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Thread: Another Consensus Thread

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Default Another Consensus Thread

    Everybody post your definitions of the IMs, go! Feel free to follow the format I have established or make your own.


    ---

    In order of the ones I know best:

    Ni

    Description: Tracing things forwards and backwards on temporal and causal lines (as well as lines of necessity, as in x is necessary for y, and lines of logical priority, etc). Working with limited information through "emergence": Ni uses the pieces of evidence at hand to imply a whole larger than the evidence available, e.g., Bones constructing a narrative of a crime from three or four pieces of evidence, looking at an engine, an exhaust pipe, some wheels, and a steering wheel and guessing what a car is like.

    Personal Experience: I experience Ni as narrative-constructing most frequently: seeing a few things that happened and coming up with a narrative relating them all which is temporal in nature. I also tend to view things in terms of their formal aspects; what I mean by that is, I view my brown chair as: brown, chair, sitting-object, furniture, made-of-wood, held-together-by-screws, university property, etc.

    Aspectonics: Internal Dynamics of Fields. Ni is concerned with implicit or invisible aspects of a situation (in the case below, the abstracted properties of the car parts, rather than the physical parts themselves), and how they change in relation to one another over time: how would an engine interact with an exhaust pipe, and how would that relation change when you mix in the wheels, oh, and then I guess that explains where the steering wheel comes in... or, to provide a more "real life" example: you have x amount of dollars of subprime mortgage loans. You then have forces a and b acting on the market. And you have Bank m with its set of properties. How will these three interact over time? Or how did they interact over time in order to create the subprime housing crisis?


    Ti


    Description: Essential (i.e., unchanging) connections between things established by explicit (e.g., reproducible) means. Truths contained in the mind of the individual rather than in the world at large (introverted), but arrived at through means that are available to everyone and clearly defined (explicit). Discovering contradictions between two propositions. E.g., It was stated that engine of the car cannot start itself. Therefore, there must be some source of power external to the engine in order to achieve the objective of motion.

    Personal Experience: I experience Ti as a dividing function, especially in exposing contradictions and finding really deductive reasoning. I usually encounter it in an intellectual arena. Lots of concern with whether a new idea or claim or event fits with the established standard or not; things that do not fit with the established standard will be considered "stupid" until such time as they are proven to be derivable from a higher principle.

    E.g., Principle 1 states that it is unwise to marry an ugly woman (this principle has been derived from experience and observation). However Principle 2 states that if one's girlfriend is pregnant, one must make an offer of marriage. An individual marrying an unattractive woman would be ridiculed, until it is revealed that Principle 2 (which supersedes Principle 1 for reasons the Ti-ego would have difficulty articulating to you) is in effect.

    I also experience Ti a lot from my dad. I can see how he has developed principles and rules over time that tell him how to do the various aspects of his work, such as "always save an editing file every five minutes" or something like that. The relationship between work and saving is such that it is important to save frequently. This rule has been tested through Se experience: when I follow the rule, I achieve my goal; when I do not follow the rule, I do not achieve my goal.

    Aspectonics: External statics of fields. Concerned with unchanging relationships that are relatively more explicit in nature. Developing theories as to the properties of the relationships between objects. When paired with an extroverted perceiving function (as in all Ti-egos), Ti will create hypothetical rules, which they will then test according to the EP function (either by imagining alternative scenarios and questioning their likelihood, or by seeing if the rule helps achieve their goal in the real world).


    Fe


    Description: Diagnosing and manipulating the intangible motion that occurs in everything from corporations to friendships to individuals. Unlike Te, not concerned with the explicit factors (such as the rules of subprime loans, or the financial state of a corporation, how much money it had lent out, etc.) but with the invisible factors (were people focusing their energy on themselves; were they thinking about the impact of their actions on others; when you mentioned mortgages, were they attentive and thoughtful or dismissive and unthinking?) that influence a situation. And as an EJ function, the information content is as much "how can I affect the implicit motion of this situation" as "what is the implicit motion of this situation."

    Pragmatically, the active and habitual manipulation of the emotions of a person, a room, a company (as in motivational speaking and many forms of corporate training designed to change the "community atmosphere"). In trying to convince someone of something, the mode of convincing is far more important than the logical or even ethical argument at hand (pathos, rather than logos or ethos). E.g., "black momma face": angry black women communicate with their children through an emotional energy rather than any real logical argument or even the consequences; the consequence is the emotional whatever.

    In a broad-based sense, large-scale historical movements can be seen in terms of Fe, insofar as a change in the zeitgeist is a change in the implicit aspects of an object (i.e., a state, or the world as a whole). "The Times They Are A-Changing" can be seen as an Fe statement: it's not any one specific thing or even a set of different things; there's just a different spirit about the place (also can be read in terms of Fi, but more on that later).

    Personal Experience: I experience Fe as knowledge about how to comport myself in a situation, essentially. How can the implicit signals I send out affect the implicit properties of this atmosphere? I'm depressed; is that making everyone else depressed? I'm happy; are others happy alongside me? Also, subtle changes: when you bring up a certain movie, does it get a positive reaction (note-to-self, bring up movie again). When you start talking about 90s music, who engages in the conversation and who stops caring? What will reengage the people who stopped caring? It's almost like sight, really: it's like I can see spots and pockets of where the energy is high and where the energy is low, and how that changes over time, like a 3D graph of internal state draped over the crowd.

    Aspectonics: Internal dynamics of objects. How implicit aspects of a situation change. Internal motion. Not much more to say.


    Fi


    Fi: A set of principles and rules for the relations between objects, but which is internally derived. It has no fear of contradiction (although it usually functions according to an internal logic that cannot be made explicit). Experienced as a "feeling" about something, fundamentally whether it is right or wrong, okay or not-okay, good or bad, etc. Not judged based on an external metric such as "will this help me achieve my goal?" Judged on an internal metric: how does this fit with me?

    Fi would look at the subprime loan situation and just see "BAD" written all over it, but not necessarily have the logical principles to elucidate why it's bad, why it contradicts some central principle (my SLE friend, on the other hand, has an number of central principles the subprime situation contradicts). It could be a look given by a CEO that sets off the internal alarm, or it could be a fact about the situation (if the Fi-ego has enough training in the area to be able to interpret the facts reasonably well).

    The fundamental assumptions we make as a society, taboos, etc., are associated with Fi. Fi is the ur-knowledge, the judgments that we do not question or even notice ourselves making. Much like Ni is the lens through which we view things, Fi is the first test we apply to judge good or bad, whether we value it or not. It is always an Fi judgment when we are revolted by incest. We may come back and add SeTi reasons: it prevents us from achieving the goal of having healthy children, but the initial revulsion reaction was Fi in nature. A good example of Fi-based societal change is the view of homosexuality. Whereas homosexuality once evoked a primal, instinctual "ew" reaction from people, now the stronger "ew" reaction is against those who persecute homosexuals.

    Personal Experience: I experience Fi as a system of feelings about various topics that I can't quite figure out. It leads me to tread lightly, because I do not understand what exactly is right and what exactly is wrong. And yet, everyone else understands it, or so it seems. Granted, in a broad sense I understand the rules, and I can generally be diplomatic enough to dance over landmines, but from a conceptual standpoint it is irritating because I cannot figure out how it works.

    I see Fi in others in an assertion of rights, of how-I-am-to-be-treated, focusing on this aspect where I would prefer to just say "x is wrong, y is right; punish x, reward y" or "x is helping us get to the goal; y is not helping us get to the goal; get rid of y, keep x" without the messiness of personal rights and how-I-am-to-be-treated. On the positive side, Fi seems to lead Fi-egos, for reasons unknown, to a genuine level of concern for others, especially those close to them... that is more self-effacing than I am accustomed to.

    Fi would also notice Zeitgeist change, but it would not be the times they are a-changing, but my-experience-of-the-times-is-changing. In situation y, I used to feel x; now in the same situation, I feel z instead. Something has changed.

    Aspectonics: Internal statics of fields. Much like Ti, it's a series of rules for how things work, but these rules are not explicitly derivable from any experience (although they are surely rooted in experience and knowledge). They are just known. As such, they are more effectively applied to situations which are themselves implicit and ineffable, such as "what makes a good relationship" or "what is a healthy working environment for a company" or "what sort of care do infants need in order to grow up well" or anything really, where the decision cannot be made deductively alone. The question "how then shall we live," while it can certainly be answered in a Ti fashion ("well, given psalm 32:5, and Mark 11:22, the reasonable deduction seems to be..."), it will always have an Fi base of fundamentally considering something more right or more wrong for reasons we cannot derive from first principles but just know (moral intuition).


    Alright, that's all for now kiddoes. I think I have relevant things to say about Te and maybe Se, but I'm pretty clueless when it comes to Si and Ne (ESPECIALLY Si). So yeah, everybody, post your definitions/commentary on each IM, and then try to leave at least one comment on somebody else's description saying one thing you really agree with and one thing you really disagree with, so we can sort of see what aspects are controversial and what aspects there's a broad base of support for.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    It would take way too much work to write down everything I think about the IEs, so I'll just give the contracted, undetailed form.


    Se (External Object Statics):
    Explicit, concrete objects in the world seen as content which imply a context for their existence.

    Si (External Field Statics):
    Physical world being seen as playing field/context in which concepts perceived by Ne are seen as physically manifested.

    Ne (Internal Object Statics):
    Perception of the world as being abstracted from itself. Objects retained as forms and ideas that are given meaning by the explicit context in which they exist.

    Ni (Internal Field Dynamics):
    Conceptually realized context by which grounded, explicit objects as perceived by Se are given meaning.


    Fe (Internal Object Dynamics):
    Implicit, internal objectivities viewed as capable of being abstracted from the self and completely observable by 3rd party viewers. The object's meaning comes from an external source of analysis.

    Fi (Internal Field Statics)
    Subjectivities unable to be abstracted from the self and are only completely intelligible by the specific self in which it inhabits. Means of analysis from within the self, implicit meaning for explicit phenomena.

    Te (External Object Dynamics):
    Explicit, external objectivities seen as observable from all 3rd parties, given meaning only via a means of internalized, subjective analysis.

    Ti (External Field Statics)
    Means of external reasoning/analysis that is determined by and inseparable from the self. Explicit meaning applied to implicit phenomena.
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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Te - External Dynamics of Objects - Contextualization
    Fe - Internal Dynamics of Objects - Allocation
    Ti - External Statics of Fields - Objectivism
    Fi - Internal Statics of Fields - Humanism
    Ne - Internal Statics of Objects - Abstraction
    Se - External Statics of Objects - Concretion
    Si - External Dynamics of Fields - Sensational consciousness
    Ni - Internal Dynamics of Fields - Metaphysical consciousness
    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

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    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Description: Tracing things forwards and backwards on temporal and causal lines (as well as lines of necessity, as in x is necessary for y, and lines of logical priority, etc). Working with limited information through "emergence": Ni uses the pieces of evidence at hand to imply a whole larger than the evidence available, e.g., Bones constructing a narrative of a crime from three or four pieces of evidence, looking at an engine, an exhaust pipe, some wheels, and a steering wheel and guessing what a car is like.
    This example also uses IMO.

    Very good description!

    I'm going to describe them as they manifest in Model A, not just as pure information.

    : Organization, structure, and pattern. Capability to notice whether something is out of place based on past pattern recognition. Construction of definitions and logical arguments based on "pure logic" and derivation from a small set of givens. Recognition of contradictions and consistency. Understanding or creating roles for people or things.

    : Recognition of potential, novelty, and alternate perspectives. Ability to see someone's abilities or prospects. Ideas and plans for the future. Constantly coming up with alternative possibilities. Optimizing, wanting to fully develop potential. Curiosity. Seeing or imagining what's "behind the scenes". Juxtaposition, often for humorous effect. Openness to new experiences and people.

    : Judgment based on personal feelings and morals. I like this, I dislike that. Repulsion and attraction. Affinity, attitudes. Feelings of sweetness, gratitude, valuing, and attachment. Partiality. Not being offensive or violating accepted morals.

    : Assertion of will; effort; ability to discern and manipulate power relations. Concern with politics, societal status, commanding attention and authority. Achievement of goals and desires. Acquisition of assets (sometimes material, sometimes not). Establishing territory or ownership. Assessment of physical appearance based on impact.

    : Emotions, passions, and thoughts, and the expression thereof. Understanding and being in touch with one's feelings. Socializing; entertaining or impressing people. Understanding appropriate ways to interact or express oneself in a given situation. Wanting to influence others' emotions and minds. Inspiring and praising.

    : Being comfortable - not just physically, but emotionally and mentally. Creating an environment where everyone's needs are met; dynamically responding to needs of living things. Stimulation of the senses; aesthetic appreciation. Enjoyment of physical sensations like food, warmth, etc. Leisure activities such as games and sports. Dislike of conflict and strain. Tendency towards conservatism. Being "normal", using simple language.

    : Being productive, efficient, and practical. Technical processes; use of technology and tools; troubleshooting. Finding efficient or effective ways of doing things. Expertise; specialized knowledge. Recognition of (in)competency and usefulness. (Re)collection of empirical evidence; reference to public sources of information, statistics. The value of working for a living.

    : Predicting and forecasting. Recognizing possible consequences of actions. A resulting tentativeness. Imagining how scenarios might play out. Construction of identity and personal meaning. What is my purpose, what am I working towards? Seeing how something or someone develops over time. History, both personal and societal.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Internal Statics of Objects - Abstraction
    The greater dimensional concepts formed by the collective substance of sensational consciousness. The puzzle of pieces or the painting of strokes. Inherent content. Suspended reconstruction of the sensational world. Composition. Conceptual abilities and potential energy due to physical makeup. Instantaneous travel. Novelty. Being on the verge. Alternative realities. Inner substance. Ego perceives the world through a static representation of sensational reality. Base practically exists on the verge of newness as it continuously sees new ways that the world can potentially be rearranged for the sake of recreation. People, situations and objects are seen for their inner ability to be, not as they are. Creative opens another dimension in which the sensational world can be rearranged to fit the ideal version under the Leading function; manipulation and recreation of what has been experienced through the senses into something not yet experienced but what can be.

    External Statics of Fields - Objectivism
    Identifying the reality that exists from the Self; the properties of the universe that are true regardless of human perspective. The laws and truths of reality in and of itself. Principles according to previous conduct. Logical progression. Objective relations. Hierarchal systems of parts to a whole. Laws due to inherent properties. Dissection, classification and categorization of properties into potential oblivion. Holons and Holarchy. Base understands the world through a static representation spatial distance, properties, systems, hierarchies, relations, categories and methodical thought. Base strives to identify the logical interconnectedness of everything relating to the person, this is a means of identification and serves as the principles by which one lives. Creative is a tool which can be used to identify and manipulate systems, classifications, relationships, spatial distance and logical connectedness in the name of the Leading function.
    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    The fundamental assumptions we make as a society, taboos, etc., are associated with Fi. Fi is the ur-knowledge, the judgments that we do not question or even notice ourselves making. Much like Ni is the lens through which we view things, Fi is the first test we apply to judge good or bad, whether we value it or not. It is always an Fi judgment when we are revolted by incest. We may come back and add SeTi reasons: it prevents us from achieving the goal of having healthy children, but the initial revulsion reaction was Fi in nature. A good example of Fi-based societal change is the view of homosexuality. Whereas homosexuality once evoked a primal, instinctual "ew" reaction from people, now the stronger "ew" reaction is against those who persecute homosexuals.
    It seems a bit of stretch to say that societal and cultural taboos are solely the product of Fi. If anything it's more just the result of human beings being irrationally superstitious and fearful of the world around them, something any type can be. Ti valuers are just as easily capable of making those sorts judgments too, they simply find that meaning in a more explicit context; I'm sure that even Fi PoLRs can be revolted by incest.

    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Personal Experience: I experience Fi as a system of feelings about various topics that I can't quite figure out. It leads me to tread lightly, because I do not understand what exactly is right and what exactly is wrong. And yet, everyone else understands it, or so it seems. Granted, in a broad sense I understand the rules, and I can generally be diplomatic enough to dance over landmines, but from a conceptual standpoint it is irritating because I cannot figure out how it works.
    This is a pretty good description. It's the same sort of way that Fi/Te valuers view Ti: they can't really tell exactly what the implied logic of something is until they unintentionally step on it somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Fi would also notice Zeitgeist change, but it would not be the times they are a-changing, but my-experience-of-the-times-is-changing. In situation y, I used to feel x; now in the same situation, I feel z instead. Something has changed.
    This is definitely something I've experienced personally, a lot of the time actually. I think those sorts of feelings change can never truly be replicated simply due to the fact that no two situations are ever exactly the same. Minuscule external situations carve the situation in very small ways which never lead to the exact same feeling. Fi takes the entire conglomerate of whatever situation it's in, with all of the little changes and details, and compiles it into one continuous web that takes into account all of these little bumps and happenstances. Since no two situations are ever going to be exactly the same, the feeling is always going to be slightly different in some way. This is why it's very difficult for Fi valuers to recreate feelings, because that requires and understanding of not only what those exact situations were that caused the feeling, but also of how to make that situation again.
    Last edited by Galen; 01-24-2011 at 05:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton2 View Post
    Obviously one can endlessly improve on IE definitions, but this is what I came up with atm. (btw@silverchris, I think the zeitgeist stuff you were mentioning is more -relevant rather than anything Fx).

    : Empirical causality, operational mechanics, etiology, epistemology, objectifiable evidence, measurement, the scientific method, heuristics, apparent trends, bottom-up systems.

    : Structural coherence, deductive inference, colligation, casuistry, abduction, formal logic, axiomatization, codification, rules and laws, frameworks, top-down systems.

    : Contextual parameters, perspectival tensors, abstract properties, atomistic modularization of ideas, reductionism, redefinition, recursive permutations, infinite regressions.

    : Experiential qualia, phenomenal properties, cynosural indices, discrete gestalts, scalar awareness, 'the here and now', absolute threshold, magnitude, impact, emphasis, impulse.

    : Emotive induction, interpersonal mechanics, causality of mood dynamics and emotional operance, involution of indirect effector cascades, awareness of their implicit trajectories, ricochet, reverbation, recoil, etc. (ugh, Fe is weird).

    : Affectional ideals, passional logic, personalized views born of qualitative feeling impressions, internally felt self-resonance that derives a sense of inner principle and regulates valence towards others.

    : Physical homeostasis, immergence between self and tangible environs, equilibrium of comfortable concrete conditions and maintenance of pleasant sensation, contextual orientation rooted in the ostensive world.

    : Stochastic apperception, intangible emergent processes and archetypal flux patterns, spontaneous order and holistic implications, homeorhetic attractor points, acceptance of uncertainty, irreducibility, incompleteness.
    Flesch Reading Ease: 9.23 (below 30 is college graduate level)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen
    It seems a bit of stretch to say that societal and cultural taboos are solely the product of Fi. If anything it's more just the result of human beings being irrationally superstitious and fearful of the world around them, something any type can be. Ti valuers are just as easily capable of making those sorts judgments too, they simply find that meaning in a more explicit context; I'm sure that even Fi PoLRs can be revolted by incest.
    It's not Fi per se, but Fi types are more likely to place importance on using etiquette, taboos, etc. as instruments that demonstrate their attitude towards other people. Whereas I think some Fe types will break taboos and throw them in your face for the sake of a reaction. A lot of this probably has to do with background, too, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton2 View Post
    No.
    What's your thinking here besides the fact that you've self-typed Fi/Te and presumably don't place much importance on etiquette/taboos?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton2 View Post
    Obviously one can endlessly improve on IE definitions, but this is what I came up with atm. (btw@silverchris, I think the zeitgeist stuff you were mentioning is more -relevant rather than anything Fx).

    Yes, I am obviously making up terms here like 'perspectival tensors' and 'discrete gestalts', and so forth. These are just ways to describe what the IE processes seem to be like.

    : Empirical causality, operational mechanics, etiology, epistemology, objectifiable evidence, measurement, the scientific method, heuristics, apparent trends, bottom-up systems.

    : Structural coherence, deductive inference, colligation, casuistry, abduction, formal logic, axiomatization, codification, rules and laws, frameworks, top-down systems.

    : Contextual parameters, perspectival tensors, abstract properties, atomistic modularization of ideas, reductionism, redefinition, recursive permutations, infinite regressions.

    : Experiential qualia, phenomenal properties, cynosural indices, discrete gestalts, scalar awareness, 'the here and now', absolute threshold, magnitude, impact, emphasis, impulse.

    : Emotive induction, interpersonal mechanics, causality of mood dynamics and emotional operance, involution of indirect effector cascades, awareness of their implicit trajectories, ricochet, reverbation, recoil, etc. (ugh, Fe is weird).

    : Affectional ideals, passional logic, personalized views born of qualitative feeling impressions, internally felt self-resonance that derives a sense of inner principle and regulates valence towards things/others.

    : Physical homeostasis, immergence between self and tangible environs, equilibrium of comfortable concrete conditions and maintenance of pleasant sensation, contextual orientation rooted in the ostensive world.

    : Stochastic apperception, intangible emergent processes and archetypal flux patterns, spontaneous order and holistic implications, homeorhetic attractor points, acceptance of uncertainty, irreducibility, incompleteness.
    How and why do you know all these abstruse words?

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Se (External Object Statics):
    Explicit, concrete objects in the world seen as content which imply a context for their existence.

    Si (External Field Statics):
    Physical world being seen as playing field/context in which concepts perceived by Ne are seen as physically manifested.

    Ne (Internal Object Statics):
    Perception of the world as being abstracted from itself. Objects retained as forms and ideas that are given meaning by the explicit context in which they exist.

    Ni (Internal Field Dynamics):
    Conceptually realized context by which grounded, explicit objects as perceived by Se are given meaning.


    Fe (Internal Object Dynamics):
    Implicit, internal objectivities viewed as capable of being abstracted from the self and completely observable by 3rd party viewers. The object's meaning comes from an external source of analysis.

    Fi (Internal Field Statics)
    Subjectivities unable to be abstracted from the self and are only completely intelligible by the specific self in which it inhabits. Means of analysis from within the self, implicit meaning for explicit phenomena.

    Te (External Object Dynamics):
    Explicit, external objectivities seen as observable from all 3rd parties, given meaning only via a means of internalized, subjective analysis.

    Ti (External Field Statics)
    Means of external reasoning/analysis that is determined by and inseparable from the self. Explicit meaning applied to implicit phenomena.
    So:

    Ne-abstract content
    Si-concrete context
    Ni-abstract context
    Se-concrete content

    Makes sense to me, I suppose. My next question would be how this all works. I can't tell whether I personally agree or disagree, but this is a nice organizing system.

    Also, with Ti, how do you account for the fact that Ti-egos often see their conclusions as applying to the world outside the self, concretely? I really like your Fi description though, perhaps I can incorporate that into my own thoughts on the matter (so we move closer to consensus perhaps?)
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    This example also uses IMO.
    Yeah, that's what I've heard from people before. Any thoughts on how to refine it so the difference is clearer. Alternatively, how do you find Ne doing some of the things I described there?

    Very good description!
    Thanks!

    I'm going to describe them as they manifest in Model A, not just as pure information.

    : Organization, structure, and pattern. Capability to notice whether something is out of place based on past pattern recognition. Construction of definitions and logical arguments based on "pure logic" and derivation from a small set of givens. Recognition of contradictions and consistency. Understanding or creating roles for people or things.

    : Recognition of potential, novelty, and alternate perspectives. Ability to see someone's abilities or prospects. Ideas and plans for the future. Constantly coming up with alternative possibilities. Optimizing, wanting to fully develop potential. Curiosity. Seeing or imagining what's "behind the scenes". Juxtaposition, often for humorous effect. Openness to new experiences and people.

    : Judgment based on personal feelings and morals. I like this, I dislike that. Repulsion and attraction. Affinity, attitudes. Feelings of sweetness, gratitude, valuing, and attachment. Partiality. Not being offensive or violating accepted morals.

    : Assertion of will; effort; ability to discern and manipulate power relations. Concern with politics, societal status, commanding attention and authority. Achievement of goals and desires. Acquisition of assets (sometimes material, sometimes not). Establishing territory or ownership. Assessment of physical appearance based on impact.

    : Emotions, passions, and thoughts, and the expression thereof. Understanding and being in touch with one's feelings. Socializing; entertaining or impressing people. Understanding appropriate ways to interact or express oneself in a given situation. Wanting to influence others' emotions and minds. Inspiring and praising.

    : Being comfortable - not just physically, but emotionally and mentally. Creating an environment where everyone's needs are met; dynamically responding to needs of living things. Stimulation of the senses; aesthetic appreciation. Enjoyment of physical sensations like food, warmth, etc. Leisure activities such as games and sports. Dislike of conflict and strain. Tendency towards conservatism. Being "normal", using simple language.

    : Being productive, efficient, and practical. Technical processes; use of technology and tools; troubleshooting. Finding efficient or effective ways of doing things. Expertise; specialized knowledge. Recognition of (in)competency and usefulness. (Re)collection of empirical evidence; reference to public sources of information, statistics. The value of working for a living.

    : Predicting and forecasting. Recognizing possible consequences of actions. A resulting tentativeness. Imagining how scenarios might play out. Construction of identity and personal meaning. What is my purpose, what am I working towards? Seeing how something or someone develops over time. History, both personal and societal.
    These are all the accepted manifestations of functions, certainly... but I think that people have been trying to move away from definitions like these, because they can really gum up the works when it comes to typing (which is why I at least aimed towards descriptions that are closer to "pure information" as you said). I mean, just because I'm emotional does that mean I'm an Fe-ego? I certainly have like/dislike reactions; am I an Fi-ego? I certainly think these are "common behavioral manifestations" of each function, but I worry about the inaccuracies they introduce into the system.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    This is definitely something I've experienced personally, a lot of the time actually. I think those sorts of feelings change can never truly be replicated simply due to the fact that no two situations are ever exactly the same. Minuscule external situations carve the situation in very small ways which never lead to the exact same feeling. Fi takes the entire conglomerate of whatever situation it's in, with all of the little changes and details, and compiles it into one continuous web that takes into account all of these little bumps and happenstances. Since no two situations are ever going to be exactly the same, the feeling is always going to be slightly different in some way. This is why it's very difficult for Fi valuers to recreate feelings, because that requires and understanding of not only what those exact situations were that caused the feeling, but also of how to make that situation again.
    Oh, I really like that. That is really helpful. It introduces an interesting paradox in Fi. Fi is statics of fields: a certain set of conditions always implies a certain reaction. But, Fi is more "fine grain" than Ti (because it is implicit), so--especially when paired with Ne--it recognizes more differences between situations. So the set of conditions is never the same, so the reaction is never the same. But IF the exact same set of conditions occurred (internal as well as external) it would produce the same reaction. That just never happens, because too many invisible, implicit, un-noticeable factors go into how an Fi-valuer feels about something.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    These are all the accepted manifestations of functions, certainly... but I think that people have been trying to move away from definitions like these, because they can really gum up the works when it comes to typing (which is why I at least aimed towards descriptions that are closer to "pure information" as you said). I mean, just because I'm emotional does that mean I'm an Fe-ego? I certainly have like/dislike reactions; am I an Fi-ego? I certainly think these are "common behavioral manifestations" of each function, but I worry about the inaccuracies they introduce into the system.
    stfu lol

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    You guys don't understand consensus. Consensus isn't something you publicly announce. It shows itself in the arguments people make, the ideas they accept and integrate. These ideas, are talking points; they do not make for persuasive arguments.

    You guys really should work with me, so that you can actually contribute to the advancement of socionics knowledge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    stfu lol
    ?
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Concensus changes here. I know for one the current forum concensus, even not in agreement, consists as a variant from some more traditional sources, and some more internalized understandings of Socionics are being born due to the fact that many times we're disinterested in how our terms are being applied to actual instance and workability, and through this mental concentration and detachment we can explore potential ideas. Comments given about stereotypes or agreement upon specific definitions, which depend upon the individual, are being based around a personal definiteness, which is a usual problem of typology--the 16 types not encompassing most people in its specificity. The real consensus we have now imo is closely tied to old interpretations of the types, and the further one travels in explaining the mental significance and underlying essence of the information elements at this stage will be an attempt at distancing yourself from most Socionics enthusiasts, as there are a number of personalized thoughts that have little significance to most people understanding and applying Socionics. We do already have a good basis for explanation of the types and information elements, most of the needed and basic information was already filled in for us, such as in the descriptions from knowledgable Socionicists, and hopefully more good books will be published in English to aid exact translations. Like always we need to see where we can go with this material, and perhaps there eventually will be a significant change as to how the information elements are defined and understood, as right now there is already enough basic material as to keep most people certain about how the system works, using some already predetermined and studied stereotypes. These are what Socionics was founded upon, so at this point if you feel there is something better developing in relationship exploration than Socionics, its safe to say that it is quite different from how Socionics is explained now, and will probably yield many new terms and descriptions. I'm no psychologist, but I feel like most attempts at bettering Socionics are some form of circular thinking in a construct of division. So let me know when there's a new better typology out there, and not just detached thoughts in their prematurity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    : Being comfortable - not just physically, but emotionally and mentally. Creating an environment where everyone's needs are met; dynamically responding to needs of living things. Stimulation of the senses; aesthetic appreciation. Enjoyment of physical sensations like food, warmth, etc. Leisure activities such as games and sports. Dislike of conflict and strain. Tendency towards conservatism. Being "normal", using simple language.


    I have mixed feelings about the bolded though. What did you mean? In some ways I can see it fitting, in others not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Concensus changes here. I know for one the current forum concensus, even not in agreement, consists as a variant from some more traditional sources, and some more internalized understandings of Socionics are being born due to the fact that many times we're disinterested in how our terms are being applied to actual instance and workability, and through this mental concentration and detachment we can explore potential ideas. Comments given about stereotypes or agreement upon specific definitions, which depend upon the individual, are being based around a personal definiteness, which is a usual problem of typology--the 16 types not encompassing most people in its specificity. The real consensus we have now imo is closely tied to old interpretations of the types, and the further one travels in explaining the mental significance and underlying essence of the information elements at this stage will be an attempt at distancing yourself from most Socionics enthusiasts, as there are a number of personalized thoughts that have little significance to most people understanding and applying Socionics. We do already have a good basis for explanation of the types and information elements, most of the needed and basic information was already filled in for us, such as in the descriptions from knowledgable Socionicists, and hopefully more good books will be published in English to aid exact translations. Like always we need to see where we can go with this material, and perhaps there eventually will be a significant change as to how the information elements are defined and understood, as right now there is already enough basic material as to keep most people certain about how the system works, using some already predetermined and studied stereotypes. These are what Socionics was founded upon, so at this point if you feel there is something better developing in relationship exploration than Socionics, its safe to say that it is quite different from how Socionics is explained now, and will probably yield many new terms and descriptions. I'm no psychologist, but I feel like most attempts at bettering Socionics are some form of circular thinking in a construct of division. So let me know when there's a new better typology out there, and not just detached thoughts in their prematurity.
    I didn't read this all, but I think some of the things you mentioned at the beginning could be alleviated by making the distinction between classical socionics and non-classical socionics and also by making the dinstinctions between fine points and basic claims.

    A lot of where things break down into more personalized understandings are at the fine points, at these points new ideas are put into the theory to better understand it and you get further away from clasical socionics.

    When things are kept to basic claims, you're essentially at classical socionics.

    The 8 functions, the 8 positions in Model A, intertype relations, and type descriptions are mostly what classical socionics is concerned with.

    Once you start interpreting what this all means and making up subtype theories, then you introduce some fine points and things get un-classical.

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    One post about your gay comment before I react to everything else you said:

    I don't think people have an 'ew reaction' when people persecute against homosexuals. I think you just think that because you spend so much time on a message board with a very annoying loud-mouthed gay man that rants about gay rights. (lol)

    I just don't buy that. If that was really the case, I wouldn't be motivated to rant about it like I do. I think, at best, people (I mean people as a whole) are ambivalent about the issue. Nobody is truly disgusted when fags get beat up/discriminated. More like they just don't care/they secretly agree with some of the homophobic stuff, but they've seen will & grace so they're 'not as bad.' And sexuality is very touchy for most people anyway. It naturally shames us, that's why we all wear clothes. Chances are most people are gonna think that 'it will all blow over if people stop talking about sex, anyway.'

    The media projected that 'we should all be nicer to homosexuals' thing, but it doesn't necessarily mean people in society have really followed it. You yourself only think that because you consume a lot of media. But when I get out in the real world, it's just different. I know a lot of stories where I'm still discriminated for being gay. (and trust me, I don't do anything to 'bring it on myself' and I'm not even the one that brings it up)

    It's sort of like. it the tv tells you to do something enough, you kinda think you should do it so it's mass mind control. But I don't think that people have had a sweeping acceptance level of homosexual love/tolerance. I just can't feel that. I've seen too many things in 'real life' that show me people still disapprove of gays/at best are ambivalent towards them. True, a few people do support gays but they're in the minority, so they're outnumbered, so they think 'what's the point of saying anything' and they get naturally demoralized. But it's naturally patronizing sort of. I'm sure a lot of people think 'Can't faggots just defend themselves, we all have to be tough in this life and take care of ourselves!!!!'

    Anyways I just think you're biased because you spend a lot of time in gay-friendly communities. Objectively, the whole world still hates faggots. I don't mean that to be a 'downer.' It's just the truth. I'm just being factual. (so nobody say I'm being too emo fag like. I actually don't care if most people hate me, as long as a few people love me I'm fine. I'm sorry if some can't handle the truth just because I'm not sugarcoating anything.)
    Last edited by bnd; 01-28-2011 at 12:24 PM.

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    These are by no means exhaustive.

    Choosing between different possibilities, laying down those pssiblities for others, making decisions and demonstrations in terms of possibilities rather than absolutes, refusal of dogma and theoretical aboslutes in favor of different ideas perceived at once, being able to grasp paradoxes

    Trying to see reality in ideas, curisiosity towards "digging deeper" into things, moving beyond what is appearant in favor of what is "behind", sense of abstract timing, apprehension of danger and events, probing reactions and testing limits, internal goofiness

    seeing what is appearant, physical appearances, looking for absolutes and dogma in theories ie what cannot be change about a doctrine or set of values, power over others, wealth, acquisition of resources for power over others, influence, aggresion, being able to move from one situation to another

    Seeing what is less appearant in physical objects ie, their internal physical attributes, internal state of an object judged by the internal physical state of the subject, seeing change in the physical object (even extremely slowly) concern with the physical body and its state, capacity to stay in one situation



    General mood of environment, looking for cheerful environment, expressing both positive and negative emotions, accepting others' emotions, emotional tonus of people and objects, emotional pressure, socializing naturally with others with expectation of emotional response thereof

    sense of relation and connection to the other person in one on one relationships, feeling of un/healthiness of relationships, seeking emotional peace(ie away from social interaction which creates emotional pressure) state of relationship, feeling relationship itself

    adapting to the system or systems, judging by empirical rather than theoretical evidence, constant rammification of "facts" and seeking truth through constant trial and error, understanding truth by reading or talking with others on a regular basis, aspiration of knowlegde and "knowing" other people intimately for the purpose of healthy relationships

    logical argumetation, deduction, seeking truth through theories rather than empircal evidence, edification of theries for the prupose of truth, seeking logical rather than emotive arguementation, judging people by just and unjust values rather than by "personal" preferences and "moral" values"

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    (This post I'll do Ni & Ti, the other post I'll finish the rest later/when I feel like it. Cuz I'm getting tired)

    Tracing things forwards and backwards on temporal and causal lines (as well as lines of necessity, as in x is necessary for y, and lines of logical priority, etc).
    Hmm. I don't think that's Ni's area of expertise at all.

    Working with limited information through "emergence":
    But I think, now you're getting on the right track.

    Ni uses the pieces of evidence at hand to imply a whole larger than the evidence available,
    Yeah.

    e.g., Bones constructing a narrative of a crime from three or four pieces of evidence, looking at an engine, an exhaust pipe, some wheels, and a steering wheel and guessing what a car is like.
    Uh. I think this is a shitty example. I got what you said but the example doesn't make any sense. I think Ni-egos do a lot of accusatory/guessing shit but that example just sounded retarded and not realistic. (No offense, or anything =p)

    Personal Experience: I experience Ni as narrative-constructing most frequently: seeing a few things that happened and coming up with a narrative relating them all which is temporal in nature.
    I think this is quite good. It explains my stories and writing very well, I think. Especially this webcomic chapter I'm working on. I think that's also why INFps can be awfully 'one-note.' Because Ni is naturally deep like that.

    I also tend to view things in terms of their formal aspects; what I mean by that is, I view my brown chair as: brown, chair, sitting-object, furniture, made-of-wood, held-together-by-screws, university property, etc.
    That is Ni working with Se I think to explain the kind of 'matter of fact ness' and crudeness that is in INFp writing.

    Aspectonics: Internal Dynamics of Fields. Ni is concerned with implicit or invisible aspects of a situation (in the case below, the abstracted properties of the car parts, rather than the physical parts themselves), and how they change in relation to one another over time: how would an engine interact with an exhaust pipe, and how would that relation change when you mix in the wheels, oh, and then I guess that explains where the steering wheel comes in... or, to provide a more "real life" example: you have x amount of dollars of subprime mortgage loans. You then have forces a and b acting on the market. And you have Bank m with its set of properties. How will these three interact over time? Or how did they interact over time in order to create the subprime housing crisis?
    I think once again, you have a great pure idea but bad examples. I don't think you should feel like you have to 'give examples' just because most people are too concrete and lack abstract thinking skills. I think personally you do a much better job 'summing things up' in the ideal Ni 'pretty bow' landscape then you do trying to give examples, which I think just makes your Te polr show too much to the outside world.

    Ti


    Description: Essential (i.e., unchanging) connections between things established by explicit (e.g., reproducible) means. Truths contained in the mind of the individual rather than in the world at large (introverted), but arrived at through means that are available to everyone and clearly defined (explicit).
    You sound all fancy pants. I think this is good though.

    Discovering contradictions between two propositions. E.g., It was stated that engine of the car cannot start itself. Therefore, there must be some source of power external to the engine in order to achieve the objective of motion.
    I really don't like car examples. =(

    Personal Experience: I experience Ti as a dividing function, especially in exposing contradictions and finding really deductive reasoning. I usually encounter it in an intellectual arena. Lots of concern with whether a new idea or claim or event fits with the established standard or not; things that do not fit with the established standard will be considered "stupid" until such time as they are proven to be derivable from a higher principle.
    I just think ti is 'rawly intellectual' and Te is 'business logic.' aka intelligence that's more externalized. This is all they mean in their very 'base' levels anyway, and usually people talk about them to sound fancy but I mean at their core that's really all they are.

    E.g., Principle 1 states that it is unwise to marry an ugly woman (this principle has been derived from experience and observation). However Principle 2 states that if one's girlfriend is pregnant, one must make an offer of marriage. An individual marrying an unattractive woman would be ridiculed, until it is revealed that Principle 2 (which supersedes Principle 1 for reasons the Ti-ego would have difficulty articulating to you) is in effect.
    Your examples still suck. I get the point but baaaad examples LOL.

    I also experience Ti a lot from my dad. I can see how he has developed principles and rules over time that tell him how to do the various aspects of his work, such as "always save an editing file every five minutes" or something like that. The relationship between work and saving is such that it is important to save frequently. This rule has been tested through Se experience: when I follow the rule, I achieve my goal; when I do not follow the rule, I do not achieve my goal.
    Yeah my dad has a shit ton of Ti as well.

    Aspectonics: External statics of fields. Concerned with unchanging relationships that are relatively more explicit in nature. Developing theories as to the properties of the relationships between objects. When paired with an extroverted perceiving function (as in all Ti-egos), Ti will create hypothetical rules, which they will then test according to the EP function (either by imagining alternative scenarios and questioning their likelihood, or by seeing if the rule helps achieve their goal in the real world).
    Yeah. ti-egos are very theory-ish in their relationship, and maintain them based off a very strong value/ideal system that they're holding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    These are by no means exhaustive.

    Choosing between different possibilities, laying down those pssiblities for others, making decisions and demonstrations in terms of possibilities rather than absolutes, refusal of dogma and theoretical aboslutes in favor of different ideas perceived at once, being able to grasp paradoxes

    Trying to see reality in ideas, curisiosity towards "digging deeper" into things, moving beyond what is appearant in favor of what is "behind", sense of abstract timing, apprehension of danger and events, probing reactions and testing limits, internal goofiness

    Hmm. can't grasp paradoxes ? "Contradictions" is a better term.

    Paradox: Two opposing propositions = True/False in the same instance. This is "Static".
    Contradiction: Two opposing propositions = True/False at alternating instances. This is "Dynamic".

    So yeah put contradictions up for then you've got the right idea.
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    B&D, no one is listening to you. Stop talking about socionics... it's not your thing.

    And take your gay victim shit out of Gen. Disc. threads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    B&D, no one is listening to you. Stop talking about socionics... it's not your thing.

    And take your gay victim shit out of Gen. Disc. threads.
    1. BnD has a right to speak his mind in whatever part of the forum he wishes.
    2. BnD has a right to his so-called gay victim shit, and some of us may even like it.
    3. I was interested in what he had to say. I listened, and last time I checked, I'm marginally "someone."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    1. BnD has a right to speak his mind in whatever part of the forum he wishes.
    2. BnD has a right to his so-called gay victim shit, and some of us may even like it.
    3. I was interested in what he had to say. I listened, and last time I checked, I'm marginally "someone."
    It's off topic. If he can go off-topic, then so can I.

    He's aggravating me by taking a cultural conservative stance towards socionics. In so doing, he's asserting that he has some right to determine what I talk about on this forum and what I don't, theory-wise.

    He can take his gay shit and stuff it back up his ass.

    He's also a spineless little whelp, as has been demonstrated in the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    He's also a spineless little whelp, as has been demonstrated in the past.
    Wh...elps?


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    *fizzle*
    *crack*
    *boop beep bop*
    generating output

    Ne - because it's cool
    Ni - sexy
    Si - pizza parrrrty
    Se - tits and ass
    Ti - mental masturbation
    Te - actual masturbation
    Fi - no you
    Fe - hehehe

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divided View Post
    Ne - because it's cool
    Ni - sexy
    Si - pizza parrrrty
    Se - tits and ass
    Ti - mental masturbation
    Te - actual masturbation
    Fi - no you
    Fe - hehehe
    This is the most sensible and straightforward entry in the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divided View Post
    *fizzle*
    *crack*
    *boop beep bop*
    generating output

    Ne - because it's cool
    Ni - sexy
    Si - pizza parrrrty
    Se - tits and ass
    Ti - mental masturbation
    Te - actual masturbation
    Fi - no you
    Fe - hehehe
    NO WAY I LOVE PIZZA PARTIES
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    It's pretty cool

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    For each extroverted element you can see it as energy directed outward, impact and effect going out from a person, and each introverted element is receptive or inward directed. Comparing Se with Si then, moving into very simplified terms it can be considered physical impact vs physical receptivity. As an illustration imagine a man running. You can picture Se as those effects he has on his external environment; his feet hitting the ground, arms and legs moving against the air, distance covered by his body. You can picture Si as those things affecting him; the feel of the ground on his feet, breath filling his lungs, the way the air moves across his skin, etc. And the same very simplified structure can be applied to each set of extro/intro elements: externalized thinking vs. internal, impactful emotion vs. subjective feeling, inner visionary path vs. the externalized.

    Then, you have to move from those simplified ideas, into realizing that every element is subjective because it is a kind of mode through which people view their world, and also that obviously everyone thinks, feels, senses and intuits. The basic ideas of S,N,T,F and intro/extro remain as background reference points. So, the elements as processing methods:

    --
    Ti: sorting, organizing, arranging and categorizing by objective qualities, moving information and ideas around to form coherent structures. Breaking down, splitting apart, and recombining to achieve a fit that makes sense

    Fi: sorting by implied characteristics, relative arrangements

    Ni: envisioning, pattern-recognition, following internal paths and connections, abstract flow from one thing to another

    Si: real-world paths and concrete relationships, actual flow and connection between things

    ----
    Te: applied methodology, concrete cause and effect

    Fe: implied cause and effect relationships

    Se: observation, "as-is" judgement

    Ne: potential, "could-be" judgement


    *** That was more difficult than I thought it'd be, definitely needs work ***

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