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Thread: Thomas Jefferson

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    Default Thomas Jefferson

    ILI>LII

    After listening to a documentary about him, some PBS kind of deal,

    I don't see him as being alpha or valuing. Clearly weak Se. I see more gamma values than alpha, in that his work ethic and sense of duty is more driven by gamma values. I could see his dual being more SEE than ESE; it spoke about how John Adams was someone who took to him and respected his conciseness, and there was a balance between Adam's illustriousness and Jefferson's carefulness.

    Hearing about him reminds me more of ILIs than of LIIs, LIIs are more 'jolly' and like to laugh more (Fe dual seeking). I don't see that in Jefferson.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Actually the most common, if not even more popular, 'other type' for Jefferson is EII.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Actually the most common, if not even more popular, 'other type' for Jefferson is EII.
    Wow, another point for my thread:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=35098
    My life's work (haha):
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/blog.php?b=709
    Input, PLEASEAnd thank you

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    According to this, he's a XXTj

    I wouldn't be surprised if he was my dual.

    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Everyone is your dual Maritsa. A whole world of fuck.
    ....Have you looked at my typing of forum members? If everyone were my duals than there would be A LOT more LSE on my list.
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    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    ....Have you looked at my typing of forum members? If everyone were my duals than there would be A LOT more LSE on my list.
    I can say with a remarkable sense of confidence that I believe that statement to be of strong validity.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Wait, but if everyone were your duals, Maritsa.....


    YOU would be your dual

    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Everyone is your dual Maritsa. A whole world of fuck.
    Don't exaggerate, Ashton. Her duals are only the people she wants as duals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    ....Have you looked at my typing of forum members? If everyone were my duals than there would be A LOT more LSE on my list.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    According to this, he's a XXTj

    I wouldn't be surprised if he was my dual.

    QED
    LII?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Actually the most common, if not even more popular, 'other type' for Jefferson is EII.
    I definitely don't see that. Unless the last few documentaries I've seen are full of it. EII seems like a nice, idealized version of someone who crafted the declaration or pushed for other things.

    Someone who is poor at Se, reserved, intuitive even in the most classic sense, yes. Idealistic, yes. But I'd wager that he's not someone bound by the rationality of an IJ, of a dominant function like Ti or Fi. And I don't see his dual as a caregiver, particularly an ESE.

    It's always useful to see how people are in their weakness, how they break down, and handle stresses. I see his various exploits abroad, his personal bickerings in politics, his take on building his house, his relationships, and his own take on ethics and personal development as being ILI, maybe with EII being a second choice, but it never really crossed my mind prior to this thread.

    I see him much more lacking and valuing Se (and Fi) than wanting Te/Fe+Si from someone else. The biggest blow to EII for me is that I don't see Fi matters being as consuming in his life as they would be to an EII; he is a very classic "NT".

    I think his writings and wisdom, even if it seems well grounded in humanitarian things, is more 'sober' in the Te sense.


    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Copy to Clipboard
    -- Thomas Jefferson


    And not just because of that quote, either. And, even when writing the Declaration or other advices for the future, I see his actions as being very much based on trying to plot a 'best course' for the future, taking into various things like human interests, human nature, the development of the country (all his warnings about the federal reserve, banks, foreign relations, etc), and so on. I see him much more as a someone who would warn and try to prepare or advocate for things (which is a classic role for ILIs in my experience) than someone who would do that almost as an "auxiliary role" to take --- that is, I see LIIs and EIIs doing that, too, but I see them doing it differently (they seem more to do it based off of their ideological structure, rather than a vision and related obstacles. His advice seems a lot more gamma NT, which is more 'intent' on a path or vision or destination, rather than Ne based / deflective / option-oriented alpha/delta advice.



    That said, I only have so much confidence in it because I really haven't studied his work in depth or been able to see his progression in thought development over time. But from the recent documentaries that I saw, which seemed a lot more 'personally revealing', I took away the above points, and thus far see ILI > anything else.

    He reminds me of one of my best ILI friends, a lot, also. (Very 'idealistic', but super reserved, very good natured and benevolent but with absolutely no inclination to use Fe in a public sense)
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    I definitely don't see that. Unless the last few documentaries I've seen are full of it. EII seems like a nice, idealized version of someone who crafted the declaration or pushed for other things.
    The documentaries may not be "full of it," but rather, it may be the interpretation of the data presented that's at issue. I do not mean to be rude, it's just that suggesting that you are presenting it as if the documentaries must be wrong for LII or EII to be considered, which is a wee bit silly. For must Russian Socionists, Jefferson is a clear LII. Socionics.us indicates that Thomas Jefferson was a solid LII benchmark for Russian Socionists, with a 100% convergence. The Stratievskaya LII description quotes Jefferson to describe the type. Jefferson is also a part of the Socioniko.net LII description. EII was a commonly mentioned type proposed by other boarders.

    Someone who is poor at Se, reserved, intuitive even in the most classic sense, yes. Idealistic, yes. But I'd wager that he's not someone bound by the rationality of an IJ, of a dominant function like Ti or Fi. And I don't see his dual as a caregiver, particularly an ESE.
    Why do you think that he lacks the rationality of an IJ type?

    It's always useful to see how people are in their weakness, how they break down, and handle stresses. I see his various exploits abroad, his personal bickerings in politics, his take on building his house, his relationships, and his own take on ethics and personal development as being ILI, maybe with EII being a second choice, but it never really crossed my mind prior to this thread.
    Would you mind elaborating on some of these points or pulling up sources that I could look at as well?

    I see him much more lacking and valuing Se (and Fi) than wanting Te/Fe+Si from someone else. The biggest blow to EII for me is that I don't see Fi matters being as consuming in his life as they would be to an EII; he is a very classic "NT".

    I think his writings and wisdom, even if it seems well grounded in humanitarian things, is more 'sober' in the Te sense.
    A Te sense?

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Copy to Clipboard
    -- Thomas Jefferson
    The LII has two benchmark names: the Descartes and the Robespierre. It's hard to imagine that this statement would inconsistent with Robespierre's own praxis.
    And not just because of that quote, either. And, even when writing the Declaration or other advices for the future, I see his actions as being very much based on trying to plot a 'best course' for the future, taking into various things like human interests, human nature, the development of the country (all his warnings about the federal reserve, banks, foreign relations, etc), and so on. I see him much more as a someone who would warn and try to prepare or advocate for things (which is a classic role for ILIs in my experience) than someone who would do that almost as an "auxiliary role" to take --- that is, I see LIIs and EIIs doing that, too, but I see them doing it differently (they seem more to do it based off of their ideological structure, rather than a vision and related obstacles. His advice seems a lot more gamma NT, which is more 'intent' on a path or vision or destination, rather than Ne based / deflective / option-oriented alpha/delta advice.
    Most of this would not inconsistent with either EIIs or LIIs. LIIs want to create principles, theories, and ideological structures that are capable of withstanding the test of time. It's the ultimate testament to the quality of their internal logic.

    I will look up past discussions and other Socionists opinions on Jefferson's type to see if we can find where they are coming from. But I will also keep my eye and mind open as to his type.
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    Humanist Maritsa's Avatar
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    What does QED mean?
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    @ logos

    I'd like to see how/why other socionists type him that way, too.

    I'm not sure what to make of Robispierre, I don't know him personally. He seemed more rigid than Jefferson, though, from what little I do know.


    More detailed response to come.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    What does QED mean?
    Quod erat demonstrandum.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    It's to demonstrate the position of the head on the spinal column an indication of a J type as opposed to a P type which has a more upright posture and bigger brain development to the front of the brain as opposed to the cranial volt.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    LII and EII do indeed seem to be the most common suggestions (including MBTI equilavents). I am currently favouring LII of those two, because his writing is full of crystal clear decisive logic, and is very much similar to the writing of LII philosophers such as Immanuel Kant and René Descartes. (Blaise Pascal might not seem so "logically-sound" by modern standards, but he perhaps has a similar style). I believe many historical EIIs may appear similar in style in terms of emphasizing their philosophical ideals, but in Jefferson's case, there does not seem to be any media (whether in speeches, letters, Declarations of Independence, novels etc.) where he displays anything that may seem more indicative of over (he seems generally quite "hard-nosed" albeit idealistic).

    It is difficult to consider other types as possible on the evidence available (I do worry with historic people that certain types (e.g. LSEs...SEIs...ESEs) are disproportionately underrepresented for various reasons), although I am fairly certain he was an introvert. I should say that, after having argued for LII based on the lack of any obvious evidence of a stronger case for EII, I nonetheless strongly identify with his style and philosophy despite self-typing as EII. But again, I see no obvious sign of him being EII over LII.
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