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Thread: Quadra Progression - A new model

  1. #1
    Creepy-male

    Default Quadra Progression - A new model

    Bear with me, I don't have the energy to put as much effort into articulating this as it deserves....

    The typical model for quadra progression is the following....


    Alpha |--> Beta |---> Gamma |--> Delta

    Intellectual Revolution |--> Society Paradigm Shift |--> Industrial Revolution |--> Social Stabilization

    Democratic |--> Aristocratic |--> Democratic |--> Aristocratic


    Each quadra is represented in sequence as a society progresses forward....

    Let's call this Model X1






    I propose a different model, Model X2

    Instead each quadra is represented at all times like layers superimposed on a common reality. Think of it sort of like gears, as events turn in the "beta" layer, this affects the "gamma" and "alpha layer, which in turn effects the "delta" layer. All quadras are equally represented in society and interconnected.

    In other Words.....

    | - alpha/delta connection
    |
    Alpha |---> progresses forward
    |
    | - alpha/beta connection
    |
    Beta |---> progresses forward
    |
    | - beta/gamma connection
    |
    Gamma|---> progresses forward
    |
    | - gamma/delta connection
    |
    Delta |---> progresses forward
    |
    | - delta/alpha connection



    | - perceptual node (Ne/Si)
    | - impact of intellectual achievements on society (Ne, Si)
    |
    Democratic Intellectual Evolution of Society
    |
    | - intellectual revolution (enlightenment)
    | - changes in the role of person in society
    | - value node (Ti, Fe)
    |
    Aristocratic Paradigm Shifts of Society
    |
    | - revolution/military/industrial complex (militant coup, revolt)
    | - changes in how work is done before/after revolution
    | - perceptual node (Se, Ni)
    |
    Democratic Industrial Evolution of Society
    |
    | - impact of industry on mainstream society
    | - establishment of infrastructure
    | - value node (Fi, Te)
    |
    Aristocratic Social Stabilization
    |
    | - impact of intellectual achievements on society
    | - perceptual node (Ne, Si)




    The import elements to pay attention to are...
    • Nodes - Perceptual or Value
    • Quadra - Democratic or Aristocratic


    Nodes
    The separation between layers of quadras... information travels between quadras in this form. It is either a shift in perception (being a perceptual function Si,Se,Ni,Ne) or a shift in values. Betas and Gamma for example share a node of perception in Ni and Se. Most of the node involves the exchange of information concerning Ni and Se. Between an industrially oriented democratic quadra, a facet of society, and a more revolutionary oriented aristocratic quadra. A grounded analysis would be the shift from romanticism in history towards modernization, passing through gamma via the industrial revolution. Usually the node is concerned with how industrial infrastructure changes as a result of social revolution occuring in beta. Usually this is a matter of Se (doing things differently) and Ni (major concept shifts). It's largely perceptual, things are looked at differently, but no values are passed between the quadras as their are no common rational functions between betas and gammas.

    Quadra
    These are separate spheres or zones for societial evolution. Different subcultures if you will. Like how in society you may have american society imposed atop asain cultures, with vastly different values and evolution. Each quadra in a sense is a subculture undergoing its individual evolution being influenced by the surrounding quadras. Recieving outside input from the two other quadras in terms of values and perception. Alphas for example are constantly modifying their values based on betas (they share Ti/Fe) as Betas modify their values based on alphas. However Alphas perceptions are constantly being modified by their perceptual shifts with delta (they share Si/Ne). Alphas change perceptions considering the impact their quadra has on society and change their values in a similar manner with beta. In a sense Beta and Delta serve as arisocratic structures which moves together. Beta is revolutionary and ambitious, and delta is stable/humane/practical, with gammas serving as an industrial buffer and alphas serving as an intellectual buffer. With values and perceptual changes being passed via the nodes.

  2. #2
    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Interesting. You can clearly see this happening on a small scale perspective, people with similar perceptions trade views/experiences, but do not necessarily adopt new values due to having different judgments.

    I'll be studying it some more to gain a clearer mental picture.

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    we've been bandying ideas like this about for awhile and you have put it into a realistic package. nice job!

    how would you apply the left and right ring of supervision and benefit to your concepts?

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Bananas are good. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Well, society at large is largely Delta (and Gamma SF) regardless of what's going on around it, and I've conversely never seen a society ruled by Deltas, so there's that flaw to your model. It otherwise looks pretty good though. I'd shape it as follows:

    Alpha -> Beta -> Gamma

    Vision -> Change -> Status quo

    A good example of this is probably the Soviet Union. Alpha geek's ideas (Marx/ LII), leading to Beta revolt and regime (Stalin/LSI, Lenin/SLE, Trotsky/EIE -- predictably there could only be one in the end), leading to Gamma leadership (Pulitburo after Stalin's death).
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    I've conversely never seen a society ruled by Deltas
    In another thread I stated that Prussia could be a Delta society or at least ruled in a Delta way. If it comes to personal rights, they were progressive compared to other countries and they were also quite tolerant. (In contrast to their stereotype.) But on the other handside, they kept the three-class election sstem (which benefits the rich people) the longest time of all German states (aristocratic).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    A good example of this is probably the Soviet Union. Alpha geek's ideas (Marx/ LII), leading to Beta revolt and regime (Stalin/LSI, Lenin/SLE, Trotsky/EIE -- predictably there could only be one in the end), leading to Gamma leadership (Pulitburo after Stalin's death).
    Does that imply: Beta - dictatorship, Gamma - oligarchy (in terms of an one-party-government)?
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Bananas are good. Aleksei's Avatar
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    For the most part yes, but Gamma dictators have also existed, and many members of the general elite are Beta (mostly Beta ST). Though I hold that society is always and forever ruled by a narrow clique of elites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy) -- whether held by a one party government or not.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Inception Mastermind KeroZen's Avatar
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    Aleksei you bloody hijacker!

    Are you really serious when you propose to dismiss your whole conflicting quadra at once?

    "Hello I'm beta and I just thought that... hm... deltas are useless.. so let's remove them from the equation!"

    lol
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

  8. #8
    Bananas are good. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Hey it's not my fault that they are.

    And, hijacker? I was completely on topic.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

  9. #9
    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Well, society at large is largely Delta (and Gamma SF) regardless of what's going on around it, and I've conversely never seen a society ruled by Deltas, so there's that flaw to your model. It otherwise looks pretty good though. I'd shape it as follows:
    Well I'm not saying delta is a ruler, more so than an ethos, a subculture which effectively "rules" because it presents stability to a society that doesn't exist otherwise. The Si of delta allows a slow kind of conservative stability to society.

    In america I tend to think delta/gamma are more conservative, but gamma conservatives are the "I don't need the government controlling my life and money" corporate conservatives, and the deltas are the "America needs to return to its idyllic nation of farmers conservative ideals" moral conservatives.
    Last edited by male; 12-15-2010 at 12:05 AM.

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    Inception Mastermind KeroZen's Avatar
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    It's fun because I don't have the same stereotypes about USA as a French citizen...

    If I look at the dirty south hillbillies dragster and nascar fans I see a stereotype, if I look at the LA gangsters I see another, in the numerous Marines and other soldier-oriented cultures I see others, the average New Yorker a completely different one...

    So what USA stereotype is the real american integral type? The kind of humor on break.com or collegehumor.com? The one in "friends" or "how I met your mother?" or more the one in "desperate housewives"?... the yankee spirit? people having flags in front of their house?

    See everyone can see what he/she wants to see. I could do the same for my own country btw, the average Parisian has nothing to do with the average country side peon, but they're equally numerous...
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

  11. #11
    Inception Mastermind KeroZen's Avatar
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    Damn Aleksei I saw you remove that post!
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

  12. #12
    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    It's fun because I don't have the same stereotypes about USA as a French citizen...
    Lol and what are those?

    By the way, I don't really have a problem personally with stereotypes, overall they characterize cultures fairly well as long as people remember that individuals and subgroups within cultures don't always follow the stereotypes of the culture they belong to. There are always exceptions to the rules when it comes to stereotypes. Also generally its better to use positive stereotypes than negative ones. While certain negative stereotypes may be true to some extent, this offends people because they immediately assume its a personal attack statement against them and their country.

    But me, I really don't fucking care the least bit, what I fear isn't stereotypes but a completely beige world in which their is no social distinction or differences that can be articulated. We are all merely human #259262 in order that no one gets offended.

    Most of the anti-stereotyping stuff comes from the destructive kind of stereotyping that is done to minorities and such "all muslims are terrorists, don't trust them, they hate america and a militant fundamentalists".... "jews want to steal my money".... "black people want to rape my daughter, they are like savages".... etc etc...... most of the time its people's insecurities being focused on a single group that functions as a scapegoat (kind of like betas were a while ago on this forum) and playing their group up to be pure and noble and completely undyingly virtuous.

    That's worlds apart from giving an honest opinion or impression on cultural differences, with tact not to offend other people, and the clarity to realize not everyone in a given culture conforms to stereotypes.

    Anyways yea this doesn't have to do with the topic but whatever, I felt like posting it.

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    Bananas are good. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    Damn Aleksei I saw you remove that post!
    Yeah, I thought it was probably wrong, and I was rethinking it. :wink:

    What I'm thinking is that the US is indeed annoyingly Delta (varies by region, but overall it's an LSE-Te nation), but it's still ruled by Gammas.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    How is this a new model?

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    HaveLucidDreamz: if you could produce some flash animation of your cogwheels stuff in action that would be surely more thought provoking!

    But yes it's clear there are many "cyclic paths" in parallel, as at any time you can find ideas in their various realization phases...and all quadras keep existing at all times...
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

  16. #16
    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    How is this a new model?
    Quadra progression focuses on a sequential representation of a single quadra at a time in society.

    The new model assumes society is partitioned into four quadras which individually progress through time and progress influenced by each other also

    The first model is like a 1dimensional partial differential equation in space and time

    The second model is like a 4dimensional partial differential equation in space and time

    As time moves forward in the first model, the 1dimension of which quadra is represented varies between four values [alpha, beta, gamma, delta]

    As time moves forward in the second model, the 4dimesions, being each quadra undergos change in a more abstract sense changing the nature of that quadra's role in society as a whole. Each quadra also undergoes changes from the other dimensions. Lets say [alpha, beta, gamma, delta] = [x,y,z,h] the four dimensions. Then

    x(y,h,t)
    y(x,z,t)
    z(y,h,t)
    h(z,x,t)

    Where in the previous model

    x(t) where the x:{alpha, beta, gamma, delta}

    Does that make sense?

  17. #17
    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    HaveLucidDreamz: if you could produce some flash animation of your cogwheels stuff in action that would be surely more thought provoking!

    But yes it's clear there are many "cyclic paths" in parallel, as at any time you can find ideas in their various realization phases...and all quadras keep existing at all times...
    Yea thats a good idea actually

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    Aleksei you bloody hijacker!

    Are you really serious when you propose to dismiss your whole conflicting quadra at once?

    "Hello I'm beta and I just thought that... hm... deltas are useless.. so let's remove them from the equation!"

    lol
    rofl. i'm late to this party but ty. that was funny...

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    quadra values ebb and flow over time. the quadra values of alpha will dominate for awhile and then sublimate and morph into the rise of beta values and so on. there's always all information aspects floating about but society is cyclical about what information aspects are dominant and at what times.

    like you could think about what is it like for an alpha individual to exist in a society where gamma values are dominant?

    the answer lies in the idea that things are changing all the time, and each quadra (and individual) gets a chance to see their quadra values come to the forefront at some point in their lifetime. and, further, we can always find quadra pockets in society no matter what the publically dominant quadra is at any particular time.

    it's the rings of supervision and benefit that allow for across-quadra collaboration in terms of work production. the relations of semi duality and illusionary allow for greatest understanding of neighboring quadras. and the clubs allow for holistic societal progress with respect to club interest areas.

    so there's all this stuff going on at once. the rise and fall of quadra values, the progress of the society and how that happens dynamically across quadras, the niches and pockets of quadra values we can each call home, and the clubs that offer a synthesis of thinking styles.

    having said all this, what are the dominant quadra values at this point in time? what quadra phase are we in?

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

  20. #20
    Samuel the Gabriel H. MisterNi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    How is this a new model?
    It's not a new model...it's a parrot of Expats explanation on quadra progression and how progression can reverse itself. I believe he used the rise and fall of the Roman empire as an example.

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