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Thread: verbal precision

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    Default verbal precision

    the title of this thread is an example in itself of what i want to talk about. maybe i should have said clarity instead of precision? does the word "verbal" imply something you say out loud, and if so, do i have to specifically make sure you know that i'm referring to the written word, also? should i have titled the thread "language clarity," perhaps? but i'm sure there is possible confusion in that title, as well.

    this is something i struggle with a great deal. like, a lot of the time i will say something that vaguely points at what i want to say and then tack an "or whatever" or "or something" at the end and hope the general vibe of my thoughts get conveyed.

    type related?

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    Probably...

    All types filter information in and out differently so I'm sure it also influences how they present their speeches and writings

    For example, I was once listening to a girl going on and on about some concept, but I felt like it could have been summed up in one sentence. She was an ENFp... So maybe it was her Ne that I was a bit impatient with...

    I'm thinking some types like to be straight to the point and a matter of fact (Te valuing), whereas some may tend to want to explain more of how it fits together. (Ti valuing) etc etc

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    One better say something 'out loud'. I ain't reading walls of text with seemingly no beginning nor end. Get to the point you great socionicists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peteronfireee View Post
    Probably...

    All types filter information in and out differently so I'm sure it also influences how they present their speeches and writings

    For example, I was once listening to a girl going on and on about some concept, but I felt like it could have been summed up in one sentence. She was an ENFp... So maybe it was her Ne that I was a bit impatient with...

    I'm thinking some types like to be straight to the point and a matter of fact (Te valuing), whereas some may tend to want to explain more of how it fits together. (Ti valuing) etc etc
    come to think of it, i remember people on the forum complaining about IEEs for this reason. i dont remember encountering it irl but idk. i was also wondering if the ability to be concise might be related to one or both of the logical elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    One better say something 'out loud'. I ain't reading walls of text with seemingly nor beginning nor end. Get to the point you great socionicicts.
    wtf, we both only wrote a couple paragraphs. have a beer, relax.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    wtf, we both only wrote a couple paragraphs. have a beer, relax.
    I had one or two not counting the ones I broke. Sorry, won't happen again. Absurd's promise [sticks].

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    "Language Clarity" would have been the best way to convey this concept.

    You're the second EII on here who's evpressed this. What you need is a dual who's obsessively studied grammar, such as myself.

    IEEs do have the annoying habit of rambling to say one concept in as many ways as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    "Language Clarity" would have been the best way to convey this concept.

    You're the second EII on here who's evpressed this. What you need is a dual who's obsessively studied grammar, such as myself.

    IEEs do have the annoying habit of rambling to say one concept in as many ways as possible.
    Grammar reigns supreme. Re-type her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I had one or two not counting the ones I broke. Sorry, won't happen again. Absurd's promise [sticks].
    its cool bc its you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Grammar reigns supreme. Re-type her.
    lol. i am not taking a bite out of that pickle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    "Language Clarity" would have been the best way to convey this concept.

    You're the second EII on here who's evpressed this. What you need is a dual who's obsessively studied grammar, such as myself.

    IEEs do have the annoying habit of rambling to say one concept in as many ways as possible.
    i think youre right about the title of this thread. cool, thanks.

    its not about grammar so much as about thought-to-word-translation, if that makes sense (ack, another thing i cant find the words for). grammar is probably tangentially related, though.

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    Is it more:

    Quote Originally Posted by A
    ...............................or something. .................................... ................................. .........................and stuff. .............................. ............... ........................................ .....................or whatever. ........................... .........................
    or

    Quote Originally Posted by B
    ............................................ .................................... ................................. ................................... .............................. ............... ........................................ ................................. ........................... .........................



    Or something.
    The first (A) looks like little/low/no confidence in one's logic.

    The second (B), which I see repeatedly from certain posters, looks more like a general embarrassment or "I'm not good enough"-kinda outlook.

    When you say tack 'something' onto the end, where's this "end"?

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    Right, CILi. (I always pronounce your name, "Silly." Does it mean anything?) That's one of the rules of performing. Never let the audience know when you goofed. Especially never let the audience think you goofed when you didn't.

    Laf, saying something correctly is linked both to telling the truth and to grammar. If one uses incorrect grammar, one may accidentally tell a falsehood. If one tells a falsehood, then one certainly did not get one's point across adequately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    OMG, this is such a HUGE issue with me.

    1. Often I find it hard to verbalize my thoughts. In writing it's easier since i can think a bit and rewrite things, etc. and I can organize my haphazard thoughts as they come. When i'm speaking it's a completely different picture!

    2. The above and just the complex web of thoughts being generated results in the need for the long roundabout descriptions of what I'm trying to say, and then i sort of see that i'm not being understood. So then I try another way of explaining it, etc etc.

    3. Sometimes my sentence structure ends up being wrong as i'm speaking, sometimes i use the wrong words for what i'm trying to describe. I'll use some wrong word and people will be like "huh???".


    SLIs are the complete opposite--they say exactly what they mean more succintly than anyone could have said it. (and usually it's exactly what i'm thinking). I find this to be one of their qualities that brings me the most comfort and ease because it's one of the things i'm embarrassed about in myself. So if i just have them do the "official" talking, that's so great!

    What also brings me comfort and gratitude is when people give me a chance to verbalize what i want to say, how i want to say it, and just hear me out. I've found that the Ti-valuers are the least patient with this and end up cutting me off and assuming i have nothing useful to say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA
    Right, CILi. (I always pronounce your name, "Silly." Does it mean anything?)
    It's an acrostic-ish mash-up of "Chief Inspector Li", a character played by Jackie Chan in the Rush Hour series of films.

    (See pic below.)

    (The Asian one.)




    ILi's fine if you've still got that C-thing going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by DA
    That's one of the rules of performing. Never let the audience know when you goofed. Especially never let the audience think you goofed when you didn't.
    I'd never consciously thought of it 'til you brought it up, but IME, that's really true.

    And probably the fastest way to lose an argument around here.

    ...Or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by DA
    Saying something correctly is linked both to telling the truth and to grammar. If one uses incorrect grammar, one may accidentally tell a falsehood. If one tells a falsehood, then one certainly did not get one's point across adequately.
    This is kinda tricky.

    The less you say, the less opportunity you have to get your point across adequately.

    The more you say, the more opportunity you have to get your point across inadequately.

    What to do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CILi View Post
    What to do?
    Write notes. I find that to be the most dependable method of communication. Since I'm a visual person, it's good for me to be able to see what I say before I say the wrong thing. I'm good at spelling tests, but not spelling bees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DA
    I'm good at spelling "tests", but not spelling "bees".
    I'd say you did fine at both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Write notes. I find that to be the most dependable method of communication. Since I'm a visual person, it's good for me to be able to see what I say before I say the wrong thing. I'm good at spelling tests, but not spelling bees.
    same same same!!!
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    Writing is easy. Speaking isn't so bad unless I'm feeling very pressured. If I don't have the opportunity to use silence to gather my thoughts without prodding or more pressure put on me, it can fall apart; losing coherency, or starting off without any. I also need to work on my conversation skills.

    But, I rarely have to do much reorganizing of anything written. And if I'm relaxed, my speech also organizes itself in my head before I say it. Nerves are what can screw me up, in both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Right, CILi. (I always pronounce your name, "Silly." Does it mean anything?) That's one of the rules of performing. Never let the audience know when you goofed. Especially never let the audience think you goofed when you didn't.

    .
    wow, this is really awesome advice, abs...

    putting it into practice is hard though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Right, CILi. (I always pronounce your name, "Silly." Does it mean anything?) That's one of the rules of performing. Never let the audience know when you goofed. Especially never let the audience think you goofed when you didn't.

    Laf, saying something correctly is linked both to telling the truth and to grammar. If one uses incorrect grammar, one may accidentally tell a falsehood. If one tells a falsehood, then one certainly did not get one's point across adequately.
    I do this often (the "or something"). Yes, it's partly a lack of confidence in my reasoning. I'm also kind of openended too. There always is an "or something". I'm not sure that a concern for "audience" is going to change this habit. I've never been put in a position where I had to care about the audience enough to display ultimate precision or confidence. Most of the time, I'm just bullshitting with people. If they expect more, fuck em [or something].

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    Quote Originally Posted by straytk
    I've never been put in a position where I had to care about the audience enough to display ultimate precision or confidence. Most of the time, I'm just bullshitting with people. If they expect more, fuck em [or something].
    How does this play out in the workplace?

    Does Mr. Boss-man not mind?

    (And, if not, ...are they hiring?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by CILi View Post
    How does this play out in the workplace?

    Does Mr. Boss-man not mind?

    (And, if not, ...are they hiring?)
    Well, my goal is self-employment or getting an MLS and working in a quiet library where no one talks.

    That said, my employers have generally found me charming, if I had to say it. I mean, they would tell me that, so it wasn't an hindrance. I'm not totally ghetto, so I care to an extent, but I'm not on the other end either. In most jobs, I've made up for whatever faults I had with technical performance (mostly computer related), taking things on without anyone to ask me, or caring about other employees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by straytk View Post
    I do this often (the "or something"). Yes, it's partly a lack of confidence in my reasoning. I'm also kind of openended too. There always is an "or something". I'm not sure that a concern for "audience" is going to change this habit. I've never been put in a position where I had to care about the audience enough to display ultimate precision or confidence. Most of the time, I'm just bullshitting with people. If they expect more, fuck em [or something].
    omg, so SLI. lol.

    I guess you dont really care about this much, but this is what makes you guys sound/appear ULTRA confident. Confidence is about not caring what other people think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by straytk View Post
    Well, my goal is self-employment or getting an MLS and working in a quiet library where no one talks.
    LOL my ultimate dream goal is self-employment too!!

    That said, my employers have generally found me charming, if I had to say it. I mean, they would tell me that, so it wasn't an hindrance. I'm not totally ghetto, so I care to an extent, but I'm not on the other end either. In most jobs, I've made up for whatever faults I had with technical performance (mostly computer related), taking things on without anyone to ask me, or caring about other employees.
    you're SLI. Believe me.

    And yes I know you guys care about people a lot more than you admit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CILi View Post
    When you say tack 'something' onto the end, where's this "end"?
    i think it's more B.

    Quote Originally Posted by straytk View Post
    I do this often (the "or something"). Yes, it's partly a lack of confidence in my reasoning. I'm also kind of openended too. There always is an "or something".
    ya, same. and YES to the bolded. aghhh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton2 View Post
    I tend to value concision most; when people say what they mean in the fewest possible words. If someone's long-winded, I start thinking they don't know what they're talking about and just like hearing themselves speak.
    so...type related, you think?

    i'm not really long-winded irl (though my writing style online might tell a different story sometimes, heh). i manage to be rambly and vague in few words.

    another one of my older habits which i think i've pretty much cured myself of is saying "or" at the end of a sentence. prompting people to say, "umm...or what?" but either the "or" would comprise about 10 million alternatives which would take to long to list, or i would feel like it was self-evident and silly of them to ask.

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    It's my job to make others' writing more clear and efficient. One reason I do this work well is that I act as mediator among the writer, the client (usually a book publisher), and the postulated reader. I can put myself in the reader's place while keeping in mind the client's requirements and the need to be diplomatic and respectful toward the author.

    But since I spend so many hours weekly editing books, when it comes to communicating nonprofessionally on the Internet, I don't really give a shit.

    Also, my method of writing involves producing more information than needed, then whittling it down. Therefore, for me to achieve great clarity and precision requires multiple revisions. If I'm communicating off-the-cuff, I can't take the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Confidence is about not caring what other people think.
    What if you're confident that you can get other people to think the right thing? I don't necessarily care that everyone like me; that's type-related. I care that everyone have an accurate view of who I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peteronfireee View Post
    All types filter information in and out differently.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peteronfireee View Post
    I'm thinking some types like to be straight to the point and a matter of fact (Te valuing), whereas some may tend to want to explain more of how it fits together. (Ti valuing) etc etc
    Yes.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    I like being concise, but most of all, I feel the need to be accurate. Sometimes when I give research presentations, I trip myself up because I realize that I used a word that isn't 100% accurate, and I start explaining it too much. A helpful EII coworker told me, "I used to do that, too, but you have to remember that people don't know you used the wrong word. They're getting the gist of it, and you just have to move on."

    My LII can talk and talk and talk and talk about a concept. Sometimes I get frustrated and abruptly say, "I get it!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    What if you're confident that you can get other people to think the right thing? I don't necessarily care that everyone like me; that's type-related. I care that everyone have an accurate view of who I am.
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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    the title of this thread is an example in itself of what i want to talk about. maybe i should have said clarity instead of precision? does the word "verbal" imply something you say out loud, and if so, do i have to specifically make sure you know that i'm referring to the written word, also? should i have titled the thread "language clarity," perhaps? but i'm sure there is possible confusion in that title, as well.

    this is something i struggle with a great deal. like, a lot of the time i will say something that vaguely points at what i want to say and then tack an "or whatever" or "or something" at the end and hope the general vibe of my thoughts get conveyed.

    type related?
    It depends on who I'm talking to and how lazy I feel.

    If I think someone's stupid and/or not listening then I might be a little vague as I'm curious to find out how subtle I can be before their brain clicks.

    Mostly I've been criticised for being too too the point.

    I dunno if it's type related, as overall if I think someone's not worth it I'll have a whatever attitude to speaking to them, which is probably the same for most people.

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    i definitely have problems putting my thoughts into words and then sometimes when i've succeeded in doing so i often end up having problems with them and not knowing if i even agree with myself.

    i don't seem to mind "long windedness" in others or rambling (i can ramble so i'm sympathetic), although one-way conversations where one is just being talked at (for extended periods of time with no exchange, like being lectured sort of) are not fun, and i do sometimes have my moments of impatience where i'm wondering "what is the point exactly" which often arise out either issues with time (i.e. only having so much time for the conversation, which was never a problem before i started working) or feeling like my concentration is lapsing too much (my mental state just hasn't been awesome lately).

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