Table Etiquette

[lemon]

I think it is the most stupid thing to ever have been invented by human kind. Is this type related or is it just a difference between generations and traditions? I know of a few people of my generation who value this sort of crap and they all seem to me to be ignorant snobs. I have heard people try to relate Etiquette to Fi, but I don't exactly understand how not dipping bread in your soup or keeping your elbows off the table is going to help maintain or improve personal relationships, so I don't know if I buy that. And if you don't believe it is type related, could you perhaps explain to me why it even exists?

[munenori2]

I agree. It's one of those dumb traditions seemingly designed to divvy people up into the 'cultured' and people they can feel superior to or something.

[Marie84]

idk, I think it's just a factor of social environment. Like, my mom (ILE) is very particular about table manners, but she was raised in a wealthy family that lived that high class lifestyle. My dad (LSI) on the other hand was raised during post war Germany and lived on a farm, and he has rather course table manners.

I imagine that pretty much applies to all people more or less, it's just part of nature-nurture. I mean, if nobody taught us anything about things like manners either way we'd probably all be very primitive when it came to these sorts of things

[golden]

Frankly, I think minimal table manners are very, VERY important. I don't want to be talked to through a mouthful of food, have arms reaching around me or across me at the table, etc. Just being casual, like putting an elbow on the table, is no big deal. But some things can make me too disgusted to even eat my own meal. Manners don't have to be elaborate, but I like to eat with the humans. And it's good to teach reasonably complete etiquette to kids so that they will know what to do if when they're older they're among company or in a fine restaurant where etiquette is called for and they're not lost and acting caveman-like.

I wouldn't shame anyone, not even a child, though, for not knowing table etiquette. It's just an area of knowledge to be mastered.

[Suz]

idk, I think it's just a factor of social environment. Like, my mom (ILE) is very particular about table manners, but she was raised in a wealthy family that lived that high class lifestyle. My dad (LSI) on the other hand was raised during post war Germany and lived on a farm, and he has rather course table manners.

you mean "coarse."

[Sir Knight]

Things most people feel intuitively grossed out by when they're trying to eat, or at least I do.

This sums up my thoughts on it. If a certain action won't cause the cheeks of one or more members of the table to turn a shade greener, then why bother inventing rules around it?

[Galen]

Things most people feel intuitively grossed out by when they're trying to eat, or at least I do.

BUT WHAT IF YOU'RE INTUITIVELY OFFENDED IF THE BLADE SIDE OF THE KNIFE POINTS AWAY FROM THE PLATE?

also not type related

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

People who are too focused on manners and being polite kinda remind me of the Mayor on Buffy. Remember him? Very evil even though he's very neat and clean.

I get that they're important to an extent but they're also an illusion. Am I really gonna not like somebody cause they feel natural enough with me to burp or fart around me and not be so aware of themselves? If anything, that's a good sign- that they can relax around me. It means that we're not subconsciously scrutinizing each other so much.

I wish my family would talk about shit more like black ppl and threw stuff at each other more instead of letting things fester like we do. I don't want to be TOO black, ewww but my family could use more color. They could use more sassy black woman-ness telling them how shit really goes down. especially my mom. Ugh. SO fake and SO white sometimes. Even she knows when she's doing it too. Slap that enneagram 3 right off their faces I say. =D

[FDG]

I agree it's NTR.

I've never been particular about it and hardly anyone else I know is either. But there do seem to be certain um, ground rules so to speak. Like not chewing with your mouth open. Or not thieving stuff off other people's plates. Or not casually burping/farting/whatever. Things most people feel intuitively grossed out by when they're trying to eat, or at least I do.

Yeah same. I don't think any other "upper level" table manners are considered standard anymore.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

People who are too influenced by 'good manners' seem really gullible to me, like they would buy anything from somebody just because they're being nice. Of course business operates on the principalness of niceness, they're trying to encourage you to buy it. I'm a little backwards. I'm only motivated to buy a product if they can get under my skin and know how to be as shockingly cruel to me as possible. So I'm kinda only influenced by Hollywood, daaaahling. (hehehehe)

Okay I have a really good idea for a comic. I'll make it now...

[Creepy-male]

Ahh Table Etiquette probably didn't originate as a scheme to divide the cultured from the un-cultured, it probably started as something practical and eventually became common practice or tradition. Sort of like how its proper to shake with your right hand.

Generally people who care about these things focus on maintaining social conventions, which are largely arbitrary. There are many reasons for this....

1) Having a convention in place makes things work easier than having to establish one impromptu (this applies to traffic laws and right of ways, but not so much to table manners)

2) Strong feelings are associated to customs and traditions of your society (usually this applies to customs and traditions which have their utility in bringing people together, i.e. shaking hands, greetings, holidays, religion, offensive gestures, etc) -- This is likely Fi related

3) Think up another reason.... I'm bored

-- Usually compulsive personalities are more focused on these things, so typically rational personalities are drawn to convention... probably Ti for the first reason and Fi for the second reason

People who obsess over table manners may be attempting to display class pride, or it could be something like they have a more anal retentive personality.... personally the thought of someone burping and farting like a country bumpkin and shouting like a drunken sailor is a huge repulsion, not because of class issues, but because they are filling the place up with their nastiness without permission. Farting and Burping expels gas in their body into the community air that people breath, shouting sends ripples of waves into the air that can't be avoided.... generally people don't like that. If you live on a farm, typically though you come back sweaty from work and the first thing on your mind is replenishment and it doesn't matter how proper you eat, its a matter of survival and work. Each set of manners fits a practical situation... its not some conspiracy really.... however there are always those annoying people on both sides.... the obsessively cultured highbrow condescending jackass and the smelly uncultured slob. I think in general its a dangerous game to try to represent yourself different so you'll fit into a class better, you should really just do what works.... if your a soldier at war, chow down an MRE like a mut..... if your at a nice function, you don't have to be stiff, but try to respect other peoples wishes and don't ejaculate your semen all over the place and flake off dandruff everywhere and eat the cake with your bare hands and grab that hot girls ass like your a caveman. Not so that your compatriots will accept you, because it makes sense in those situations.

[The Ineffable]

Ahh Table Etiquette probably didn't originate as a scheme to divide the cultured from the un-cultured, it probably started as something practical and eventually became common practice or tradition. Sort of like how its proper to shake with your right hand.

... and like anything, Beta j's codify it and turn it into a uber-mega serious ritual .

My ESE mother tried to teach us some but I find it hilarious. My brother - SLI - usually respects these things because he cares that people don't look down at him, but otherwise he doesn't care too much.

I wondered why people who do such laughable things are often taken more seriously than the others, and IMO could partially be about reliability. It's like they can do typical things out of principle, so you know what to expect from them. They can follow rules and stuff.

[Creepy-male]

I wondered why people who do such laughable things are often taken more seriously than the others, and IMO could partially be about reliability. It's like they can do typical things out of principle, so you know what to expect from them. They can follow rules and stuff.

Well purple used to be the color of royalty and people in roman times used to take purple patches and sew them onto their clothing to look royal and important. People today do similarly stupid things to show off their status.

I think people who over obsess about table manners may be running in fear of some aspect of themselves, like they apraise themselves as unworthy compared to higher class individuals and then desire to kind of sneak themselves into a class higher if they imitate the behaviors of that class. It never works though because the higher class people that are the most judgmental and exclusive will see this insecurity and neediness and play to it, exploit it for their own purposes. If there were a "good" higher class person they wouldn't care about such ostentiacious rituals and therefore it would worthless to win their approval through imitation.

Anyways some people are just more anal and over-obsess about proper presentation, other people fit the above category being phonies, but its a fine line where one stops and the other begins.

[The Ineffable]

Man, you're totally Se-PoLR .

Well purple used to be the color of royalty and people in roman times used to take purple patches and sew them onto their clothing to look royal and important. People today do similarly stupid things to show off their status.

You know, I think that for some it's just some sort of signalling to like-minded people - at least for intelligent persons who realize that not anyone swallow the pill. My boss, SLE, is that kind of big exclusivist business-man, in a way, though he never tries to impress me or some similar people with bullshit like that. These people need to find value in something, otherwise, what are they struggling for, or something? They simply like to do that, they feel priviledged and accomplished when for example get invited into a select network, just like scientists when they find some stuff about stars, atoms, things, whitout which they feel empty and meaningless. And just like scientists, who you certainly understand much better, they feel the need to share the feeling.

[Creepy-male]

Yea but that exclusivity can either be a complete sham you make up to feel good that in the back of your mind you know is phony... or it can really mean something.

I personally don't care what philosophy you choose, but I'd rather have my accomplishments mean something, like a skill. An olympic athlete who can run a mile in a record time is REALLY exclusive because its a skill they have that not everyone can do.... theres a difference between that and simply going out and buying a trophy from goodwill and placing it in your room to feel special. In fact I see that kind of behavior as a bit pathetic as well as most people that I know.

As for social circles and exclusivity, usually this is formed via like minded people who just click and harmonize well. The positive feelings come from knowing that people in your circle are on the same wavelength as you, they get you and you get them, and you share things. This is how nature works, wolves form packs together, members take on roles, food is shared. People are really not that different, just more sophisticated and complex, but its incredibly easy to infiltrate outside social networks once you understand the mentality of the people, of course thats not the point the point is, why go around being a phony... why not just merge with those that get you and have a use for your skills, otherwise why sell out to the crowd?

If you do you could risk just paying into a pyramid scheme of social respect and the guy at the top isn't really higher based on skills but higher based on leeching off the others peoples desire to be at the top, all it take is one devoted flunky to begin forming the pyramid =p.

The same applies for science, there are tons of phonies in academia.

[lemon]

Okay. So, table ettiquette itself is probably not type related. Looking at this sentence, I don't even know how it makes sense.

Could how people deal with ettiquette be type related? Some examples:

-woman tells her kids not to talk with their mouth open because that's what a "good mom" does

-man doesn't fart at a table because it makes him queezy when other people do and he wants to be considerate.

-man farts at a table and woman laughs at him and says "eww, gross!" in a way that clarifies disgustion while still remaining jolly and does not discomfort the man

-woman farts at a table and the rest of the table exchanges small coughs and snorts that signify disgust in a silently snobby manner that makes the woman guilty so that she does not fart again

-man vomits in his mouth and tells everyone about it. Everyone makes him leave and erases him from their phone books.

So how about that? Is that culture too?

[Exodus]

Okay. So, table ettiquette itself is probably not type related. Looking at this sentence, I don't even know how it makes sense.

Could how people deal with ettiquette be type related?

Yes! My interpretation:

: You should do this because it's what you're expected to do / the right thing to do.
: You should do this because to do otherwise is "rude".
: You should do this because it's a sort of "common language" and culture.
: You should do this because people will think poorly of you otherwise.
: You shouldn't do this because it's gross/unrefined.

[The Ineffable]

: You should do this because it's a sort of "common language" and culture.

That's more like and , IMO. is something like "because it's good", "because it makes people (feel) good", imperatives never depend on the whole, the alternatives, eg: "if this feels good and everyone is happy with it, than it's proper".

Only Serious and Decisive put all the possibilities on a scale to tell what's common and respectively, best.

[Exodus]

That's more like and , IMO. is something like "because it's good", "because it makes people (feel) good", imperatives never depend on the whole, the alternatives, eg: "if this feels good and everyone is happy with it, than it's proper".

Only Serious and Decisive put all the possibilities on a scale to tell what's common and respectively, best.

I don't really understand what you're saying or how that's related to the information elements.

[Beautiful sky]

That's more like and , IMO. is something like "because it's good", "because it makes people (feel) good", imperatives never depend on the whole, the alternatives, eg: "if this feels good and everyone is happy with it, than it's proper".

Only Serious and Decisive put all the possibilities on a scale to tell what's common and respectively, best.

I agree with this, but I think that Hotel's post was out of context. Hotel, that post about Fe is more about what they have in their mind that they have a difficult time letting go even when they want to do something that makes them and others feel good. Anotherwords, being extraverts, it's hard for Fe not to break away from their ideals of their societal expectations even when they (FeSi here) want to be totally hedonistic .

[The Ineffable]

Anotherwords, being extraverts, it's hard for Fe not to break away from their ideals of their societal expectations even when they (FeSi here) want to be totally hedonistic .

You're right, Maritsa, but it's not because it's Extrovert, but Merry. Te is Extroverted, too.

Nevertheless, Fe is indeed "hedonistic", but only through the perspective of Te/Fi; when you look at it from its own perspective - and through Ti's, Merry, too - it just is. Fe is spontaneity at all levels and its moral value can be also depicted by concepts like of ichi-go ichi-e - live your life, live the moment, even "don't worry - be happy", which is very valued by many people. This is one good example where we people, have to pick one of two incompatible/conflicting sides, using either Fe/Ti or Te/Fi to judge the matter.

In our case, being called "hedonism" can be considered centrism on Te/Fi - so half-truth. Not because of some sort of negative connotation, but because exclusively through Fe, other motivation than human passion doesn't even exist.

[Krig the Viking]

Table manners and other forms of formal politeness have always struck me as being a Ti-Leading type's way of dealing with Role Fi. "Here is the specific rule for handling this situation so that you don't cause Fi offence."

Personally, I'm all for it. If everyone was following the same explicit rules, I might actually have a chance at successfully navigating social situations.

[munenori2]

You're right, Maritsa, but it's not because it's Extrovert, but Merry. Te is Extroverted, too.

Nevertheless, Fe is indeed "hedonistic", but only through the perspective of Te/Fi; when you look at it from its own perspective - and through Ti's, Merry, too - it just is. Fe is spontaneity at all levels and its moral value can be also depicted by concepts like of ichi-go ichi-e - live your life, live the moment, even "don't worry - be happy", which is very valued by many people. This is one good example where we people, have to pick one of two incompatible/conflicting sides, using either Fe/Ti or Te/Fi to judge the matter.

In our case, being called "hedonism" can be considered centrism on Te/Fi - so half-truth. Not because of some sort of negative connotation, but because exclusively through Fe, other motivation than human passion doesn't even exist.

It's 2:40am CDT or CST on December 29th, 2010 and I'm agreeing with both Maritsa and Bolt, simultaneously, and I'm pretty sure I'm of sound body and mind.

[April]

So we should worry for your soul then?

[munenori2]

I can no longer be saved.

[Creepy-Snaps]

A broken clock is still right twice a day.

... But the chances of two broken clocks, along with a fair, good-condition running clock, all being in sync, however, is improbable to say the best... 2:40am CST on 12/29/2010 is marked.

ANYWAY. Table manners = not type related, agreed. More cultural, society-dependent.

Table manners viewed as a set principle to respect other people... different societies have different ways of respecting each other. Of course how each person views those different ways may be type related, but table manners, in and of themselves, are not. Table manners are simply a pawn in the game of psychologically deciding what's the appropriate behavior to adopt. Every chess player views/uses pawns differently, but the pawns in and of themselves are the same for each game.

[mu4]

Alpha- common decency, respect status of relationships. Don't be too close if u aren't. Charm more then ritual.
Beta- show respect with / based on manners. Respect social status. Punishment if lines are crossed. Think gordon ramsay. Informal in close relations amongst equals.
Gamma - Business like. Cold and mechanical. Focus on politeness and service. Can be warm in private.
Delta - a matter of ritual define within the group depending on the group. Means of showing acceptance and closeness. Does not typically differ in private. May not fit norms but often can.

Just some observations.

[helvetica]

I like when reading the original post and form an opinion on it, only to read further and see that people think the same thing. Anyway.

There are too many other factors to judge someone's type based on actions in formal politeness. You can't know if psychology is what's causing that.

For example, I've been told that I eat like a savage. I've also been told while out to eat that it was really obvious that I was trying to have table manners and didn't. Basically I want to be respectful and polite, but I grew up eating by myself. I didn't develop any habits of table manners and sometimes I'm not really even sure what all they are. It can be a difficult habit to break, as much as I may want to in certain social settings.