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Thread: Frustration at the Lack of Socionics Research

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    Default Frustration at the Lack of Socionics Research

    Is anyone else frustrated at the lack of scientific research into Socionics? Perhaps I am checking the wrong sites. I have read all the usual sources (socionics.com, wikisocion, socionics.us etc etc) but I feel there is a severe lack of scientific research in this area. Google Scholar doesn't help much and I checked some of the big journal publishers such as Emerald but can't find much.

    Should I be looking elsewhere or is Socionics not really being taking seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IEI View Post
    Is anyone else frustrated at the lack of scientific research into Socionics? Perhaps I am checking the wrong sites. I have read all the usual sources (socionics.com, wikisocion, socionics.us etc etc) but I feel there is a severe lack of scientific research in this area. Google Scholar doesn't help much and I checked some of the big journal publishers such as Emerald but can't find much.

    Should I be looking elsewhere or is Socionics not really being taking seriously?
    I think (but do not know for sure) that the russians have done much research. But you'll probably end up some unreadable website for that stuff.

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    Creepy-Korpsey
    Last edited by Korpsey; 12-05-2010 at 12:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IEI View Post
    Is anyone else frustrated at the lack of scientific research into Socionics? Perhaps I am checking the wrong sites. I have read all the usual sources (socionics.com, wikisocion, socionics.us etc etc) but I feel there is a severe lack of scientific research in this area. Google Scholar doesn't help much and I checked some of the big journal publishers such as Emerald but can't find much.

    Should I be looking elsewhere or is Socionics not really being taking seriously?
    The problem isn't that socionics isn't being taken seriously. I mean, it's mostly individuals with free time in the US, but there are some Russians who do this for there job, legitimately.

    The problem is more in the fact that socionics is inherently hard to test for. It's concerned not even with discrete brain activity, but an overall pattern of functioning. How are you going to test for something as multifactorial as that? And then there's no surefire way to establish type---there's always going to be some degree of bias/subjectivity in how you decide who is what type, and that will result in compromised data. I mean, when somebody says "9 out of 10 SLEs are meatheads," the question is immediately "and how did you determine who is SLE or not? Could it be that you determined that anybody who is a meathead is SLE?" So yeah. The brain function aspect is so complex that we're probably not advanced enough to detect it, and then there's the inherent problem of determining type in the first place in a way that is unbiased and objective.

    Personally, I'm glad socionics is remaining in the realm of what could be called "speculative psychology," purely because in order to be scientific, socionics would have to be reified somewhat. Some of the ideas, terms, and concepts, would have to be given fixed or definitional meanings, reducing the options for interpretation and invention.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Personally, I'm glad socionics is remaining in the realm of what could be called "speculative psychology," purely because in order to be scientific, socionics would have to be reified somewhat. Some of the ideas, terms, and concepts, would have to be given fixed or definitional meanings, reducing the options for interpretation and invention.
    ya. i think it would take a lot of the fun out of it.

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IEI View Post
    Is anyone else frustrated at the lack of scientific research into Socionics? Perhaps I am checking the wrong sites. I have read all the usual sources (socionics.com, wikisocion, socionics.us etc etc) but I feel there is a severe lack of scientific research in this area. Google Scholar doesn't help much and I checked some of the big journal publishers such as Emerald but can't find much.

    Should I be looking elsewhere or is Socionics not really being taking seriously?
    Socionics is nowhere in the scientific literature, in English or Russian or Swahili. Socionics is pseudoscience.

    It is not taken seriously because it does not lend itself to falsification. It has nothing in the manner of empirical evidence, it makes no testable predictions, it relies on anecdotal evidence, and nearly everyone on this board suffers from some manifestation of confirmation bias.

    edit: lol 'bored'.
    Last edited by Capitalist Pig; 12-05-2010 at 02:35 PM.

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    That, and you have APD.

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CILi View Post
    Maybe he meant Auditory Processing Disorder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    Socionics is nowhere in the scientific literature, in English or Russian or Swahili. Socionics is pseudoscience.

    It is not taken seriously because it does not lend itself to falsification. It has nothing in the manner of empirical evidence, it makes no testable predictions, it relies on anecdotal evidence, and nearly everyone on this bored suffers from some manifestation of confirmation bias.
    It's still a fun and interesting model to work with. I don't pretend socionics to be anywere within the same realm of the hard sciences.
    The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.

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    ^what Iso said. It's not science. It's more philosophy. It's not a theory, merely a model.

    I don't think acknowledging what it isn't in any way compromises its usefulness, either in utilitarian terms of helping you deal with your relationships and choose your company more wisely, or in enjoyment terms, because it's a fascinating way of thinking about the world, and a great source of conversation.

    </alpha quadra>

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    There is a way of testing it, and that is through measuring the success of intertype relationships.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    There is a way of testing it, and that is through measuring the success of intertype relationships.
    But, how do you go about testing the types of the test subjects? How do you account for all variables that may be present within a relationship? The lack of controls is a big problem, and you still have to contend with confirmation bias.

    Show me how you can test the intertype relationships, with enough falsifiability to be labled as "scientific"
    The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.

    Chapter 14, Verse 9.
    The Bhagavad Gita

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    Well, you could it via consensus. With variables, you could either account for them in your research (for example by using categories) or you could just ignore extreme cases and otherwise you use the data set you have. It may not sound brilliant, but that's the way to attempt progress.

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    You would need:

    An assertion (your hypothesis)
    *this has to either be able to be proved to be false through observation, or
    *the conditions for it being false being within imagination--one could conceive of how they might observe a counter-example

    I think you're on the right track, perhaps. Quadras would be an excellent place to start.

    As it stands Socionics would have to be rebuilt if you wanted it to be scientific, salvaging the parts that are actually testable (such as quality of relationships).

    Just because something is abstract (like happiness or satisfaction), does not mean it cannot be measured.

    Anyway, please correct me if I've completely misunderstood science in this post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    You would need:

    An assertion (your hypothesis)
    *this has to either be able to be proved to be false through observation, or
    *the conditions for it being false being within imagination--one could conceive of how they might observe a counter-example.
    This is hard to do when we are dealing purely with the qualitative, beacuse the goal posts can always be moved so to speak.

    Just because something is abstract (like happiness or satisfaction), does not mean it cannot be measured.
    I agree, we can measure the abstract via our reactions to it. What we can't do, is quantify.

    Socionics is a fun model, but human interaction has so many variables that no single formular is going to take in to account everything. The world is just a tad more complex than that.
    The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.

    Chapter 14, Verse 9.
    The Bhagavad Gita

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    So you're saying it would be impossible to quantify comfort in a given close relationship?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    So you're saying it would be impossible to quantify comfort in a given close relationship?
    In an objective sense, yes. But we can qualify.

    I obviously would feel more comfort in an alpha heavy enviroment than a beta one, but my comfort level is still only a emotional subjective. How much comfort still depends on the people there, my surroundings, how well I know the people on a personal level, as well as the subject being discussed.

    I could not actually give a hard and fast number that would mean the same thing to everybody. If I said I felt 7/10 "points" of comfort, that is again still open for alot of interpretation, my seven could be your eight.

    We are dealing with something extremely abstract, not the hard and fast empirical.

    I am not a strict empiricist though. If I was, I would not even glance at socionics.
    The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.

    Chapter 14, Verse 9.
    The Bhagavad Gita

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    Thanks for the tips and links.

    Assuming Socionics is the real deal (and I think it is or I wouldn't be on this site), there must be a HUGE amount of untapped potential. Life is full of relationships. To be successful in love, work, family matters and day to day society it is key to be able to collaborate with other people. With Myers Briggs and other models it is possible to gain some insights however only Socionics (as far as I know) provides a way of predicting how people will interact in relationships.

    Perhaps my Ni is becoming over excited but surely it follows that if we can predict what's going to happen we can plan for the most successful outcome? I mean what's the point of telling people a hurricane is coming unless they take action and try to mimimize the damage. In a society where people are complaining about increased stress and unhappiness surely Socionics can help? Would you marry your conflictor?

    People say hindsight is 20/20 but that's the point! Socionics claims to give foresight. But to what extent? Is it a guarantee? How much weight should we put in Socionics? By pairing up customer's with a sales person from their quadra would I increase sales/ customer loyalty? Or is that taking it to the extreme? I think I would find it really hard to refuse my dual once the warm fuzzy feelings started to kick in.

    Much research has been done around team work and myers briggs, but where socionics is concenred I am finding I have a whole bunch of questions but very few answers.

    I am sure the problems around typing could be overcome. Similar challenges must have existed for research into the practical application of other models i.e. MBTI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    In an objective sense, yes. But we can qualify.

    I obviously would feel more comfort in an alpha heavy enviroment than a beta one, but my comfort level is still only a emotional subjective. How much comfort still depends on the people there, my surroundings, how well I know the people on a personal level, as well as the subject being discussed.

    I could not actually give a hard and fast number that would mean the same thing to everybody. If I said I felt 7/10 "points" of comfort, that is again still open for alot of interpretation, my seven could be your eight.

    We are dealing with something extremely abstract, not the hard and fast empirical.

    I am not a strict empiricist though. If I was, I would not even glance at socionics.
    Well, in economics, it's possible to quantify the enjoyment someone derives from consuming a product as its "utility". It's an abstract quantity but a quantity nonetheless.

    What I was thinking is that perhaps you could devise some hypothetical instrument to measure, across a broad sample, their comfort within inter-quadra relationships, and assign something akin to the idea of "utility" to it.

    Vaguely on the right track?

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    Much research has been done around team work and myers briggs, but where socionics is concenred I am finding I have a whole bunch of questions but very few answers.
    Socionics is also very obscure in the english speaking world, information unfortunately, is mostly limited to the internet.

    Hell, it's a funny story how I got involved, but that is a story for another thread. (My introduction to socionics story has World of warcraft in it )
    The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.

    Chapter 14, Verse 9.
    The Bhagavad Gita

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    What I was thinking is that perhaps you could devise some hypothetical instrument to measure, across a broad sample, their comfort within inter-quadra relationships, and assign something akin to the idea of "utility" to it.
    Intresting, I see another vent conversation when I start WoW again.
    The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.

    Chapter 14, Verse 9.
    The Bhagavad Gita

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    Intresting, I see another vent conversation when I start WoW again.
    I thought you'd never ask

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    IEI- UK IEI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    Hell, it's a funny story how I got involved, but that is a story for another thread. (My introduction to socionics story has World of warcraft in it )
    DO IT (pretending to be SLE)

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    Quote Originally Posted by IEI
    DO IT (pretending to be SLE)

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Lol
    methinks LSI

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    I see a lot of people complaining about:

    1) socionics sources scarcity
    2) wikisocion innacuracies

    It's clear we're only where we're at: meaning not very far... Our western community is small, but a lot is happening lately.

    Some books get translated, articles like the excellent information semantics study are very recent (2005-2006 iirc) our online sites are even more recent (wikisocion: 2007, socionics.ws: 2008 etc...)

    In my country there is a single horrible MBTI site looking like your grandma's homepage in the 90's... that's why I saw the chance to push socionics in France as it will be really easy to get more visibility than MBTI there (but French people are very skeptical anyways...)

    So instead of complaining, try to find Russian/Ukrainian speaking persons around you, even if they don't know socionics they might help us translate articles.

    If you feel you are confident enough, then create a wikisocion account and start contributing.

    In front of us is the Unknown, the big Void, the yet-to-be-discovered, it's exciting! No?
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    Ya'll should stop stressing about the lack of neurocognitive socionics research, and instead read my posting history from the very beginning.

    (or at least since 2007)

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    Socionics' next step, IMO, should be testing inter-type relations.

    Anecdotal evidence indicates that there's something to Socionics.

    With testing and refinement, what seems "pseudo" now, could help a lot of people someday.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    Socionics' next step, IMO, should be testing inter-type relations.

    Anecdotal evidence indicates that there's something to Socionics.

    With testing and refinement, what seems "pseudo" now, could help a lot of people someday.
    I don't know, I'm mixed about this. While I think it's stress reducing to know of potential problems beforehand, it really limits your will to interact with other people, moreso than what you would decide upon from empirical knowledge. It's kind of like" Woah, I knew I didn't get along with certain people, but you're saying I can only get along well with 4/16 types? Why even bother then?". Plus it's that unknown frontier that allows for new knowledge, wisdom and understanding from experimentation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    So instead of complaining, try to find Russian/Ukrainian speaking persons around you, even if they don't know socionics they might help us translate articles.
    WANTED

    Russian/ Ukrainian speaking friend with plethora of Socionic reasearch material. Must be able to read and write English and be willing to put up with constant complaining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    I don't know, I'm mixed about this. While I think it's stress reducing to know of potential problems beforehand, it really limits your will to interact with other people, moreso than what you would decide upon from empirical knowledge. It's kind of like" Woah, I knew I didn't get along with certain people, but you're saying I can only get along well with 4/16 types? Why even bother then?". Plus it's that unknown frontier that allows for new knowledge, wisdom and understanding from experimentation.
    Well, you'll only get along famously with a fourth of the people you meet, decently with half the people you meet, and not that great with another fourth of the people you meet.

    ...which, in my mind, is just business as usual, socially.
    4w5 sp/sx

    Please, direct all questioning of my self-typing to this thread. Thank you.

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