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Thread: IEI-LSE conflict relations (machine trans)

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    Default IEI-LSE conflict relations (machine trans)

    This is long, it's Strateivskaya, and I'm not going to try to clean it up at all:

    Intuitive-ethical introvert - logical-sensory extravert

    "Yesenin" Shtirlic "

    1.Esenin - Stirlitz. Conflict of general plan

    The first thing that comes to mind when it comes to this conflict dyad - the stereotype cruel "man - machine - Stirlitz treats delicate and inspired Esenina. Right before my eyes gets a sort of soulless "owner" Soames Forsyte, suffocating his iron Domostroi gentle and romantic Irene (about which the reader probably knows that she got married for convenience, the husband refused to physical intimacy and had a lover on the side.)

    But let's digress for a time of literary characters and of how this conflict takes place in the homes of English ladies and gentlemen. Let's see what happens on our Russian soil.

    Here, just as in any other conflict dyad at first everything is cute and charming. Fragile and delicate Yesenin (meekness and deference vaguely reminiscent of Dostoevsky) produces Shtirlitsa most impressed: "If you saw the man's face - that person is an angel!"

    For its part, and Stirlitz Yesenin seems the perfect partner - a strong, courageous, hardworking, willing to offer their help and support. And who does not like Yesenin seek this help? He's like nobody needs to be protected and carries a lifetime looking for a reliable and caring protector. (Sometimes, even in plain text begs to wards: "Yeah-ah, some good, they watch over me ... And even if someone cared !..")

    In building their relationship, Yesenin tries to consider and beneficial to take advantage of personal dignity and social benefits of their partner. Much depends on self-Esenina, and from awareness of the benefits and advantages of their own position in the system. IEI ambitious as any aristocrat would work "to improve and look for partners who can bring a lot of their collaborative relationship, many bestow, bestow benefits that a special thanks to (at first) was adopted Esenina and encouraged them in every way. Yesenin with low self-esteem is satisfied with the patronage of people with modest resources and modest means: encouraging their willingness to share the latest, cultivating their propensity to self-sacrifice, makes them no rest, and the term "return to work on."

    The charm of the early stage of relationships are supported primarily the ability to Esenina beautiful and romantic care of a woman he liked, the ability to create atmosphere relaxed and carefree fun. Yesenin as nobody is able to relax the person - even konfliktera - and especially at the early stage of relationship when they are still easy and relaxed character.

    But Stirlitz just, and belongs to the type of people who very rarely and is particularly difficult to relax. Therefore, this whole romantic extravaganza, all these sweetest "nightingale warbling" start to scare and cause for concern Shtirlitsa because they consume his time. (And time - is the most expensive and most scarce resource of all, its available in stock.) Feeling that Yesenin simply stealing his time, Stirlitz starts rudely interrupted Esenina, destroying his castles in the air and mirages, and this raises howls of protest and dissatisfaction with his konfliktera, provoking accusations of his passing into the scandals and tantrums: "What a brute you! What you are cruel! That's because something you nobody likes! "It is clear that this information is balm to the soul Shtirlitsa does not shed. Negative attitude toward themselves, as well as negative feedback Stirlitz takes very painful: the aspect of the ethics of relations - suggestive of its function!

    Yesenin very quickly notices this and other vulnerabilities Stirlitz and, with his characteristic as (involyutoru) subconscious tendency to destruction of an unreliable and unstable, begins at this point in a purposeful and destructive influence.

    (In beta - square rather than though - something to "be not like others" - in the house include "not from the" yard, food and clothes to buy, "not" shop - to immediately undergo the most severe criticism, the coarsest , cynical libel and slander on the part of the beta - involyutorov - Esenina and Zhukov. Yesenin here will be the "first Zapevalov." In the squares of aristocrats (and especially in beta - quad) is dangerous to fall in "awkward position" because it will always make a person subject to information warfare. And if in addition it will actually "keep" or "stay the course" - this is sufficient reason to oust him, trample, considering as an annoying obstacle in the way of society, which must necessarily be eliminated.)

    Trying to compare successes and achievements with Stirlitz Yesenin fully relax and harm the Shtirlitsa a personal opinion and the opinion of society (belittles the logic of relations), understates his achievements and his self-esteem, curse over each of its failures (mostly fictional than real) that then allows him to turn the logic of the situation up to the contrary, intensify it logical "turncoats" to believe in him and is already on this basis castigate Shtirlitsa (on any fictional occasion), drive back to "the margins" (as "superfluous" and "weak link "in the system), to displace the general plans and prospects (" not wanted "), referring to him as an unsuccessful;, Ica, which" way and so wasted, "because he still has" always late "and" all missed. " (And that did not have time to miss, then he will pull out of the hands, borrow or vytrebuyut - it would be only a desire to further humiliate him and force to work on impact).

    Primarily, this of course applies to problematic aspects Shtirlitsa - Mobilization "intuition of time" (-b.i.4). Yesenin make Shtirlitsa behind on all counts, lose everything and everywhere, even if all the forces that try to prevent this.

    Yesenin able to absorb and own and other people's time, pulling it to its own purpose and pleasure. Esenina always have time for as long as he needs (and in the opinion of an outsider - even more than enough) and its main problem - than would be the benefit and the benefit for themselves this time to occupy. In Shtirlitsa extra time does not happen, he his never enough even for the most necessary things (which is a cause for special stinging criticism and ridicule Esenina, who often speaks konflikteru: "How I hate this fuss! Do you even shake hands, when you're in a hurry! Watch disgusting ... makes my time does not end ... ").

    And speaking of matters: While partners interact on a far distance and each of them engaged in their affairs, the conflict between them does not take particularly acute form, although the tension is increasing: Yesenin already want to check Stirlitz to come to his "soul" in trust, make him more likely to remember and often think of myself, I want to know what his success, what and how he does, I want to reassign him to a portion of their cases and concerns.

    But the main problems and frustrations occur when konfliktery begin to live together when there is a first distribution of their rights and responsibilities. (When Esenina for the first time there and reluctant to take any - that the responsibility and obligation. At the same time "includes" and "complex of six" Esenina, and it begins to be carried out persistent and debilitating struggle for a dominant place in the system for the concessions , compromises and privileges. which results in such a way that all rights remain with Esenina, and all the responsibilities go to Stirlitz. Yesenin as quirky and manipulative "Ethics" brings under its legal privileges tricky ethical background and begins to indicate Stirlitz what he has right, and on that - no. A suggestive as the ethics of relations aspect of his Stirlitz inspired, (although aware that his partner durit).

    Having said his exclusive rights, Yesenin still agrees to assume certain responsibilities and, (knowing full well that after a - while Stirlitz himself to take away from him.)

    Why? And because everything exclusively all that is entrusted Yesenin holds them very badly, at the last moment and with the biggest losses. And Stirlitz as a man accustomed to value the quality of work does this state of affairs can not accept. Negligence and carelessness Esenina act on it depressing, are perceived as meanness, treachery, sabotage as frank, as a grave crime, which is necessary to suppress and for which should be punished. Worse than not, when a person takes this case only to spoil this thing. And just to ensure that it is a matter never charging.

    Although, of course, this conclusion Stirlitz comes at once. Tom has preceded many persuasions addressed to partner with a request to perform an errand. At that Yesenin usually replies that he is to this request, not yet "ripe", giving it clear that before this case do not ripen never - nothing to even attempt to assign him the case. If your partner will still insist that he do the job very badly - so that the partner is a million times sorry about that. Yes, and substitute partner for trouble at last (in order of vengeance and punishment) in order to continue listening in a timely manner to the delicate hints Esenina respected his personal opinion, and personal right to refuse any - any kind of work (Yesenin a partnership does not come to In order to plow a partner, in what is trying to convince Shtirlitsa (as well as any other partner) in all possible and available means.)

    In addition to intentional acts "not in the mood not vpopad, except pre-planned and orchestrated malicious, there are still many other unfortunate accident, according to which everything that makes Yesenin is hopelessly ruined and broken. Everything he touched his hand, instantly turns into the trash and scrap. (Remembers a mileyshaya lady: "Just moved into a new apartment, as he the same for freshly painted door hung what - something cheesy hooks on Velcro - I did not ask! And on hooks hung heaviest string bags of groceries. Hooks and immediately collapsed. Now All door and stripped of any kind has no "need to re-paint the door and pick the color of the walls repainted. And this - what expense and what darkness!" Well, both - you think a person has reason or not? ")

    All these acts konfliktera Stirlitz cause immense suffering and deliver endless trouble. Stirlitz tired remake Yesenin assigned the case, tired to fix (or update) is hopelessly corrupt them things. In Shtirlitsa do not have time and no longer remains a force. But that's not all his troubles. Every second, every minute, every day partner Yesenin teaches him more and more new surprises: that he was sent to pay the bills and he has spent on the road (or lost) all the money, then sent him out shopping, but he again returned to the wrong . ("We were preparing to move to the country. I have it sent it to the nearest department store to buy new mattresses and pillows. He spent all his money on two luxurious bathrobes for myself ... I explained this to the fact that I could not decide what colors it is more appropriate . And I decided to buy the robes of both colors (the other was not), so you do not regret my choice. ")

    Of course, one might get the impression that Yesenin something - something misunderstood in the task entrusted to him. But one can not agree, sending the man into the store, clearly describe him not only what he needed to buy, but all what he fly in any case can not be - it's no fantasy is not enough! Come know what he wants to waste money. And then, because as it is unpleasant to constantly remind the adult that purchases the remainder from the surrender of bringing home a must, but do not hide in their pockets and do not spend their every whim (Programme aspects of involutional intuition of time (-b.i.1) induces Esenina to conduct bold experiments with chance and opportunities, allowing it to succumb, "rebate" to his temptation, allows him to forget about the responsibility of the partner, convincing himself: "This time I will do exactly as I want and see the result, and after that decide, as I do: as requested, or as I advantageous and convenient .".). So, of course, the problem is not so much the impracticality of Esenina, but in his providence as "hoarders drive" - in his very conscious effort to grab for themselves as much wealth as possible to delay on his side valuable, important and useful things - that is, here again, acting all the same "set of six" - the desire to "use" of others, that others are not "used" you. "

    And with this complex Esenina Stirlitz have to fight constantly. He sees great that Yesenin from him constantly that - that conceals, perepryatyvaet and zanachivaet "money. Yesenin as fox, makes a huge amount taynichkov and zanachek around the house. (As one woman recalled: "Somehow anticipating from work and saw: sitting on the bed and delicious chocolates." Where? "- Ask -" After all, the house had no money! "(I have to hide from him long ago) - "Really?" - replied - "I did not know and found" - and then explained: "I was a stash." And then he added: "But now it's gone.")

    But the "nest egg", of course, is always there. And that is why they appear: provident Yesenin prepares them "for a rainy day," "in reserve" in case of a long lack of money or unemployment (which at its apparent carelessness and impracticality is a serious problem for him). And these challenges and changes for the worse it is, of course, anticipates and waits. Software function prudent Esenina - involutional intuition of time (-b.i.1) includes a premonition of global system changes and related (again, systemic) damage, and global rearrangements, mutations (and associated with all this trouble) It also includes and mistrust, and suspicion, and a penchant for intrigue as the ability to effectively improve their own business and impair the most efficient and most inconspicuous way for himself. Therefore, the mask is a light-hearted simpleton for Esenina and more reliable cover his true intentions and goals: He can always say that he lost the money allocated to it or what - is another valuable and necessary thing - even if it is then there is in the wrong place for it. Absent-mindedness - that you do against this? Such a man he is!

    This camouflage is just carelessness and allows Yesenin with the most innocent air pump values in your pocket. And Stirlitz all notices. Realizes that he just rob and steal, but the help it can not do anything because Yesenin by his actions brings stunning Shtirlitsa ethical dimension, for all he has a ready answer: "Yes, it does not bring the salary! So what? Should I take care of themselves when you expel me? I myself and the apartment and the furniture still need to buy ... "- that is openly acknowledged in the systematic outflow of material resources, it held, with far-reaching and well-defined intentions.

    Delicate allusions to the fact that he abused the trust a stranger and a parasite on someone else's property in this success have not. In this case, his conscience is useless to cry out: "Yes, I -" Gigolo ", but so what? And proud of it! This is not me you chose - it's me you chose "(It means:" and you'll use "). Thus, the secret appropriation of material resources partner - is the guardian for Esenina convenient way to receive and collect a "surrender", he needed a guarantee of its future prosperity. (Of course, from the perspective of such a position or "Alfonso" or "parasite" not be humiliating, because all this is exploitation pure and simple.) When the outflow of material means of causing irreparable damage to a large budget partner - the guardian (this, after which he can no longer recover his former financial situation), and "surrender" means in taynichkah Esenina accumulated more than enough (so if the shovel, because everything!) Yesenin sees fit to leave this worked out by himself and has exhausted its potential possibilistic "eco - system."

    Attempts (precautionary) Shtirlitsa break these dangerous and uncomfortable for him relationships - also are not always successful. And it is not only that Stirlitz as emotivist - objectivist and as a man of the Fourth quadra (dominated aspect of corporate ethics) cherishes established partnership relations - even if they are painful for him. The problem is not only that the two interact here emotivista manipulating the ethics and do not want to break yet izzhivshie themselves ethical context - is not the case.

    Even if Stirlitz and "ripen" before having to throw away his "torturer" for the door, it does not meet his expectations partner, his provident konflikter Yesenin-up to a certain (they themselves appointed) term does not allow him to do so, because pursuing a completely defined goals and builds some plans that do not allow Stirlitz destroy. And therefore take in advance a number of precautionary measures, which include, blackmail, threats and intimidation, and debilitating psychological terror, which he keeps Shtirlitsa a certain moral dependence, binds its business initiative, does not allow for active and decisive action.

    In most cases, these actions are ethical and intuitive nature.

    Ethical action and creative methods combinable emotional pressure Yesenin makes Shtirlitsa change your mind, if it is already overdue. It all comes into play: the grueling hours of scandals, then gives way meekness, gentleness and kindness, and the stormy, frenzied hysteria, changing love idyll. And when it comes it, this is the "Idyll", Yesenin tries to behave in a way that Stirlitz he did not want this separation.

    As far as intuitive measures, there are already actively suppresses Yesenin Shtirlitsa, systematically and purposefully understating his self-esteem. With the sophisticated cynicism, he makes Stirlitz most negative opinions about him (about Stirlitz), including in them all, only not negotiable. He always says Stirlitz how all speak badly about him (Shtirlitsa (!) Work and methods of leadership, about what all the low opinion of his professional and intellectual level (level of ethical needless to say!), How All it hurt and angry about how much he (Shtirlitsa) enemies, and how all these enemies pounce on him as soon as he (Yesenin) - his loyal friend and defender - from Shtirlitsa leave.

    In speeches Esenina (or rather, in their psychological treatment - otherwise it will not name) Stirlitz sees everything that happens to him in some wild and distorted perspective, as in a distorting mirror.

    Example:
    Woman - Stirlitz by fourteen marriage with konflikterom fell into severe depression, and turned to a psychologist to clarify her whether she's such a bad, incompetent, hopelessly stupid and useless people like her about it every day, says her husband, or that it has any place - other reasons? She spoke of her immense and productive work in various scientific fields, told of rave reviews, which caused her work with domestic and foreign experts. Told how, at the instigation of her husband she often changed the specialty because, contrary to all reviews, he is constantly inspired her that she was - ignorant and worthless loser. Told me how constantly improve their qualifications in order to persuade her husband to return and call to him at least some - his respect. Told how fainted from fatigue and burnout, because the day rehearsed a complete change of home and work loads, and at night to educate ourselves.

    So when the psychologist, after hearing this sad confession, suggested that, apparently, the husband over her just-for fun and just probably doing it out of envy and public - that the complexes of inferiority (in fact the way it is! ) - a remark the woman seemed not to hear, skip past the ears, wondering what - something about his, and then asked: "Do you know ... He advises me to try his hand at literature. Do you think I get? "

    Shtirlitsa problem in the fact that he was being focused on compassionate and merciful (software ethics) Dostoevsky does not understand the cruel sarcasm, by which manipulates them Yesenin not understand that he makes fun of him. And this is especially funny for him konfliktera. That's really really, what needs to be a jerk to not understand that at you being bullied! One is his laugh and have already convinced the intellectual limitations of his partner. However, the fact that the essence of this fun is not captured Stirlitz - is also quite natural: as in this case was carried out too thin and sniper exact a psychological game. In this case, Yesenin "joke" is on what is one of the leading property quadra-fourth over the fact that Shtirlitsa sacred and immutable, over what stimulates and activates its professional and creative activities, filling it with life and meaning of existence - of creative self-realization of his personality, to develop its full potential. (Y Shtirlitsa aspect of intuition opportunities at the position of an activation function (+ ch.i.6) and is a priority value of the dyad and quadra, the Esenina - in positions of observation (+ ch.i.7) and is repressed and despised value in the dyad and squares. (In the beta - the square, where, under certain conditions to full flower blooms mediocrity, made fun of too nimble wiseacres causing their successes sense of inferiority in the vast majority (such as all "), mediocre and ordinary people.

    This explains why Stirlitz even suggest he could not in the actions of a partner - or a trick! Yes, be it a person at least some intellectual qualities, though he Leonardo da Vinci (also, incidentally, Stirlitz) - even he, after a brief contact with konflikterom would have questioned their own intellectual abilities: Is it possible to make fun of the fact that a person's greatest asset - over the intellectual development of his personality!

    We should not think that Yesenin impunity affords these dangerous games of mere love of risk or out of hatred for konflikteru. Yesenin confident enough in their positions. Nobody throw him out until he is ready to leave him out. (The same applies to the material relations: let's not forget that the accumulation of wealth and the strengthening of financial position - Suggestion Esenina and software installation of its dual dyad. So, the issue he takes very seriously.

    Even leaving the house konfliktera Yesenin not forget about them posted taynichkah and "stash".

    Lida. 37 flight Shtirlic:

    "When we went home with him, we had an agreement that he would occasionally come over their own stuff - letters or books. When he left, he immediately just could not or did not have time to bring along. This arrangement was a concession on my part, but too long to wait until he gets his things and frees them from my apartment, I could not imagine. I'm not comfortable, I have my own plans. When I told him I was going to change the locks, he gave me a real scandal. Threatened that if I do that he will break them, it will flood the outside with glue, and I can not go to insert the key. I hate when my things spoil, and from there you can expect everything, so I decided that this would be my last assignment. We agreed that at first he will take away all their possessions, and then I changed the lock. And so, for several years, he occasionally stated in my house, and that - pick up something. Nip and his own, and someone else, and then disappear for a while. Keys for a long time remained before him, and of - of that I did not feel secure in their home. I remember that I like - that came with his new friend home. In an apartment in every room is a light, thundering music in the kitchen, opened the refrigerator and my "ex", lying in bed, smoking and watching videos. It turns out he wanted me to make a pleasant surprise and was very surprised that I was not overjoyed when he arrives. My new friend was offended and immediately left, and I still long to deal with this ... Then there was another "surprise" at this time last. It turned out this way: he gave me a long time to persuade him to swap our coffee tables. At first I did not agree, but it took me so that I - still lost. "Exchange" he, too, has made in my absence. When I came home from work, the room was not a coffee table or large dining table. Furniture was moved and placed in a room on - because of that. I phoned him immediately and demanded an explanation. He did not explain anything to me, but pretended to be offended and said something like: "Phew, what a brute you are! What do you trash! You never appreciate the fact that you do! You've got the room and it was closely! And now you are well: spacious and cozy! I set up the table and without you everything is beautiful! But you never have appreciated! You - trash, and I do not want to talk to you, "and hung up. At that moment I was ready to kill him - came to my house, took my stuff! .. "

    - And what it says Yesenin?

    - About the following:
    "Oh, this" owner "- Stirlitz! -" My house, my stuff! .. "- And the human soul does not care?" What is going through a person, who several years shared with him and the table and shelter, and always felt that it is not today - tomorrow kicked out? "And he, Stirlitz when - ever want to look into someone else's life, or he is interested in only their silver spoons to count to them he had not stolen? A hidden secrets of the man he loved it when - ever wonder ! He was not even time to listen to them! "He would not even know how close he was unhappy man as he was alone! (There may Yesenin bit of a tear in his voice.) And all because of him, Stirlitz most importantly it property! His home, his walls, his property, "Yes, hang it all this property! Whether business Yesenin: he can take off the shirt itself -" it for a good man no shame! "(That, at least about Yesenin himself says.) And these eternal recriminations of incompetence and ineptitude "You would think that Shtirlitsa boundless erudition! This ongoing training, this eternal work Shtirlitsa over itself, this is it on purpose, to spite the other, so does that seem even smarter and qualified! "Well, try, learn! Want to be smarter than everyone else?" It will not work - there's something - and someone more cunning than you! ".."

    The primary trick Esenina - the first way to "tame" Shtirlitsa - this requirement is an indulgence and concessions (the method used and Dostoevsky in the ITO dualization). Yesenin also interprets it differently: he takes on the role of a "spoiled child of the family," the general pet, which can not hurt. For the ethics of relations Zhukova it would be clear and simple. For Zhukova convenient form of ethical taboo - small and weak can not hurt, strong and healthy (and most importantly, unfriendly and dangerous) - can and should be! Do ethics relations Shtirlitsa designed for other commandments and the first of them: no one has the right to exploit their weaknesses and play on someone else's generosity. Privileged "favorites of" in the family (and team) should not be: each pays according to his deeds, not by its claims. But Yesenin (as authoritarian aristocrat), it does not agree.

    (Tamara 36 flight Shtirlic)

    "It so happened that spoiled our family had a husband. He himself - came from a poor family unprovided. And I thought that I could yes;; Tb him what he loses in his childhood. In his family he was accustomed to work. And at first he seemed very business-man. At least tried to show me those. But when we got married, I was terribly disappointed. It is simply unthinkable, the extent to which the man came to nothing are hands! Everything goes wrong, for that neither will be taken, all the breaks. At any work he did not stay ... We decided to start with a common cause, have become a business. And again, I was in shock - how he managed to confuse all! And then he was so afraid to take responsibility. One time I asked him to settle he himself created a misunderstanding with the contractors, but he was unable at this - I put forward, he hid behind my back and says: "Well, you sort it out here yet, but I'm going ..." On He could not be relied upon for anything! And so I nursed him, took care of both! .. And he was pleased to know that with him coddled. Sometimes he will approach me and ask: "Vovochka - pet?" And answers himself: "Pet!". Children, we did not start, he seemed afraid that a lot of love goes to the children ...

    Now I understand that itself has created this monster. After all, worth at least what - that go against his will, he immediately rolled up to the hysteria that lay on the floor and kicked. How he tormented me that! .. I can not forgive myself for what she has created for itself this problem! .. "

    Yesenin can "beat" Shtirlitsa Ethics of emotions - that he did not take away. And if he sees that what - that allows him to receive without fail "to hit the target, will use it repeatedly. Shtirlitsa this technique because amazing that Dostoevsky uses it very rarely - rarely go in for dramatics, but once He felt the pain point will be practicing this method to achieve its goals. (Painful methods used in the relations of duality and conflict in relationships).

    But the main weapon Esenina (and most importantly his "crime" in the eyes of Shtirlitsa) - is that it pulls in too much time. So, for example, that a million times, and asks asks, before that - to do something (or rather, to do) that Shtirlitsa worse: asking encouraging, while pulling on him didst trust, and he did not.

    However Stirlitz that does not know what Yesenin who asks a hundred times - it is an ideal Yesenin (in dual dyad it laid many times ask again - and Zhukov happy: A partner in the care and Yesenin calm: the responsibility is less). Worse, when not asking Yesenin doing that - then, and made then do not fix it. This also happens. And have to deal with all Stirlitz. (As Zhukov in dual ITO. But Zhukov at the same time he blames himself - only himself to blame: not explained! A Stirlitz blames Esenina: he dared not ask!) Yesenin blames Shtirlitsa: if you give instructions, have patience to explain everything.

    But patience for Esenina at Shtirlitsa lacking. And he blames this again Esenina - too long, messy and confusing, he comes to work before proceeding to her or get to the core business: poses the question "wrong" and not on the merits, the cause is taken at the wrong end . Stirlitz, respectively, also have to explain to him the task topsy - turvy - not from the end and not on the merits (as it usually happens at konflikterov). But then both and are reaping the results of their collaboration - both blamed each other and both suffer.

    Well, then, as usual, konflikter - logic imposes konflikteru - ethics guilt complex, presenting him a sort of "slob - a fool - a failure" (as we are well aware of the previous monologue). Konflikter - Ethics will not remain in debt and imposes a partner - the logic of guilt by presenting his hard-hearted tyrants and despots, which certainly will not be able to get on anybody who is not capable of love and because, of course, love is not worthy.

    Yesenin accuses Shtirlitsa that that is not enough time to understand it, to sympathize, to understand: "Here you are always so: one could not tell nakrichish, then she is going to be sorry!"

    A Stirlitz, tormented by his conscience, and listens to his suffering: - he knows very well for themselves this line: scream in a temper, and then worry that once made "that - something is wrong."

    But all these problems - trifle, compared with the process of coordinating efforts and goals of the dyad, and in relation to the conflict he is the most painful.

    We have already said that Yesenin not hesitate to use Shtirlitsa in their pragmatic purposes, especially if it is in his (Esenina) lifestyle, needs and way of being and ways of solving pressing problems. And there is nothing humiliating herself in this Yesenin not see. Much depends on personal opinion and attitude towards this issue. On the basis of all of the same beta - kvadrovogo complex "Six is better to subdue than submit to another. Yesenin offended (and rightly so!) If to tell him that he trades in his senses and his soul. That's not true!

    Soul Yesenin on trifles not be peddling and considers it the greatest credit to themselves and humanity, and "thirsty" and "suffering" resets only "tiny percentage" of the spiritual treasures that are consistently (and deservedly so) are the main subject of his pride (and high self-esteem). Yesenin loves and knows how to organize people to holiday (he himself is nice), carries an enormous and costly energy creative work, and quite naturally, wait for a response, deserved reward, which is not considered a sin, and to remind (if memory in humans is short).

    Pragmatically minded Yesenin be prudent and frank, and mercantile: maybe as a "beach" playboy "or" hotel gigolo. " Can woo a lonely, wealthy woman, relying on material compensation or how - any length of "protection."

    Perhaps this is a humiliating way, but not for Esenina. Soul and his thoughts higher than this, and "interest" from me to them "to order" mood, he may advantageously put into circulation. (In biology, this property is called "instinctive program reward pairings." It is inherent in the natural, instinctive basis of aspects of the business logic (the logic of action) and determines the motives of many deeds and actions that allow to survive and compete, battling for survival in difficult circumstances.

    Accordingly, both "inert pragmatist - and Yesenin, and Stirlitz (and both aspect of the business logic is in an inert block) attached great importance to this aspect of the habit and take appropriate or that their decisions, actions, and actions can not refuse. As a result, each of them had the impression that the partner is using it, and uses, profiting at his expense.

    Esenina for the most important thing - do not recognize myself a slave, then you will not, and those on whom the water carry. (Because he claims to be the pet in the family: Pet everyone loves him all forgive, do not require it, and do not ask - as a child - that he'll take "Because Yesenin and retains for itself the role of" Infanta "in the social hierarchy it is traditionally a convenient way for him to survive and fight for their existence - unless you can blame him for that?)

    Historically, evolutionary Yesenin can be master of his master. He is no worse than Maxim can tame the most stubborn and "go around" the most violent, acting (mostly) patiently, gently and peacefully, the method requests and exhortations. (And it's his tremendous achievement in the art of "management" Zhukov - as well as the art of "softening" the other "bishops" of the second fundamental - and that we all still need to learn from him!) This is the basis and mutually beneficial alliance with Zhukov (who splits, as soon as Zhukov stops properly evaluate services and Esenina will no longer see it an equal partner). For the same reason Yesenin trying to build and its relationship with Stirlitz. But Shtirlitsa hierarchy of values diametrically opposed to the hierarchy of values, Esenina, and this can no longer tolerate Yesenin.

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    fascinating. I had no idea there were descriptions of conflicting relations. Where did you find this? This is really long. wow...

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    This is really long. wow...

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    The most important question given Golden's background is how accurate it is compared to the situation she lived?
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individualís conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


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    its pathetic this forum doesnt have a russian speaker/translator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    its pathetic this forum doesnt have a russian speaker/translator.
    You'll need one of these:
    http://www.rosettastone.com/learn-russian

    annnnd one of these:

    http://www.amazon.com/Russian-Ushank.../dp/B00194CJ8M

    Make us proud out there kiddo!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    its pathetic this forum doesnt have a russian speaker/translator.
    I know some Russian, but the vocabulary in these descriptions often goes a little over my head, and it's really really REALLY hard for me to read Russian. I can do it really slowly but it makes my brain hurt and my eyes cross after a few sentences.

    It's true though, to get a decent idea of what's being said in these descriptions, i find i need to refer to the original russian text when something is not making sense. Even when a sentence does sort of make sense in English, it sometimes turns out that the meaning is actually backwards in the original, just because of subject vs object word placement, or a "not" being dropped in translation.

    It would be wonderful if a native Russian speaker could clean these up!!! Maybe Maritsa can actually make herself useful for once? I dont see her taking initiative in this for some reason, even though she constantly talks about how these descriptions are the most accurate.




    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    You'll need one of these:
    http://www.rosettastone.com/learn-russian

    annnnd one of these:

    http://www.amazon.com/Russian-Ushank.../dp/B00194CJ8M

    Make us proud out there kiddo!
    lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    The most important question given Golden's background is how accurate it is compared to the situation she lived?
    Hm. I'd say not all that accurate. The thing is, my ex is a pretty mild person, and I tried really hard to make the marriage work. Sometimes "soulless owner" did feel true, but not until we had a child, and that feeling came about because the two of us communicated so poorly and had such different goals that I was just sort of locked into what he wanted and couldn't easily get out because I was a mother.

    And up until the end, I didn't speak ill of him--that was more or less taboo to me. I might state a few concerns privately with a very close friend, and that only after years and years. When people came to me with complaints about the way he was doing something, I always found the most gracious way to make them feel better while still backing him up.

    That said, I do think I drained him and weakened him, just by being me.

    To date, I notice that between me and LSE, things can not turn into open conflict but have all the problems submerged; or it can just seem boring, no way to connect; or it can be a strong, overt clash quickly. I'm thinking Enneagram as a good way to describe those differences--if the other party is as reactive as I am, things come right to a head. But really, I think that could be LESS dangerous than the minefield version.

    What I still fail to understand is why in so many cases I'm willing to adopt a partner's Te as a substitute for Se; it seems like I do it, and it's freaking weird.

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    As for the Russian, I think it would be doable to get a decent semblance just with dictionaries and careful readings, since I work as an editor, but I don't have the time for such a massive text at the moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    its pathetic this forum doesnt have a russian speaker/translator.
    I think we have a few members that do, Ssmall does from what I know since he's translated some material in the past; but I wouldn't expect anyone to have to translate every Russian material posted here, especially ones as long as this, it's an incredibly tedious thing to do
    EII INFj
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    If all those socionics authors are speaking, more or less, about same things when they're describing a particular "type"/"relation", then our understanding of types would do nothing but flourish if we were to dedicate ourselves to studying their materials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    What I still fail to understand is why in so many cases I'm willing to adopt a partner's Te as a substitute for Se; it seems like I do it, and it's freaking weird.
    Maybe you're a gamma and you like both?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Maybe you're a gamma and you like both?
    A logical suggestion, but it seems highly unlikely. Few gamma friends, hellish relationship with an LIE boyfriend. Aaaand, I have a little Fe issue with this hypothesis.

    I think there's just something wrong with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post

    I think there's just something wrong with me.
    lol E-4.

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    *sniff* -- hey, stop laughin' at me!!!!!!

    But seriously, the IEI-LSE descriptions go on and on, far more than I posted here. And for the most part they make IEI out to be a useless, freeloading harpy bitch (or a drifting, dreamy playboy if a man); the emphasis seems to be on how fucked-up IEIs are.

    This is a conflict relationship here, meaning it's symmetrical. Therefore the two partners are both failing to be what the other needs and wants.

    It annoys me that after a marriage in which I blamed and blamed myself, I am s'posed to read 20 pages of Russian-language blame, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    *sniff* -- hey, stop laughin' at me!!!!!!

    But seriously, the IEI-LSE descriptions go on and on, far more than I posted here. And for the most part they make IEI out to be a useless, freeloading harpy bitch (or a drifting, dreamy playboy if a man); the emphasis seems to be on how fucked-up IEIs are.

    This is a conflict relationship here, meaning it's symmetrical. Therefore the two partners are both failing to be what the other needs and wants.

    It annoys me that after a marriage in which I blamed and blamed myself, I am s'posed to read 20 pages of Russian-language blame, lol.
    lol yeah I get you.

    (you mean we're not useless freeloading harpy bitches?? )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden
    But seriously, the IEI-LSE descriptions go on and on, far more than I posted here. And for the most part they make IEI out to be a useless, freeloading harpy bitch (or a drifting, dreamy playboy if a man); the emphasis seems to be on how fucked-up IEIs are.
    Well what they should all do is follow that writing career, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    *sniff* -- hey, stop laughin' at me!!!!!!

    But seriously, the IEI-LSE descriptions go on and on, far more than I posted here. And for the most part they make IEI out to be a useless, freeloading harpy bitch (or a drifting, dreamy playboy if a man); the emphasis seems to be on how fucked-up IEIs are.

    This is a conflict relationship here, meaning it's symmetrical. Therefore the two partners are both failing to be what the other needs and wants.

    It annoys me that after a marriage in which I blamed and blamed myself, I am s'posed to read 20 pages of Russian-language blame, lol.
    Everything I read seems to make IEIs out to be the butt monkeys of the Socion. "You're useless and impractical and lazy and if anyone gives you money you won't have a clue what to do with it but... You know, you're imaginative... That's, you know, really, uh.... Well find yourself a nice SLE and look extra helpless so she can do all the work for you."

    Yeesh.
    4w5 sp/sx

    Please, direct all questioning of my self-typing to this thread. Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    A logical suggestion, but it seems highly unlikely. Few gamma friends, hellish relationship with an LIE boyfriend. Aaaand, I have a little Fe issue with this hypothesis.

    I think there's just something wrong with me.
    can you explain the statement in bold more?
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    There's a decent IEI description that talks about some famous russian singer. I forget when it was found (not by me), but it's posted somewhere. It doesn't make IEIs out to be so bad. Lots of famous people are IEI.

    But yeah, this description does kind of shit on IEIs. We're artists! We create things! We bring beauty into the world, even if it's only the beauty of our own personalities. Oh well. At least SLEs appreciate not being bored.

    I'm kind of irritated by all the insinuations that IEIs are useless. I happen to be quite good at all the jobs I do. I am a bit lazy and unproductive though. I mean, when I do work, I work well and quickly and get the job done. But it's not like I'm as productive as I could be the whole day long.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Thank you Golden.

    Before you showed up, a few mistyped IEI gave the impression that IEI's valuing of Se made them rather rough, but I tried to explain that they are very delicate, just like the translation states, very fragile and actually very smart and kind. None of these qualities have anything to do with valuing Extraverted Senses, and living to experience the world through this perception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    There's a decent IEI description that talks about some famous russian singer. I forget when it was found (not by me), but it's posted somewhere. It doesn't make IEIs out to be so bad. Lots of famous people are IEI.

    But yeah, this description does kind of shit on IEIs. We're artists! We create things! We bring beauty into the world, even if it's only the beauty of our own personalities. Oh well. At least SLEs appreciate not being bored.

    I'm kind of irritated by all the insinuations that IEIs are useless. I happen to be quite good at all the jobs I do. I am a bit lazy and unproductive though. I mean, when I do work, I work well and quickly and get the job done. But it's not like I'm as productive as I could be the whole day long.
    It's almost like people forget that, for all our low energy, we are still Decisive types. Fragile and delicate, yes, but still entirely willing to forsake comfort for the ability to do something we believe in.
    4w5 sp/sx

    Please, direct all questioning of my self-typing to this thread. Thank you.

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    If that can help you see it under a more glorious light, here's a way to look at it (but I know many people will complain that I'm mixing MBTI nicknames, or argue around my selection, but you'll see it's only to make my point)

    All 4 NT club members are idealists, not meaning they are utopian, but rather that they all deal efficiently with abstract "Ideas" in their own way, and by extension, the mind, humanism and psychology in general.

    The two types, EII and IEE are very good observers and also very good empaths (strong Fi). From an information metabolism point of view, they can be seen as Knowledge sinks, gathering all kind of ideas, and eventually, sprouting new ones in the end (delta is compared to winter and death, but at the same time sow the seeds for the next season)

    This trend can be seen in the IEE nicknames: Champion, Psychologist, Reporter, Advocate, Inspirers, Visionary, Discoverer ... where you can see the data gathering, forwarding and reflecting process...and the far vision aspect too.

    Being the introverted counterpart, if IEE is called sometimes Social Philosopher, EII is called Idealistic Philosopher (note how the E type is at the front, and the I type is a step behind, as it's similar for instance to the Performer vs Composer types, SEE vs ESI)

    The two types are somewhat less empathetic but instead they have a silver tongue and a golden "plume" (I mean the feather used to write in the past), and while they are equally Knowledge seekers, they are not sinks but to the contrary they are Knowledge fountains. They forward and push information all around, and being beta, the summer and social quadra, they are the ones spreading ideas to the masses and make the best teachers and personal coaches.

    Again this trend can be seen in the EIE nicknames: Teacher, Mentor, Actor , Givers, Sage, Envisioner, Growth Teacher ... where the outwards going information transfer is quite apparent.

    Being the introverted counterpart, IEI is again one step behind in the shadows, but at the same time having a wider vision field and horizon. So if EIE is the Teacher having no problem with crowds, IEI would be the Counsellor preferring one-to-one or small group interaction, where they make pretty good personal mentors, consultants and advisors.

    Also if EIE forward information by explicit means in front of the audience (the Actor is like the Performer), behind the scenes IEI the Lyricist or Writer plays the same role as the Composer but producing books, articles and poems instead. And that's indeed an area where their creative can be used, and here even if I hate that, I'll go in Filatova's direction: used to "infect" other people emotionally and ethically/morally, planting subversive ideas into their mind, as we are truly the real inception masters!
    Last edited by KeroZen; 01-12-2011 at 07:12 AM. Reason: precision
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individualís conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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    By the way I'm thinking Jung was IEI and not ILI, so he's the real inception overlord, the one having created that horrible brain parasite which infected us all...

    Bow to the mighty IEI!
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individualís conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    By the way I'm thinking Jung was IEI and not ILI, so he's the real inception overlord, the one having created that horrible brain parasite which infected us all...

    Bow to the mighty IEI!
    OMG he typed himself as LII and he even stated why...why don't you read his work...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    *sniff* -- hey, stop laughin' at me!!!!!!

    But seriously, the IEI-LSE descriptions go on and on, far more than I posted here. And for the most part they make IEI out to be a useless, freeloading harpy bitch (or a drifting, dreamy playboy if a man); the emphasis seems to be on how fucked-up IEIs are.

    This is a conflict relationship here, meaning it's symmetrical. Therefore the two partners are both failing to be what the other needs and wants.

    It annoys me that after a marriage in which I blamed and blamed myself, I am s'posed to read 20 pages of Russian-language blame, lol.
    Which is why I don't raelly like how a lot of 'relationship profiles' are. There is an overemphasis on duality, and in situations like this, they can be very biased.

    I wouldn't personally relate it to your marriage or anything like that, though.

    I think Strati is a delta type? Or was that filatovat that was an EII. I don't remember; either way, the people who write stuff like this are often dripping with some sort of a bias.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    That's right. There's nothing important and valuable in socionics and especially, there's nothing in relationship dynamics, so Golden, listen to RYU, scrap the whole thing. You're here to party, forget about why you're really here, just put any three letters after your name and pick anyone you like to have fun with.... That's really how it works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    OMG he typed himself as LII and he even stated why...why don't you read his work...
    Yes for sure he self-types INT but he didn't go further than 8 types AFAIK, so as seen in this poll there are as many people saying he was ILI than there are saying he was LII.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=33857

    And that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to think what I want, leave me and my delusion alone will you!

    Btw Ashton voted IEI so I'm not technically alone anyways...
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individualís conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    listen to RYU
    I approve this message.

    I disapprove of Maritsa forming an alliance with other people who see duality as the only way, even if only because I fear that such gives weight to her own rationalization, a sort of cumulative reinforcement of delusion.

    you know I don't always like being a jerk
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    That's right. There's nothing important and valuable in socionics and especially, there's nothing in relationship dynamics, so Golden, listen to RYU, scrap the whole thing. You're here to party, forget about why you're really here, just put any three letters after your name and pick anyone you like to have fun with.... That's really how it works.
    Can I be ACE? I call ACE. ACE-type.

    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    ...
    ...so essentially I sneak into people's minds all Leo DeCaprio like and make them feel how I like with my artistry? This is quite a bit more heartening than the whole, "You and your ilk and worthless codgers" line.
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    Well, I don't know it this is a trend amongst IEI, but I tend to be quite modest and humble (some might even employ the "self-less" term sometimes) Like many IEI here (like my lovely bright-haired friend) I often apologize in advance and always say that what I say must be taken with some...grains of salt!

    But at the same time, I've been repeatedly told I'm a good "pedagogue", in the sense that, when I explain things to other people, it sounds quite clear and easy to follow (surely due to creative Fe, allowing me to create stylistic and dramatic effects to catch the audience attention and to sound not too booooring, modulating my tone and speech speed and adding atmosphere-building facial and spatial/volitional cues to the whole scene, to make it more realistic, and catch the pragmatists' attention in the process...)

    In a sense, IEI self-less diplomatic ability allows them to adapt their speech to any audience, and even to modulate their speech to accommodate a varied audience by alternating Fe, Se, and Ti imagery/cues to catch their attention.

    I know the "self-less" term can sound a bit harsh but I already read it in some stereotype description, and while for some people IEI might sound like selfish egotistic persons, inside most are clearly "outwards oriented". So much, that most IEI keep having perpetual doubts about themselves (we are complex individuals, even to ourselves)

    PS: LeoDC is sometimes typed as SLE, our dual but that's another subject...

    PPS: Yes, this should be remembered as the day where KeroZen completely started living his type (as I'm now 100% sure I'm IEI and anybody trying to tell me the contrary would be a fool)
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individualís conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
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  32. #32
    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    can you explain the statement in bold more?
    Sure, I just mean that anyone who knows me IRL, if they were aware of what Fe is, they would say I splash it all over the place. So ... whatever type I am, it's got a bunch of Fe in it.

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    Regarding the Ryu-Maritsa dust-up above ...

    I'm not inclined to favor theory over reality. The reason that I got interested in Socionics was that right away, I could begin measuring it against my experiences. I'm one of the older people on this forum, meaning that I have quite a bit of experience, and as my little story has made clear, it wasn't so great in the relationship zone.

    Some of these lengthy, specific intertype descriptions, first, that's true, they contain extreme bias. I read page after page of LSE-IEI description that painted IEIs as total wastrels and scoundrels taking advantage of and destroying LSEs!

    The thing is, the most important aspect of any relationship is the quality of the two people in it. Are they decent people? Are they respectful? Are they reasonably aware and kind? This is something I was trying to get at in another thread (with a different dust-up) when I said something about two well-intentioned people and it was taken amiss. What I meant--and mean--is that ime, and having seen lots of friends marry and divorce now, it's a little disheartening to realize that two people love each other and try to do their best for each other and the relationship, only to have some unnamed forces working against them constantly, making the relationship unworkable, making their efforts futile.

    Therefore, I do give quite a bit of credence to the idea of duality.

    I have been with a dual for the last several months off and on; and this is not a type (him as SLE) that Maritsa would agree with based on her way of typing, which is no great matter. (I did get help from Krig and Ashton, and also redbaron, with verifying his type, which is pretty clearly SLE to me anyway. Extravert, sensor, irrational as hell, territorial, protective, bold behavior, tender heart, etc., etc.)

    But does this mean that, hey, suddenly I have all the answers, because I found a dual? No. First, relationships are relationships, people are people, and nothing is perfect.

    Also, I have a long history of not being at ease with myself; in fact--Socionics anathema alert--I can see how easy it would be just to go out and be with another LSE, because that's what I'm used to now. Sometimes being with someone who actually needs me to be myself can feel like a huge challenge. Letting my own quote-unquote natural self unfold is sometimes frightening. I feel totally at home with him, but I also have to take stock and see that my own growth is my duty, and it's also my duty to help him grow. It's not a small and simple thing. Maybe all this has to do with what Aushra was getting at when she talked about how duality isn't so straightforward when you're not a kid anymore.

    Anyway ... "duality" is just a term for a certain kind of relationship that is NOT the only workable one. However, I think it's the kind I'd like to have, this weird combination of comfort and excitation, interpersonal ease and individual responsibility.

    /pondering

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Echoing ZeroKen, inception is another thing we IEIs are quite talented at. You don't know that we've convinced you of our way of thinking until it's too late, because we didn't *seem* like we were arguing.

    IEIs are also good spin doctors; we love to change the frame of the debate, so that even though we make effectively the same argument, by changing the frame of reference, we cast our claims in a better light and our opponent's in a poorer one.

    Also, while many IEIs (or at least myself) are reluctant to use our insight into people for evil (I personally think it would desert me, probably some internal psychological failsafe to keep me from being an asshole), IEIs can be nasty bastards when it comes to finding out exactly what will fuck someone up... and then doing exactly that.

    You think Iago only happens in the books, but there's many a bitter IEI ought there fucking with people's lives by preying on their weak points. IEIs are good with psychological pressure points. This tends to not work terribly well on LSEs, IME (they tend to have so little soul that it's hard to mess with). But most other types you can find out what they want most badly, what the issues with their self-image are, where their insecurities lie, how to break them, and then psychologically just destroy someone (ala Othello). I personally suspect Karl Rove is one.

    This can also be used more positively, for instance, by the director that knows what he needs to say to each actor to unlock their emotions, or the secondary school teacher who can size up a student in a minute and knows which ones to threaten and which ones to be gentle with and how to make tough guys who don't think they like *subject x* actually appreciate *subject x*.

    Also, contra Maritsa, lots of IEIs are rather aggressive. It's not a super natural state for us, but we're willing to be aggressive and like it, even though it's tiring. Especially male IEIs will pretend to be a lot more aggressive than we are, because we value the whole "tough-guy" thing (or a certain kind of toughness, a rather performative, don't-fuck-with-me-cause-I'm-a-badass toughness), we like the idea of being more than capable of taking down or controlling opponents (or at least I do), but we're naturally more suited for a sort of behind the scenes thing, and can do a nice-guy routine so well that it frequently becomes our dominant mode even when we don't feel very nice-guy. So, to guard against the nice-guy role, the lovable tagalong role, we can often go to the opposite extreme and act more aggressive than we actually are.

    Also, I wanna get in a fight, but I don't want to get my nose broken.

    It's almost like people forget that, for all our low energy, we are still Decisive types. Fragile and delicate, yes, but still entirely willing to forsake comfort for the ability to do something we believe in.
    Agreed. I know I use this quote/concept all the time, but IEIs are just filled with spiritual/volitional inertia. We need a push to get going, but once we get going, we don't let up: "I always go on until I am stopped and I never am stopped" (Shelley, as IEI as they come).
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Echoing ZeroKen, inception is another thing we IEIs are quite talented at. You don't know that we've convinced you of our way of thinking until it's too late, because we didn't *seem* like we were arguing.

    IEIs are also good spin doctors; we love to change the frame of the debate, so that even though we make effectively the same argument, by changing the frame of reference, we cast our claims in a better light and our opponent's in a poorer one.

    Also, while many IEIs (or at least myself) are reluctant to use our insight into people for evil (I personally think it would desert me, probably some internal psychological failsafe to keep me from being an asshole), IEIs can be nasty bastards when it comes to finding out exactly what will fuck someone up... and then doing exactly that.

    You think Iago only happens in the books, but there's many a bitter IEI ought there fucking with people's lives by preying on their weak points. IEIs are good with psychological pressure points. This tends to not work terribly well on LSEs, IME (they tend to have so little soul that it's hard to mess with). But most other types you can find out what they want most badly, what the issues with their self-image are, where their insecurities lie, how to break them, and then psychologically just destroy someone (ala Othello). I personally suspect Karl Rove is one.
    Sometimes IEI can "outfox" an LSE; that is, affect the people around them, which is even more annoying sometimes. If people are easily influenced by the various presentation altering mechanisms by the IEI, it gets to be a sense where the LSE can the become cast out, and then can lose a lot of social backing.

    Such is particularly where delta NFs come in, because they help the STs not get so irritated, and save face. It is very easy for delta STs to break relationships or, for some, to conform to or be limited by such shifts in arena - if they don't attack it or fight it they can feel controlled by it as something "they can't change" (NiFe stuff).


    In a life-ally sense, "good natured" beta NFs are huge assets to me because they can give me a lot of support in this regard. (I mean people who aren't so much like The Joker in Dark Knight/Batman, and willing to use their powers for good/development of others).
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    also

    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

  37. #37
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Sometimes IEI can "outfox" an LSE; that is, affect the people around them, which is even more annoying sometimes. If people are easily influenced by the various presentation altering mechanisms by the IEI, it gets to be a sense where the LSE can the become cast out, and then can lose a lot of social backing.
    Oh... clever. Good plan. Also, you're not soulless (so far as I can tell).

    Also, I think beta NFs are generally good allies socially: vaguely strategic mindset + skill with affect others' emotions.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  38. #38
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    Heh I wouldn't say it better than silverchris9, but sometimes I compare IEI to the past "Cardinals" (used in the catholic church sense) who were notorious for being very influent while remaining in the shadows. It's interesting as it's due to Se valuing (power/political/tension/forces-balance/equilibrium)

    I liked the bit were you say that there are some types which we can't directly "touch", as it's precisely in those scenarios that an angered IEI can wreck social havoc around his/her enemy...It's not something I'm proud of usually, rather something I don't readily overtly admit (we all tend to hide our secret weapons don't we?)

    If I have a grief against someone I can't convert to my side, I'll subvert patiently his/her surroundings to my cause, by one-to-one interaction, until they agree with me (shadow counselling), such that the next time I'll raise the argument in public against the original offender, he will discover (great dismay) he is now completely alone, without any support to hold his position (for this particular argument only, as I'm not completely breaking alliances in the process, that would be unfair, just bending opinions in my direction...)
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individualís conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Sometimes IEI can "outfox" an LSE; that is, affect the people around them, which is even more annoying sometimes. If people are easily influenced by the various presentation altering mechanisms by the IEI, it gets to be a sense where the LSE can the become cast out, and then can lose a lot of social backing.

    Such is particularly where delta NFs come in, because they help the STs not get so irritated, and save face. It is very easy for delta STs to break relationships or, for some, to conform to or be limited by such shifts in arena - if they don't attack it or fight it they can feel controlled by it as something "they can't change" (NiFe stuff).
    That makes sense, I'd imagine Te's have doubts regarding the Fe being produced. I've known an LSE from a while back and more currently an LIE who have both commented on their perceived lack of personality and believing themselves to be boring, which I guess could be paranoia over Role Fe.
    Let's just say watching a Te try to conform to Fe can be very very sad to watch *awkward* is probably a good way to describe it
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