Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 54

Thread: Is duality is not a perfect criterion for marriage?

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Is duality is not a perfect criterion for marriage?

    From what I understand about duality, it is beneficial in that duals help each other see the big picture from either partner's PoV. Dual partners correct each others' false assumptions about the situation at hand. (in contrast to conflictors, who only end up reinforcing each others' fallacies). They also help their partners transform the situation into something more favorable to them by pointing out opportunities their partners may have overlooked.

    But, what about when what you really desperately need, due to environmental conditions beyond your control, is the touch of a type other than your dual?

  2. #2
    Grand Inquisitor Bardia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    ESI
    Posts
    1,258
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This is always a difficult issue to look at because what you need may be best for you in marriage, but compared to days past marriage is now about what you want. What you want and need can be very different things.
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Bardia0
    http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0

  3. #3
    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Holy Temple of St. Augusta
    Posts
    3,693
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    It's funny that you bring this up. I was pondering a scenario in which a dual couple have a conflictor/supervisee child. Even with duality there would be no balance for the child itself.

    I settled on Super Ego being the perfect relationship for having children.

  4. #4
    not gonna be around as much anymore
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    TIM
    C-IEE
    Posts
    1,258
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    It's funny that you bring this up. I was pondering a scenario in which a dual couple have a conflictor/supervisee child. Even with duality there would be no balance for the child itself.

    I settled on Super Ego being the perfect relationship for having children.
    Interesting you should say that...My parents are probably super-egos, and they have done a wonderful job raising me and my siblings.
    My life's work (haha):
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/blog.php?b=709
    Input, PLEASEAnd thank you

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    EyeSeeCold that's an astute observation.

  6. #6
    not gonna be around as much anymore
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    TIM
    C-IEE
    Posts
    1,258
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    EyeSeeCold that's an astute observation.
    It is. And it rather makes sense, too. Because there is no way to predict beforehand what type one's children will be, and if the child's parents are from opposing quadras, that means that the child will always have at least one parent in either his same quadra or a neighboring quadra.

    The only issue, then, is for the parents themselves to make the marriage work. Mine have managed to do it, for 26 years...I suppose it helps to have a lot of non-socionics things in common, like religion, life goals, interests, etc.
    My life's work (haha):
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/blog.php?b=709
    Input, PLEASEAnd thank you

  7. #7
    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    everywhere at once
    Posts
    8,450
    Mentioned
    204 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Duality is by no means the only thing that's necessary to having a good relationship with someone. I think that a lot of descriptions of duality out there state that there has to be some sort of common ground outside of socionics for a relationship to survive or even get off the ground: culture, religion, hobbies, tastes, values etc are probably more important in how a relationship works out. I've known a couple of ISTps that I've had 0 interest in romantically or even as friends due to the above personal factors.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I guess the real question is whether people should use a formula to figure out who they should marry.

    Values, hobbies, and even basic attractiveness are already covered in the supersocion system. Culture and religion are self-evident.

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    What I'd like know -- what everyone would like to know -- is this: with tens of millions of singles in the Western world, how do two people decide to stick with each other over all the other choices? Beyond that, how SHOULD they decide on who to stick with? What kind of choice improves both their own lives, and the lives of the people around them?

  10. #10
    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Several stories high
    TIM
    EIE prob 6
    Posts
    2,969
    Mentioned
    106 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Gah. Having actually done the marriage/divorce thing now, I'd say just go find a decent freaking dual. Although it's true that I'm Beta, my ex is Delta, and my son is Alpha, meaning that the child has parents in his adjacent quadras, I cannot possibly imagine how that benefits him more than having parents who really understood each other, could allow each other to grow, and could have stayed together would have.

    If I ever marry again, it may not be to a dual, but it will not--no offense intended--be to a Delta. And even though duality is no magic formula, just finding someone you're deeply comfortable with is pretty important, no matter what you call it. Duality doesn't prevent divorce, it doesn't do anything but, imo, offer a better chance.

    But I speak from the worst-case-scenario perspective of conflictor marriage. Still. No opposing-quadra partner, no, no, no.

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The essential personality trait which I find essential for having a relationship with me -- perceptivity. I'll often "take someone on" to get a sense of where they stand, overtly presuming, to their face, the worst about them. I respect a person who can see through that, a person who doesn't mind being tested. Someone who sees my good character -- that's essential. It does not do to be with someone who is undecided whether I'm a positive or negative social influence... I try not to even keep such people as friends.

  12. #12
    lump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    TIM
    Fi/Te 641 sp/sx
    Posts
    12,629
    Mentioned
    635 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    i'm not really hip to this idea of opposing quadra marriage for the sake of the children considering that the well-being of the parents and the way they role-model relationship behavior is so important in a kid's development. i wouldnt say its necessary to be all scientific about who you love to the point of only considering a dual, but looking for a superego to "mate" with just seems really weird lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    What I'd like know -- what everyone would like to know -- is this: with tens of millions of singles in the Western world, how do two people decide to stick with each other over all the other choices? Beyond that, how SHOULD they decide on who to stick with? What kind of choice improves both their own lives, and the lives of the people around them?
    i think it just kinda happens. i'm not sure if it really should be any different. free will, romance, all that good stuff.

    well...i can find a lot of "buts" in my head when i read that back. a lot of things are important when selecting a partner, socionics compatibility being only one of those factors. but for gosh sakes lets not become androids lol.

  13. #13
    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Holy Temple of St. Augusta
    Posts
    3,693
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    The essential personality trait which I find essential for having a relationship with me -- perceptivity. I'll often "take someone on" to get a sense of where they stand, overtly presuming, to their face, the worst about them. I respect a person who can see through that, a person who doesn't mind being tested. Someone who sees my good character -- that's essential. It does not do to be with someone who is undecided whether I'm a positive or negative social influence... I try not to even keep such people as friends.
    Please, can and will you elaborate?

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Please, can and will you elaborate?
    It's very simple: I don't mean to allow that I be stabbed in the back by someone because they are under the impression I'm a bad guy.

    Basically, I want someone who's ENFJ-proof.

  15. #15
    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Holy Temple of St. Augusta
    Posts
    3,693
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    It's very simple: I don't mean to allow that I be stabbed in the back by someone because they are under the impression I'm a bad guy.

    Basically, I want someone who's ENFJ-proof.
    So, you will only accept people in your life that are already inclined to think you are not a bad guy? In other words, you don't care(or have the power?) to change another's view of you?

    I would say that is a limiting view to follow, but as survival is the most important goal, it is justified, in my opinion.

  16. #16
    lump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    TIM
    Fi/Te 641 sp/sx
    Posts
    12,629
    Mentioned
    635 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    So, you will only accept people in your life that are already inclined to think you are not a bad guy? In other words, you don't care(or have the power?) to change another's view of you?

    I would say that is a limiting view to follow, but as survival is the most important goal, it is justified, in my opinion.
    isn't this generally the case for most people? a lot of like/dislike has to do with perceived reciprocity.

  17. #17
    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Holy Temple of St. Augusta
    Posts
    3,693
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    isn't this generally the case for most people? a lot of like/dislike has to do with perceived reciprocity.
    But perceptions are subjective. I don't care to change someone's opinion of me if they won't, but I will not let them think I am something I am not.

    I give everyone a chance because I understand there are misunderstandings.

  18. #18
    Creepy-Snaps

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Even with duality there would be no balance for the child itself.

    I settled on Super Ego being the perfect relationship for having children.
    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    Interesting you should say that...My parents are probably super-egos, and they have done a wonderful job raising me and my siblings.
    Just being nitpicky (Ti), but pointing out a difference: I think you mean Super-ego is best for the children, growing up in a more psychologically balanced environment no matter what their type. I believe Duality is still best for the married couple... easier for the parents raising the children.

    Of course people have different opinions on whether it's better long-term 'for the children' for parents to focus on raising them or on their own marriage. I still think a healthy marriage is best for the kids to grow under, to be raised in a loving environment, even if children don't see eye to eye with their parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    But, what about when what you really desperately need, due to environmental conditions beyond your control, is the touch of a type other than your dual?
    Please expand what you mean by "environmental conditions beyond your control". As you noted, your dual is the best at bringing about positive change for you, opening your eyes and seeing opportunities, etc. Benefactors and Supervisors are helpful too, but I think their version of positive change is tougher to swallow. But please expand your argument: until you mention what kind of environmental circumstances you mean, I still think duality is the best for changing, or any kind of other 'touch' that you need.

    And as for your other question, is duality a perfect criterion for marriage? I guess a perfect criterion, yes, but not a perfect requisite. Certainly a perfect criterion for getting along, lasting long-term, having an intimate understand and shot at true love. But even some may not focus on getting along with their partners as importantly, but rather focus on raising kids, reaching their life/career goals, etc.

  19. #19
    UDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East Coast West Coast Dirty South
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    14,826
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    socionics is not 'the answer', there is no 'THE ANSWER', there's lots of parts to it all

  20. #20
    UDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East Coast West Coast Dirty South
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    14,826
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Z: i mean, i know socionics works
    z and i've had a number of differen intertype relations play out in real life
    z: but i'm not at a point where i can really predict things with it
    z: which is where i want to be
    s: Socionics doedsn't predict.
    seriously.
    or at least I don't think it'se useful for that.
    well what's the point of it then?
    socionics explains the skeleton of someone and how and hwy they make or made decisions
    it provides context
    maturity level, experiences, drive, culture, beliefs, those are predictors.
    not socionics.
    oh yeah true
    re: context
    socionics pay provude the way in which those preditors will PLAY OUT
    but socionics is not
    i've found that helpful in understand why things happend
    the prediction.
    oh yeah
    i know
    right,e xatly.
    i mean, like sort of predicting
    like trying to matchmake people
    i mean obviously it might not work out
    but
    theres a greater chance it might
    Socionic sshoulndt be any more prioty a factor than things like culture belifs direction in life maturity
    it's just one part
    of the whole.
    i know
    the only reason people want it to be THE ANSWER is because they are sort of, imo, desperate or delusional enough to think there is one.

  21. #21
    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Holy Temple of St. Augusta
    Posts
    3,693
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The only bad thing is that once you know you can have better you won't settle for less.

  22. #22
    jessica129's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    10,122
    Mentioned
    68 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Duality or not, marriage is a bitch. Don't do it. Be free. Love many.

  23. #23
    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Several stories high
    TIM
    EIE prob 6
    Posts
    2,969
    Mentioned
    106 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Mmm, I liked marriage.

    I say this even having been married to a conflictor.

    I just didn't like being married to him in particular. And even then, most days, it was not a disaster. Just impossible to put our lives together in a way that was fair to both of us.

  24. #24
    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Several stories high
    TIM
    EIE prob 6
    Posts
    2,969
    Mentioned
    106 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Duality is hardly a perfect criteria and is extremely overrated (going by all potential dual experiences I had with both Gamma irrationals and any other typed person). Common values, common interests, mental rapport, etc, etc are not related to type (it may increase the likelihood of finding the right commonalities and balancing differences, but to think you will get that with everyone of a given type is anything but true). The vast majority of compatible persons, in typological context, won't do it. It takes a very special match based on common objectives and many other things, I would imagine. It's a good theory but is overrated in terms of more pressing factors in establishing any sort of relationship, really, especially something as weighty as marriage.
    I agree duality may not be a perfect criterion, and I agree it may be overrated. BUT, but, but ... common values, goals, and mental rapport? It depends on how you're defining them, but I had those things with my ex, and they may not go as deep as you think, and, worse, they can change. What seems important to me is something deeper that lies beneath. The Socionics-y idea of psychological comfort, of being able to be yourself with someone, is more important imo.

    Duality doesn't promise that no problems will come up. It may even exacerbate some problems, depending on the people in the relationship. (In my limited experience.) The point of duality to me, so far, is that duals may be more likely than other pairs to have the basic tools to deal with problems in a way that's satisfactory to both parties.

  25. #25
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Nobody really relies on each other like they used to. The information age is the age of the narcissist. It has its ups and downs. Upside, people are tremendously more self-sufficient than we were in the past... we have all the information we need to live okay lives, if we just follow it.

    We also have the means to turn everything into a competition because of all the opportunities that technology has given us, and how quickly we can absorb the 'know-how' of stuff. It's not a bad time to be a strong and smart guy. (Like it ever was)

    The downside is that a sense of community has been eradicated. People feel lonely, and unloved. Not many people really truly, genuinely deep down even LIKE each other like they used to. We try to fill that gap with stuff and buying stuff, but we still feel a lingering like something is missing. Once again, only people with big hearts like Numbers, me and bionicgoat can save this sorry world from its own destruction. =D But mostly it's gonna be Numbers. 'Cause that guy rocks.

  26. #26
    "Information without energy is useless" Nowisthetime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    near Russia
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    1,025
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I don't think duality is overrated. You just have to find the right dual, that's very important. And fall in love. It's just based on what I see around me all the time and also long before I found socionics.

    I remember some 13 years ago I met this young SEE-ILI couple who had fallen in love and were getting married right away. The SEE (a man) was good looking, very cool, trendy. The ILI girl was not so good looking, a little nerdy. I remember thinking why is he marrying her, what does he see in her? (Low thoughts, I know, but I reacted that way). I didn't know about duality then.

    My SEI friend is now married since 2 years and has a small child. Her husband is ILE.

    My LII friend (still single) has had a lot of relationships. He says that the relationships that meant the most to him to this date was with miss K and miss A (K=ESE, A=LII)

    There are so many examples of this when someone has found somebody very special and it turns out to be a dual. I just can't deny it.

    Maybe this was not exactly what the original question was about, sorry.

  27. #27
    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Space
    TIM
    Seer
    Posts
    12,811
    Mentioned
    368 Post(s)
    Tagged
    9 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Gah. Having actually done the marriage/divorce thing now, I'd say just go find a decent freaking dual. Although it's true that I'm Beta, my ex is Delta, and my son is Alpha, meaning that the child has parents in his adjacent quadras, I cannot possibly imagine how that benefits him more than having parents who really understood each other, could allow each other to grow, and could have stayed together would have.
    Bingo. The most important thing in a child's development is having a healthy stable family with parents who get along, understand, & love and respect each other. Children can definitely sense conflict & resentment, and that in turn can be very damaging to grow up around.


    btw people, duality is not overrated. There is really nothing quite like it.
    Last edited by fox; 12-28-2010 at 06:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

  28. #28
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    Bingo. The most important thing in a child's development is having a healthy stable family with parents who get along, understand, & love and respect each other. Children can definitely sense conflict & resentment, and that in turn can be very damaging to grow up around.


    btw people, duality is not overrated. There is really nothing quite like it.
    How often have I said this?????????? ESPECIALLY HERE?????????

    I really do feel that no one listens to me.

  29. #29

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    49
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Duality is an airy and overrated concept imo...It's a point of view.

    Personally, I only do 'relationships' that benefit me. I don't care about other people.

  30. #30
    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Third Planet
    TIM
    IEE-Ne
    Posts
    1,631
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I know lots of marriages and by far the most stable are duality ones.

    Semi-duality is very common but it seems not to work that well. Partners eventually realize they strive for different goals in life. My parents (LII-EIE) just broke due to that... after 30 years, can you believe it?

    I know an LSE-ESI couple that, altough seems stable, is obviously not working fine. The LSE husband is constantly pushed by the ESI wife to keep producing more and more money, even when they are rich already. I've observed the humanitarian vibe in the LSE, which I assume would be highly praised by an EII. However, the ESI looks at it as it was something weird.

    I see IEEs often married to SEIs. They are OK but those marriages always struggle for money. No Te... IEEs like entrepeneuring and SEIs couldn't care less about it, much less do anything really useful to help.

    I suppose each kind of relationship fails similarily. I've seen several benefit relationships and they all have failed the same way. ESIs married to SLIs are doomed to fail; ESIs are control freaks and SLIs resent being controlled. I suppose LIEs take such attitude as a sign of commitment and interest.

    A lot can be said on the issue, but don't let yourself confused by the opinions around here. Duality is far from perfect but is the most comfortable relationship psychologically speaking. That alone makes it far superior to anything else.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

    You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life.
    - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.

  31. #31
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,375
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    The only bad thing is that once you know you can have better you won't settle for less.
    yep, once you go dual you can't go back.

  32. #32
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    But, what about when what you really desperately need, due to environmental conditions beyond your control, is the touch of a type other than your dual?
    That's honestly impossible tcaud. I'm not trying to idealize duality. But what they do for you *is* always naturally - everything you need. There is nothing else. It's as good as it gets. Thinking otherwise makes a person become narcissistic. 'Always thinking there's something better around the corner.'

    The only thing I ever need is personal, physical willpower to overcome objective physical obstacles that stand in my way of changing/growing/evolving, of not being stuck in unhealthy and repetitive psychological patterns. It's really the only thing that's blocked in me- all else is just fluff. It's the cutting of fluff. It doesn't mean that I'm necessarily going to feel all romantic or misty-headed when an estp calls me out on my shit. It isn't like that. But it's always what I need. Not maybe what I think I want, but it is what I need. And I can always go 'Oh. Okay.'

    EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TIME.

    Again don't think that it has anything to do with idealizing people because it really doesn't. But, duals are the person that makes you function in the outside world without feeling like society is out to get you or that you are the world's victim. Without them I wouldn't try anything and without me they would destroy everything out of anger because they wouldn't feel the love and peace of true pure heart meaning.

  33. #33
    UDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East Coast West Coast Dirty South
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    14,826
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    No offense, duality champions, but, I can name a few EIIs on this forum that I would pretty much freak if I were married to them.

    How is it that someone's entire psychological disposition and relationship competence, no less marriage capacity, is reduced to an intertype relationship?


    The core of what actually makes a relationship function is being aware of how you breakdown during stress and what things you prefer or look for outside of yourself. If you find someone who gels with that, good deal.


    ...again, I think socionics should be seen as one factor, not THE factor. Just like opposing quadras may struggle in a relationship, opposing life views and cultural backgrounds may struggle.

  34. #34
    UDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East Coast West Coast Dirty South
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    14,826
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    That's honestly impossible tcaud. I'm not trying to idealize duality. But what they do for you *is* always naturally - everything you need. There is nothing else. It's as good as it gets. Thinking otherwise makes a person become narcissistic. 'Always thinking there's something better around the corner.'
    Ok, I'm really starting to get creeped out by this kind of attitude. What are you guys trying to make socionics out to be? I couldn't disagree with the bolded statement more...

    I mean, seriously - do you suppose that all duals are inherently designed to pull you in the right direction in life? I don't know about you all, but, my interactions with my duals hardly all fit into the same category. One married a military man and ended up being a stay at home mom, one wants to travel the world, one wants to write childrens books, one wants to get a PhD and have a career in a field I could care less about, one wants a quiet religious life.

    And all of their maturity levels and life directions are different. The idea that you put me with one of them and say "NOW BE HAPPY FOREVER", they have all you need, is bullshit. If that's how you choose to view relationships, then, go ahead, but I'd suggest your just as naive as anyone else, if not more so.

    It's a little bit too much system > reality for my liking.


    The only thing I ever need is personal, physical willpower to overcome objective physical obstacles that stand in my way of changing/growing/evolving, of not being stuck in unhealthy and repetitive psychological patterns. It's really the only thing that's blocked in me- all else is just fluff. It's the cutting of fluff. It doesn't mean that I'm necessarily going to feel all romantic or misty-headed when an estp calls me out on my shit. It isn't like that. But it's always what I need. Not maybe what I think I want, but it is what I need. And I can always go 'Oh. Okay.'
    That's useful.
    (I think that applies to most NFs)

    EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TIME.

    Again don't think that it has anything to do with idealizing people because it really doesn't. But, duals are the person that makes you function in the outside world without feeling like society is out to get you or that you are the world's victim. Without them I wouldn't try anything and without me they would destroy everything out of anger because they wouldn't feel the love and peace of true pure heart meaning.
    That's romantic and sweet.

    ... apparently a lot of people like using the romanticised vision of duality to derive a sense of meaning and belonging. --- with my dual I know they need me, etc etc etc.

    Things you tell yourself to feel better, yeah?

  35. #35
    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Several stories high
    TIM
    EIE prob 6
    Posts
    2,969
    Mentioned
    106 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    No offense, duality champions, but, I can name a few EIIs on this forum that I would pretty much freak if I were married to them.

    How is it that someone's entire psychological disposition and relationship competence, no less marriage capacity, is reduced to an intertype relationship?


    The core of what actually makes a relationship function is being aware of how you breakdown during stress and what things you prefer or look for outside of yourself. If you find someone who gels with that, good deal.


    ...again, I think socionics should be seen as one factor, not THE factor. Just like opposing quadras may struggle in a relationship, opposing life views and cultural backgrounds may struggle.
    Forgive me, but ... (lol)

    I am beginning to suspect that the LSE-EII dual pair may be less likely to form than some others. I think my LSE ex, if he knew about Socionics, would have a similar attitude to yours, Ryu, that the EIIs he'd identified were not right for him. And for months I've been receiving emails from what appears to be an LSE who thinks I would be perfect for him. I'm not. I expect that guy would not be likely to pinpoint an EII in his environment as right for him. Sure this is just anecdotal, but it's something I've wondered about after hearing from EIIs who can't find their dual.

    Both my ex and the e-mail pursuer seem to think that I could/can be molded into what they want. They also seem to have, deep down, this idea that you can make marriage and relationships work. I'm not sure they'd put it that way themselves. But they seem to elevate pragmatism and control to a level that is untenable where human relationships are concerned. Where love is concerned.

    Both my ex and the email guy have done the same thing: lay out a practical case for wanting me and get into planning how to be with me. They also easily form/formed a sentimental kind of attachment to me that overrides real wisdom. I sort of see both these men as potentially doomed to end up in unsatisfactory relationships because they are out of touch with ... something. I don't know if I could call it that Ni/Fe problem of not being able to read the vibes and see the long-term picture of how the relationship will play out or what, but it could be one way of viewing the matter.

    I don't recommend using this forum's duals as a litmus test for what your duals are like. First, you don't really know them, second, they are not spokespeople for their type. Nobody is.

    I do think of myself as a spokesperson on this forum in a way, lol. Redbaron, too. We married our conflictor and supervisee, respectively. We both are experimenting with dual relationships: what is duality, how does it feel, how does it differ from other relations, etc. So think of me as a negative example, if you will, of someone who made the same mistake you might, of thinking, quite understandably (and led by an LSE into this thinking), that two well-intentioned, good-hearted people can always make a relationship work, and that one's personal will matters more than funky underlying psychological factors beyond one's control.

    If someone can't read the vibes and the signs for what the future looks like, then that person more than anyone else should take Socionics seriously.

    I see from your previous post that you know some duals. Have you known them over the long-term? Because that's what counts, and it's what Socionics best describes: the long-term viability of a relationship. I don't know how to make this clear to someone whom I expect is not holding that long-term picture inside above all, but I will say this:

    Making your mind up against duality in advance, based on short-term indicators, isn't logical, even if your arguments are logical.
    Last edited by golden; 12-29-2010 at 04:09 PM.

  36. #36
    lump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    TIM
    Fi/Te 641 sp/sx
    Posts
    12,629
    Mentioned
    635 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    ryu, i havent gotten the impression anyone is saying ANY DUAL WILL DO AS LONG AS ITS A DUAL. or at least i hope thats not what they mean, cos that really would be pretty silly.

    i think that things like conflicting goals are much more easily worked out if there is psychological compatibility, and i think that should be considered.

    idk, i'm not in the "it has to be duality" camp and i'm not in the "outside factors render socionics essentially useless" camp either. i just feel like it doesnt have to be that complicated with awareness and common sense? maybe it has to do with Fi ego, but i dont really see relationships as something to be hinged too much on theory or objectivity in general. i think people should be aware of socionics factors but not rely on the theory entirely.

  37. #37
    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Several stories high
    TIM
    EIE prob 6
    Posts
    2,969
    Mentioned
    106 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton2 View Post
    Sometimes ISFjs say or do something that's mesmerizing and strikes some unconscious chord. And it surprises the hell out of me and is nice because I didn't know someone else thought/felt the same way I did about whatever.

    But then there's a lot of other shit about many of them that'll make me hateful when I catch sight of it. Stuff about the person(s). I think it's easy to feel hyper-critical of duals when you see them as being fuckups/dipshits in some way. And I get decisively intolerant of their faults more than I normally would any other person's.

    So yeah uh, I don't think this stuff is easy as you guys make it out to be lol.
    I do understand this. What you said in the first para, about someone else thinking and feeling the same way as you, and that surprising you? That's really cool. Imagine how important that kind of thing--thinking/feeling like you do--can be over 20 or 30 years.

    I also understand what you mean about duals bugging the hell out of you, because yeah, I see my dual's faults really clearly. It's also almost like, as duality unfolds, those faults are being thrown in my face, and mine in my dual's. I'm not sure why this is. It's almost like, the psyche, in the presence of someone who seems to be able to see me clearly and fully, wants to unleash a lot of pent-up stuff. It's like I'm TOO relaxed and things start bubbling up.

    Again, the things you're seeing, although they could just arise from instances of particular duals who are not right for you, they also could be things that over time will fade into nonproblems or resolve themselves in some way.

    The other thing: people are messy little buggers.

    I think part of the reason my LSE ex felt good being with me was that in conflict, the funny thing is how very difficult it is for conflicts to come to the surface. Everything remains stuffed down very deeply, and you can just focus on arranging the surface. The surface is something that can be managed and controlled.

  38. #38

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    South Korea
    TIM
    INTJ - intuitive sub
    Posts
    214
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Ok, I'm really starting to get creeped out by this kind of attitude. What are you guys trying to make socionics out to be? I couldn't disagree with the bolded statement more...

    I mean, seriously - do you suppose that all duals are inherently designed to pull you in the right direction in life? I don't know about you all, but, my interactions with my duals hardly all fit into the same category. One married a military man and ended up being a stay at home mom, one wants to travel the world, one wants to write childrens books, one wants to get a PhD and have a career in a field I could care less about, one wants a quiet religious life.

    And all of their maturity levels and life directions are different. The idea that you put me with one of them and say "NOW BE HAPPY FOREVER", they have all you need, is bullshit. If that's how you choose to view relationships, then, go ahead, but I'd suggest your just as naive as anyone else, if not more so.

    It's a little bit too much system > reality for my liking.



    That's useful.
    (I think that applies to most NFs)


    That's romantic and sweet.

    ... apparently a lot of people like using the romanticised vision of duality to derive a sense of meaning and belonging. --- with my dual I know they need me, etc etc etc.

    Things you tell yourself to feel better, yeah?
    you have no idea how perfect you are for your dual. In particular a EII friend shares that same lashing tongue. EII are made out to be humanitarians but they have standards that often leaves them isolated but they maintain their diginity by remaining true to their own personal standards. However a EII can rant and rave about the opposite sex saying how women want to meet a nice guy and he considers himself a nice guy (which he is not really - I always have to do a reality check and remind him your a guy first and foremost and that is how women view you and what do women think most guys want?). In the same manner his views on religion often involes an half-hour speil about how people turn to religion because their desperately seeking some meaningful existence, etc. He can be very self-righteous and place himself into a black and white stance - either your with me or your against me. The only other type that I have seen relentlessly criticize people or institutions is a LSE. Funny enough in a philosophic duality sense EII (each person has a duality) have that humanitirian breathe, they can really reach out to people in unexpected ways. The same can be said for LSE, they can be alot of fun and usually do not like chatter but activities of sort. LSE and EII can back you up when everyone else has turned against you.

    From what I have experienced LSE have the same range of emotional depth as EII - they can go beyond what I think perhaps other types would consider inappropriate or rough but can quickly redeem themselves. Actually a LSE friend will act like an asshole but then call himself an asshole and laugh it off - my EII friend will do something similar where their impluse is checked by their conscience - a EII will say something to jerk you around and then call himself a jerk and laugh it off. strange.

    here is another example of duals acting out duality but not necessarily together. At a bar a SLE is dj-ing dance music and she is the only one dancing amongst her friends but having a great time. Within our circle of friends a IEI is the only one dancing amongst our friends to the same beat and could care less that he is the only one dancing just like her. its purely coincidental than say providence but it certainly makes me think of socionics differently when paying attention to people and their interactions with their duals or abstence thereof instead of thinking of woe of is. I guess what I have been trying to do lately is match making for my friends with their duals instead of thinking of myself but I've gotten into alot of trouble because sometimes their duals are not single and I didn't realize that.

  39. #39

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    South Korea
    TIM
    INTJ - intuitive sub
    Posts
    214
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    perhaps another way of viewing duality is its not that they don't get along nor that they do not like each other etc. It could be they do not see how compatible they really are - they judge the image of themselves and their dual. So you could have a nerdy LII and and nerdy ILI who appear identical to a popular ESE and SEE. In a romantic sense duality can be true love or love unrealised. In friendship its a bond unsewn.

  40. #40
    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Several stories high
    TIM
    EIE prob 6
    Posts
    2,969
    Mentioned
    106 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton2 View Post
    But then maybe you'd probably start taking it for granted too. It's bound to lose it's impact after awhile.
    Sure, the impact phase of any relationship will wear away. But the dual couples I have pinpointed in my life, people who've been together a long, long time--they have this other stuff that comes to the fore. They have a lot of fun, appreciate each other, count on each other. It's not about impact, therefore. It's about that feeling of being at home in someone else, with someone else.

    Well, yeah. I think my 1st impressions of people are always an accurate signal. I've deliberately gone against them many times to 'test' them wondering "maybe I'm just being arrogant and judgmental." But nope it always ends up an exercise of me shooting myself in the foot and realizing I was right after all. So I go with it.
    I think I was preaching to the LSE here, not to the choir. I don't think LSEs are as good at this as you are with your strong Ni, sorry. Maybe I'm misjudging LSEs. Ime, LSEs can surprise me, as they're not closed-minded but will draw conclusions about people, negative and positive, based on stuff that seems only half relevant to me. And again, sorry, but over time I have seen their first impressions turn out to be oh so very wrong. In the workplace I have seen them get new people right through investigation, through trial-and-error, through calling on a team of people with various viewpoints to assess someone, but rarely or never on this sort of accurate flash of a first impression you're describing.

    I agree that conflictors are easy in that way. I feel like it's difficult to get close enough on a psychological level to fight about anything. I mean I have nothing in common with ISFps, wtf would we hate each other about?
    It's not impossible at all for me to find a conflictor with whom I do have something in common. I can carry on long conversations with conflictor men and find them very funny and interesting and understand everything they say.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •