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Thread: Fe and Fi Valuing: What do they look like?

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    Default Fe and Fi Valuing: What do they look like?

    Pictures, experiences, paragraphs of text, videos (especially videos) wanted: How do you tell a Fi-valuer apart from a Fe-valuer? How do they behave? How do they form friends? How do they speak?

    I'm told that seeing whether someone is Merry or Serious is one of the easier ways to narrow down someone's type. So. How do you tell?

    EDIT: And no Fe versus Fi arguments. Make a different thread for that.
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    Just laying out the very basic distinction made in my Socionics book, to go along with everything:

    (emotional feeling) - Open emotional influence, immediate emotional reactions

    (relational feeling) - Human relationships, duty and morality, respect of traditions, guarding of principles

    So if you can figure out what each person focuses on consciously, given clues in their words. I notice that the book references these classical terms briefly, but doesn't actually follow them completely.


    This page is also worthy http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=28365

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    That list is an example of why I don't like Reinen dichotomies. From my perspective, not all Ti/Fe valuers are warm, and not all Fi/Te valuers are cold. And from my perspective, it's people with Ti, and particularly Ti with Se, who have a right way to do things and can't envision another way of doing things. And also, from my perspective, I feel like I see the truth as more subjective than many Fe/Ti valuers I know.

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    all of the things said so far are great.

    I also wanted to add the concept that helped me understand the key difference between Fe and Fi, knowing all these other things posted so far:

    Fe is a dynamic function focusing on the changeable, apparent moods and taking major info from that.

    Fi is a static function, focusing on the constant, defined feelings towards someone or something.

    Expat once posted a great allegory to illustrate this that essentially said Fe is like an emotional "fog" surrounding someone, that keeps changing colors depending on the mood. Fi is a laser beam that connects two people, with the length (or absence) depending on how the person feels about them on a long-term basis.

    I'll try to find that post and link it. It was excellent.


    EDIT: I can't find that post... can someone link it?

    EDIT #2: FOUND IT! voila.. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ight=laser+fog
    Last edited by Suz; 01-17-2011 at 06:49 PM.
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    I tend to agree with Mariella that not every Fe-valuer will seem warm, especially not if you are keyed in to Fi.

    Sir Knight, it seems like some of the recent threads where people complain about Fe illustrate some of the differences between Fe and Fi. Since you yourself value Fe (right? you self-type IEI?), imo, the best way to tell the difference is ascertaining you're among Fi-valuers and noting the contrast.

    Two ways I can tell I'm with an Fi-valuer ... my output of Fe doesn't find a lot of places to stick one-on-one, especially as I get to know the person better. I can still use Fe in a mixed group of Fe- and Fi-valuers, I think. But where some people feel entertained by it and walk away with a good impression, I expect others might walk away feeling annoyed or even manipulated, or thinking I'm phony. In a group of Fi people, I know I'm sticking out like a sore thumb and struggle mightily to tamp myself down.

    The other thing is just that as an Fe person, I don't easily read the emotions of the Fi-valuer. I know they have them, and it varies from type to type, person to person, but I notice that their emotions catch me off guard, because I won't see them for a while, and then suddenly something will manifest, or I will find out like by two people removed that they are unhappy about something, and I'm like WTF? Where did that come from? I can't follow the flow of their feelings very well.

    One thing I don't know that I agree with in the above merry/serious descriptions is that Fi = principles and Fe does not. I think both F's have principles but probably measure them differently. Sort of in line with what Mariella said (but pardon me if you think I'm misappropriating what you expressed, Mariella), I have principles that are kind of outside myself and a bit rigid.

    Through the lens of Fe, and so therefore biased, Fi sometimes looks to me like a person who really gets offended more easily than I do over lots of little things, which don't bother me that much, but on the big things ("big" by my definition), Fi-valuers are sometimes able to offend me to an astonishing extent.

    Now I'll repeat myself. Seems like in various threads the obvious conclusion was that Fi and Fe types tend to accuse each other of the same things--being fake, being intolerant. My working opinion is that most of the major misunderstandings I have with people of any stripe or type have to do with Fi and Fe differences. But maybe this is just 'cause I use a ton of Fe.

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    It might look right from the perspective of an Fe/Ti valuer, but it does not look right at all from my perspective. I don't agree with that at all, and typing using those as criteria could very easily IMO lead to mistypings.

    And to Golden: I agree with a lot of what you said. And I do think that Fi valuers get offended more easily than Fe valuers.

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    And now I think, "Fi valuers get offended more easily than Fe valuers" is still a comparison more than a way to categorize people. It isn't like every time someone gets offended that person is an Fi valuer, or if someone isn't offended by something potentially offensive then that person is an Fe valuer. It's more about trends and overall impressions. Also, it can get confused if you're looking from the outside in at a person. Like, I do get offended easily, but I try to hold back on that because I don't think it's always healthy or useful. But even if I try not to get offended, I can sometimes feel myself cringe, even when it's not directed at me. In fact, particularly when it's directed at someone else.

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    I think when Fe types interact, they're more likely to either feed off of or impact each others' emotions. Fi types seem more like they interact within emotional parameters that are determined by their relationships. Fe types piss off Fi types by stepping outside of their parameters, and Fi types irritate Fe types with their lack of interest in the emotional interchange.

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    OKAY
    HERE IT GOES AGAIN

    Fe: Internal Object Dynamics
    Fe is a perception of objective personal states of things. What I mean by that is that the feelings/whatever perceived by Fe valuers are viewed in the same light as objects, in that they are readily observable from any perspective. Fe information is one that is able to be separated from its original source and is able to exist in several different sources at once. By themselves, these objectivites have no inherent meaning, as they are simply content without context; the meaning must come from some sort of implied outside framework that allows for the subjectivity to exist (this part is more of a conjecture than actual observation, but I feel like something to this effect must be the case).

    Fi: Internal Field Statics
    The information perceived by Fi is that of a web of personal subjectivities. This basically means that the subjective/emotional/whatever information perceived by Fi can only make sense to the host of the feelings. As such, these feelings are unable to be separated from the original source, as any attempts to do so would completely ruin the continuity between the subjectivities. The only way for these feelings to be expressed is for there to be a sort of middle-man in play, some sort of external object that is capable of transporting these subjectivities to another host.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    One thing I don't know that I agree with in the above merry/serious descriptions is that Fi = principles and Fe does not. I think both F's have principles but probably measure them differently. Sort of in line with what Mariella said (but pardon me if you think I'm misappropriating what you expressed, Mariella), I have principles that are kind of outside myself and a bit rigid.
    Yes.

    Fi valuers = Listen to my words and hear what I mean; our state must not affect the situation
    Fe valuers = Listen to my tone and hear/see how I feel; our words cannot hide we feel

    Thus:
    Fe valuers trust displays
    Fi valuers trust words(or the person's word, really)
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    In chat, someone who valued Fe (wish I could remember who!!) said that if there were a group where people appeared unhappy, he/she would try to improve the mood, and if the unhappiness were caused by relationship problems even, he/she would try to brighten the mood in the hopes that if the people involved were happier, that would put them in a place where they could solve their relationship problems themselves.

    Whereas, I think if I were in a group where people appeared unhappy, I'd probably speak to them individually and find out what was wrong, figuring that if their individual problems, particularly with other people in the group, were solved, it would improve the group. Like if people are relating to each other well, the group will naturally work better.

    Anyway, that's an example from chat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Yes.

    Fi valuers = Listen to my words and hear what I mean; our state must not affect the situation
    Fe valuers = Listen to my tone and hear/see how I feel; our words cannot hide we feel

    Thus:
    Fe valuers trust displays
    Fi valuers trust words(or the person's word, really)
    Yes yes!!

    This is the key difference arising between the way my sister (EII) or I (IEE) process info vs our mom (I think ESE), and the major source of arguments and misunderstanding that happen (even though we are very close).

    I feel that my mother often, though listening to me, does not actually HEAR me or what i'm trying to say. She gets distracted by my "tone" and puts more value in the tone than what i'm saying. Same thing often happens between my sister and her as well. My sister isn't as good at standing up for herself though so a small thing can spin outta control and I sometimes feel like she's getting bullied for not a very substantial reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Yes yes!!

    This is the key difference arising between the way my sister (EII) or I (IEE) process info vs our mom (I think ESE), and the major source of arguments and misunderstanding that happen (even though we are very close).

    I feel that my mother often, though listening to me, does not actually HEAR me or what i'm trying to say. She gets distracted by my "tone" and puts more value in the tone than what i'm saying. Same thing often happens between my sister and her as well. My sister isn't as good at standing up for herself though so a small thing can spin outta control and I sometimes feel like she's getting bullied for not a very substantial reason.
    I get the same thing from my ISFp mom too, or at least I used to. Sometimes when we say "hi" to each other she'll ask me "what's wrong?", when I didn't think I had given her any indication that anything was wrong. I could just be tired or whatever, but she'll interpret it as something being the matter.

    It has to do with the nature of Fe looking for something tangible to go off of, being an object function and all. It sees inherent personal qualities of people as something meant to be analyzed as an object, which can rub Fi valuers the exact wrong way since they don't see their subjectivities as something that need to be analyzed as an objective, tangible thing. Fe valuers have to see the emotions for themselves in order to understand that they exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I get the same thing from my ISFp mom too, or at least I used to. Sometimes when we say "hi" to each other she'll ask me "what's wrong?", when I didn't think I had given her any indication that anything was wrong. I could just be tired or whatever, but she'll interpret it as something being the matter.
    Yep, I've done this to people I now know are Fi-valuers. Maybe not always quite this direct, because I don't want to assume something is wrong with anyone. But yeah. If for an extended period I'm not getting that external indication I look for, at worst, my mind starts a process of negative speculation.

    A minor quibble: I don't experience Fe as a process of analysis. To me it's much more direct than that, I simply take in impressions in a straightforward way. The sky is blue, the grass is green, and Galen is clearly perturbed. (Except it may not be clear, since you don't value Fe, hee.) And it's sometimes so instantaneous that really, it's not about observing your perturbation. It's about instantly putting out something toward your perturbed state. Push and pull, automatic.

    I'm curious how other Fe people experience this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    A minor quibble: I don't experience Fe as a process of analysis. To me it's much more direct than that, I simply take in impressions in a straightforward way. The sky is blue, the grass is green, and Galen is clearly perturbed. (Except it may not be clear, since you don't value Fe, hee.)
    Yeah, I feel like I may have been combining Ti with Fe in my description; it's hard to separate the two, since neither one makes sense without the other. Fe is not an analysis itself, but it is the thing that is analyzed. Object functions seem to be ones that are simply taken for granted, things that should be obvious to everybody yet somehow aren't (at least when interacting with conflicting IE values).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    In chat, someone who valued Fe (wish I could remember who!!) said that if there were a group where people appeared unhappy, he/she would try to improve the mood, and if the unhappiness were caused by relationship problems even, he/she would try to brighten the mood in the hopes that if the people involved were happier, that would put them in a place where they could solve their relationship problems themselves.

    Whereas, I think if I were in a group where people appeared unhappy, I'd probably speak to them individually and find out what was wrong, figuring that if their individual problems, particularly with other people in the group, were solved, it would improve the group. Like if people are relating to each other well, the group will naturally work better.

    Anyway, that's an example from chat.
    I think that was me, Mariella. You spoke of how when you walk into a room, you are aware of all the relational connections between people, something like that, as well as what you stated in this post. And you gave some specific examples of addressing individuals' needs.

    Although I have certainly been known to address individuals, for example, by introducing two people and pointing out some things they have in common, by taking note of someone who seems to be having a problem and speaking to them, the main thing I do is work on the overall tone and mood. And, as you remembered, my point often that will encourage them to do the Fi stuff on their own.

    And as the chat unrolled, I recall, too, that Aiss pointed out how, analogously, she will give people Te to let them draw their own Ti conclusions--something to that effect.

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    Thanks for all the responses, guys. I think I have a pretty good understanding of the abstract theory behind the two, but what I'm most interested in right now is practical examples.

    As in, I'd like to see what Fe/Fi valuers look like when they do Fe/Fi valuing things. I ask this because it's difficult to take the abstract and apply it to real life without having seen what it looks like. I know that there is no "true" manifestation of Fe or Fi and that the people with these elements will still have a great deal of diversity between them, but are there any "stereotypical" examples of what they look like?
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    Yeah, I noticed that aspect of your OP but ... what to say? This is so broad, because I don't think all Fe-valuers are going to present the same visual markers, nor will all Fi-valuers. You have to narrow it down typologically, imo.

    Like, I know how Fe looks in the Beta ego block, more or less:





    The face is mobile. The voices are expressive. Gestures. Tons of cues there for me to read the shifting states in these two people.

    Can't say that Beta STs, even though they value Fe, will show you anything much at all about Fe, except that if you are displaying it, they will soak it up and even encourage it, ime.

    Now, someone else needs to tell us about their quadra/s. Fe is gonna be different in Alpha, and I've seen it plenty, but I'm sure an Alpha can describe it better than I can. And Fi--if I try to describe how that looks to me, I'm going to do it some kind of injustice, although I try pretty hard these days to get where Fi-valuers are coming from.

    ETA: about Beta, if I'm interacting with the SLE boyfriend, it seems like my Fe feeds or flows into his Se, and if that's not correct, I can at least say it sort of winds him up. He also uses his horrifyingly inappropriate Fi-PoLR humor to elicit Fe. Or just a poke in the ribs. Anything to get a big fat Fe reaction.

    Anyone can tell us how ISTj reacts to Fe?
    Last edited by golden; 01-17-2011 at 10:46 PM.

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    I tend to lighten up a lot more. Smile more, interact more, noticeably happier, more outgoing...comfortable, energized. Without it I almost feel as if I don't exist to others or am completely uninteresting and emotionless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    I tend to lighten up a lot more. Smile more, interact more, noticeably happier, more outgoing...comfortable, energized. Without it I almost feel as if I don't exist to others or am completely uninteresting and emotionless.
    ditto

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    There aren't any concrete behaviors to use that will not cause more harm than good to your understanding of the differences between Fe-valuers and Fi-valuers.


    Regardless, some general observations:

    I think it helps to start by noticing what environments/people are obviously Fe-egos and obviously Fe-superid. With Fe, the reactions are bigger, the emotions are closer to the surface. Aretha Franklin. Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. Ode to the West Wind. Alice in Wonderland. Exuberance. Fe-superid eats this up, will even do things to provoke an Fe reaction. Emotions on the face, where we can see them. When an Fe-superid person can't tell what another person is feeling (this generally happens with extrovert Fe-HA and introvert Fe-Creative) they will do things to provoke the Fe, as Golden said.

    Fi is cooler. Miles Davis. Will Smith (not Fresh Prince arms flying everywhere Will Smith, but I'm-a-cool-guy Hitch Will Smith). Less excitable, less motion. Emotions aren't worn on their sleeves. I experience Fi valuers as at once distance of remove from the emotions you see on their faces (Fi valuers would probably describe Fe-egos the same way though...).

    Environments that involve a lot of ribbing, jokes at each other's expense, etc. will usually be more Fe (really, more beta). Fe is archetypally that large, loud gathering of people, all talking over one another, constantly interrupting each other, fighting for who can tell the best joke, the best story, whatever. Simmering conversation followed by explosions of laughter. ESEs like to give frequent "I love you"s whenever someone does something that meets their approval.

    Fi environments are archetypally more gentle. Everyone loves a good joke, but there will be less dramatic falling on the floor type laughter. Less shouting from the rooftops.

    Fe is direct knowledge of how to cause motion: internal dynamics of objects. Fe is the awareness of, this person is sad, this action will make them happy. Or, this person is happy, this action will make them sad. Like I remember one time my brother said something that pissed me off, and he kept going on the same topic, and I was like, "I'm sorry, were you still talking?" And I said it in an asshole-ish way that obviously communicated my displeasure, and which was calculated to make him feel bad as well. Fi valuers, to my experience, are more likely to talk about their feelings: "When you said x, it made me feel y." Fe valuers are more like to communicate their feelings like in the example about me and my brother. It's something where you get angry, or happy, or sad, or uncomfortable from the manner of expression, rather than the expression itself being a literal explanation of what the person is feeling.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Yeah, I noticed that aspect of your OP but ... what to say? This is so broad, because I don't think all Fe-valuers are going to present the same visual markers, nor will all Fi-valuers. You have to narrow it down typologically, imo
    This.

    The closest thing to physical manifestations of Fe or Fi I can imagine comes down to simply what is done to receive some specific kind of information. Fe would be more prone to sharing the subjectivities they find with others, whereas Fi valuers uhm . . . wouldn't.
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    Ti/Fe perspective is one of explicit relations and implicit actions. In other words, actions ought to be interpreted, not the other way round. This, I think, is what accounts at least in part for the "toughness" they can show while at the same time being seemingly more emotional... just like you shouldn't assume too much of the relation because they're nice to you in the moment, you shouldn't assume too little because they're being an asshole. It's kind of whimsical from my point of view, relations are taken for granted here, in a way.

    Fi/Te is different; here actions determine relations. This tends to be called "politically correct" here, but it doesn't have anything to do with actual political correctness. It's tangible actions that build or destroy relation. In other words, if someone calls yourself your friend, but their actions don't fit with it, should you trust it? Relationship emerges from what happens, not is established.

    And don't get me wrong here, it's not about what those types do or not (i.e. talk, show emotions, act for each other, consider relationships largely emergent etc.). It's only about the perspective on all of this. Looking at the pyramid and seeing a triangle or a square (or some other figure if you're at a more interesting angle). And it really helps to be aware of it when dealing with the other side. Thing happen similarly - they're probably much more affected by culture than that - but listening to how the parties involved view it shows the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Fi/Te is different; here actions determine relations. This tends to be called "politically correct" here, but it doesn't have anything to do with actual political correctness. It's tangible actions that build or destroy relation. In other words, if someone calls yourself your friend, but their actions don't fit with it, should you trust it? Relationship emerges from what happens, not is established.
    Saying that the actions "determine" relationships doesn't really make sense from what I've observed. I feel that in both merry and serious IE valuers, actions and relationships are determined at the same time, but the part that is implied is switched. So for Fi/Te, the actions done between two people are done in accordance to some implied relationship, and Fe/Ti would mean the relationship exists depending on the nature of the implied actions. It's not that Te creates Fi or Fe creates Ti, or even the other way around; one cannot possibly exist without the other existing at the same time.

    BTW, what would even constitute an implied action? How does that concept work in real life?
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    There aren't any concrete behaviors to use that will not cause more harm than good to your understanding of the differences between Fe-valuers and Fi-valuers.


    Regardless, some general observations:

    I think it helps to start by noticing what environments/people are obviously Fe-egos and obviously Fe-superid. With Fe, the reactions are bigger, the emotions are closer to the surface. Aretha Franklin. Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. Ode to the West Wind. Alice in Wonderland. Exuberance. Fe-superid eats this up, will even do things to provoke an Fe reaction. Emotions on the face, where we can see them. When an Fe-superid person can't tell what another person is feeling (this generally happens with extrovert Fe-HA and introvert Fe-Creative) they will do things to provoke the Fe, as Golden said.

    Fi is cooler. Miles Davis. Will Smith (not Fresh Prince arms flying everywhere Will Smith, but I'm-a-cool-guy Hitch Will Smith). Less excitable, less motion. Emotions aren't worn on their sleeves. I experience Fi valuers as at once distance of remove from the emotions you see on their faces (Fi valuers would probably describe Fe-egos the same way though...).

    Environments that involve a lot of ribbing, jokes at each other's expense, etc. will usually be more Fe (really, more beta). Fe is archetypally that large, loud gathering of people, all talking over one another, constantly interrupting each other, fighting for who can tell the best joke, the best story, whatever. Simmering conversation followed by explosions of laughter. ESEs like to give frequent "I love you"s whenever someone does something that meets their approval.

    Fi environments are archetypally more gentle. Everyone loves a good joke, but there will be less dramatic falling on the floor type laughter. Less shouting from the rooftops.

    Fe is direct knowledge of how to cause motion: internal dynamics of objects. Fe is the awareness of, this person is sad, this action will make them happy. Or, this person is happy, this action will make them sad. Like I remember one time my brother said something that pissed me off, and he kept going on the same topic, and I was like, "I'm sorry, were you still talking?" And I said it in an asshole-ish way that obviously communicated my displeasure, and which was calculated to make him feel bad as well. Fi valuers, to my experience, are more likely to talk about their feelings: "When you said x, it made me feel y." Fe valuers are more like to communicate their feelings like in the example about me and my brother. It's something where you get angry, or happy, or sad, or uncomfortable from the manner of expression, rather than the expression itself being a literal explanation of what the person is feeling.
    I like this a lot

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris
    long post
    yeah that IS good, thanks for sharing!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Saying that the actions "determine" relationships doesn't really make sense from what I've observed. I feel that in both merry and serious IE valuers, actions and relationships are determined at the same time, but the part that is implied is switched. So for Fi/Te, the actions done between two people are done in accordance to some implied relationship, and Fe/Ti would mean the relationship exists depending on the nature of the implied actions. It's not that Te creates Fi or Fe creates Ti, or even the other way around; one cannot possibly exist without the other existing at the same time.

    BTW, what would even constitute an implied action? How does that concept work in real life?
    I get the feeling you disregarded the warning of misunderstanding in the last paragraph, and did exactly that. Might it be so?

    Yes, it's about perspective; however, in my experience, for Fi/Te types it's someone's actions that cause the relation to be reinterpreted. In Ti/Fe, it's the relationship that causes the action to be interpreted (implicity). For example, how it works between ESE - ESI I know: ESE openly admits she expects her actions to be interpreted as those of a relation, while ESI looks at the actions and says, well you don't seem to be much of a relation (and is hurt by it). Then ESE assumes since he "misinterpreted" her actions, it means he assumed the relation wasn't there (and is hurt by it), so she starts reinterpreting his actions in this light (as those of not-of-a-loving-relation). In the end whatever one does gets misinterpreted by the other... yet although it seems very much the same if you look at it from the outside, the change of perspective is vital. They both want to fix it, yet every time they try they "find out" the other person doesn't. (Actually I don't really know who started it, but it's been a loop for a long time and they've become oversensitive to each other's actions.)

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    My issue wasn't a matter of perspective. It was more a question of if in a situation between two people with similar IE values, one range of understanding is understood from the other (Fi from Te or Ti from Fe) or if both are understood at the same time. It seems to me that depending on which IE is stronger in the individual, that aspect of reality will come to light first. As such, saying that "actions determine relations" or "relations determine actions" would indicate that one of those aspects has to known before the other in a discrete order, which I don't really agree with.

    Please tell me if I'm misunderstanding something though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Fi group of friends:

    We joke, too, and tease each other on traits, but it's not done for reaction but to point out that we know each other well enough to make such jokes. More inclination to discussing personal likes, dislikes, private feelings. We're interested in trading personal feelings and experiences, knowing specific people's likes and dislikes. In ideal, we want to enjoy our company but will remind each other that we are there for each other and want to listen to troubles, doubts, and work together to make things better without side-stepping the unpleasant matter. We expect to let people express who they are and not hide it just to make an atmosphere and a time out pleasant, tending to view that as fake and frivolous (a typical Fi perspective).
    The bolded part is exactly right. I remember Gilly was talking about how Ashton was Fe/Ti valuing because he interpreted him making jokes at other people's expenses as something meant solely for emotional arousal, when in fact what you just described was exactly the case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Thus:
    Fe valuers trust displays
    Fi valuers trust words(or the person's word, really)
    Though I appreciate dialogue's ability to communicate information and perspectives, it's my contention that a promise is a comfort to a fool. Am I now invalidated as an Fi-valuer or merely displaying the dominance of pragmatic Ni-Te ego over wait-and-see Se-Fi super-id?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    My issue wasn't a matter of perspective. It was more a question of if in a situation between two people with similar IE values, one range of understanding is understood from the other (Fi from Te or Ti from Fe) or if both are understood at the same time. It seems to me that depending on which IE is stronger in the individual, that aspect of reality will come to light first. As such, saying that "actions determine relations" or "relations determine actions" would indicate that one of those aspects has to known before the other in a discrete order, which I don't really agree with.

    Please tell me if I'm misunderstanding something though.
    Must you take it so literally? It seems no matter how many times I reiterate it's not the case, people keep treating any suggestion of implication between explicit and implicit aspects as a heresy, extrapolating it to a point where it turns socionics upside-down. (And no, it's not just about you personally, it seems to be a pattern. I realize it wasn't obvious initially, but after so many clarifications...)

    Of course a person with strong-but-unvalued element will get this aspect better/sooner/more clearly, but they'll still strive for the other, super-id one, to complete their ego perspective. Like Fe-ego would get the Fi-implied relations and take them for granted (treat them as explicit, valued Ti) where Te-ego would find thinking of relations as explicit easier but not quite getting them, and feeling it's oversimplified. And the former is obviously going to have an advantage as far as Fi aspect are concerned, it would be madness to pretend otherwise. But it doesn't mean their perspective doesn't default towards Ti/Fe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Fe group of friends:

    Loud joking and insults thrown around not meant to be taken seriously. Often teasing someone on something and poking fun at their reaction, seeking a reaction and trying to get people to not take things personally or too seriously and lighten up (but not fake politeness, either, and so 'drama' is more out in the open and dealt with ASAP). "Anything goes" so long as it doesn't ruin the mood. Focus on discussion that engages everyone and focus on doing things together for the fun of it and embellishing things to make it more emotive. Helping a buddy out going through...stuff...in part is to cheer them up and get their mind off of it and have a good time instead of being negative, too serious, and too self-absorbed (a common Fe perspective to Fi style of bonding/hanging out).
    One of the things I never got about some Fe people is how they'll accuse me of "spoiling their mood" as if it was the worst crime ever, lol. Maybe there's something to this pattern...

    Fi group of friends:

    We joke, too, and tease each other on traits, but it's not done for reaction but to point out that we know each other well enough to make such jokes. More inclination to discussing personal likes, dislikes, private feelings. We're interested in trading personal feelings and experiences, knowing specific people's likes and dislikes. In ideal, we want to enjoy our company but will remind each other that we are there for each other and want to listen to troubles, doubts, and work together to make things better without side-stepping the unpleasant matter. We expect to let people express who they are and not hide it just to make an atmosphere and a time out pleasant, tending to view that as fake and frivolous (a typical Fi perspective).
    (to the whole description really)

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Must you take it so literally? It seems no matter how many times I reiterate it's not the case, people keep treating any suggestion of implication between explicit and implicit aspects as a heresy, extrapolating it to a point where it turns socionics upside-down. (And no, it's not just about you personally, it seems to be a pattern. I realize it wasn't obvious initially, but after so many clarifications...)
    I'm just trying to understand what exactly you're trying to get at, but clearly there's some sort of miscommunication between us. I don't see any sort of implication between explicit and implicit aspects of socionics as heresy, in fact that I'm agreeing with you in that regard. The problem seems to be a matter of the how the word "determine" is used. Is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Of course a person with strong-but-unvalued element will get this aspect better/sooner/more clearly, but they'll still strive for the other, super-id one, to complete their ego perspective. Like Fe-ego would get the Fi-implied relations and take them for granted (treat them as explicit, valued Ti) where Te-ego would find thinking of relations as explicit easier but not quite getting them, and feeling it's oversimplified. And the former is obviously going to have an advantage as far as Fi aspect are concerned, it would be madness to pretend otherwise. But it doesn't mean their perspective doesn't default towards Ti/Fe.
    Again, that's not really the issue I'm trying to bring up. I'm talking about relationships between people of shared IE values and how their syncing up really plays out. We seem to be miscommunicating a lot, and I have no idea why.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Fe group of friends:

    Loud joking and insults thrown around not meant to be taken seriously. Often teasing someone on something and poking fun at their reaction, seeking a reaction and trying to get people to not take things personally or too seriously and lighten up (but not fake politeness, either, and so 'drama' is more out in the open and dealt with ASAP). "Anything goes" so long as it doesn't ruin the mood. Focus on discussion that engages everyone and focus on doing things together for the fun of it and embellishing things to make it more emotive. Helping a buddy out going through...stuff...in part is to cheer them up and get their mind off of it and have a good time instead of being negative, too serious, and too self-absorbed (a common Fe perspective to Fi style of bonding/hanging out).

    Fi group of friends:

    We joke, too, and tease each other on traits, but it's not done for reaction but to point out that we know each other well enough to make such jokes. More inclination to discussing personal likes, dislikes, private feelings. We're interested in trading personal feelings and experiences, knowing specific people's likes and dislikes. In ideal, we want to enjoy our company but will remind each other that we are there for each other and want to listen to troubles, doubts, and work together to make things better without side-stepping the unpleasant matter. We expect to let people express who they are and not hide it just to make an atmosphere and a time out pleasant, tending to view that as fake and frivolous (a typical Fi perspective).
    I also found this interesting. As an valuer, I know that some people seem to handle certain subjects and certain insults better than others might. I can flip off this guy because I know he won't mind. I can go easy on the emoticons with that friend because he won't take it seriously anyway. I wouldn't say, though, that we "point out" our relationship by doing these things, as in drawing attention to the fact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    Thanks for all the responses, guys. I think I have a pretty good understanding of the abstract theory behind the two, but what I'm most interested in right now is practical examples.

    As in, I'd like to see what Fe/Fi valuers look like when they do Fe/Fi valuing things. I ask this because it's difficult to take the abstract and apply it to real life without having seen what it looks like. I know that there is no "true" manifestation of Fe or Fi and that the people with these elements will still have a great deal of diversity between them, but are there any "stereotypical" examples of what they look like?
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    Quote Originally Posted by somavision View Post
    Fe/Ti kills for fun
    Te/Fi kills for profit
    Te/Fi kills fun
    Fe/Ti kills profit

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Fe group of friends:

    Loud joking and insults thrown around not meant to be taken seriously. Often teasing someone on something and poking fun at their reaction, seeking a reaction and trying to get people to not take things personally or too seriously and lighten up (but not fake politeness, either, and so 'drama' is more out in the open and dealt with ASAP). "Anything goes" so long as it doesn't ruin the mood. Focus on discussion that engages everyone and focus on doing things together for the fun of it and embellishing things to make it more emotive. Helping a buddy out going through...stuff...in part is to cheer them up and get their mind off of it and have a good time instead of being negative, too serious, and too self-absorbed (a common Fe perspective to Fi style of bonding/hanging out).

    Fi group of friends:

    We joke, too, and tease each other on traits, but it's not done for reaction but to point out that we know each other well enough to make such jokes. More inclination to discussing personal likes, dislikes, private feelings. We're interested in trading personal feelings and experiences, knowing specific people's likes and dislikes. In ideal, we want to enjoy our company but will remind each other that we are there for each other and want to listen to troubles, doubts, and work together to make things better without side-stepping the unpleasant matter. We expect to let people express who they are and not hide it just to make an atmosphere and a time out pleasant, tending to view that as fake and frivolous (a typical Fi perspective).
    this.

    Though Fe people can be mega-fake polite for the sake of the mood. In particular LIIs ime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rps3y View Post
    Though I appreciate dialogue's ability to communicate information and perspectives, it's my contention that a promise is a comfort to a fool. Am I now invalidated as an Fi-valuer or merely displaying the dominance of pragmatic Ni-Te ego over wait-and-see Se-Fi super-id?
    Well Fi is good at reading BS. So whereas Fe detects BS in how people present themselves, Fi will detect BS based on the actual words, vibes and history of the person.
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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    2Pac is
    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

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