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Thread: An American Institute of Socionics

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    Default An American Institute of Socionics

    The Russians have an institute of Socionics--an extensive one, from my understanding--in Kiev, Ukraine.

    In America, Socionics is still relatively obscure, and thus there's no "Institute." Progress takes place at this site, at Niffweeds site, and Ashton's site (not to mention other sites.) We're able make progress in understanding from these, for sure -- however, don't you think that deeper understanding could be achieved if an "institute"--a physical site where Socionists could discuss Socionics at lengt-- could help us all make greater leaps?

    An American Socionics Institute, I believe, would enable this community to study Socionics in a a formal (academic?) and more in-depth manner.

    What does everyone think of this idea?

    Ideally, we'd gather Socionists of different schools, so that we could arrive at as close to an agreement as possible.

    Please let me know what you think. ---Justin

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    For example, at a Socionics Institute, we could run intertype experiments... Type individuas and couples by consensus. Experientially understand the functions.

    Essentially, we could learn more about this subject that fascinates us all (well, at least some of us.)

    Can anyone think of some pros and cons?

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    Great idea!

    Now...

    Where would it be? and

    Who would fund it?
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    For example, at a Socionics Institute, we could run intertype experiments... Type individuas and couples by consensus.

    Essentially, we could learn more about this subject that fascinates us all (well, at least many of us.)

    Can anyone think of some pros and cons?

    I've been thinking that it might be the next step in (English-speaking) Socionics research.

    Any feedback would be appreciated.

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    We'd need a lot more professionals in the field, and a helluva lot more credibility than we currently have. Far as I can tell, Socionics in the West is basically... this. Amateurs duking it out in internet forums.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Justin, I am for the idea, but we really need to get rich before we can make this happen.
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    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    it would be just like this forum, except it would waste money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    it would be just like this forum, except it would waste money.
    but if the Russian never did it, you wouldn't have been here.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    ...except it would waste money.
    Tell that to the admins.

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    Well if the Russians did it, we should do it.

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    Like you said, Socionics is almost unheard of in the West. Even MBTI is only narrowly known about/discussed. Americans just don't care about personality theory and typology much, I think. Besides that, modern psychology is still relatively young and I wouldn't call it wholly.. *ahem*... "credible."But that is just my take on the matter.

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    For a bit of context, the Russians also had a project to domesticate foxes.

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    but if the Russian never did it, you wouldn't have been here.
    EXACTLY!!!

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    My advice might not be applicable to you, but here it is: a true institute would not attempt to "unify" anything, but either pick a school - if there's such thing - or take it from scratch with classical Socionics. The problem of Socionics today is not that it's not standardized, but not accurate enough. While that endeavor aims at creating an authority, I find it unfit in the current context - indeed there is the possibility to bait everyone under one flag with promises then eliminate the wrongdoers inside, but this is very risky because the choice is left to the ones on top to dictate the truth, while nothing guarantees their reasonableness.

    The answer to a simple question can reveal whether the aims of this future institute are authoritarian (power) or genuine research (truth): why won't it use its academic/scientific approach to determine the right school, instead it attempts to include all to "help" all in the name of science?
    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    Type individuas and couples by consensus.
    Certainly not. This is what you call scientific? I'd say this is a failure before even starting, although in the US things are a bit different, research is not usually separated from politics, business and entertainment, so I may be wrong.

    -- Bolt

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    Let's get Warren Buffet to donate.
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    I know they've had a socionics institute in Russia, but it's still surprising that one exists at all to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSee
    Let's get Warren Buffet to donate.


    I forgot he posts here.

    But if that falls through...

    Fundraiser Plan B: Girl Cookies!



    And if that falls through...

    Fundraiser Plan C: Beverage!


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    This could work too.

    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    it would be just like this forum, except it would waste money.
    Probably.


    I think the only way it could work effectively is if the more knowledgeable/respectable "Socionists" like Gulenko and Filiatova helped to oversee it's development and weed out potential charlatans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    I know they've had a socionics institute in Russia, but it's still surprising that one exists at all to me.
    I understand your surprise, but that's because of your understanding in "institute". I had the same reaction at first, and wanted to tell Juju that the Kiev institute is not one, but in fact its activity most likely satisfies the requirements for this title in that country. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiped...wiki/Institute

    The IIS is a non-governmental organization, I don't know under what laws they fall in UKR, but they're apparently independent and can claim that Santa Claus exists, without loosing the right to use such title, provided Santa is part of their field of research I suppose. Higher restrictions don't apply in most countries, and take for example the US-based IHR, which is very controversial for revising the official history, especially in politically-sensitive matters like Holocaust, but still a legitimate tax-deductible organization with such name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    Type individuas and couples by consensus.
    What is this consensus you speak of ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    We'd need a lot more professionals in the field, and a helluva lot more credibility than we currently have.
    I have all the certificates and diplomas needed to run such an Institute, no worries.

    Quote Originally Posted by 07490 View Post
    Justin, I am for the idea, but we really need to get rich before we can make this happen.
    Yea, we have to make tons of gold. I, for one am willing to share my pot of gold with you all. I'm setting an example here so others can share their gold with us.

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    it would be just like this forum, except it would waste money.
    Don't be so pessimistic, I'm here.

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    I think the only way it could work effectively is if the more knowledgeable/respectable "Socionists" like Gulenko and Filiatova helped to oversee it's development and weed out potential charlatans
    Well, that isn't exactly without trade-offs either. The whole point of an institute separate from the one in Russia is for it to lend a counterweight to the Russian one. To let them supervise the process defeats that purpose. It's not unlikely that their community has reigning dogmas and cemented thinking that badly need to be criticized from an informed outside perspective.

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    Can't we just copy what the russians already have found out, instead of reinventing the wheel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    I think the only way it could work effectively is if the more knowledgeable/respectable "Socionists" like Gulenko and Filiatova helped to oversee it's development and weed out potential charlatans
    "trustworthy sources only!!" nahhh


    i wouldn't be so concerned with that, i think anybody who is interested enough should/could participate, but realistically if the people involved are disagreeing more often than not, the discord would mean lack of productivity and possibly eventual failure of the organization.
    Last edited by glam; 01-26-2011 at 07:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    Probably.


    I think the only way it could work effectively is if the more knowledgeable/respectable "Socionists" like Gulenko and Filiatova helped to oversee it's development and weed out potential charlatans
    Meh, I believe some people on this forum might have an understanding of socionics more or less equal (if not better) to Gulenko and Filatova.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Meh, I believe some people on this forum might have an understanding of socionics more or less equal (if not better) to Gulenko and Filatova.
    And these people are ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parasite View Post
    I understand your surprise, but that's because of your understanding in "institute". I had the same reaction at first, and wanted to tell Juju that the Kiev institute is not one, but in fact its activity most likely satisfies the requirements for this title in that country. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiped...wiki/Institute

    The IIS is a non-governmental organization, I don't know under what laws they fall in UKR, but they're apparently independent and can claim that Santa Claus exists, without loosing the right to use such title, provided Santa is part of their field of research I suppose. Higher restrictions don't apply in most countries, and take for example the US-based IHR, which is very controversial for revising the official history, especially in politically-sensitive matters like Holocaust, but still a legitimate tax-deductible organization with such name.

    -- Bolt
    Huh that makes sense. It's still rather curious to me how all these people with plenty of doctorates have gathered together to produce several socionics related journals. I wonder where they get their funding for all this from. They must have some sort of insight into socionics we don't have or something.
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    You do realize that in a socionics institute only LIIs and ILEs would hold real power, don't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    Huh that makes sense. It's still rather curious to me how all these people with plenty of doctorates have gathered together to produce several socionics related journals. I wonder where they get their funding for all this from. They must have some sort of insight into socionics we don't have or something.
    Easy. They provide training for HR people. Moreover, they are psychologists in their own right. Psychologists make decent money. They receive money from students who enroll in their courses.

    The professional relationship with esoterists may also have something to do with it.

    Oh, and a socionics-organized military command structure is highly efficient. It's not for nothing that the war in Iraq didn't turn around until an ILE took command.

    But you don't need to worry. Awareness of socionics is growing and rest assured, the fracas that consumed the last century will not trouble this new era of psychological knowledge growth.

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    This would be a good idea, and it would help socionics to break it free from the whole, uh, online forum scene. But socionics needs to develop more theoretical coherence before something like this happens. Because with socionics theory in the state it's in right now, any serious attempt to raise funds for something like this would probably come across more as a massive scam than a legitimate scientific venture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    You do realize that in a socionics institute only LIIs and ILEs would hold real power, don't you?
    Power brokers are Decisive almost by default. If from this actually arose a think tank, the ringleaders would probably be nerdy Betas.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Power brokers are Decisive almost by default. If from this actually arose a think tank, the ringleaders would probably be nerdy Betas.
    Socionics was designed from the start to create a more Alpha SF world. Good luck with that.

    I don't see how betas could lead when when it comes down to it, no one takes a ENFJ's word over an INTJ's over theoretical matters.

    I do see a role for ISTJ and ESTP in socionics, but beta ST absorbs alpha NT input... they rarely contest it.

    Of course I see gamma NTs in it too, so long as Alpha NT is permitted the last word.

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    If you can't see the use of each type then i suggest your either retarted or just fucking kidding yourself. However since I don't think the former is true, get off your high horse.

    Niffweed has a site?
    Post it. Is it socionics workshop?

    juju doesnt have to have any real position of power, none of us should let him co-opt his way to some steve jobs owner/CEO position of a thing he wants to be a collaboration.

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    I see gamma NTs in it too, so long as Alpha NT is permitted the last word.
    I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    You do realize that in a socionics institute only LIIs and ILEs would hold real power, don't you?
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Socionics was designed from the start to create a more Alpha SF world. Good luck with that.

    I don't see how betas could lead when when it comes down to it, no one takes a ENFJ's word over an INTJ's over theoretical matters.

    I do see a role for ISTJ and ESTP in socionics, but beta ST absorbs alpha NT input... they rarely contest it.

    Of course I see gamma NTs in it too, so long as Alpha NT is permitted the last word.
    It's foolish to get heated over conceptual planning, but this is just plain ignorant. Socionics is more than self-indulgent theorizing. The only way you could claim that other types would have lesser importance than Alpha NTs as part of an institution, is to focus solely on the analytical abstractions that serve no practical progress.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    If you can't see the use of each type then i suggest your either retarted or just fucking kidding yourself. However since I don't think the former is true, get off your high horse.
    No, I don't think he's totally joking, based on his history. But what I acknowledge and you don't is that tcaud is Beta (IEI). This *partially* explains his natural inclination towards partisan utopia - in its broader sense.

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    Things like this are a lot easier to do in Russia and Ukraine than in the U.S. In the former USSR intellectual life is concentrated in big, compact cities, travel is inexpensive, people can attend evening events more easily, and it's possible to find places to meet for very little money. For instance, anyone can start up a yoga group and agree with a local kindergarden to have yoga classes in their activity hall for $20 a time. Then you collect $5 per person and make a profit of $20-100 per yoga lesson.

    The operating costs of the socionics institute in Kiev are low. Actually, they have no physical location, but have a few ongoing activities that meet at certain places. The charge to participants is quite low (like, $10 for the conference and donations accepted for the monthly club meetings). The main ongoing activities of the institute are publishing a couple journals and providing consulting services.

    The institute has been losing its significance in recent years, due in part to the rise of Internet usage. Now, there are more online communities and loose professional associations that are not particularly institutionalized. I think this is how socionics will develop in the West. If all "professional" dialogue is online anyway, there is no pressing need to form an institute. It's a nice idea, but communication among socionists will occur without it. The need for some kind of professional association will only arise when there are at least a handful of people who are actually doing socionics for a living.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    The need for some kind of professional association will only arise when there are at least a handful of people who are actually doing socionics for a living.
    Yea.

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