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Thread: A Male INTj's Dream Conversation

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Default A Male INTj's Dream Conversation

    LII

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    eh there's not much to go on, but i'm not really getting an Alpha vibe from those women. they seem

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Based on what you said, do you define as a quality that is essentially warm? Because this is something I would go as far as to debate not just in it's merit as the sole variation of , but as an Fe quality altogether; it could be a quality outside the theory, or even an Fi quality (think of Reese Witherspoon). Regardless, Fe often has a vibrant, enthusiastic quality, involving laughter, merriment, and, of course, enthusiasm. (Think JuJu, Sandra Bullock, Courtney Love... - some known Fe-egos from the forum, and others typed this way by famous Russian socionists.)

    Further, if the people in the picture are not ESEs, then they are generally EIE, and, for the purposes of this thread, this would perhaps be hair-splitting.

    The only other possibility I can think of would be that I took the picture out of context, because I haven't deeply studied the types of any of the people in that picture.
    Last edited by jason_m; 01-20-2011 at 12:13 AM.
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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    I get "extraverted feeler" vibes from them, but not necessarily ESE. My first impression of the woman in white, in particular, is of SEE. The woman in gray could be ESE, I suppose. One isolated photo is not nearly enough for me to come to any sort of firm conclusion.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Here is the problem I have:

    Look at the following list of people:

    - Bill Cosby
    - Sandra Bullock
    - Reese Witherspoon
    - Erin Andrews
    - Jennifer Lopez
    - Courtney Love
    - Tom Cruise
    - Jennifer Alba

    Now, sort it in the following way, and think of their functions as you read down the list:

    - Courtney Love
    - Erin Andrews
    - Sandra Bullock
    - Bill Cosby
    - Tom Cruise
    - Reese Witherspoon
    - Jennifer Alba
    - Jennifer Lopez


    Where do you draw the line as to where the Fe-egos start and where they end? (Do you see what I'm generally getting at?)
    Last edited by jason_m; 01-20-2011 at 11:08 PM.
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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    Here is the problem I have:

    Look at the following list of people:

    - Bill Cosby
    - Sandra Bullock
    - Reese Witherspoon
    - Erin Andrews
    - Jennifer Lopez
    - Courtney Love
    - Tom Cruise

    Now, sort it in the following way, and think of their functions as you read down the list:

    - Courtney Love
    - Erin Andrews
    - Sandra Bullock
    - Bill Cosby
    - Tom Cruise
    - Reese Witherspoon
    - Jennifer Lopez

    Where do you draw the line as to where the Fe-egos start and where they end? (Do you see what I'm generally getting at?)
    Er... sorry, it's going over my head.

    If it helps, I would probably type Cosby, Bullock, and Cruise and ESE, Witherspoon and Lopez I'm not sure, Courtney Love I vaguely thought was SLE, and I don't know who Erin Andrews is. But I'm not sure if that's what you're asking. :/
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Er... sorry, it's going over my head.

    If it helps, I would probably type Cosby, Bullock, and Cruise and ESE, Witherspoon and Lopez I'm not sure, Courtney Love I vaguely thought was SLE, and I don't know who Erin Andrews is. But I'm not sure if that's what you're asking. :/
    The point I was trying to make is that there is some overall pattern as you go down the list. The people at the top of the list are strong Fe-egos (perhaps take Courtney Love out). As you go down, it morphs from Fe to Fi. Where exactly do the Fe egos stop and the Fi egos start? Can a line be drawn at all? These are important socionics questions, because they apply to Model A - specifically, how to demarcate different types. In other words, separate one type from another (and thereby type people in general).

    By the way, Erin Andrews is the person in grey in the picture above - good observational skills, := . And I was wrong about the people in the picture. I got excited and looked them up, and realized that, as enthusiastic as the people seem, the two on the left are just laughing at something someone said, yet I'm certain Erin Andrews is an Fe-ego. My mistake...
    Last edited by jason_m; 01-20-2011 at 07:17 AM.
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    For instance, where I draw the line is right at Tom Cruise: is he an Fe-ego or an Fi-ego?

    He has very friendly, outgoing vibes, but, if you look at his interviews, there are elements of "sincerity" that might be better placed with Fi, like say, Jennifer Lopez...
    LII

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Another minor note: I think that identical relations should not be called "identical," but rather "symmetric"; I don't see myself in a lot of my identicals, but there is always a similarity in our information metabolism, given that the same function can manifest itself in different ways (in fact, identicals might not always get along because of the differences). This small clarification might help people better understand socionics...
    LII

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    The point I was trying to make is that there is some overall pattern as you go down the list. The people at the top of the list are strong Fe-egos (perhaps take Courtney Love out). As you go down, it morphs from Fe to Fi. Where exactly do the Fe egos stop and the Fi egos start? Can a line be drawn at all? These are important socionics questions, because they apply to Model A - specifically, how to demarcate different types. In other words, separate one type from another (and thereby type people in general).

    By the way, Erin Andrews is the person in grey in the picture above - good observational skills, := . And I was wrong about the people in the picture. I got excited and looked them up, and realized that, as enthusiastic as the people seem, the two on the left are just laughing at something someone said, yet I'm certain Erin Andrews is an Fe-ego. My mistake...
    So basically you're having difficulty typing Ethical types? That's what it sounds like to me. I don't so much see a spectrum there as a list of individuals with different sociotypes.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    I note from the picture that I am not in the conversation... hence I don't see why I should care whether such a conversation is taking place.



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    I note from the picture that I am not in the conversation... hence I don't see why I should care whether such a conversation is taking place.
    (I will let you in on a dirty secret.) I know for a fact that this does not appeal to ESEs:



    (Whether you or I are this is another question.)
    LII

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    jason_m, i think you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. if you accept the idea of dichotomies, and if you recognize that everyone uses all of their functions (but not in the same way), then i think all of the questions you're asking are kind of unnecessary. (whether you believe socionics models reality correctly is another issue.)

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    3 Women (of ANY type)

    +

    A Dreaming Male LII

    =

    Conversation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    jason_m, i think you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. if you accept the idea of dichotomies, and if you recognize that everyone uses all of their functions (but not in the same way), then i think all of the questions you're asking are kind of unnecessary. (whether you believe socionics models reality correctly is another issue.)
    I don't know why logic or intuition would choose your argument over mine; given both the complexity of the issue (the degree of variation amongst types, the number of people that need to be considered, etc.) and the empirical nature of the problem, one would think that an affirmative answer could only be given by experiment. I think it is quite intuitive that there is room for the notion of a "blurring," "morphing," "spectrum", etc. between functions mentioned above, as well as the notion that there are varieties of functions that types use differently. (I agree that whether or not this invalidates Model A is another issue.)

    With respect to the issue of there being more types, consider the following thought experiment:

    Take the whole world population and put it into one single room. Type every person in that room. What are the chances that every single person fits one exact, unanimous type, and that you can group any two people into one exact relation that fits perfectly with the original typings that you made? Common sense says that this is not possible, as at least some people will not fit into the system, and therefore there must logically be other factors there... (Or else there would be some, at this point, unobtainable answer which explains the disparities amongst types or relations, or what causes these disparities cannot even be classified as a "factor"... both defying logic and common sense.)

    (Once again, whether Model A is generally valid or not is a completely different issue; it just is not logically possible for it to be absolutely correct.)
    Last edited by jason_m; 01-21-2011 at 05:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CILi View Post
    3 Women (of ANY type)

    +

    A Dreaming Male LII

    =

    Conversation?
    I don't know if you're taking it too literally/seriously or if you did not read my apology to Krig the Viking.
    LII

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    I don't know why logic or intuition would choose your argument over mine; given both the complexity of the issue (the degree of variation, the number of people that need to be considered, etc.) and the empirical nature of the problem, one would think that an affirmative answer could only be given by experiment. I think it is quite intuitive that there is room for the notion of a "blurring," "morphing," "spectrum", etc. between functions mentioned above, as well as the notion that there are varieties of functions that types use differently. (I agree that whether or not this invalidates Model A is another issue.)

    With respect to the issue of there being more types, consider the following thought experiment:

    Take the whole world population and put it into one single room. Type every person in that room. What are the chances that every single person fits one exact, unanimous type, and that you can group any two people into one exact relation that fits perfectly with the original typings that you made? Common sense says that this is not possible, as at least some people will not fit into the system, and therefore there must logically be other factors there... (Or else there would be some, at this point, unobtainable answer which explains the disparities amongst types or relations, or what causes these disparities cannot even be classified as a "factor"... both defying logic and common sense.)

    (Once again, whether Model A is generally valid or not is a completely different issue; it just is not logically possible for it to be absolutely correct.)
    It sounds like you're projecting your own confusion onto the theory itself. Of course socionics is a little fuzzy and doesn't offer absolute answers, but it's not necessary or beneficial to invent concepts like this to "explain" why. I suppose if you're into philosophy that kind of thing can be fun, but it's not going to help you learn socionics.

    One reality, many manifestations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    I don't know if you're taking it too literally/seriously or if you did not read my apology to Krig the Viking.
    A bit of both, really.

    Let the Socionics commence...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    It sounds like you're projecting your own confusion onto the theory itself. Of course socionics is a little fuzzy and doesn't offer absolute answers, but it's not necessary or beneficial to invent concepts like this to "explain" why. I suppose if you're into philosophy that kind of thing can be fun, but it's not going to help you learn socionics.

    One reality, many manifestations.
    For one, I don't see how "inventing" explanations is counterproductive anymore than developing them through other means... (I wonder if what this debate could simply come down to is the issue of "top-down" versus "bottom-up" thinking styles). In any event, if you look at the history of science, etc., many theories have been "free creations of the human mind" used to explain phenomena. In terms of truth-value, what it comes down to is a matter of testing, and perhaps the problem is that these notions are not testable within a limited time-frame, etc. With respect to the overall value or merit of this approach, there is no way one could deduce that developing such theories cannot enrich one's personal understanding of socionics (or perhaps help in other more general issues).

    If you debate the merits of the thought experiment, consider the pigeonhole principle. Given some level of math skills, perhaps there is some way to reverse-engineer an experiment using it to determine approximately how many types there are in reality...
    LII

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    For one, I don't see how "inventing" explanations is counterproductive anymore than developing them through other means... (I wonder if what this debate could simply come down to is the issue of "top-down" versus "bottom-up" thinking styles). In any event, if you look at the history of science, etc., many theories have been "free creations of the human mind" used to explain phenomena. In terms of truth-value, what it comes down to is a matter of testing, and perhaps the problem is that these notions are not testable within a limited time-frame, etc. With respect to the overall value or merit of this approach, there is no way one could deduce that developing such theories cannot enrich one's personal understanding of socionics (or perhaps help in other more general issues).
    If you're coming up with your own theory, by definition you aren't learning about socionics. I may be a little conservative when it comes to theory-building, but most of your criticisms seem pretty basic (applicable to any sociological or scientific theory) and easily resolved (as glamourama pointed out). As for the question "how do I distinguish types", you just have to become familiar with the types and their manifestations.

    If you debate the merits of the thought experiment, consider the pigeonhole principle. Given some level of math skills, perhaps there is some way to reverse-engineer an experiment using it to determine approximately how many types there are in reality...
    Um what? Socionic types only exist as part of a system. You could say there are 2 or 16 or 32 or 6.4 billion, whatever you choose. I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "type" other than set of people.

    I can't emphasize this enough: There are many different behavioral manifestations of each type. People always want to understand these differences when they learn about socionics, hence subtypes and all that stuff. There's nothing wrong with that, but socionics is about the commonalities within each type, not the differences. In most cases I find that subtypes just make everything more inaccurate, not less, because it just gives you more ways to rationalize bad typings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    If you're coming up with your own theory, by definition you aren't learning about socionics.
    Not directly, but sometimes indirectly you can be. For example, through learning about the accepted socionics traits of the types that you use to build it, or by better understanding how socionics fits together as a model in order to implement your theory.

    I may be a little conservative when it comes to theory-building, but most of your criticisms seem pretty basic (applicable to any sociological or scientific theory)
    Are they "basic" or "fundamental?" Do you see where I'm going here...

    and easily resolved (as glamourama pointed out).
    Fair enough. But how can they be resolved?

    As for the question "how do I distinguish types", you just have to become familiar with the types and their manifestations.
    What I was referring to is that there might be some inconsistencies in how people type others, because some traits overlap. The question would then be about how a line could be drawn between one overlapping trait and another. (Or perhaps a bigger issue is how to better classify traits so what is overlapping becomes more "visible", and perhaps removes the need to draw a line at all...)

    um what? Socionic types only exist as part of a system. You could say there are 2 or 16 or 32 or 6.4 billion, whatever you choose. I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "type" other than set of people.
    I meant objectively determine the number of relations through observation, experiment, etc. relative to the types of the people involved, and then compare this with the number of expected relations, to determine an approximate number of types (or something similar to this...).

    I can't emphasize this enough: There are many different behavioral manifestations of each type. People always want to understand these differences when they learn about socionics, hence subtypes and all that stuff. There's nothing wrong with that, but socionics is about the commonalities within each type, not the differences. In most cases I find that subtypes just make everything more inaccurate, not less, because it just gives you more ways to rationalize bad typings.
    Good point, but the problem I have found is that without sub-typings, some typings simply don't add up...
    LII

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post

    I can't emphasize this enough: There are many different behavioral manifestations of each type. People always want to understand these differences when they learn about socionics, hence subtypes and all that stuff. There's nothing wrong with that, but socionics is about the commonalities within each type, not the differences. In most cases I find that subtypes just make everything more inaccurate, not less, because it just gives you more ways to rationalize bad typings.
    This is how I've always seen it. One's type isn't necessarily a box. More a studio apartment. Lots of room for one person to move around in, lots of potential for customization.
    4w5 sp/sx

    Please, direct all questioning of my self-typing to this thread. Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    Are they "basic" or "fundamental?" Do you see where I'm going here...
    Not really...You simply can't address this problem at this level of generality. It's like looking at a slide through two different microscopes and asking why one image is slightly darker than the other. Do you really want to make up a metaphysical theory to explain it or should you just assume it's a flaw with the microscope itself?

    Fair enough. But how can they be resolved?
    By acknowledging that there is variety within types, and that nothing in science is 100% accurate or for certain.

    What I was referring to is that there might be some inconsistencies in how people type others, because some traits overlap. The question would then be about how a line could be drawn between one overlapping trait and another. (Or perhaps a bigger issue is how to better classify traits so what is overlapping becomes more "visible", and perhaps removes the need to draw a line at all...)
    Again, socionics is not really about visible "traits". It's about the underlying mechanism - information metabolism.

    I meant objectively determine the number of relations through observation, experiment, etc. relative to the types of the people involved, and then compare this with the number of expected relations, to determine an approximate number of types (or something similar to this...).
    Define relation.

    Good point, but the problem I have found is that without sub-typings, some typings simply don't add up...
    This is exactly my point. You just gotta keep tweaking it until it works - subtypes are a kind of cop-out solution. Socionics is a science, so one can't get away with only using , one has to use too.

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    You know, I've noticed this: so much of debate is about defending yourself - or perhaps proving yourself. (I will admit that I am as guilty of it as anyone.)

    This would be my model of a good debate:

    Person 1: This my thesis.

    Person 2: Your thesis is consistent with my notions of reality for reasons 1, 2, 3, etc. and inconsistent for reasons a, b, c, etc. How can this be reconciled?

    Person 1: (Attempts to objectively compare their thesis with these reasons, and come to some reconciliation, either positive or negative.)

    Person 2: (Once again, provides objective criticism.)
    .
    .
    .
    The process continues until the debate is resolved or it is determined that no conclusion can be reached.


    Think of how often Internet debates actually look something like this...

    What I'm saying is that a debate should often be open-minded, for the purposes of learning something; under this model, instead offering a proof as to why your point is correct, a debate is looked at more as an opportunity to solve some sort of research or theoretical problem. (And especially on this forum, disagreeableness is confused with type, specifically thinking qualities - not calling anyone on it here.)

    I find that the process is too often about proving than learning, and that's why I don't really like participating...

    And I'm not calling on anyone specifically; we're all guilty of it. It's just something that I've noticed that is sort of a mild annoyance to me...

    Jason
    Last edited by jason_m; 01-22-2011 at 07:10 AM.
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    According to my calculations:

    Let d = dream conversation.

    If and only if:

    LII + d =


    Then:

    ILE + d =


    SEI + d =


    ESE + d =


    SLE + d =


    etc.

    So LII2 + d =


    So LII3 + d =


    So LII10100 + d =

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    I'll take SNSD over my original option, thank-you.

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    i still think the first group are Gamma SF trophy wives...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatthewZ View Post
    I'll take SNSD over my original option, thank-you.
    1 + 1 - > 2 + 2 -


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    Quote Originally Posted by MatthewZ View Post
    I'll take SNSD over my original option, thank-you.
    +1.
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    i still think the first group are Gamma SF trophy wives...
    From this pic alone there is nothing about them that particularly makes me think they are alpha. Definitely not the stuff of my "dreams".

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    they look too inorganic
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Silicon is not organic.

    If you catch my drift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    i still think the first group are Gamma SF trophy wives...
    It was just supposed to be a joke; what is going on in the picture is perhaps more important than the types involved, and finally, I would be surprised if every single person there was Gamma SF.

    (This is what I'm referring to when I speak of disagreement simply for it's own sake, as opposed to open-minded objectivity.)
    Last edited by jason_m; 01-28-2011 at 12:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    It was just supposed to be a joke; what is going on in the picture is perhaps more important than the types involved, and finally, I would be surprised if every single person there was Gamma SF.

    (This is what I'm referring to when I speak of disagreement simply for it's own sake, as opposed to open-minded objectivity.)
    lol, so because i disagree with you, i lack open-mindedness and objectivity? oh please.

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    Crispy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    I would be surprised if every single person there was Gamma SF.
    I wouldn't lol. They all look irritating clones to me. The right one is maaaaaaaaybe tolerable.
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    lol, so because i disagree with you, i lack open-mindedness and objectivity? oh please.
    EDIT: I remember from video interviews that the person on the right seemed to be an Fe-ego. I found this picture with these people laughing, seeming so typical of this function. I just wanted to make a joke about how these attractive Fe-ego women laughing and giggling would be enjoyable to an LII. I thought about spending time checking video interviews to make sure that they are the right type, but I hoped that forum is not so petty and fault-finding that I would have to spend much time in order to defend myself in a debate over the types in a stupid joke...
    Last edited by jason_m; 01-28-2011 at 11:56 PM.
    LII

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    EDIT: I remember from video interviews that the person on the right seemed to be an Fe-ego. I found this picture with these people laughing, seeming so typical of this function. I just wanted to make a joke about how these attractive Fe-ego women laughing and giggling would be enjoyable to an LII. I thought about spending time checking video interviews to make sure that they are the right type, but I hoped that forum is not so petty and fault-finding that I would have to spend much time in order to defend myself in a debate over the types in a stupid joke...
    Sorry for derailing your joke. I wasn't trying to be a nitpicker, it's just that it was pretty instantly apparent to me that at least two of the three were probably not ESE, so the joke kinda fell flat. However, I understand your reasoning behind the joke, and would have found it appropriately amusing had I received a more distinctly Alpha vibe from the photo.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Sorry for derailing your joke. I wasn't trying to be a nitpicker, it's just that it was pretty instantly apparent to me that at least two of the three were probably not ESE, so the joke kinda fell flat. However, I understand your reasoning behind the joke, and would have found it appropriately amusing had I received a more distinctly Alpha vibe from the photo.
    Comrade:

    No big deal. It's not you I'm referring to. You seemed genuinely curious. However, I notice that there's a general vibe the forum gives off that small details can become huge, heated arguments over nothing.
    LII

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    EDIT: I remember from video interviews that the person on the right seemed to be an Fe-ego. I found this picture with these people laughing, seeming so typical of this function. I just wanted to make a joke about how these attractive Fe-ego women laughing and giggling would be enjoyable to an LII. I thought about spending time checking video interviews to make sure that they are the right type, but I hoped that forum is not so petty and fault-finding that I would have to spend much time in order to defend myself in a debate over the types in a stupid joke...
    and so now i'm apparently petty and fault-finding, along with being nonobjective and close-minded. yay!

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    and so now i'm apparently petty and fault-finding, along with being nonobjective and close-minded. yay!
    Woot wooo wooooooooooo

    SSSSSSsssssssOOOOOooooooCCCCCCCCcccccccccIIIIIIIii iiiiiiiOOOOOoooooNNNNNNNnnnnnnnIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiiiii CCCCCCCCCCCccccccccccSSSSSSSSSsssssss to save the day!

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