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Thread: IEEs and Ti PoLR (ENFp)

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    Default IEEs and Ti PoLR (ENFp)

    Heres the situation: I am an ENFp so I have a poor structural logic but I am going to graduate soon from technical university to become an electrical engineer. It seems a little bit weird considering that this occupation mainly depends on the same structural logic that I am lacking. How is it possible anyway? I believe that when I was a child my was hurt in school as I was using my and being said that I am too young and don't know anything. This is a great offence on a so maybe I stepped back and started to develop it. Still, I have had great problems with math. What do you think about it?

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    Say, andris, if you are latvian like I presume form your name, them why don't you read all the stuff in Russian? Or your language is not so similar to our east neighbours? Any way you can't develope much of your Vulnerable Function so you might be in a deep ... in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaido21
    Say, andris, if you are latvian like I presume form your name, them why don't you read all the stuff in Russian? Or your language is not so similar to our east neighbours? Any way you can't develope much of your Vulnerable Function so you might be in a deep ... in the end.
    Names can sometimes deceive, I am estonian - no relations to latvia at all - and my russian is sadly very poor. But this vulneradle function thing - yes I have thought about it and I am sure that I am never going to work as an engineer but in some other position in the same field - it can never hurt to know little about everything :wink:
    ENFP +2GMT

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    Welcome on board , fellow Estonian. :wink: I don't know how to help you out , but I do know that working in a profession what needs using your Vulnearable Function is very bad for your health. Being ENFp you should know how it felt to be at school, what is the institution of . So your job might make you feel the same.

    Have you read the materials by Boriss Pushkin?

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    yes, I have read all the materials in estonian from Boris Pushkin (or at least all that I have found from the web).
    A year ago I didn't even know anything about vulnerable functions and things like that, I am trying to consider these things from now.
    ENFP +2GMT

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    So what are your plans after you graduate? I guess that you will not be working as electrical engineer so you need another job. I suggest councelling others because as we all know ENFps are in their creative element when good
    support is needed.

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    i'm not sure yet but there's a lot of possibilities out there :wink:
    ENFP +2GMT

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    if you want to be an engineer do it! just some advice from an American but yeah it WILL be difficult

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    andris, I too have met succesful and highly intelligent ENFP engineering students, even one ESFP - and as you may have read I already typed Linus Torvalds, the man who wrote the Kernel of the operating system Linux, as an ENFP - I should get round to writing a bit more about him soon... But remember that socionics, like all psychological theories, is just a rough approximation of reality. Do what comes naturally, not what the Model A tells you - and there are indeed many jobs in technical fields that demand much more people skills than pure technical compentence.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
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    Default Re: ENFp and structural logic

    Quote Originally Posted by andris
    Heres the situation: I am an ENFp so I have a poor structural logic but I am going to graduate soon from technical university to become an electrical engineer. It seems a little bit weird considering that this occupation mainly depends on the same structural logic that I am lacking. How is it possible anyway?

    Having weak thinking doesnt mean you have weak intelligence: strength of a function is not aptitude. Having a weak function means that you dont trust in the information coming from that function. It means you aerent confident about it, it doesnt mean you aerent potentially good at it.

    Dont listen to Kaido. If you want to be an electrical engineer go ahead, after Four(?) years of tech school you should have the experience within technical fields to know if this is what you want or not. Of course you know that technical fields require alot of ST, and since your ST is weak you are more sensitive to criticism in this area than most others. But I say go for it if this is what you want. Dont limit yourself to the careers that the model A seem to point to, do what you do naturally. Thats what have to think about when choosing a career. What you do naturally, and this does always reflect the stereotypical career of your type.

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    I don't know why, but when I sayd andris to be in a bad situation it seemed to me he was being in a worry. That made me to be little bit bulling. But you can work in a profession, what you like and that is the most important. And theory is usually and the practice might not actually even be thing.
    And there are lots of different things related to your profession and some of them not be even connected to so you likely have many options where to realize your self being at this profession.

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    Default How do you know if you've hit an ENFp's PoLR?

    How do you know if you've hit an ENFp's PoLR?

    Because in science class today, I was in a lab group with an ENFp male and a guy of some other unknown type. Well the ENFp said something like, "We need to go get a scale," or something like that. He just sat there. So I'm like, "Yeah, then go get one," and he's like "Like, OMG, you're so mean to me." (he said it in sort of a whiny voice). He wouldn't really talk to me all that much for the rest of the class...

    What happened here?
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    I agree, that doesn't sound like a POLR hit.

    Where I work there is an ENFp salesman, and he clearly gets uncomfortable (to the point of leaving the room) if a technical person (usually an ISTj engineer, of course) makes a point of clearly contradicting, or even correcting, a statement on technical issues that the ENFp just made - even if ithe engineer said it politely and calmly. The ENFp gets defensive "I'm not a technical person, you know that". So it's not even a question of calling him stupid or even meaning it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Hmm, I think I may have used some kind of Ti on him without realizing it. lalalalala
    , Se-sub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve
    He's gay!
    Haha, I'm pretty positive that he's straight, but he acts very homosexual like 95% of the time.
    , Se-sub
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    Hmm, I think I may have used some kind of Ti on him without realizing it. lalalalala

    LOL!

    "If you werent so blunt I was just going to tell you something."

    Try this if you want to kill an ENFp I think it should have a fatality effect

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    maybe he just didn't like being bossed around? Se?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    maybe he just didn't like being bossed around? Se?
    That may be it. I hate it when people boss me around. Infact I hate it even more than them correcting me on an obvious mistake. You can compound it by correcting me in front of others and then barking an order at me. This of course will not produce the results you are expecting unless the results you are expecting is to make me your enemy bent on destroying everything you have worked for I dont know if that was this kids problem though.
    As far as someone pointing out errors though sometimes I grateful that someone caught something I overlooked in my absentmindedness. I love it when someone knowlegeable takes time to show me how to do something without being critical of me When it comes to personal attacks about my competence, I find it very unkind and unproductive I am always aware of the persons credentials for saying something. You can say all you like but if I think you are a moron I will not be too affected by what you say.
    Once I remember I was working with a carpenter and his son became jealous of my friendship with his father. He saw me hammering and he reached over and snatched the hammer out of my hand and sort of pushed me aside "Gimmie that, you dont know what youre doing!"! Lord help me! Im glad his father was there cause I was about to open up a can of...
    Anyway, the point is if you must correct an enfp be tactful and if possible do it in private. Actually this should apply to anyone, not just enfps. :wink:

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    maybe he just didn't like being bossed around? Se?
    That may be it. I hate it when people boss me around. Infact I hate it even more than them correcting me on an obvious mistake. You can compound it by correcting me in front of others and then barking an order at me. This of course will not produce the results you are expecting unless the results you are expecting is to make me your enemy bent on destroying everything you have worked for I dont know if that was this kids problem though.
    As far as someone pointing out errors though sometimes I grateful that someone caught something I overlooked in my absentmindedness. I love it when someone knowlegeable takes time to show me how to do something without being critical of me When it comes to personal attacks about my competence, I find it very unkind and unproductive I am always aware of the persons credentials for saying something. You can say all you like but if I think you are a moron I will not be too affected by what you say.
    Once I remember I was working with a carpenter and his son became jealous of my friendship with his father. He saw me hammering and he reached over and snatched the hammer out of my hand and sort of pushed me aside "Gimmie that, you dont know what youre doing!"! Lord help me! Im glad his father was there cause I was about to open up a can of...
    Anyway, the point is if you must correct an enfp be tactful and if possible do it in private. Actually this should apply to anyone, not just enfps. :wink:

    True. Very true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    maybe he just didn't like being bossed around? Se?
    Either do ESFps and every type (except INFps :wink: ), and ESFps have lots of Se.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    but they don't act all hurt they fight back "stop bossing me around" or whatever, no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    but they don't act all hurt they fight back "stop bossing me around" or whatever, no?
    ESFps, or at least the ones I know, will absolutely push back. As weird as it may sound, ESFps, or at least the ones I know, actually can be very good crisis managers. Maybe it’s their experience in dealing with self-created crises.

    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul
    ESFps, or at least the ones I know, will absolutely push back. As weird as it may sound, ESFps, or at least the ones I know, actually can be very good crisis managers. Maybe it’s their experience in dealing with self-created crises.

    Paul
    I'm not sure how to explain this, but in my experience with ESFps - and also those historical figures I think were ESFps - they are rotten strategists, but excellent tacticians. So yes, they tend to be poor in avoiding crises, but good in managing them.

    Perhaps as a base function is enough to make a good crisis manager - the same applies to ESTps.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I guess maybe he felt humilated by the tone and way you said it. I don't think anyone likes someone else to make them feel stupid and illogical, especially in front of other people. When he said we need to get a scale maybe he was really saying or asking someone else to get a scale . Maybe its his fault for not being clear but i guess he assumed everyone understood what he meant. As a person i tend to have strong negative emotions towards a person if i feel they were unkind or rude to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve
    You'd really need to ask him when he finally starts speaking to you again. Also, are you sure you've typed him correctly?
    Yeah, I'm absolutely positive of his type. He's one of those flamboyant flaming ENFps.

    Well besides, I was never really that great friends with him anyways, so I guess I'll just see what happens, and hopefully talk to him if we both make the swim team.
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    Flamboyant flaming?

    LOL
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Yeah, most ENFps I know are much more toned down than him.
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    Default The mental muddle: Ti PoLR in ENFps

    I'm wondering what exactly our (or lack of) is like. I've edited the garbled Stratyevskaya translation in order to find out more. For general edification or bemusement, here it is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratyevskaya
    IEEs lose interest in any object as soon as their curiousity is satisfied at least superficially. It is impossible to deepen their interest further: in the IEEs' opinion, they've already spent enough time on that subject and it's not necessary to study it any more, especially because there are so many new, unknown things out there. (IEEs fear to miss new possibilities. Therefore they avoid "getting stuck" on something that is, for them, already history.) The only method to hold the IEEs' interest is to "preheat" their curiosity: to fire their imagination, intrigue them, encourage them... in a word, "hook" them. (This is why the SLI is the IEE's dual.)

    IEEs are very inconsistent in their behaviour and reasonings. They don't think that this is a weakness. For them, it's convenient to be inconsistent. Nevertheless, they still find it inconvenient when others act inconsistently.

    IEEs sometimes cannot focus their attention; instead, their attention is scattered over several objects. When listening to explanations, IEEs easily grasp the general (often only superficial) meaning. Sometimes they have an insurmountable interest in the analysis of unimportant details. The IEE nevertheless has the impression that these details are super-significant and that it's necessary to understand them in order to understand the essence (or the core truth) of a particular subject. That makes the IEE request explanations and ask belated or inappropriate questions, persistently asking that they be answered. The very act of asking the question can be so absurd that [the rest of this sentence is unclear, perhaps: "that people don't know how to react to it", or: "that even when the IEE is given an explanation, he doesn't know what to do with it".]

    Intuitively understanding the meaning of many logical concepts and categories, IEEs frequently have a sufficient, if superficial, understanding of a subject. That can get them into trouble, since they are capable of making authoritative statements that are nevertheless clearly absurd. The earnest and "nontrivial" nature of IEEs can baffle even the most experienced and qualified instructor, especially since IEEs are apt to start a debate even at the most inappropriate of moments.

    IEEs frequently have difficulty explaining elementary concepts. [NOTE: could also mean "...difficulty understanding explanations of...", but I don't think it does.] They find it even harder to explain complex phenomena by simple means. (Example: an IEE explains thunder and lightning to a four year old child: "Here's a cloud with a plus sign, and another cloud with a minus sign... they collide... and that causes thunder and lightning.") Sometimes IEEs begin their explanation too thoroughly and in too much detail, then lose interest and make their explanation more general than before. Frequently, IEEs lose track of their own explanation, get kind of tangled up, become nervous and are offended by their [dumny = "thoughtful"?] audience.

    IEEs nevertheless love "to explain everything". After a difficult situation, for example, they'll often say: "I'll tell you how it happened." And they begin a clear [or: thorough, or: orderly] explanation. "Clear", that means: as seen from a certain distance. First the IEE will offer a detailled description of some unimportant and insignificant circumstances ("the niece of the husband of my cousin's colleague..."). Then these insignificant circumstances are given an "intuitive" interpretation ("...who is in every way an unfortunate wretch..."). Any attempt to bring the IEE to the point is usually futile: it only irritates them and makes them nervous, and they'll ask you to let them explain things properly. Then they'll start all over again from the beginning.

    It is always interesting to listen to an IEE explaining the location of an object. They'll usually describes the arrangement and relative orientation of all nearest objects: "To the right you'll see a shoe store, about a hundred meters away, but don't go there, turn to the left..." IEEs can draw maps, but they'll be too detailled intricate.

    They fear to get into a mental muddle, but that precisely is what happens a lot. And they are confused in precisely those things they seem to understand and memorize most easily.

    IEEs are hurt when they are told they are illogical and inconsistent. They are offended when someone criticizes their mental abilities. Many of them love working in the intellectual field. They are fascinated by philosophy and [unclear, perhaps: think about abstract subjects]. Frequently they voice their opinion in the form of sayings. Some IEEs love to write their sayings down so they can quote them and have them published. They like to voice their thoughts in the most significant-sounding way: "If a woman wants to seem interesting, she must be unpredictable and incomprehensible." IEEs love to make an impression with their statements, and their usually self-confident tone helps them achieve this effect. They often give an exaggerated (and false) sense of significance even to statements whose meaning is absolutely trivial and primitive: "In the life of each woman there is something she cannot tell to anyone."

    This false significance is present not only in the intonation, but also in the facial expression - in a "promising" glance or a "mysterious" smile. That manifests how "illogical" the emotions expressed by IEEs can be, because neither glance nor smile reflects or is in any way connected to the IEE's true intentions. IEEs are excellent observers and analyzers of emotions of others, but not of their own emotions. They can give representatives of the opposite sex very frank and [inviting?] looks without ever allowing themselves ["report in its behaviour"? Does anyone know what this could mean?] (Emotional Ethics are manifested subconsciously). Therefore it will come as a sincere and completely unexpected surprise to IEEs that anything in their behaviour has given cause for jealousy.

    Only SLIs, the IEEs duals, interpret the IEEs' behaviour correctly. SLIs interpret any intentional or "unexpected" hint of the IEEs precisely in the way those hints are meant. SLIs don't see anything illogical in the IEEs' behaviour, only a subtle and beautiful ethical game ["game": could also mean something like "shimmerings", "play", "song",...]. Even when IEEs with fascinating directness attempt to explain some piece of wisdom, SLIs are only moved [could this mean "...merely find it touching"?]. SLIs also inoffensively lessen and calm the confusion so typical of the IEEs' descriptions or explanations. SLIs understand very well that the logical aspect of the IEEs' information is only a secondary, additional element. The main thing is the ethical aspect that underlies all this. Therefore SLIs understand the logical confusion of IEEs as an expression of their ethical game ["game": see above].

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    This seems to be the mental condition of those who recieve much mental stimulation without time to process it. Eg. Soldiers in wartime. Thoughts?

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    This description cracks me up I love this part
    IEEs nevertheless love "to explain everything". After a difficult situation, for example, they'll often say: "I'll tell you how it happened." And they begin a clear [or: thorough, or: orderly] explanation. "Clear", that means: as seen from a certain distance. First the IEE will offer a detailled description of some unimportant and insignificant circumstances ("the niece of the husband of my cousin's colleague..."). Then these insignificant circumstances are given an "intuitive" interpretation ("...who is in every way an unfortunate wretch..."). Any attempt to bring the IEE to the point is usually futile: it only irritates them and makes them nervous, and they'll ask you to let them explain things properly. Then they'll start all over again from the beginning.
    I dont this sometimes if I dont want to make the story boring. I spice it up with funny details.
    I dont think ENFPs are as bad as this guy describes them but I can identify with much of what is said here. I find it rather amuzing.
    I know I get impatient with detailed instructions esp. if Im not going to use them immediately. Some people like to tell you all the boring details that you just know you will forget in five seconds. I perfer a overall view of a project or assignment and then to fill in the details as I go along. Having a good understanding of the goal will help me in assessing what needs to be included and what can be left out.
    Anyway I found Stratyevskaya's description sassy and fun.
    [/quote]

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    Default Re: The mental muddle (Ti PoLR in ENFPs)

    Quote Originally Posted by maizemedley
    THANK YOU! I just had a realization! I TEND to SEE the ENFp THAT way. For some reason my attention is drawn to their weak Ti! It can become unpleasant for my sister to debate with me when I keep bringing her attention to the details she didn't focus on. Talking about POLITICS and RELIGION are no no's.

    When I think about my sister... I TOTALLY see the description above. THAT weakness/aspect of her is what stands out to me. In the past when she's tried to make me see things her way, I'd shut her off because I knew she wasn't considering the things I was considering. But of course with age/time you realize that the other person is seeing things you DON'T, so it's about figuring out are credible ideas and what is BS. So, yeah, we now offer each other a TRUE open-mind. It's just crazy how I tended to focus on my sisters weak Ti and because of that, tended to ignore everything she said. She probably focuses on my weak Te and ignored everything I said. I speak to her in fantasy talk and that makes her go....erm?

    I'm sure the Ne/Ni difference caused some friction too...BUT I kinda enjoyed her take on things...except when her take got "fuzzy."

    Plus having ISTj/ESTp brothers ganging up on her and then running their mouths about how they pwned the debate...made me partial.
    Geez, poor sister!!
    In this case, I'm sure the constant presence of all these types would make her try to focus even more on the weak .

    Note that the description at top was written by an ESI (Stratievskaya).

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    Default Re: The mental muddle (Ti PoLR in ENFPs)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Geez, poor sister!!
    Yes, poor girl! Urk. If I try to imagine what she felt like I feel like I have to go and punch something repeatedly. God, I can so sympathize. I hope her new guy turns out to be an ISTp. She'd so deserve it.

    Quote Originally Posted by maizemedley
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Note that the description at top was written by an ESI (Stratievskaya).
    That is good to note...
    I'll say. I'm editing her description of ENFPs' , thinking that would give me something to feel complacent about after all this POLR business... but noooo... I'll post it when it's finished, because I really want to know what you all think about it.

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    I'm wondering if our lack of could simply be part and parcel of our strong . Perhaps you can't do both at the same time. It's either or. is about fuzzy logic, the big picture, patterns, connections... It's about immersing oneself in a situation deeply enough to catch the possible meanings, the hidden possibilities, all that stuff. So it's really about perceiving things. Once you categorize them or try to discover the logical connections, you're already limiting your perceptive powers.

    Perhaps our lack of actually strengthens our perceptive powers? Does it make us more open to the possibility that you can't really categorize the world, that there aren't any logical connections or explanations between things? ... at least no connections/explanations you can easily discover...

    What I'm sure of is that weak makes it easier to empathize with people, to see the world through their eyes. You're able to think like someone else and you'll see that their point of view has some justification, that they've got their own inner logic even if it's different from yours.So, advantages/disadvantages:
    • ++ able to see differing patterns/meanings. Not limited by preconceived inner categories. Perception doesn't have to fit into a certain logical prefabricated structure. Therefore actually perceives more thoroughly and fully (and accurately?).
      -- actually perceives thoroughly and fully without limiting itself by fitting those perceptions into a certain logical prefabricated structure. So first you get THIS perception, very thoroughly. Then THAT, just as thoroughly. Unfortunately, THIS and THAT seem contradictory. Which leads others to think you're sprouting total BS. You're simply talking about stuff you've seen, though, focussing more on this perception than on any logical structure. It's like the story of the three blind men describing an elephant they've touched: every perception contradicts the next, but at the end it's the same elephant.

    Gah, I can't explain that stuff very clearly. (Read Stratyevskaya and you'll see why. ) Tell me, do you think this is at all plausible?

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    You don't seem to have a lacking Ti to me, Schroedinger Cat.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Creepy-pokeball

    Default Re: The mental muddle (Ti PoLR in ENFPs)

    Quote Originally Posted by maizemedley
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by maizemedley
    THANK YOU! I just had a realization! I TEND to SEE the ENFp THAT way. For some reason my attention is drawn to their weak Ti! It can become unpleasant for my sister to debate with me when I keep bringing her attention to the details she didn't focus on. Talking about POLITICS and RELIGION are no no's.

    When I think about my sister... I TOTALLY see the description above. THAT weakness/aspect of her is what stands out to me. In the past when she's tried to make me see things her way, I'd shut her off because I knew she wasn't considering the things I was considering.
    hmmm. Now I see what you were saying *ahem* when you thought I could be ENFp because it was "like arguing with your sister." A-HA! Didn't think I'd figure you out, huh? Well, no worries :wink:
    Yeah, you caught me. That's what it felt like when you busted in with your viewpoint...that one time...on that one thread regarding my polr free utopia!. lol <3 Diana!
    Diana rocks, eh? but she knows that.

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    @FDG: Thank you. It might just be something that looks like Ti, though. I'd say it's possible to swerve around one's worst POLR potholes by using other functions. Examples:

    Weak Ti
    • --> getting bored easily
      ENFP has a family who loves traditions and rituals. Even though he's bored he'll still do his best to take part without spoiling their fun. This isn't because his Ti is suddenly stronger, but because his NeFi are strong and tell him "it's not what you like, but your family likes it and needs it, and you love them, so..."

      --> avoiding routine tasks
      ENFP hates housework, homework, chores... but knows that the consequences of avoiding this will be dire (strong Ni, see? ). Tries to motivate himself using his knowledge of his own psyche: he knows what motivates him, and how the work needs to be structured so he'll achieve his best results with as much fun and as little effort as possible.

    With ENTJs, perhaps your strong Te (f.expl.) lets you avoid the worst weak-Se-mistakes simply because you're good at observing cause and effect. Or ESTPs with their Fi POLR: they've got this hidden desire to be loved, and a very good ability to observe the actual real world outside, so wouldn't they slowly start to notice how their Fi-lessness affects others and what they've got to do to avoid this?

    Mind you, I'm not saying that it would be quick or effortless. Avoiding one's POLR mistakes would probably come as a conscious effort, and perhaps you'd feel that in an ideal world you wouldn't have to do this kind of crap. (Like INTJs feeling annoyed at having bodies that need food.)

    ENFPs and weak Ti... yeah, Stratyevskaya has a point... but I'd say any ENFP would be quick to see how other people react to their absurdities. It sounds as if we're good at picking up that kind of vibe. It also seems that we value harmony, try to please rather than offend people, and hate making a total fool of ourselves. All this would let me think that ENFPs in general would quickly try to strengthen their POLR, or (more likely) to bluff their way through Ti.

    Or I might just be an INFj, of course. Or something else altogether.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
    Or I might just be an INFj, of course. Or something else altogether.
    You're German, thus ISTj.

    And, there shall be no discussion about this diagnosis

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    Quote Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
    @FDG: Thank you. It might just be something that looks like Ti, though. I'd say it's possible to swerve around one's worst POLR potholes by using other functions. Examples:

    Weak Ti
    • --> getting bored easily
      ENFP has a family who loves traditions and rituals. Even though he's bored he'll still do his best to take part without spoiling their fun. This isn't because his Ti is suddenly stronger, but because his NeFi are strong and tell him "it's not what you like, but your family likes it and needs it, and you love them, so..."

      --> avoiding routine tasks
      ENFP hates housework, homework, chores... but knows that the consequences of avoiding this will be dire (strong Ni, see? ). Tries to motivate himself using his knowledge of his own psyche: he knows what motivates him, and how the work needs to be structured so he'll achieve his best results with as much fun and as little effort as possible.

    With ENTJs, perhaps your strong Te (f.expl.) lets you avoid the worst weak-Se-mistakes simply because you're good at observing cause and effect. Or ESTPs with their Fi POLR: they've got this hidden desire to be loved, and a very good ability to observe the actual real world outside, so wouldn't they slowly start to notice how their Fi-lessness affects others and what they've got to do to avoid this?

    Mind you, I'm not saying that it would be quick or effortless. Avoiding one's POLR mistakes would probably come as a conscious effort, and perhaps you'd feel that in an ideal world you wouldn't have to do this kind of crap. (Like INTJs feeling annoyed at having bodies that need food.)

    ENFPs and weak Ti... yeah, Stratyevskaya has a point... but I'd say any ENFP would be quick to see how other people react to their absurdities. It sounds as if we're good at picking up that kind of vibe. It also seems that we value harmony, try to please rather than offend people, and hate making a total fool of ourselves. All this would let me think that ENFPs in general would quickly try to strengthen their POLR, or (more likely) to bluff their way through Ti.

    Or I might just be an INFj, of course. Or something else altogether.
    Nope, you're totally ENFp imho!

    Btw, I have met 2 ENFp girlz that had a rather evident Ti polr. They're usually the whore type, and I always think they're ESFp at first, then I change my mind when they start to speak about some random theory that makes no sense whatsoever coming from their mouth. So, I guess it's a matter of self-awareness.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Cat,

    I totally agree with the elephant metaphor, in fact, the elephant metaphor is one which I constantly use in my attempts to "explain".

    I think many people don't realize that it's not like we are trying to actually explain something, but more of describing it, describing what we see. We know that description A (ear) has some connection to description B (tail) and also something to do with description C (trunk). We can see it, we can taste it, but we can't state it....at the moment, we aren't sure that it's an elephant we are seeing...especially if one has never even seen an elephant. I mean, how do you describe an elephant if you've only gotten a vague impression of it...and trying to describe it to someone who may have never experienced one????

    Worse though, is that as we are trying to describe the elephant, many people (types) expect us to use perfect language...the first attempt. Somehow, we are expected to know which aspect of their language will trigger the proper imagery in their mind so that they can get a clue as to what we are describing...and hopefully add in a description of their own to help round it out (foot). If we use the wrong language, we are immediately dismissed or attacked for being illogical/incoherent. Some types even end the conversation right there, or call us a liar because some word we used held a different meaning for them than the concept to which we were referring to. (Obviously I have issues with people who don't attempt to read/listen for meaning!!)


    I also agree with the attempts to avoiding PoLR mistakes being a conscious effort. I have to say though, that not every ENFp has felt that need. I think that this fits in well with Expats(?) description of ENFp in the Te description thread of ENFp's overestimating their own abilities. But then, not many people (of any type) will willingly acknowledge/look at potential personal faults, (beyond excuses they utilize for obviously inappropriate behavior).


    Cat, I always love reading your posts, both serious and playful. Keep it up!!
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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