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Thread: INTps and war idealism

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Default INTps and war idealism

    I can't help it. I love to idealize WWII, deployments, the front lines, and I love war games, especially the Army Men and COD(older) series. I've also read a few war books. Movies? Don't get me started.


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    Sir Knight's Avatar
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    War and everything related to it is pretty fucking cool when you don't have to fight in/live through it.
    4w5 sp/sx

    Please, direct all questioning of my self-typing to this thread. Thank you.

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    People die in wars.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    ^ Note I put idealism. i.e. desensitization

    This film is a must see

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    CILi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold
    Note I put idealism. i.e. desensitization

    This film is a must see
    Note Not for children. i.e. a childhood of nightmares

    That film's awesome, though.

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    UDP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    War and everything related to it is pretty fucking cool when you don't have to fight in/live through it.
    Yeah...

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    Sebastian Junger, commenting on his experience in warfare. He wrote a book called "war", and this is from a talk of him commenting on his finding.

    You could almost say he points out the draw to "combat" as being something

    ---
    We’re at one of the most exposed outposts in the entire US military, and he’s crawling out of his skin because there hasn’t been a good firefight in a week. How do you bring a guy like that back into the world? Civilians balk at recognizing that one of the most traumatic things about combat is having to give it up. War is so obviously evil and wrong that the idea there could be anything good to it almost feels like a profanity. And yet throughout history, men like (Mack), (Rice), and (O’Berne) come home to find themselves desperately missing what should have been the worst experience of their lives. To a combat vet, the civilian world can seem frivolous and dull, with very little at stake and all the wrong people in power. These men come home and quickly find themselves getting berated by a rear base major who has never seen combat, or arguing with their girlfriend about some domestic issue they don’t even understand.
    When men say that they miss combat, it’s not that they actually miss getting shot at – you’d have to be deranged. It’s that they miss being in a world where everything is important and nothing is taken for granted. They miss being in a world where human relations are entirely governed by whether you can trust the other person with your life. It’s such a pure, clean standard that men can completely remake themselves in war – you can be anything back home: shy, ugly, rich, poor, unpopular – and it won’t matter because it’s of no consequence in a firefight, and therefore of no consequence, period. The only thing that matters is your dedication to the rest of the group, and that is almost impossible to fake. That’s why the men say such impossibly vulgar things about their sisters and mothers; it’s one more way to prove nothing can break the bond between them, it’s one more way to prove they’re not alone out there.
    War is a big and sprawling word that brings a lot of human suffering into the conversation. But combat is a different matter. Combat is the smaller game that young men fall in love with, and any solution to the human problem of war will have to take into account the psyches of these young men. For some reason there is a profound and mysterious gratification about the reciprocal agreement to protect another person with your life. Combat is virtually the only situation in which that happens regularly. These hillsides of loose shale and (holly) trees are not where the men feel most alive – that you can get skydiving – but the most utilized. The most necessary. The most clear and certain and purposeful. If young men could get that feeling at home, no one would ever want to go to war again – but they can’t.
    So here sits Sargent (Brendan O’Berne), one month before the end of deployment, seriously contemplating signing back up. “I prayed only once in Afghanistan”, (O’Berne) wrote me, after it was all over. “It was when (Gestrapo) got shot, I prayed to God to let him live”. But God, Allah, Jehova, Zeus – or whatever a person may call God, wasn’t in that valley. Combat is the devil’s game – God wanted no part. That’s why our prayers weren’t answered – the only one listening was Satan”

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    I think it is more than an ILI thing. When I was young I used to enjoy giving into my primal instincts to fight and compete in some sports; no, this is what I enjoyed most about them at the time. This was what I was eager and reluctant to explore. I wanted to feel pain, become motivated by it, and push through it and succeed by making another fail. Supposedly the exertion of the body is rewarded with endorphins. The experience of acting uninhibitedly and with a mixture of fear and pain can be pleasurable and fulfilling and be interpreted by some as a spiritual act in this way.

    I think war can lead some people to feel most alive due to this, as they become most in touch with their instinctive humanity, whereas contemporary society forces us to control certain instincts and desires, even though this often becomes our own detriment. Some might become addicted to and idealize the warrior mentality that war has the potential to create because it allows a person to live what is considered the darker more animal (and destructive) aspects of themselves without shame and without restraint. With a warrior mentality, there is nothing to fear, because the whole self is acknowledged and all perceived injustices are fought for; there's a sense of living a most fulfilling life as a warrior.

    I feel this is what people most refer to when they say that society and technology is moving faster than our human instincts.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Definitely, war reverts human nature back to the basic motivation to survive. I can see how if you dwell in this state of mind long enough, civilian life can seem surreal. You are doped up on neurotransmitters for months and you come back to a life where people bug out over a 10 cent rise in gas prices.

    Personally, I sense the latent motivation in me and occasionally get urges to do wild things or just take off running to feel the adrenaline. Rarely do I lose myself in my urges, but the few times I have, everything else in the world seems to break away and the only things in existence are me and my target.

    Abstractly, war definitely seems to fit Gamma more than other Quadras. You could argue Beta for politics, but not the nitty gritty(except for maybe Beta-). There's brotherhood, awareness, fear, desire, planning, resourcefulness, praying etc.

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    Alphas find an excuse. Betas start wars. Gammas are left to fight and win or otherwise end them. Deltas clean up afterwards.













    Because everything can be made into socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    I love war games, especially the Army Men and COD(older) series.
    I play Battlefield 2 online every day.

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    Yeah, I can relate to this quite well. If I take a look at the pictures I drew when I was a child, there was always fighting and killing. I remember massive tanks with flashing machine gun fire and explosions as well as medieval warfare scenarios. (I was kinda into medieval stuff as a child, this and sci-fi. I guess it didn't change much, lol) In retrospect, I think I'd be a bit puzzled about this if I was a psychologist looking at those pictures.

    I actually have no idea where this is coming from. If I think about all the pain, suffering and death the wars brings, I hate it. It is often carried out in the most babaric way and I'm very glad that we're currently in peace (at least where I live). But at the same time, it also appears fascinating. I play war games, read info about weapons because I'm just interested in them. Commanders are very interesting personalities sometimes. Some battles even appear heroic... I have no explanation.

    I'm not sure if it's type related. Maybe it's just a 'guy-thing' as Ashton said before.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Alphas find an excuse. Betas start wars. Gammas are left to fight and win or otherwise end them. Deltas clean up afterwards.
    If Betas start wars then I must be Delta. I tend to like classical music that depicts war though, Like Shostakovich, though you would never think I found that out by myself...and I'm in to chess, civilization and risk, etc.

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    I am a weird gamma NT in this respect then. I kind of hate war, here it's still full of buildings that have been devastated by WWII, old people that keep on telling you how hungry they have been for years and how they ended up fighting their friends during the later part of the civil war. I guess it's true that italians aren't really made for war, we are a bit tender-hearted and sanguine towards life, war shatters all our rose-colored glasses.
    OTOH I'm all for a nice exchange of punches if it's really necessary, I believe today's society suppresses this kind of typically "male" exchange a bit too much, but I can't see the appeal of large-scale war unless you like to be hungry, probably dead, and fighting your brothers / friends etc.

    Of course though just reading about historic battles is nice, especially those that have been fought quite a long time ago, when weapons weren't so advanced and civilizations had starkers differences (i.e. persians agains hellenes etc.)
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    I am a weird gamma NT in this respect then.
    You're not. This thread is bullshit. Welcome to the16types.info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    This thread is bullshit.
    It's not worse than the typical thread here.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I guess it's true that italians aren't really made for war, we are a bit tender-hearted and sanguine towards life, war shatters all our rose-colored glasses.
    Modern Italians.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    It's not worse than the typical thread here.
    You're catching on.

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Modern Italians.
    The Romans weren't particularly blood-thristy, either. But yes, of course I'm referring to the last 500 years of history.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  20. #20
    Creepy-Korpsey

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    It's more a matter of civilians with soft hands and unstained consciences spewing romanticized conjectural bullshit about events from which they're wholly divorced by dint of the sacrifices made by those who actually do serve to protect their socio-economic freedom. Basically, fuck you.

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    damn you person who sees cold!
    unholy water sanguine addiction

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rps3y View Post
    It's more a matter of civilians with soft hands and unstained consciences spewing romanticized conjectural bullshit about events from which they're wholly divorced by dint of the sacrifices made by those who actually do serve to protect their socio-economic freedom. Basically, fuck you.
    Quote Originally Posted by timewaster View Post
    damn you person who sees cold!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I am a weird gamma NT in this respect then. I kind of hate war, here it's still full of buildings that have been devastated by WWII, old people that keep on telling you how hungry they have been for years and how they ended up fighting their friends during the later part of the civil war. I guess it's true that italians aren't really made for war, we are a bit tender-hearted and sanguine towards life, war shatters all our rose-colored glasses.
    OTOH I'm all for a nice exchange of punches if it's really necessary, I believe today's society suppresses this kind of typically "male" exchange a bit too much, but I can't see the appeal of large-scale war unless you like to be hungry, probably dead, and fighting your brothers / friends etc.


    Of course though just reading about historic battles is nice, especially those that have been fought quite a long time ago, when weapons weren't so advanced and civilizations had starkers differences (i.e. persians agains hellenes etc.)
    As in the Junger quote, I don't think it's war that is appealing. It's the thrill of the fight, the "combat". Having to live with the pieces or having to pay to deal with the mess isn't as fun as making it, as shattering the vase, the ceramic pot, whatever.


    @ the Patton quote...
    I think the idea of 'warfare' hits more on the subconscious desires to confront things in life instead of being weak, and accepting, or whatever. "Modern society" doesn't really give you much to fight against because it's such mass level actions -- the one part of Grapes of Wrath I ever remember is when the poor farmer threatens to shoot the guy with the machine tractor (from the corporation) with his shotgun, but the tractor guy says how it's pointless because they'll just send someone else.

    The desire to shoot "that sumbitch who's doing me wrong" is always there.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    lol @0:23 and 1:06
    Nice

    If you're into MMOs...


    I used to be in DOA. Miss the good years of RS :/.

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