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Thread: ESSAY: Why Socionics Only Kind of Sucks

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    Default ESSAY: Why Socionics Only Kind of Sucks

    NOTE: I'll be stating the obvious throughout much of this, but there are people here who I think need to hear it.

    Is Socionics "Real?"
    The answer, I've come to conclude, is: It's about as real as a peach.

    "What the fuck is Baby talking about?" you ask. "Shit! He's gone all INTj on our asses."

    Now before you mistake your bouncy brassiere for testicles, I assure you I'm quite sane, and once I lead you down my convoluted train of thought, you can be quite confident of this.

    You see, this afternoon, sometime between lunch and dinner (let's call it lunchner <- Oy, that's a Germanic mass of consonants if I ever saw one) Baby was enjoying a peach. It was a beautiful, locally-grown peach ripened to fiery reds and oranges. His olfactory facilities bombarded with the perfume, a heady amalgam of springtime and blue skies and country air. His fingers carressed the soft, kindly fuzz while his lips met the flesh, a charming sunshine yellow. And the juice and flavor just brimming with peachy peachiness. A fulfilling and hearty lunchner indeed.

    However, as any chemist worth his sodium chloride will tell you, the peach doesn't really exist. Actually, let's take it further and take the physicist's mindset, and realize that the peach does indeed exist, but not as Baby experienced it. Had his eyes been adjusted to percieve a much finer spectrum of radiant energy, the peach would become imperceptible amongst all the other particles (bouncing off of each other at precise angles and frequencies) surrounding it, made up of even finer particles, and so forth. The sweet taste of the peach is nothing more than the fungiform, filiform, foliate and vallate on the surface of the tongue recieving molecular information and sending it via electrical impulse to the brain which can render it as any combination of sweet, sour, spicy, and salty. And even the feel of the fruit is, in itself, a dulled and numbed experience subject to the confines of our relatively sensitive nerve endings.

    As a famous neuroscientist once wrote: We never experience the world as it truly is fundamentally. We only experience the world as rendered through our limited nervous system.

    "Dude, what's this got to do with Socionics?" you ask. Get that NASA-owned property out of your ass for a minute and chill. I'm about to tell you.

    So far as we know, Socionics has its most fundamental basis in biology. Now before you say "But what about the nurture part? That's a big part of it, right?" Of course it is, genius. But you'll notice I said "biology" and not "genetics." There's a difference. Genetics is how you are wired from the get-go. Biology accounts for not only genetics, but also everything that happens on a molecular level afterwards.

    All psychology has its basis on the molecular level. Something happens - neurotransmitters like Serotonin, Norepinephrine, and Dopamine (the like of which has been covered ad nauseam by a certain hyperactive member of this forum); hormones like testosterone, estrogen, and adrenalin; not to mention the fundamental nature of thought as electric energy; all these factors work their magic (or fail to, in the case of deficiency) in intricate combinations so that we experience the heartache that accompanies love, the palpitations that accompany dread, the utter horniness of being horny, and so on.

    In short, it's messy business. So messy, in fact, that scientists have yet to pinpoint exactly how emotion aligns with patterns of release and metabolism of these basic materials of humanity. (And before you try and tell me that scientists have - go and find a neurobiologist near you. Pull him away from his work for five minutes, ask him what love is, and watch him collapse into paroxisms of maniacal laughter.)

    What the laymen at present can deal with is the peach as apparent to our five senses and intellect. We can deal with the rough outline of what happens when biology goes awry by applying the more generalized lexicon of psychology. The peach is unripe. God knows what happened on the molecular level when the plant has yet to convert chemicals into sugars. All we know is that it's green, tastes unpleasant and brackish, and is hard as a tennis ball. The old woman is schizophrenic. Scientists can get the rough workings on the molecular level - proteins and neurotransmitters and hormones and all that jizzle in different combinations and different - down. But Psychologists deal with that messy mass of chemicals and conclude: "Crazy."

    The fact is: we don't know precisely what occurs in each individual instance and can only apply a limited vocabulary to describe it. So it is with Socionics. In Socionics, we're dealing with rough patterns of thought, which have their basis on a fundamentally molecular level which are released and recombined and transmogrified in any number of combinations for any number of reasons (envirnmental strain going against the grain of how our brains and bodies are wired to react to such stimuli).


    The functions are rough labels (you'll notice I use the word "rough" a lot... no it's not because I'm a pervert. You're the pervert! It's because it really is messy business.) we apply to something if it's "close enough" to a certain conglomeration of factors. (I'll be posting my versions of the functions someday soon.) And types are even more crude labels we apply to a pattern of patterns. And intertype relations even more sketchy.

    This is why Socionics seems to become more diluted in accuracy as we stem outwards from the specific (functions) to the general (intertype relations). This is why not everyone will fit neatly into a certain type category. This is why people of the same type can be drastically different in some instances. And such and so forth.

    We are dealing with the peach as we can understand it. Not as it actually is.

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    Oh, and these are things that I never want to see ever again on this forum but probably am hoping for a lost cause:

    - Topics such as "What type can speed read War and Peace in three seconds?"

    - Replies like "STs are awesome harpists" that are not sarcastic or qualified with a "most of the time" or "in my experience"

    - V.I. threads with nothing but photos

    - Threads that go on for 100 pages for people who have pretty much scoped all 16 types in various other threads and decided that none fit

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    Thank you for stating what I've been trying to say in a more comprehensible way.

    Unfortunately 17 4pe)(s -> ...| []. t/\ 4[+] l.-
    |--\\>1\|g (lord of hades) ^

    apeologies

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    Creepy-Diana

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    .

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    Default Re: Essay: Is Socionics "Real?" or Reconciliation

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    We are dealing with the peach as we can undersand it. Not as it actually is.
    Yes, I've been considering such lately myself.

    I just foudn a book callled "the Tao of physics", looks really interesting.

    "Illusions". But it appears to be 'our way' in this material world, for now, perhaps.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Socionics "is" not the problem. The way you present your arguement "is".
    Remember to keep things simple and not any simpler like Einstein once said.

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    the difference between socionics and neurobiology being the latter working torwards the discovery of a causal mechanism, eventually relegating the former to the margins of history.

    we should also acknowledge that materialism tells us that we cannot ever approach the "real". science will never ultimately reach its goal, but new theories come closer to the "real", thereby making old theories less "real". so is socionics "real"? i think it more accurate to call it stale.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    BLOVIATION.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Thank you for stating what I've been trying to say in a more comprehensible way.

    Unfortunately 17 4pe)(s -> ...| []. t/\ 4[+] l.-
    |--\\>1\|g (lord of hades) ^

    apeologies
    Lol the fourier pic cracked me up
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    DON’T YOU PEOPLE REALIZE WHAT WE’RE DEALING WITH HERE??? I’VE FREED YOU FROM THE TYRANNY OF TYPE THEORY!!! NO MORE OBSESSING OVER AN IMPRACTICAL AND CRUDE CATEGORIZATION!!! GO FORTH AND ASSERT YOUR INDIVIDUALITY!
    Thank you, Auvi!
    , Se-sub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraus
    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    DON’T YOU PEOPLE REALIZE WHAT WE’RE DEALING WITH HERE??? I’VE FREED YOU FROM THE TYRANNY OF TYPE THEORY!!! NO MORE OBSESSING OVER AN IMPRACTICAL AND CRUDE CATEGORIZATION!!! GO FORTH AND ASSERT YOUR INDIVIDUALITY!
    Thank you, Auvi!
    A simple “Thank you” is all I ask for.

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    You didn't clarify anything. All of this was obvious to begin with.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    I know I’m stating the obvious, but a few months ago, when I was all hung up on reconciling Socionics with practical fact and reconciling my own individuality in the face of Socionics, I wish someone had clued me in on this shit.
    there's no need to prevent anyone else from gaining a higher understanding through existential angst. i say embrace the angst and serve it up to others. i do appreciate seeing the process; thank you for sharing.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    It now seems time for an important quote:
    "My scheme of typology is only a scheme of orientation. There is such a factor as introversion, there is such a factor as extraversion. The classification of individuals means nothing, nothing at all. It is only the instrumentarium for the practical psychologist to explain for instance, the husband to a wife or vice versa." ~Carl Jung
    Which kind of ties in with:
    "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." ~Socrates
    In essence, it would seem to me that (endlessly) studying typology simply leads to rationalizations of behaviour that doesn't integrate with reality.

    I began to get hooked on Socionics relationships like believing that I could meet an ESFj girl and she would eventually fall hopelessly in love with me because according to Socionics we have this notion of "Duality". I later met a happily married ESTj-INFj couple who potentially had their "true love"/"duality" except they never studied Socionics to find it, it just happened like perhaps it should.

    There seems to me like a fine line between reason (rationality) and co-incidence (irrationality) where one cannot exist without the other.

    I can, if I wanted, use the "perfect" rationalization that I equate to an INTj in order to default on life's problems rather then say look at typology more in a trivial way and think, i need to act more "EST---ish" if i want that job or whatever else though of course it "is" always easier to default.

    PS. The same would seem the case for other classification systems/mysticisms like Astrology e.g. maybe i need to become more "scorpio-ish" to achieve my goals -- whatever that actually means in reality.
    Remember to keep things simple and not any simpler like Einstein once said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkside
    You didn't clarify anything. All of this was obvious to begin with.

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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    I guess I've said pretty much nothing of value to anyone but myself then. Carry on.
    gross over generalization. continue posting with your infpness in quality and quantity.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Oh, and by the way, I am ESFj, and any deviations from the regular ESFj norms shall be attributed to type differences.

    STOP TRYING TO DEFINE ME BY SOCIONICS
    it is too fun. and you are not esfj. esfj would never use the term deviations.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy
    and you are not esfj. esfj would never use the term deviations.
    STOP TYPECASTING YOU FUCKER
    typecasting is irritating for your accepting function?
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Nah, it's just annoying to everyone.
    , Se-sub
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    Stop using "is" as it will only bring more controversy, well, at least, according to myself and what i understand of General Semantics.

    In fact I re-do my sig with a "~" sign i.e. an approximation not an absolute.
    Remember to keep things simple and not any simpler like Einstein once said.

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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

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    for the record, i used the term "infpness" as short hand for a certain ineffable quality that i appreciate in the posts, not as an effort to consciously or unconsciously typecast anyone. i shall, however, continue to typecast sporadically for comedic content as i see fit. as an LII, i have a liscence to be sarcastic. furthermore, can anyone really complain about being typecasted on a forum devoted to types?
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Edited for gayness.
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    from one LII to another, i understand where you come from.
    Remember to keep things simple and not any simpler like Einstein once said.

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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

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    i was simply appreciating the logic of what was meant by "infpness".

    zat 'is all (in professor-like tone).
    Remember to keep things simple and not any simpler like Einstein once said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    WHAT IS IT WITH YOU FAKE INTJS AND YOUR EMO SELF MASTURBATION OF EACH OTHER
    bah! you can't have self masturbation of each other! then it wouldn't be masturbation. please!
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    NO TYPECASTING OR DISCUSSION ABOUT ANYTHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH TYPES OR FUNCTIONS DUH

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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    NO TYPECASTING OR DISCUSSION ABOUT ANYTHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH TYPES OR FUNCTIONS DUH
    Fine. You've made your point. Baby is not as clever as you think he thinks he is. Obviously not what I meant. I don't know what implications I had for the discussion on the forum.
    i dont think anyone was trying to question your cleverness.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Default Liberation

    Liberation is always good. I always stated that mind is corrupt but not your soul. There is a core to a personality which does not change in structure - you can call it genetics, biology or what ever you wish.

    I enjoyed the ride but I don't think it is a good idea to jump from one extreme to another ...if only it allows a qualitative change in the way you think and opens the mind.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    @ Baby
    Congratulations.
    You are a very good writer.
    Now where did that peach post disappear...
    Having said that the trouble with identical relations (and yes, indeed, absence of essence, is the creative function of INFJs) is that it is awfully hard to genuinely admire each other. The quality of delivery is second to none, but the message itself is just rehashing the old arguments for god knows how "manyeth" time. So on with the criticism....


    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Oh, and these are things that I never want to see ever again on this forum but probably am hoping for a lost cause:

    - Topics such as "What type can speed read War and Peace in three seconds?"
    Actually a fairly interesting empirical question. Of course absence of evidence is no evidence of absence. We can know that some people with some types can do it - but that is about it then.

    - Replies like "STs are awesome harpists" that are not sarcastic or qualified with a "most of the time" or "in my experience"
    Good point. I think it is only reasonable that we should qualify our replies with disclaimers: I can only speak from my own experience, etc.

    - V.I. threads with nothing but photos
    Visual Identification is certainly not everyone's cup of tea, but often times it does work surprsingly well. Why? Who knows? Maybe it is in the genes. In any case visual identification is still very much a matter of amount experience with typing. The more people you have reliably typed the better you probably are. And if it bothers you why should others be prevented from practising it?

    - Threads that go on for 100 pages for people who have pretty much scoped all 16 types in various other threads and decided that none fit
    It is kind of funny how much this socionics thingy seems to fascinate people. I think once you get hooked, it is hard to get rid of the addiction until you have at least reached a high level of confidence about your own type. Perhaps we should warn people in advance: Stay away from socionics. It can seriously endanger your mental health and take up much of your free time. :wink: And in the end absolutely no result is guaranteed.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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