View Poll Results: William Shakespeare's type?

Voters
1. You may not vote on this poll
  • ILE

    0 0%
  • SEI

    0 0%
  • ESE

    0 0%
  • LII

    0 0%
  • SLE

    0 0%
  • IEI

    0 0%
  • EIE

    1 100.00%
  • LSI

    0 0%
  • SEE

    0 0%
  • ILI

    0 0%
  • LIE

    0 0%
  • ESI

    0 0%
  • IEE

    0 0%
  • SLI

    0 0%
  • LSE

    0 0%
  • EII

    0 0%
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 58

Thread: William Shakespeare and his plays

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    992
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default William Shakespeare and his plays

    ENFp or INFj - that is the question.

    He was from Delta in any case.

    PS I think I am getting the hang of this.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


  2. #2
    emeye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    255
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Shakespeare

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    PS I think I am getting the hang of this.
    Can I have your liver, then?

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    992
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default The Truth

    Sorry, I have not promised my balls to anyone.
    I can give you a new type though...
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


  4. #4

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    6,074
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ... I'd say INFP, but who the hell knows? Who really knows what he was like?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

  5. #5
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE-Se
    Posts
    24,501
    Mentioned
    58 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Baby. No.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,018
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Actually, the more I think about it, the more ENTj seems to work. Some random things I've been playing with about the guy:

    - he was actually a very shrewd businessman; by 1597, he had earned enough to buy New Place, the second largest house in all of Stratford.

    - during the period of his life between 1585 to 1592 (known as "the lost years"), he supposedly worked as a schoolteacher, served as a soldier at the Battle of Zutphen under Sir Phiip Sydney, or was clerk to local lawyer.

    - when he writes about love, it falls somewhere just short of “romantic” – even in Romeo and Juliet you are struck by the fact that the love between the two protagonists is mostly pubescent carnal energy – “sex, sex, sex” not “love, love, love.” In his sonnets, his genius was to avoid saccharine sentiment: “In aith, I do not love thee with mine eyes, for they in thee a thousand errors note.”

    - he was a skilled rhetorician; reading Act 3: Scene 2 of Julius Caesar, you see this - Brutus' speech and then Marc Anthony's rebuttal immediately following. It's the envy of any politician.

    - he was a man consumed with his work, and was said to have been rather antisocial outside the context of the theatre; within a span of twenty years he wrote all of his thirty-seven plays as well as a great deal of poetry. All the while he was running his theatre company, directing and acting in his and other's productions, for the comapny which produced about fifteen plays each year.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    992
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Actually,
    I am not so sure anymore.
    It was a kind of intuitive illumination of the correct Quadra, but now it is back to the drawing board.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


  8. #8
    Memory of Tomorrow Reuben's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oh baby, baby, baby
    TIM
    No idea
    Posts
    1,928
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Shakespeare: Cordelia from King Lear

    Is she INTj? This INTj I know keeps hammering on about sincerity and accusing me of being a facade and stuff that it seems to me he sounds like Cordelia. He'd rather not spare the unpleasant truth and get banished than flatter people. He also doesn't mind being banished by being really sincere. Perhaps to me overly honest. Perhaps that's a quality or something. So is Cordelia INTj?
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

  9. #9
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    She's ISFj I'd say.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  10. #10
    Exits, pursued by a bear. Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    TIM
    It sneaks up on you
    Posts
    3,051
    Mentioned
    83 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    INFj... Cordelia, that is.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

  11. #11
    JuJu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Springfield, Massachusetts, USA
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    2,704
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    INFJ

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    345
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Socionics functions in Shakespeare's 'Hamlet'

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Shakespeare used and understood all functions masterfully in his plays.
    I'm currently reading and studying Hamlet. Although I obviously won't be able to talk about Socionics functions in an essay, would anyone care to take a Socionics look at Hamlet? I'd be very interested in any ideas

    Best regards
    Five/Tanzhe

  13. #13
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    To begin --

    Laertes's lecture to Ophelia in Scene 3, Act I is about , or, rather, about overruling . Polonius's lecture to Laertes is all +.

    The "to be or not to be" speech in scene 1, act 3 is about , especially as acting as "check" on .

    Claudius's speech to Hamlet in Act 1, scene 2 is about overruling .

    More to come --
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  14. #14
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,169
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This play is rife with Fe and Ni for obvious reasons. It's actually a very Beta NF play. Hamlet reminds me of Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment. Has no fucking clue about what to do about anything. He just goes on mad counterphobic sprees and hopes for the best.

  15. #15
    aka-kitsune's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    966
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I love the drama in Hamlet. Very much about runaway potentialities endlessly forestalling any decisive , I'd say...

    I certainly relate.
    Last edited by aka-kitsune; 05-23-2008 at 11:39 PM. Reason: italics!
    socio: INFp - IEI
    ennea: 4w5 sp/sx

    **********

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Twain
    Only kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we'.

  16. #16
    DJB28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    36
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Shakespeare: Hamlet

    What do you guys think?

    Here are some of my opinions.

    Hamlet: IEI
    Claudius: LIE
    Gertrude: SEE
    Polonious: SLE
    Laertes: SLE
    Ophelia: EII
    Ghost: SLI
    Horatio: ILI
    Rosencrantz/Guildenstern: LSI
    ENTp
    ILE

  17. #17
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ...You do know that Hamlet is the most commonly used concrete name for EIE, right?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  18. #18
    DJB28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    36
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    ...You do know that Hamlet is the most commonly used concrete name for EIE, right?
    Yea but I think the character was meant to be Introverted. Hamlet clearly had Fe and Ni- but I think the Ni was stronger.
    ENTp
    ILE

  19. #19
    redbaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    9,321
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I dunno, I feel like Hamlet was pretty dramatic. Pretty much EIE, imo. (I just watched the Kenneth Branagh version for about the fifth time and that probably colors my view. but still, I stand by EIE)
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  20. #20
    DJB28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    36
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Alright, EIE makes sense for Hamlet.
    What do y'all think about the others?
    ENTp
    ILE

  21. #21
    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southwest USA
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    6,728
    Mentioned
    237 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DJB28 View Post
    Alright, EIE makes sense for Hamlet.
    What do y'all think about the others?
    Besides Hamlet, yeah. I can go with the other typings. I like that you gave Laertes and his dad the same type; whatever they are, they're similar.

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-6
    Brilliand's Younger Sister
    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  22. #22
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,107
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Hmmm... I don't necessarily buy SLE for Laertes/Polonius. Maybe for Laertes, but Polonius seems way too terrible at constructing a logical sentence for him to be SLE. I guess he could just be a really dumb SLE, but I think of him as an ethical type.

    I really like Claudius = LIE, although his noted fondness for drink (and sexual obsession with Gertrude) could be viewed as an Si thing (but of course, alcohol has a variety of effects that have nothing to do with Si; but if it's motivated by taste/sensation, maybe Si). He certainly seems Te leading, with all that "your father died, but so did his father and his fathers' father, so get over it and move on" crap. The idea that wallowing in grief shows an "unschooled" understanding (rather than an hypersensitive emotional capacity) also seems very Te, and from a certain perspective, he has a point. He just looks stupid in this play because it's Hamlet's play.

    Hamlet himself doesn't have a type. Or rather, his behavior and mode of cognition does not seem to be accurately accounted for by the series of metaphors we call type/information elements. It's especially hard to distinguish between his Ni and his Fe. At times, the Fe is the product (interactions with Ophelia and the madness especially), and at times it's not. At times he seems to be introverted and philosophical at his core, and at times he seems to have no core thought, or philosophy, or speculative nature, and so his dynamic immaterial (emotional) expressions seem to be as close to his core as we're going to get. Merely because Hamlet exhibits a salient characteristic of the EIE (his essential changingness, almost paradoxical if you're a platonist), we type the EIE as Hamlet-like. This does not mean that we need to type Hamlet as EIE.

    EII for Ophelia makes a lot of sense, as does SEE for Gertrude, although her "willow grows askant a brook speech" feels Si (but I could see that as a temporary use of generally unvalued Si).

    ILI is interesting for Horatio. What makes you think ILI over a more traditionally staid, unchanging type, such as ESI or SLI? I suppose "give me that man who is not passion's slave" is a decent ILI description, but do you think the Fe polr accounts for Horatio's sudden desire for self-slaughter at the end of the play?
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  23. #23
    DJB28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    36
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Hmmm... I don't necessarily buy SLE for Laertes/Polonius. Maybe for Laertes, but Polonius seems way too terrible at constructing a logical sentence for him to be SLE. I guess he could just be a really dumb SLE, but I think of him as an ethical type.

    I really like Claudius = LIE, although his noted fondness for drink (and sexual obsession with Gertrude) could be viewed as an Si thing (but of course, alcohol has a variety of effects that have nothing to do with Si; but if it's motivated by taste/sensation, maybe Si). He certainly seems Te leading, with all that "your father died, but so did his father and his fathers' father, so get over it and move on" crap. The idea that wallowing in grief shows an "unschooled" understanding (rather than an hypersensitive emotional capacity) also seems very Te, and from a certain perspective, he has a point. He just looks stupid in this play because it's Hamlet's play.

    Hamlet himself doesn't have a type. Or rather, his behavior and mode of cognition does not seem to be accurately accounted for by the series of metaphors we call type/information elements. It's especially hard to distinguish between his Ni and his Fe. At times, the Fe is the product (interactions with Ophelia and the madness especially), and at times it's not. At times he seems to be introverted and philosophical at his core, and at times he seems to have no core thought, or philosophy, or speculative nature, and so his dynamic immaterial (emotional) expressions seem to be as close to his core as we're going to get. Merely because Hamlet exhibits a salient characteristic of the EIE (his essential changingness, almost paradoxical if you're a platonist), we type the EIE as Hamlet-like. This does not mean that we need to type Hamlet as EIE.

    EII for Ophelia makes a lot of sense, as does SEE for Gertrude, although her "willow grows askant a brook speech" feels Si (but I could see that as a temporary use of generally unvalued Si).

    ILI is interesting for Horatio. What makes you think ILI over a more traditionally staid, unchanging type, such as ESI or SLI? I suppose "give me that man who is not passion's slave" is a decent ILI description, but do you think the Fe polr accounts for Horatio's sudden desire for self-slaughter at the end of the play?
    Excellent analysis! SEE is a possibility for Polonius- I just didn't think an ethical type would have forbidden his daughter from being with the person she loved.
    Horatio.. I practically forgot about that ending. He seemed to be very low-energy and lacking in enthusiasm which was one of my reasons for picking ILI but of course.. this just means he's an Introvert of some sort.
    ENTp
    ILE

  24. #24
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,107
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DJB28 View Post
    Excellent analysis! SEE is a possibility for Polonius- I just didn't think an ethical type would have forbidden his daughter from being with the person she loved.
    Horatio.. I practically forgot about that ending. He seemed to be very low-energy and lacking in enthusiasm which was one of my reasons for picking ILI but of course.. this just means he's an Introvert of some sort.
    Thanks. That's a good point about forbidding Ophelia to marry Hamlet. But SEEs can be overprotective (I think), and Fi does tend to establish social expectations/value systems... maybe if someone transgressed the value system enough, they would no longer be good enough for his daughter? But really, the reason he forbids her is pretty much because being around Hamlet is dangerous, and protecting people can be associated with SLE. So I dunno.

    Yeah, I'd definitely say that Horatio's an introvert. Beyond that, I don't really know.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  25. #25
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Wrong. Dead energy. None of you know what you're talking about. Sucks it up. I'm waiting for truth, waiting for somebody to really know.

  26. #26
    DJB28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    36
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Wrong. Dead energy. None of you know what you're talking about. Sucks it up. I'm waiting for truth, waiting for somebody to really know.
    What!?!?
    Are you
    a.) A troll
    b.) Acting stupid
    c.) Angry about something unrelated to this thread
    ENTp
    ILE

  27. #27
    DJB28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    36
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Shakespeare's Richard II

    I read "Richard II" and think Socionics explains the relationship between the two main characters: Richard II and Bolingbroke.

    Both, probably for the sake of the play, are extraverts and are fine with speaking spontaneously and often.

    Richard II is an IEE and Bolingbroke is an SLE.
    One is poetic and emotional and the other is pragmatic and logical and seem like opposites in that respect.

    What do you guys think?
    Super Ego relation?
    Last edited by DJB28; 11-15-2009 at 11:37 PM.
    ENTp
    ILE

  28. #28
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,107
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Shakespeare

    Okay, so I searched and there's technically a topic about this but it's stupid so I'm making my own. Also, there's 6 pages of topics that have Shakespeare in them on the16types. Just thought everyone wanted to know that.

    Anyway... what type? My immediate bias is towards INFp, and maybe he didn't have a type because he was perfect at everything, or maybe we just don't have enough info about him to type him, but I'm looking for input.

    One thing that may indicate possible Fi-valuing is Sonnet 116, which talks about the permanence of love. Example: "Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks/within his bending sickle's compass come/Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks/but bears it out, even to the crack of doom./If this be error and upon me proved/I never writ, nor no man ever loved." On the other hand, the frequent boasts in the early sonnets of poetic immortality smack of Se-valuing (insofar as it is concerned with being of the foremost rank, pride of place, etc). Here's an example: "So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,/So long lives this, and this gives life to thee."

    I don't know if you can type this, but his bitterness about love is hilarious: "the expense of spirit in a waste of shame/is lust in action."

    So... yeah. What do you think?
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  29. #29
    Marie84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    TIM
    EII
    Posts
    2,359
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think he was most likely a Beta NF based on his writing, though I don't know much about him outside of that. He seemed to have a well-formed understanding of people/personalities, which may explain his ability to work with different IE's in his writing.
    EII INFj
    Forum status: retired

  30. #30
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,107
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Let's Type All of Shakespeare!

    Let's type every major character in Shakespeare. I'm going to do as many as I can now.


    Henry IV

    Falstaff: EXE, leaning towards ESE-Si
    Prince Hal: Eh. Gamma SF. Probably SEE.


    Hamlet

    Hamlet: Beta NF. I lean IEI over EIE, especially in Act V. But really typeless. Especially in Act V.
    Horatio: LSI
    Claudius: LSE
    Gertrude: IEE?
    Ophelia: IEI. Hamlet needed a dual. No Beta ST would ever put up with that shit. (Actually, they might, but only from a Beta NF they thought they were in love with).
    Polonius: ?


    Othello

    Othello: LSI
    Iago: IEI
    Desdemona: ?
    Iago's-wife-who's-name-I-forget: ?
    Roderigo: ESE


    Macbeth

    Macbeth: ? (very tentative: EIE?)
    Lady Macbeth: Oooh, SLE?


    Antony and Cleopatra

    Marc Antony: SEE
    Cleopatra: the archetypal EIE
    Caesar Augustus: LSE
    Enobarbus: LIE? EIE?


    King Lear

    King Lear: SLE, but also typeless, since he's in constant flux.
    Cordelia: Well, I thought she was EII, but the end of the play doesn't point to conflict relations, so I don't know.
    Edmund: Eh. IEI's an easy typing, but I don't really like it. LSI?
    Edgar: SLI? But would an SLI would be able to play pretend constantly like that and repeat Poor Tom's a-cold, so maybe an ethical or intuitive type? I don't like to type him ethical though, for some reason.
    The Fool: IEI


    Much Ado About Nothing

    Beatrice: ILI
    Benedick: SEE


    Romeo and Juliet

    Romeo: LSI
    Juliet: Beta NF, leaning EIE
    Mercutio: SLE


    Coriolanus

    Coriolanus: SLE
    Volumina: ESI
    Virgilia: Eh. Generic NF.


    The Tempest

    Prospero: Um, well... if he's an allegory of the imagination... sort of generic E4w5, not really an archetypal IEI but maybe a complex one that's integrated some Se into his life, like an IEI-C or something. How about... ILI? LII?
    Ariel: Eh... like he says, not human, but maybe IEE?
    Caliban: Ummm... stunted SLE?




    Okay, that's all I can do for now. So yeah! Let's type every major character in Shakespeare (and then we can do Tolstoy, and then Dickens, and then George Eliot, and then...). Yay!
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  31. #31
    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,808
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    As you like it

    Orlando = ESE
    Touchstone = ILE?
    Rosalind = EIE I mean she can't be Te valuing, cause her and Celia's plan is so damn retarded that no Te type would allow her to follow through, and I really think that only an EIE could make such a terrible plan work. And yes that is a compliment to EIEs

    EDIT: Maybe Te PoLR for her then?

    Also the idea of Romeo and Juliet being duals is charming but being so in love with some one that you kill your self when you can't have them is a very beta NF sentiment that is expressed by both characters. Also I don't think the idea of compulsive intimacy is a view that's as strongly shared by Beta STs. I had them both typed as IEI. However I'm willing to switch one to EIE, doesn't really matter which. In fact I'm fine with giving them both a general Beta NF tag without getting more specific.
    Last edited by JWC3; 08-11-2010 at 06:12 AM.
    Easy Day

  32. #32
    Marie84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    TIM
    EII
    Posts
    2,359
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I would have thought EIE for Henry V although I'm basing this more on Henry V and not his portrayal as Hal in the prior plays so you could be right. And yeah ESE makes sense for Falstaff

    Romeo as LSI may actually make more sense than EIE, which I thought he may have been


    Unfortunately I don't have much else to contribute since I haven't a 10th of the knowledge of Shakespeare as much as you have
    I did almost get the chance to see Christopher Plummer as Prospero in Tempest at the Stratford Festival but sadly it's been sold out for the season :frown:
    EII INFj
    Forum status: retired

  33. #33
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,107
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    Also the idea of Romeo and Juliet being duals is charming but being so in love with some one that you kill your self when you can't have them is a very beta NF sentiment that is expressed by both characters. Also I don't think the idea of compulsive intimacy is a view that's as strongly shared by Beta STs. I had them both typed as IEI. However I'm willing to switch one to EIE, doesn't really matter which. In fact I'm fine with giving them both a general Beta NF tag without getting more specific.
    But Romeo also spends half of his time (the half that isn't spent falling in love) killing people, which is as un-beta NF (stereotypically) as falling in love at first sight is stereotypically beta NF. Also, one of his big problems is that he woos by the book, which is rather Ti: memorize the modules and deploy them as necessary, make sure to swear by the moon, etc. Juliet uses Fe to teach him how to express his feelings more authentically. Also, I think a beta NF (IEI moreso than EIE) would be much more hesitant about love than Romeo is. I mean, I don't know that I would climb over a wall into the house of a bunch of people who want to kill me no matter how in love I was, and certainly not without several hours/days of prevaricating. And look at how fast he moves! He's totally an Se-ego. Also how he deals with Paris at the end is very SeTi: If you leave me alone and let me do what I'm doing, you can live. If you don't, I will kill you. These are the rules. Please don't break them, 'cause I'm not in the mood to kill anybody. Also, Romeo lacks emotional control--even when an EIE is overwhelmed, it's like, they're in charge of their emotions, not vice versa. Romeo's emotions are in charge of him, totally.
    I would have thought EIE for Henry V although I'm basing this more on Henry V and not his portrayal as Hal in the prior plays so you could be right.
    I haven't gotten to Henry V yet, but yeah, a lot of Henry's power comes from his emotional expression, cheering people on, etc. You can even see that in Henry IV. But... I dunno, I just don't want him to be an Fe-ego. Don't know why. Might think about it more. But EIE is the more obvious typing. Certainly an Se-valuer (unlike Falstaff, who *seems* to be an Si-valuer).


    EDIT: Also, infinite sadfaces about missing Christopher Plummer.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  34. #34
    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    everywhere at once
    Posts
    8,449
    Mentioned
    203 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Mercutio: SLE
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

  35. #35
    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,808
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    But Romeo also spends half of his time (the half that isn't spent falling in love) killing people, which is as un-beta NF (stereotypically) as falling in love at first sight is stereotypically beta NF. Also, one of his big problems is that he woos by the book, which is rather Ti: memorize the modules and deploy them as necessary, make sure to swear by the moon, etc. Juliet uses Fe to teach him how to express his feelings more authentically. Also, I think a beta NF (IEI moreso than EIE) would be much more hesitant about love than Romeo is. I mean, I don't know that I would climb over a wall into the house of a bunch of people who want to kill me no matter how in love I was, and certainly not without several hours/days of prevaricating. And look at how fast he moves! He's totally an Se-ego. Also how he deals with Paris at the end is very SeTi: If you leave me alone and let me do what I'm doing, you can live. If you don't, I will kill you. These are the rules. Please don't break them, 'cause I'm not in the mood to kill anybody. Also, Romeo lacks emotional control--
    You make a very good case, I'll concede. I suppose when I typed them I just couldn't see past the fact that they both killed themselves for love.

    even when an EIE is overwhelmed, it's like, they're in charge of their emotions, not vice versa. Romeo's emotions are in charge of him, totally.
    I do strongly disagree with this though. EIEs can lose control of their emotions just like every one else.
    Easy Day

  36. #36
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,107
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    I do strongly disagree with this though. EIEs can lose control of their emotions just like every one else.
    Yeah, I'll concede that one.


    Also, Hotspur is Beta ST.

    I think that Hal is Gamma SF because although he uses emotional expression to manipulate people and build a sense of normal-guy camaraderie with his soldiers, he's actually more of a hard-line Te-valuer who does things as they are expedient. He's isn't emotionally manipulative like, say, Medea is: she is a slave to her emotions (in her actions, not in her emotional expression---she, like Hal, can display any emotion that she wants), she has to go in the directions her feelings dictate, even up to and including killing her own children. But Hal doesn't follow his feelings at all, as seen in the rejection of Falstaff. And the part when he thinks Falstaff has died, he definitely has this vibe of loving Falstaff more than he consciously knows he ought to---but in the end that "ought to" voice, that voice of Se + Te pragmatism, totally wins out and governs all his actions. Like an EIE, he can choose to display whatever emotion he wants; certainly both types can do that. But EIEs, especially in the absence of LSIs, will ultimately base the actions they choose to make on emotions, on feelings, on what will create the emotional life they desire. SEEs on the other hand are more likely to ignore their emotional preferences in the pursuit of all the thing Hal pursues: esteem, the favor of people they care about (i.e., his dad), power, stability, etc. EIEs aren't as pragmatic as gammas, I don't think. And Hal is actually super-pragmatic. And quadra progression-wise, Henry V is definitely in a gamma phase, coming right after a civil war, putting rebellions down by force, creating stability, smoothing things out, making a stable country, etc.


    Midsummer Night's Dream

    Bottom: SEI-Fe (I saw a guy play bottom once, and even though the production as a whole was horrible, the guy playing Bottom was FANTASTIC AMAZING WONDERFUL EXCELLENT AWESOMENESS and I wish I had it on video to watch again it was so great).


    Also, I've changed my mind and now I think Macbeth is an introvert.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  37. #37
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Richard III: EIE

  38. #38
    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,808
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Puck = ? I have no idea, but I feel like this one is important.
    Easy Day

  39. #39
    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southwest USA
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    6,728
    Mentioned
    237 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This is a great idea. I'll bookmark it and participate later.

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-6
    Brilliand's Younger Sister
    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  40. #40
    The devil whispers close to my ears. Quote Unquote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    91
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Mercutio was an ILE

    "The name Mercutio was present in Shakespeare's sources for Romeo and Juliet, however his character was not well-established, and he was even presented as a romantic rival for Juliet.[1] Mercutio's name is related to the word "mercurial," meaning, "having an unpredictable and fast changing mood," an accurate description of Mercutio's personality. The word "mercurial" itself derives from the ancient Roman messenger god Mercury (Hermes)."

    Tell me, in what theoretical world do you live? Hermes, the god of intellect, the symbol of the soul and reason, the messenger of the gods (the element the rules matter and connects with the divine, in one word: spirit), the soulful one, the ethereal, wise, powerful, the creator of culture, Thoth in Egyptian mythology, the one who is full of trickery and fun, the one who rules mood and temper, who the fuck would think that all these characteristics would exist in a lead type. This can only be connected to . And Mercutio does embodies the archetype of Hermes, of a Enneagram 7, not an 8 like types.

    Mercutio is full of honor.

    "Mercutio is apt to make long, drawn out speeches (the most famous of which is the Queen Mab speech)"

    Doesn't it obviously point out at ILE?

    "and is generally thought to be reckless, a jester, and a free spirit."

    again.

    "Due to his reckless and flamboyant personality"

    7777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777

    "Mercutio is the instigator of many fights with his rather mean spirited humor, and often insults Tybalt Capulet, a renowned swordsman."

    Look at the ILEs on this forum, they are the instigator of fights here. Mercutio's provocations in Romeo and Juliet are always of intellectual nature, they have nothing to do with the survival instinct and ego imposition of SLEs. Compare Discojoe and me, who is the one who initiates most fights here? who is the one who creates most of the polemics here? Discojoe always say stupid crap, but never initates idealist conflects, they are usually started by infantiles. In two days I've made more noise than Discojoe in his entire life.

    "It is Mercutio's temper that leads to Tybalts death, and Romeos banishment and the tragedy that follows."

    These life turmoils are more common among strong ILEs than SLEs. Richard Wagner's life - who was indeed a Creative-ILE - was an exact match of what ILEs strong idealism can engender. His life was full of ups and downs only due strong idealism in regard of art, politics, philosphy, you name it.

    "He is not a Montague nor a Capulet, but his friends are Montagues, likely due to the fact that he cannot stand Tybalt of the Capulets. Mercutio is one of the few in Verona with the ability to freely float around both houses."

    Mercutio is more fond of the masculine house, Montague. This is again a symbolical allusion of Hermes, who was the only god with full access to both the underworld and to the Olympus. Hermes represents the spirit that rules the matter, and can be afflicted by the pains of matter (Capulet house : underworld) but always will be of pure Olympian Nature and more fond of the light and truth (Masculine house of Montague : Olympus). By using the word "float" in this exert of the wikipedia article, my Ne immediately uses its allegorical functioning. I can't help connecting it to the Styx river of the underworld. Romeo and Juliet is by quite of some extent, an allegoric story.

    "Due to his quick wit and flamboyant, affable personality, Mercutio is one of Shakespeare's most popular characters."

    This is also more an ILE thing than SLE. Many ILEs are that knid of person who you can never ignore, you'll either hate them or love them, because of the much more idealistic and universal approach and activism ILEs have, they fight for ideals. SLEs are mostly concerned about themselves and their particularity. SLEs are hated because of defending too much their egos, adn imposing it on others. By their lack of concern toward humanity. SLEs are hated because they are so readily to defend their own egoistical position, so they bother only those are a menace to their egoism. ILEs bother everyone by their high universal ideals (of course, there is a scale of evolution regarding ILEs. There are those who are weaker and not so bold. More strong types will be those are more psychologically structured and solid. Socionics doesn't give any tool for measuring this hierarchy within a single type. But enneagram does, it's called integration. Very integrated 7s are more coherent with this reckless idealist description of ILEs I gave).

    Ponder about Mercutio, do you see him more as an idealist or as an egoist? Draw your own conclusions.

    Regarding Shakespeare works, It indeed has a lot of Fe, from what I can remember. BUT, most surely, his stories and the essential meaning drawn by his works are not of his own source. It's clear to me that it has two layers. First: A shallow layer full of embellishment, expression, emotions, feelings and deeply symbolic, that are the form, the shape, the mold, are the sculptured figure. This was made by Shakespeare himself. And a second Layer: Allegoric, abstract, meaningful, prophetical, linguistic, interpretative, drawing many abstract essences and implications. For those who don't know it, Symbolism and Allegory are by no means the same thing. Allegory is more powerful and abstract, symbolism is more direct and material. There are no abstract symbols, in the same extent as there are no material allegories. An allegory is the process by which you use abstract concepts for representing other abstract concepts. Symbols are material representation of the material. Allegories (), in the most valuable symbolic works, always complete symbols by abstract implication (Ne is all about implication). This deeper allegoric layer in Shakespeare's works were not made by him, they are a non-Shakespearean substratum external to him. This substratum is totally allegoric (Ne) and are well known allegories used since the dawn of civilization, since Babylon, I can assure you. They are the marble on which Shakespeare used his tools for shaping his work ("Fe +Ni" on "Ne + Ti"). They were a part of his artistic inspiration. That's why, when you read Shakespeare, you can see he weakened the value and the strength of the allegoric concepts, by overly focusing on the shallow surface, by giving too much form and taking too much attention to superficiality. That's why when you read purely allegoric works, like most of the bible, you can have much deeper insights of significance and abstract completion, but in the other hand they are too shapeless. when you read Shakespeare, it's undeniable how much of the allegoric strength was lost, how most of the significance was downplayed. Significance is also not Ni related, since significance is 100% abstraction.

    You can compare Shakespeare with Cervantes or Homer, who were, maybe, some of the most important sources for Shakespeare. Cervantes and Homer wer surely Ne lead types, their work was not symbolic, neither emotional but only abstract, intellectual and allegoric. But in most of the time I dedicate myself to read Shakespeare than Cervantes or Dostoievsky (who are my favorites), because Shakespeare is more superficial, I relax more reading it, it's not a really meditative and philosophical kind of art. I can turn off my brain when I read the bard of Stratford-upon-Avon. His work is sweeter and much less prophetical.

    Sometimes, I fear, that in a less intellectual environment like our current world, Shakespeare would have made vain art, and would not direct himself through these Allegoric works of heritage.
    Ein neuer Mann

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •