d -- taciturn cycle, L1 => T2 => F1 => E2...
    style: inverse -- IJ => IP => EP => EJ => IJ2 => IP2...

    (verg style / ch(irn)! ) ~ (rl style / irn(ch)) =>
    verg style ~ ch(irn)! +, rl style ~ irn(ch) -, or (verg style / ch(irn)! ) ~ (rl style / irn(ch))...
    *product of quadra m, a-d => value 1-8 (a-d)!

    -
    irn1 ILE, EII, IEI, LIE (Nx1, (Fx1/Lx1)!)
    ch1 ESI, LSE, SLE, SEI (Nx2, (Fx2/Lx2)!)
    verg style
    ext/T ~ narr E(tact L)! => E ~ tact S(narr I)!/ext => ext/S ~ narr R(tact P)!...
    int/S ~ tact P(narr R)! => P ~ narr T(tact F)!/int => int/T ~ tact L(narr E)!...
    P--A--B--G--D-
    1--I--T---P--S-
    2--S--E---R--I-
    3--L--F---T--P-
    4--E--T---F--R-

    -
    irn2 SLE, ESI, SEI, LSE (Nx3, (Fx3/Lx3)!)
    ch2 LSI, ESE, SEE, SLI (Nx4, (Fx4/Lx4)!)
    rl style
    (ext/T)! ~ narr I(tact S) => E ~ (tact S(narr I)/ext)! => ext/S! ~ narr R(tact P)...
    (int/S)! ~ tact P(narr R) => P ~ (narr T(tact F)/int)! => int/T! ~ tact L(narr E)...
    P--A--B--G--D-
    1--L--E---T--R-
    2--E--T---F--P-
    3--I--L---R--S-
    4--S--T---P--I-


    huh
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    it looks beautiful

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