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Thread: When typing, look at how people live their lives, not what they study in school

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    Default When typing, look at how people live their lives, not what they study in school

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    Last edited by Slacker; 11-02-2011 at 07:19 PM.

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    Yeah, that's a good point.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    So, my brother is an ESI, and studied economics, and is just about done with his MBA.
    That's settled then, must be a case of long-lost twins or something.

    I kind of agree with you in general, but I don't necessarily think this particular issue is just Te-related. Based on comparing Beta STs and Gamma NTs, the former still seem more practical skill oriented, living closer to your husband's way as you describe it, Ti or no Ti, evolving their career in a kind of one-thing-led-to-another way. While the latter's more abstract approach - regardless of somehow extreme stereotypes - is undeniable in comparison, with more focus on placing themselves in an advantageous position than on immediate skills which pay off today, even to the neglect of those ("it's going to be replaced in two or five or at most ten years; why should I learn this tech? better avoid being dependent on it, so when others are confronted with it's being outdated I'll be prepared"). I'd call it going after more "generic" skills, if it makes sense, though there are many pitfalls to this approach, some of them more obvious than others.

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    If people don't see economic abilities as a potential indicator of strong Te, that's another issue, though people strong in Ti are also strong in Te so Beta STs would also have strong Te. It's unvalued Te but they're still naturally strong at it.

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    A lot of beta ST's and gamma SF's make a lot of money and still go broke.

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    I think that strong and valued Se can sometimes lead to a desire to appear to be powerful to others, and if someone has that desire that person sometimes spends money unwisely to keep up that appearance, which can cause financial trouble.

    And actually that is part of my brother's problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    I think that strong and valued Se can sometimes lead to a desire to appear to be powerful to others, and if someone has that desire that person sometimes spends money unwisely to keep up that appearance, which can cause financial trouble.

    And actually that is part of my brother's problem.
    Lol yeah, that's terrible. I have an ESI male friend that works a lot and throws away money to buy himself a new "better looking" racing bike or a new "better looking and cooler" set of racing shoes every 6 months. Everytime he does that I spend a good 15 minutes scolding him trying to show him how he would be able to work a lot less if he didn't throw away so much money, but hey...

    with females though this kind of thing seems to be much less pronunciated. Most ESI girls/women I know are pretty good with money (on the border between "good" and "stingy").
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Might just be a part of living in a patriarchal culture - women don't need to appear as powerful in our world in the same way men do, so their Se doesn't show up in the same way. Although I've known some SEE woman who HAD to live in the right neighborhood and wouldn't be caught dead driving some kinds of cars. Whose kids HAVE to go to the right schools, etc. Maybe single women find financial solvency to be a kind of powerful thing when attracting men? That's the thing about IEs. They're so much more complicated than "People with strong, valued Se spend money on things they don't need to because they want to keep up with the Joneses." Maybe sometimes, but there are too many complicating factors to rely on stereotypes like that. And I guess that's why typing can be tricky!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    So, my brother is an ESI, and studied economics, and is just about done with his MBA. I don't care that he studied econ in school when I type him. He did really well in school, but I don't care about that either. When I look at his life, it's apparent he has no ability with finances regardless of what he's studied. He is always in debt, and stupid debt that even I could forsee was a bad idea, and he never has two dimes to rub together. In fact, even getting his MBA is an example. There aren't new jobs being created in Michigan that require MBAs, or any new jobs for that matter, and he just sunk a boatload of money into getting an MBA that will not get him a higher salary. Compare this to my husband, who dropped out of college and now makes a healthy salary and we have no debt and are financially comfortable. Or a much bigger example is Bill Gates who dropped out of college and is obscenely rich. If you're going to use economics as a barometer for strength in Te, that is what to look for: how do you actually work with economics in your life, not what are you studying, even if you're doing well in your studies. Not to say people strong in Te will always drop out of college, just that college is not the place to look. The same is true for any particular IE.
    Ha

    I know an LIE who SUCKS at money because they are always trying to evade the details of having to pay certain things.


    It's not about , folks.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Te will show up differently in different people, but I disagree that money is never about Te. I would also disagree that all people strong in Te are good with money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    Te will show up differently in different people, but I disagree that money is never about Te. I would also disagree that all people strong in Te are good with money.
    You disagree with a lot of things
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    You disagree with a lot of things
    LOL yeah I was thinking about that other thread on disagreement as I pushed the "submit reply" button.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    So, my brother is an ESI, and studied economics, and is just about done with his MBA. I don't care that he studied econ in school when I type him. He did really well in school, but I don't care about that either. When I look at his life, it's apparent he has no ability with finances regardless of what he's studied. He is always in debt, and stupid debt that even I could forsee was a bad idea, and he never has two dimes to rub together.
    Most non-alpha NTs are always struggling with debt.

    In fact, even getting his MBA is an example. There aren't new jobs being created in Michigan that require MBAs, or any new jobs for that matter, and he just sunk a boatload of money into getting an MBA that will not get him a higher salary. Compare this to my husband, who dropped out of college and now makes a healthy salary and we have no debt and are financially comfortable. Or a much bigger example is Bill Gates who dropped out of college and is obscenely rich. If you're going to use economics as a barometer for strength in Te, that is what to look for: how do you actually work with economics in your life, not what are you studying, even if you're doing well in your studies. Not to say people strong in Te will always drop out of college, just that college is not the place to look. The same is true for any particular IE.
    Money is not everything. Your brother probably feels happy to have achieved such an important academic level: a prostitute can earn lot of money by doing an humiliating job, for instance.

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    I know I shouldn't be laughing. But god.

    Oh dear.

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    I have never had an interested in business or in studying economics, but I am fairly decent at managing finances. My biggest problem is time-management. And relationships.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    So, my brother is an ESI, and studied economics, and is just about done with his MBA. I don't care that he studied econ in school when I type him. He did really well in school, but I don't care about that either. When I look at his life, it's apparent he has no ability with finances regardless of what he's studied. He is always in debt, and stupid debt that even I could forsee was a bad idea, and he never has two dimes to rub together. In fact, even getting his MBA is an example. There aren't new jobs being created in Michigan that require MBAs, or any new jobs for that matter, and he just sunk a boatload of money into getting an MBA that will not get him a higher salary. Compare this to my husband, who dropped out of college and now makes a healthy salary and we have no debt and are financially comfortable. Or a much bigger example is Bill Gates who dropped out of college and is obscenely rich. If you're going to use economics as a barometer for strength in Te, that is what to look for: how do you actually work with economics in your life, not what are you studying, even if you're doing well in your studies. Not to say people strong in Te will always drop out of college, just that college is not the place to look. The same is true for any particular IE.
    Good post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    The alternative would be working with each other towards a productive end. Hanging out would be more like interaction for interaction's sake.

    It's not so much that Gammas don't like to "hang out" per se, but it just feels like Ne/Si and Se/Ni intermixing in a "hanging out" sort of environment can feel a little stilted. It could also just be an instinct stacking thing, or maybe a combination of the two.
    I think "working towards a productive end" is a rather misleading way to put it. Like, you can meet with people to play a game, or do something else, or get to know better, really talk and not just chit-chat, maybe catch up with someone - those all count. By socialization for socialization's sake (or interaction, whatever) I mean when there's no meaningful interaction, just not-being-alone-at-the-moment, which for me translates to lonely-in-the-crowd-feeling, lack of personal connection. Also if there's nothing going on that holds my attention, including interesting conversation, it becomes an effort to stay in here-and-now, I space out and totally withdraw, ending up in uncomfortable situations and putting off some people because they say I'm ignoring them or whatever. In a larger group than a few close friends, I'll support or suggest ideas of actually doing something (again not work, where do you people get these ideas from?) because otherwise I drift away from it, don't have the energy to keep up, kind of default to being an outsider... and I'll rather go away than stay if it continues. I don't have the patience for suffering through it when I'd rather be somewhere else.

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    ^I think that's an introvert thing, moreso than a Gamma thing.

    I can try and politely tolerate situations where I'm alone in the crowd, but that's about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    ^I think that's an introvert thing, moreso than a Gamma thing.

    I can try and politely tolerate situations where I'm alone in the crowd, but that's about it.
    Yeah, well, I didn't mean all such feeling - which seems a human thing and in 3... 2... 1... there are going to be extraverts protesting they also experience this - as much as that I always get it if there isn't something else to keep me there, or in other words, that I don't get how can one be connected with the group, sort of "in tune" with it or its atmosphere or whatever, without enormous effort which doesn't pay off - things which I've seen described as related to Fe since day one, so maybe it's become part of my personal bias, and which have originally affected my self-typing.

    To return to the topic of patience and hanging out, it's something which I find both frustrating and don't have the patience for, not that I generally have any patience to speak of, being rather a "get to the point already" sort of person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Lol yeah, that's terrible. I have an ESI male friend that works a lot and throws away money to buy himself a new "better looking" racing bike or a new "better looking and cooler" set of racing shoes every 6 months. Everytime he does that I spend a good 15 minutes scolding him trying to show him how he would be able to work a lot less if he didn't throw away so much money, but hey...
    Heh, sounds like a lot of fun in my future.

    Then it is settled. Americans are . (or maybe just a stereotype)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Ha

    I know an LIE who SUCKS at money because they are always trying to evade the details of having to pay certain things.


    It's not about , folks.
    Yeah that's true since LIEs (and not ILIs or LSEs) can very likely overlook details. I think my dad may be LSE, and we're both very conservative about money. Only difference is he is a hard worker and would rather do things himself, where as I'm just resourceful and don't get into much financial trouble. I actually feel depressed if I make a bad investment, so I try to really look things over and not rush in to buying things I want. As it says in the ILI description (Filatova) we often are bad at making detailed decisions, because we get so caught up in the negative possibilities: so putting off spending is a good solution.

    I'm one to rain on people's parade by not showing any interest in their new fancy things, and thinking to myself if that person is really financially secure, or why they needed to buy that certain thing. Heh, it's weird, I just don't have any real firm detailed calculation ability that S types have. I can't really enjoy a lot of material goods and pleasures, except for maybe food and limited things I've gained a personal trust in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    I'm one to rain on people's parade by not showing any interest in their new fancy things, and thinking to myself if that person is really financially secure, or why they needed to buy that certain thing. Heh, it's weird, I just don't have any real firm detailed calculation ability that S types have. I can't really enjoy a lot of material goods and pleasures, except for maybe food and limited things I've gained a personal trust in.
    Yeah, same. When I do throw away some money, it's for travelling.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Two ways to type people:
    1) VI
    2) their arguments

    Nothing else is reliable. Even arguments must be scrutinized closely.

    If a person can't manage their money, that's a sign of weak Te EM. Managing money can be difficult because of inattention to the range of potential outcomes of one's own situation. If you don't spend a lot of time trying to understand outcomes in depth, you're going to be caught off guard. I get caught off guard more often than not, and have usually had to beg for money off my folks for a few months or so, until I was able to get more cash. Like recently my financial aid was held up for months because of an error by uni. I had not accounted for this possibility and so was caught off guard, unable to pay rent. I probably could have stayed up in Ohio and drained dad by like, $400 a month... but I really didn't feel good about that nor that it was a very smart strategy overall. So I moved back in with him and will be staying here for probably another year or so. We save thousands of dollars a year in rent and I don't have to take out as many loans to get along on, so yeah this move will probably end up saving about $12k.

    Money issues can of course be credit-related: people not paying attention to Te and so getting caught up in credit card debts, not paying attention to interest accumulation... etc. I'd call that a weak Ni IM/weak Te EM combination effect: not everyone with weak Ni IM gets in over their head in debt, but people with strong Te EM tend to be decent managers of their check books, what with all their attention to number and transactions, their willingness to study them in depth, and their curiosity with regard to numeric outcomes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Two ways to type people:
    1) VI
    2) their arguments

    Nothing else is reliable. Even arguments must be scrutinized closely.

    If a person can't manage their money, that's a sign of weak Te EM. Managing money can be difficult because of inattention to the range of potential outcomes of one's own situation. If you don't spend a lot of time trying to understand outcomes in depth, you're going to be caught off guard. I get caught off guard more often than not, and have usually had to beg for money off my folks for a few months or so, until I was able to get more cash. Like recently my financial aid was held up for months because of an error by uni. I had not accounted for this possibility and so was caught off guard, unable to pay rent. I probably could have stayed up in Ohio and drained dad by like, $400 a month... but I really didn't feel good about that nor that it was a very smart strategy overall. So I moved back in with him and will be staying here for probably another year or so. We save thousands of dollars a year in rent and I don't have to take out as many loans to get along on, so yeah this move will probably end up saving about $12k.

    Money issues can of course be credit-related: people not paying attention to Te and so getting caught up in credit card debts, not paying attention to interest accumulation... etc. I'd call that a weak Ni IM/weak Te EM combination effect: not everyone with weak Ni IM gets in over their head in debt, but people with strong Te EM tend to be decent managers of their check books, what with all their attention to number and transactions, their willingness to study them in depth, and their curiosity with regard to numeric outcomes.
    could you give me an example of how to type someone based on an argument?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemon View Post
    could you give me an example of how to type someone based on an argument?
    I'd also like to know more about this.

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    It's more a matter of personal priorities and defending their choices, philosophies of living... like SLI says you can't stick to principles to the point of causing harm (that's a blow to beta NF right there). LSE says you should suck it up for the team. ESI believes in a higher standard of justice than does LII. Yeah the super ego's conflict with the ego is pretty stark, and a reliable indicator of type.

    We need a table of all those.

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