+/- functions

[jason_m]

I think that this is a concept that has a lot of accuracy and maybe potential for further development.

Consider the following descriptions from socionics.org:

"White" intuition, "intuition of time" :

(+) Future changes, prediction, evolution, the dynamics of change, the flow of time, imagination, subtle step-by-step changes (the leading function of Balzac).

(-) Past errors, avoidance of danger, anxiety, a vague anxiety of the future, the maturing of crisis, a leap in time, the ability to guard against trouble, noticing abrupt changes, the moment of decisive action (the leading function of "Eisenin").


I'm going to take this further and give a specific comparison of different types of Critics (ILIs) so you can better see what I'm getting at.

For the purposes of illustration, consider Stanley Kubrick's use of functions versus Ben Stein's:

Kubrick:

(+) "Understanding change, prediction, evolution, understanding the flow of time, imagination, noticing subtle changes."

- An imaginative form of Ni that put these notions of evolution and futurism on display in film, instead of hiding them or guarding against them (+Ni - emphasis on the positive).

(-): "Useless, unprofitable, wear, costly, risky, chaotic action."

- In his films, Kubrick warns us about the risk in going too far in business and political issues. His use of Te is therefore conservative and implicit

(-): shabbily dressed, unkempt.

Kubrick was known for being unkept and not having good manners.

(-): Sour, sour, sour, bitter, and sour.

- Kubrick is known as one who is "uncongenial," but at close distances, a good friend.

Stein:

(-) "Accounting for past errors, avoidance of danger, anxiety, understanding how crisis develops, the ability to guard against trouble, abrupt changes, contradictions, decisive action, disagreement."

- A conservative political advisor whose job demands critical and judicious use of predicting how events turn out. Because his use of this function is more conservative and implicit, it is therefore less noticeable.

(+) "Use, benefit, cost, technology, facts, acquisition, stockpiling, sales, savings, practicality."

- His emphasis on Te is very liberal (i.e., unfettered). However, it is used more as a creative function (i.e., used to understand business and political issues instead of control them). This combination is displayed on his appearances on "Win Ben Stein's Money." On this show, he challenges contestants with his unbridled knowledge of factual information. This task involves both liberal use of Te, but is simply more "talk" than a way of life (i.e., a creative function).

(~): Reasonably well-kept, calm, etc.

- Stein is usually well-dressed and has fair social graces when he is in the public spotlight.

(~): detached, deadpan, disinterested, unengaged, stoic, monotone.

- Stein is often portrayed in movies and TV shows as having a deadpan facial expression and monotone speaking voice, as opposed to being "bitter" or "sour."

I also suspect that these characteristics can be mixed:

Carl Jung: +Ni, -Te, ~Si, ~Fe (Imaginative (+Ni), but calm (~Fe)).

John Nash ("A Beautiful Mind"): -Ni, +Te, -Si, -Fe ("Rational" (-Ni), but hostile and unkempt (-Fe)).

You can even consider the differences amongst some of the members of this forum:

Cone, Polikujm: +Ni, ~Fe.
Niffweed: +Ni, -Fe.
Jarno: -Ni, ~Fe.

.................................................. .................................................. ....

(I know that some Ti egos would be interested in this, so I will post the different manifestations of Ti as well.)

"White" logic, "structural" logic:

(+) Specificity, detail, thoroughness, rigor, hierarchies, laws, regulations, instructions, choosing the best option, organizational logic (the first function of "Maxim Gorky").

(-) Abstractness, generality, flexibility, systemization, classifications, typologies, general laws, objectivity, truth, justice, analysis, science, criteria. (the first function of "Robespierre")...

jason_m.

[Aleksei]

Anything about ? Incidentally, where can I find more info on this model?

From the descriptions I identify with -Ti, -Ni, and -Fe to a lesser extent.

[jason_m]

I developed the combinations on my own. The functions +/- are in Russian or can be translated through Google. The site is www.socionics.org. Check under "Fundamentals of Socionics" for "Mental Functions."

[Aleksei]

For everyone else's benefit:

Symbolic description of the functions

The analysis conducted Gulenko, reveals a "fine" structure of the mental functions of a single species. Thus, "black ethics" Hamlet is somewhat different from similar features Hugo. This difference he identified with + and - signs. Below is a "transcript" of these differences (which function for which "answers"):

1. "Black" ethics, emotions:

(+) Positive emotions - joy, happiness, emotional lift, encouragement, laughter, enthusiasm, optimism, good humor, the experience of happiness (in the first place this function at Hugo's)

(-) Negative emotions - grief, sorrow, sadness, emotional recession, depression, crying, tears, frustration, pessimism, bad mood, the experience of adversity. (In the first place, this function Hamlet)

2. "White" ethics, respect:

(+) A good relationship - love, friendship, affection, attraction, warmth of relationship, sociability, close psychological distance, kindness, compassion, (in the first place this function in Dostoevsky)

(-) Bad relationship - hatred, animosity, antipathy, repulsion, alienation, unsociable, far psychological distance, evil, cruelty. (In the first place this function in Dreiser)

3. "Black" logic, business:

(+) Use, benefit, cost, technology, facts, acquisition, stockpiling, sale, savings, bringing order, practicality, (in the first place this function in Shtirlitsa)

(-) Useless, unprofitable, use, application, wear, cost, expense, risk, experiment, selling, trading, action in the chaos, creativity. (In the first place this function at the Jack London)

4. "White" logic, the logic of relations:

(+) Specificity, detail, detailed study, the thoroughness, rigor, in the hierarchy, laws, regulations, instructions, choosing the best option, the logic of the organization (in the first place this function in Maxim)

(-) Abstractness, generality, flexibility, system, classification, typology, general laws, objectivity, truth, justice, analysis, logic of science, criteria. (In the first place, this function of Robespierre)

5. "Black" hunch, intuition opportunities:

(+) Run, the positive potential, the essence of the essence, principles, new ideas, of hypotheses, theory, insight, interest, originality, unusual, fantastic, faith, (in the first place this function in Don Quixote)

(-), Hopelessness, alternatively, a negative potential, the absence of fact, the absurdity, paradox, forgotten old, dullness, mediocrity, repressed possibilities, disbelief, a sensation. (In the first place this function in Huxley)

6. "White" intuition, the intuition of time:

(+) A future change in the situation over time, prediction, prediction, evolution, evolution, planned ascent, the dynamics of change, a temporary stream, imagination, consistency, subtle changes - a step by step, convergence, convergence, (in the first place, this function Balzac)

(-) Past accounting errors, avoidance of danger, anxiety, a vague anxiety, the maturing of the crisis, a revolution, a leap in time, the ability to guard against trouble, abrupt changes, contradictions, the moment of decisive action, disagreement, divergence. (In the first place this function in Esenina)

7. "Black" sensory, volitional:

(+) - Retention of power, insubordination, defense, defense, counterattack, counterattack, hardness, and defend their interests, resolute pressure from the bottom up, will-power, possession, (in the first place, this function of Napoleon)

(-) To seize power, subjection, assault, aggression, attack, initiative, persistence, insistence, resolute pressure from the top down, assertion of its interests at the expense of others, to overthrow, weakness, apathy, mastering. (In the first place this function in beetles)

8. "White" sensory, sensory sensation.

(+) Pleasant, comfort, comfort, harmony, beauty, attraction, recreation, health, relaxation, wellbeing, enjoyment, pleasure, sensitivity, (in the first place this function with Dumas)

(-) Discomfort, discomfort, discomfort, disharmony, ugliness, unattractive, fatigue, stress, illness, poor health, suffering and pain. (In the first place, this function Gabena)

EDIT: +Se for me.

[Aleksei]

Crispy: +Te -Ni
Ashton: -Si -Te
Director Abbie: +Ti +Se
CloudCuckooLander: -Ni -Fe
Laghlagh: +Fe +Ni
Gulanzon: +Si +Fe

[ashlesha]

the plusses and minuses don't describe anything new. its just a shorthand way of describing the elements in conjunction with what they're blocked with. for example, "+Fi" is another way of saying "delta Fi" and "-Fi" is another way of saying "gamma Fi."

so that said, the correlations here are kinda amusing...aleksei, i dont think you're SEE. and crispy is cool but i don't think he's LSE. and i am sure as hell not ESE.

edit: wait, do you type crispy LIE, ashton SLI, etc?

edit 2: i think i might have +Fe and -Fe mixed up and +Fe might be beta Fe...i'm seeing different things in different sources. anyway, point still stands.

[Crispy]

Lulz these are the base functions of all 16 types. Good job misunderstanding the theory as usual. (Aleksei)
Symbolic description of the functions


1. "Black" ethics, emotions:

(ESFj) Positive emotions - joy, happiness, emotional lift, encouragement, laughter, enthusiasm, optimism, good humor, the experience of happiness (in the first place this function at Hugo's)

(ENFj) Negative emotions - grief, sorrow, sadness, emotional recession, depression, crying, tears, frustration, pessimism, bad mood, the experience of adversity. (In the first place, this function Hamlet)

2. "White" ethics, respect:

(INFj) A good relationship - love, friendship, affection, attraction, warmth of relationship, sociability, close psychological distance, kindness, compassion, (in the first place this function in Dostoevsky)

(ISFj) Bad relationship - hatred, animosity, antipathy, repulsion, alienation, unsociable, far psychological distance, evil, cruelty. (In the first place this function in Dreiser)

3. "Black" logic, business:

(ESTj) Use, benefit, cost, technology, facts, acquisition, stockpiling, sale, savings, bringing order, practicality, (in the first place this function in Shtirlitsa)

(ENTj) Useless, unprofitable, use, application, wear, cost, expense, risk, experiment, selling, trading, action in the chaos, creativity. (In the first place this function at the Jack London)

4. "White" logic, the logic of relations:

(ISTj) Specificity, detail, detailed study, the thoroughness, rigor, in the hierarchy, laws, regulations, instructions, choosing the best option, the logic of the organization (in the first place this function in Maxim)

(INTj) Abstractness, generality, flexibility, system, classification, typology, general laws, objectivity, truth, justice, analysis, logic of science, criteria. (In the first place, this function of Robespierre)

5. "Black" hunch, intuition opportunities:

(ENTp) Run, the positive potential, the essence of the essence, principles, new ideas, of hypotheses, theory, insight, interest, originality, unusual, fantastic, faith, (in the first place this function in Don Quixote)

(ENFp), Hopelessness, alternatively, a negative potential, the absence of fact, the absurdity, paradox, forgotten old, dullness, mediocrity, repressed possibilities, disbelief, a sensation. (In the first place this function in Huxley)

6. "White" intuition, the intuition of time:

(INTp) A future change in the situation over time, prediction, prediction, evolution, evolution, planned ascent, the dynamics of change, a temporary stream, imagination, consistency, subtle changes - a step by step, convergence, convergence, (in the first place, this function Balzac)

(INFp) Past accounting errors, avoidance of danger, anxiety, a vague anxiety, the maturing of the crisis, a revolution, a leap in time, the ability to guard against trouble, abrupt changes, contradictions, the moment of decisive action, disagreement, divergence. (In the first place this function in Esenina)

7. "Black" sensory, volitional:

(ESFp) - Retention of power, insubordination, defense, defense, counterattack, counterattack, hardness, and defend their interests, resolute pressure from the bottom up, will-power, possession, (in the first place, this function of Napoleon)

(ESTp) To seize power, subjection, assault, aggression, attack, initiative, persistence, insistence, resolute pressure from the top down, assertion of its interests at the expense of others, to overthrow, weakness, apathy, mastering. (In the first place this function in beetles)

8. "White" sensory, sensory sensation.

(ISFp) Pleasant, comfort, comfort, harmony, beauty, attraction, recreation, health, relaxation, wellbeing, enjoyment, pleasure, sensitivity, (in the first place this function with Dumas)

(ISTp) Discomfort, discomfort, discomfort, disharmony, ugliness, unattractive, fatigue, stress, illness, poor health, suffering and pain. (In the first place, this function Gabena)

EDIT: +Se for me.

Holy shit at this point I think you really could be ESFp.

[Park]

(ISTp) Discomfort, discomfort, discomfort

Nice. Who's the parroting retard that wrote that? Babelfish?

[Krig the Viking]

I developed the combinations on my own. The functions +/- are in Russian or can be translated through Google. The site is www.socionics.org. Check under "Fundamentals of Socionics" for "Mental Functions."

Strangely, the "+" and "-" assignments in that article don't match Gulenko's assignments here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...t=minus+diablo

In Gulenko's article, the Democratic Rational functions are all "-" and the Irrationals "+", while the Aristocratic Rational functions are all "+" and the Irrationals "-". The socionics.org article deviates from this by saying that ESE has +Fe and EIE has -Fe. Everything else seems to match up though -- anyone know what's up with that?

Anyway, to clarify, jason_m, are you proposing that Gamma Ni can be either +Ni or -Ni? Or in general that any function in any Quadra can be either "+" or "-"? If so, what lead you to this conclusion? I just want to understand your reasoning.

[Polly Parrot]

Nice. Who's the parroting retard that wrote that? Babelfish?

Babelfish Squawk!

[jughead]

Its easy for me to pick from these what my mind primarily does and its - or -
The creative function is harder and it vaciliates between and . The plus and minus is harder to tell with those. I also think i use -Fi.
Its strange to think some people feel more pain and some feel more pleasure(as a conscious function. +-Si.

The discrepancies that exist can be explained by: nationality, culture, wealth, genetics and individuals overall strength and upbrining and there current job. Or it could be your right and that peoples genes exist as a continuum of these traits and the binary structure is not correct. Lets start breeding people. Kidding. Sorta.

[Hitta]

-Ti(Alpha/Delta): Analytical Logic, reductionism, logic of breaking information down, root seeking

+Ti(Beta/Gamma): Practical logic, accepting and using information systems, common sense, logic of consistency, idealized reasoning

-Te(Beta/Gamma): Logical confidence, accepting logical uncertainty, actions without logical strain, truth certain

+Te(Alpha/Delta): Logical uncertainty, results always feel incomplete, neurotic/obsessive compulsion via inability to complete truth, slowly achieving truth after discovering new phenomenon

-Fi(Beta/Gamma): Idealism, dissatisfaction, seeking idealized form, constant notice of how something doesn't meet idealized expectation

+Fi(Alpha/Delta): Universalism, accepting, lack of an opinion, inclusive, tendency to accept the discarded

-Fe(Alpha/Delta): Blunt, no borders communication, neutral communication,(depending on the person can breed sarcasm), attempt to treat everything the same

+Fe(Beta/Gamma): Cultural chameleon, adaptation to social registry, social behavior attempts to mimic idealized form

[Hitta]

^ why does +Fe (Beta/Gamma) get a smile while the others don't?

because i switched the colon and the parenthesis on accident

[jason_m]

Anyway, to clarify, jason_m, are you proposing that Gamma Ni can be either +Ni or -Ni? Or in general that any function in any Quadra can be either "+" or "-"? If so, what lead you to this conclusion? I just want to understand your reasoning.

Excellent questions.

Yes, I am proposing that Gamma Ni can be either of the above, and that any function in any Quadra can be "+" or "-". My hypothesis is that a "+" leading function must be combined with a "-" creative function and vice versa.

The reasoning is difficult to explain. I'll give you a few of my observations that were used to develop this conclusion:

1) Some LIIs on this forum have a more methodical, method-based reasoning style, and a lot of the LII descriptions display this characteristic. On the other hand, others do not. I have a hard time identifying with +Ti but -Ti fits perfectly. This theory seems to be a good explanation of all of this.

2) ILIs stick out for me. I've noticed big discrepancies with their use of functions. For instance, I have an ILI friend who is very critical and "sour", but gives very "sober" predictions of outcomes, instead of something fanciful, in comparison to, say, Stanley Kubrick. Also, unlike Kubrick, he's more practically minded and runs a business, as opposed to being in the arts. The +/- descriptions give some explanation as to why they are the same "type" but use their functions differently.

3) I tried applying the formula to friends and family. Once again, I notice that certain relations that are the same on paper, but differ in the way the functions are manifested can be explained by my theory. For instance, my IEE brother is very enterprising and loves finding a new video game, job, girlfriend, etc. - looking for brighter prospects in the future (+Ne), but can be more sober-minded when it comes to morals, family, etc. (-Fi). On the other hand, my father is very compassionate, humanistic, and kind-hearted in a "deep," heartfelt way, and seems to fit better with (+Fi). His enterprising characteristics aren't as liberal or strong. If I apply this to different cases, I get consistent results, although there are exceptions.

4) Socionics seems to work in such a way that a pattern that holds in a finite number of select cases, holds throughout the entire personality spectrum. For instance, semi-duality does not just hold between EIEs and LIIs, but between SLIs and ILEs, between LSIs and ESEs, and between any two personality types fitting that pattern. This applies to virtually any concept in this system, and so I assumed that it applies here.

Anyway, a counter-argument could be that I've just rediscovered the various subtypes of each type. What I would say is that, in the very least, these functions should be looked into as the information metabolism of the subtypes. In other words, not only do different subtypes focus on different functions, but they might use them differently as well, and the above explains how.

Jason

[jason_m]

Lulz these are the base functions of all 16 types. Good job misunderstanding the theory as usual.

This is not supposed to be a verification of what is explained by other socionists in order for the forum to come to a clearer understanding of socionics.

I'm presenting a new way that these functions can manifest themselves that goes a little bit beyond what is proposed by that site. That is, that either positive or negative functions can be the leading functions of any type that has the function in leading position.

The prediction is that this could help clarify some different manifestations of the functions for the same type or just simply explain the differences in information metabolism for leading and creative subtypes.

[Aleksei]

Lulz these are the base functions of all 16 types. Good job misunderstanding the theory as usual. (Aleksei)

*COUGH*lulzTetard*COUGH*

[Aleksei]

wait, do you type crispy LIE, ashton SLI, etc?

Yes.

edit 2: i think i might have +Fe and -Fe mixed up and +Fe might be beta Fe...i'm seeing different things in different sources.

Negative emotionality is a far more Beta theme than Alpha, so -Fe is likely Beta. I think Jason's proposition that the +/- functions can modify any type seems good though.

[Crispy]

This is not supposed to be a verification of what is explained by other socionists in order for the forum to come to a clearer understanding of socionics.

I'm presenting a new way that these functions can manifest themselves that goes a little bit beyond what is proposed by that site. That is, that either positive or negative functions can be the leading functions of any type that has the function in leading position.

The prediction is that this could help clarify some different manifestations of the functions for the same type or just simply explain the differences in information metabolism for leading and creative subtypes.

My quote was in reference to Aleksei's misuse of the socionics.org table. As for your +/- switching in the same type theory, there is another who did this in the "MBTI and Socionics" book. Although a lot of the books contents are questionable, he used a 16 subtype system that included +/- switches for each type. -Ti base LII's were referred to as Analytical and +Ti base LII's were referred to as Systematic. The catch is being -Ti base automatically made you +Ne creative as well (according to the author) and if +Ti then -Ne and so on. It seems helpful, but I have yet to find an LII who relates to +Ti > -Ti so who knows.

[jason_m]

My quote was in reference to Aleksei's misuse of the socionics.org table. As for your +/- switching in the same type theory, there is another who did this in the "MBTI and Socionics" book. Although a lot of the books contents are questionable, he used a 16 subtype system that included +/- switches for each type. -Ti base LII's were referred to as Analytical and +Ti base LII's were referred to as Systematic. The catch is being -Ti base automatically made you +Ne creative as well (according to the author) and if +Ti then -Ne and so on. It seems helpful, but I have yet to find an LII who relates to +Ti > -Ti so who knows.

Ahh! Sorry, my mistake.

Jason

[Nexus]

In Gulenko's article, the Democratic Rational functions are all "-" and the Irrationals "+", while the Aristocratic Rational functions are all "+" and the Irrationals "-".

that would make '+ = process' and '- = result'

meaning + = process

[Hitta]

+Ne (Alpha and Beta): Esotericism, creativity as focus, relativism, revolution, originality, understanding the cycle of change, infinite possibilites

-Ne (Gamma and Delta); Normalcy, static principles, absolutism, unity

+Ni (Gamma and Delta): Merging with society, small perception of self, large perception of whole, values societies standards over self, loss of ego, destabilized identity, service

-Ni (Alpha and Beta): Values self over society, rise above, higher mind, solipsism leaning, perception as reality

+Se (Gamma and Delta): Willpower, confidence, service, loyalty, no steering from path

-Se (Alpha and Beta): Aggression, attack, change, overhaul, liberalism(not political terms)

+Si (Alpha and Beta): Enjoyment of the unique qualities of things, experimentalism, adventure seeking

-Si (Gamma and Delta): Contentment, reluctance to change flow, homeostasis, balance, stability

[Krig the Viking]

Excellent questions.

Yes, I am proposing that Gamma Ni can be either of the above, and that any function in any Quadra can be "+" or "-". My hypothesis is that a "+" leading function must be combined with a "-" creative function and vice versa.

The reasoning is difficult to explain. I'll give you a few of my observations that were used to develop this conclusion:

1) Some LIIs on this forum have a more methodical, method-based reasoning style, and a lot of the LII descriptions display this characteristic. On the other hand, others do not. I have a hard time identifying with +Ti but -Ti fits perfectly. This theory seems to be a good explanation of all of this.

2) ILIs stick out for me. I've noticed big discrepancies with their use of functions. For instance, I have an ILI friend who is very critical and "sour", but gives very "sober" predictions of outcomes, instead of something fanciful, in comparison to, say, Stanley Kubrick. Also, unlike Kubrick, he's more practically minded and runs a business, as opposed to being in the arts. The +/- descriptions give some explanation as to why they are the same "type" but use their functions differently.

3) I tried applying the formula to friends and family. Once again, I notice that certain relations that are the same on paper, but differ in the way the functions are manifested can be explained by my theory. For instance, my IEE brother is very enterprising and loves finding a new video game, job, girlfriend, etc. - looking for brighter prospects in the future (+Ne), but can be more sober-minded when it comes to morals, family, etc. (-Fi). On the other hand, my father is very compassionate, humanistic, and kind-hearted in a "deep," heartfelt way, and seems to fit better with (+Fi). His enterprising characteristics aren't as liberal or strong. If I apply this to different cases, I get consistent results, although there are exceptions.

4) Socionics seems to work in such a way that a pattern that holds in a finite number of select cases, holds throughout the entire personality spectrum. For instance, semi-duality does not just hold between EIEs and LIIs, but between SLIs and ILEs, between LSIs and ESEs, and between any two personality types fitting that pattern. This applies to virtually any concept in this system, and so I assumed that it applies here.

Anyway, a counter-argument could be that I've just rediscovered the various subtypes of each type. What I would say is that, in the very least, these functions should be looked into as the information metabolism of the subtypes. In other words, not only do different subtypes focus on different functions, but they might use them differently as well, and the above explains how.

Jason

I can't seem to find it anymore, but I vaguely remember someone mentioning something about a version of Gulenko's Energy Type subtype system where the strong/weak elements of the subtype are always the same as the base type, just modified by +/-, so an LII couldn't have an ESE energy type, but would instead have a +Te-Ni energy type, instead of the usual -Te+Ni that an actual LIE energy type would be.

At least, that's how I remember it. I was unable to find any further information on the idea. It's a fascinating idea, and I can see how it could have merit. You've sparked my curiosity; I'll have to look into it further.

that would make '+ = process' and '- = result'

meaning + = process

I hadn't noticed that before; interesting.

[Addendum: actually, that would only be true of the Leading function; the Creative function would be the reverse of that, e.g. LIE has +Ni, but is a Result type.]

[Airman]

Sehr gut Topik.

[tcaudilllg]

I disagree. The alternate quadra form of the base function has as its tool the PoLR... I'm sorry but the alternate quadra form is nowhere near as independent as the main form. However you could argue that the alternate form represents a social identity which is enabled by the development of the main identity, but this would only be true from a producing standpoint, I think, not an accepting standpoint.

[jason_m]

Addendum:

The key to wrapping your head around this idea is that + functions are generally explicit in the way they operate - specific words are used to describe things, behaviours are more overt, and ideas involving it are spelled out more fully. Whereas - functions are just the opposite.

For instance, a + type places a lot of emphasis on in the way they talk and act. They might be part of a poetry group. They might portray temporal or lyrical elements in their speech or career, such as placing direct emphasis on being unique, and talking a lot about their forecasts and premonitions. A - type might constantly be aware of such information and even search it out, but they don't make as much of a point of living the lifestyle and making others as aware of the information (about, as mentioned, time and universal subjective ideas) as a + type; in this sense + is more explicit, while - is more implicit in the way it displays the function. (And, as I think I suggested before, explicit use might be related to creative and accepting subtypes of a particular type.)