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Thread: Dual or conflict marriage? INFx?

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    Default Dual or conflict marriage? INFx?

    I am about to share some of my life story in the hope that someone here will be able to determine whether I am INFj or INFp & whether I am in a dual or conflict marriage .

    If I am in a dual marriage then I don't believe that is everything that some people hype it up to be - it's hard work - very hard at times . I have given everything to make mine work - but was it worth it ? I don't know.....I have a best friend, a lover, a partner, a father for my children but I was hurt. Severly hurt - I gave my all, went without and mostly just got a lot of " If you don't do this or that then you are not a good person' talking to.....Okay i may be exageratting a little as there have been amazing times as well.....but there was a lot of "You have to or else" & " that's wrong and this is right" all based on his opinion of right and wrong which was very flawed .

    I think that I am married to an ESTp . He is all about leadership, enjoying the latest "toys" & food. He has improved so much from how he was to what he is now but damage was done and it's not been an easy road to travel at times with him though I love him heaps.

    I type as an INFp & INFj . My good friend for many years was also an INFx. She was 10 or 11 years older than me and I kind of saw her as a big sister . I think she was INFj as she seems to very much fit the profiles but I seem more in the middle of the 2 types . I looked at photos of my friend and I today from years ago and we both look so bedraggled with the same terrible uncut hair though we both kept fringes . We both looked like we only wore rags and got by on nothing much .
    We both had the same doctor who treated everyone else wonderfully and said the most horrid things to the two of us individually and he didn't even know we were friends . I bring this up because it was so odd that he had the same reaction to us both .
    Differences between us are that she had more of a health focus with her food habits and dietary needs etc . Her husband was my husband's best friend though I never felt that I connected with her husband who was XSTj , one on one .
    Unfortunatly life did not go well for my friend who was diagnosed as the most clinically depressed person in the country - that means more depressed than any person in prison....well anyone known in the medical field . She has never fully recovered and is no longer married to her husband .

    My husband has always been good at things that I am not like dealing with telephone calls , organizing things to get done , doing the money , talking in front of groups , leading groups .
    I am better at understanding people , looking at the bigger picture - all the pieces of the puzzle , being a parent and all that that means ( he was not a hands on dad at all) .

    Well that's enough for now .

    Any thoughts ?

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    Specifically, what areas do you guys conflict in? How often and how long do the fights last?

    How does it feel when you guys work together? (Is is smooth sailing, or rough to get stuff done?)

    What about life goals and such? Its been mentioned that duality may not work when each person is going in separate paths/or have different goals.
    Last edited by peteronfireee; 12-01-2010 at 05:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peteronfireee View Post
    What areas do you guys conflict in? How often and how long do fights last ?

    How does it feel when you guys work together ? (Is is smooth sailing, or rough to get stuff done?)
    We never really have any conflict apart from the times when he wants to "force" me to do something which these days is very rare . An example make me go somewhere with him .

    We work together well though he always desires to do things his way of course and I have had to learn to verbalize myself if I have a differing view though really we come to agreement fast .

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    My first question to you is:

    Are these typings coming from MBTI tests? Are you converting them from MBTI?

    If so, I can't comment. You have to start from scratch in socionics and determine your socionic type as well as your husband's to be able to analyze the relationship socionically.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    My first question to you is:

    Are these typings coming from MBTI tests? Are you converting them from MBTI?

    If so, I can't comment. You have to start from scratch in socionics and determine your socionic type as well as your husband's to be able to analyze the relationship socionically.
    These are socionic typings .

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonShadow View Post
    I gave my all, went without and mostly just got a lot of " If you don't do this or that then you are not a good person' talking to.....Okay i may be exageratting a little as there have been amazing times as well.....but there was a lot of "You have to or else" & " that's wrong and this is right" all based on his opinion of right and wrong which was very flawed .
    Though I will say that you do sound like an Si-valuing person with Se-POLR, and you seem to be resenting your husband's Se-motivated behavior and lack of Si-value and lack of caregiving.

    An Si-valuing person with Se-POLR can be EII (socionics INFj) or LII (socionics INTj). However you could still have Se-role and feel like this--IEE (ENFp) or ILE (ENTp). I relate, definitely. (btw I test INFJ in MBTI and i'm ENFp in socionics, fwiw).
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonShadow View Post
    These are socionic typings .
    how did you come up with them? was it through a test on socionics.com?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Though I will say that you do sound like an Si-valuing person with Se-POLR, and you seem to be resenting your husband's Se-motivated behavior and lack of Si-value and lack of caregiving.

    An Si-valuing person with Se-POLR can be EII (socionics INFj) or LII (socionics INTj). However you could still have Se-role and feel like this--IEE (ENFp) or ILE (ENTp). I relate, definitely. (btw I test INFJ in MBTI and i'm ENFp in socionics, fwiw).
    Thankyou for your thoughts ..... and am glad someone can kind of relate to what i wrote .

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    how did you come up with them? was it through a test on socionics.com?
    Through many tests and readings on different sites .

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonShadow View Post
    Through many tests and readings on different sites .
    There is no good socionics test. It's much too complex. Just FYI. The test on Ganin's site actually approximates MBTI type.
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    ^ I think what happens is that people become brainwashed from MBTI.

    On the short test, I picked logic first. But that was because I was told in MBTI that I was dominant Ti. My logic is strong, but secondary, it is situational.

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    how on earth could one get diagnosed as the most clinically depressed person in the country? Unless you live in like Monaco or something.

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    hmmm, sure he's SLE? the ones I know don't try to force people to do stuff, nor do they project their own ways of doing things onto other people. Maybe it's just my experience or my perspective though.

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    Well if I had to choose between INFp/INFj I would choose INFj since you seem to feel uncomfortable at being pushed around, same explanation as what Workaholic mentioned.

    Have you talked to him about this issue? If yes, how did he respond?

    Dual's should theoretically work out small issues like this, but who knows.


    I'm guessing everything else is great though!
    Last edited by peteronfireee; 12-01-2010 at 08:08 AM.

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    I don't know what relationship type you have because nothing you've said here helps us determine the dynamics of the relationship. With duality, you get what you can't produce and you give what the other can't. For example, I am INFj/EII and I have a very hard time producing Te (keeping things orderly, organized, structured, and following certain routines, being productive, efficient); My dual does those things (like finding a place in the cupboard for all the cups, and having the towels folded a certain way so that they can fit in the drawer a certain way); in exchange for their strength, I give them feeling function, interpret their feelings so that they can learn to trust their feelings more and give a bond of relationship. These two functions in interplay produces a secure and reliable life; security is one thing that's very important to my dual pair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peteronfireee View Post
    Well if I had to choose between INFp/INFj I would choose INFj since you seem to feel uncomfortable at being pushed around, same explanation as what Workaholic mentioned.

    Have you talked to him about this issue? If yes, how did he respond?

    Dual's should theoretically work out small issues like this, but who knows.


    I'm guessing everything else is great though!
    I would try and verbalize my feelings but I don't think he realized how strongly I felt inside about certain things . He would just push forward with his desires and resort more and more to "telling me that to be a good person i should ....." etc .
    I have had to work on using my face and body language more to help him understand what I mean .
    Things have come a long way and now he is great ..... treats me like a princess .
    We have been able to overcome this one area of trouble . It just took time , lots of time .

    I love so much about him . Like his bouncy full on behaviour when happy , his being extroverted yet somewhat of a loner at the same time .

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    hmmm, sure he's SLE? the ones I know don't try to force people to do stuff, nor do they project their own ways of doing things onto other people. Maybe it's just my experience or my perspective though.
    Yes I am fairly certain that he is SLE and he rarely does this type of behaviour any more .

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    how on earth could one get diagnosed as the most clinically depressed person in the country? Unless you live in like Monaco or something.
    Yeah .... It's eye boggling to be given that title !

    Though if you knew of the situation you would understand .

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    EII

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I don't know what relationship type you have because nothing you've said here helps us determine the dynamics of the relationship. With duality, you get what you can't produce and you give what the other can't. For example, I am INFj/EII and I have a very hard time producing Te (keeping things orderly, organized, structured, and following certain routines, being productive, efficient); My dual does those things (like finding a place in the cupboard for all the cups, and having the towels folded a certain way so that they can fit in the drawer a certain way); in exchange for their strength, I give them feeling function, interpret their feelings so that they can learn to trust their feelings more and give a bond of relationship. These two functions in interplay produces a secure and reliable life; security is one thing that's very important to my dual pair.
    Well I have no problem keeping things orderly enough but I can have trouble with routines as I halt what I am doing for anyone .
    I am more than capable of folding towels to fit somewhere and finding places for things so I don't relate much to what you are saying .
    My SLE has only in recent years started to help around the home but even now it's mildly (I do exaggerate ) like "you need to mow the lawn , paint the deck , put up the Christmas tree , paint the bathroom" and so on . This is so he can relax on the weekends and not need to exert himself on the weekends .
    Also I am not too much into the security thing really ...... I take the occasional risk or two here and there with the help of my SLE .
    In fact we have taken many risks in his career that have all been worthy and changed home life circumstances when needed .
    Last edited by MoonShadow; 11-30-2010 at 07:29 AM.

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    If I am EII I do feel that I use very well and even . I can give and recieve emotional responses very well now and have visions and dreams often about future events . I often gaze off into my own little world for time out and to organize and think about things .

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonShadow View Post
    If I am EII I do feel that I use very well and even . I can give and recieve emotional responses very well now and have visions and dreams often about future events . I often gaze off into my own little world for time out and to organize and think about things .
    Both types are capable with dealing with emotional responses. The rest is vague to be honest. I have a feeling you are giving descriptions you have read, instead of pure reflection.

    EIIs have weak, accepting +. IEIs have weak, accepting +. The former, algorithmic logic+aesthetic order; the latter, volitional sensing+structural logic.

    To put it simply, in the case of EII, you accept proficiency, efficiency, and attention to aesthetic detail. In the case of IEI, you accept assertiveness and systematic order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post

    In the case of IEI, you accept assertiveness and systematic order.
    That is exactly what my SLE gives me - assertiveness and systematic order . I am not sure what I am weak in .

    Maybe if I tell you what my husband thinks I am strong in or what it is that I give him for he told me what only a week or so ago . It was that he trusts my intuition .

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    hmmm, sure he's SLE? the ones I know don't try to force people to do stuff, nor do they project their own ways of doing things onto other people. Maybe it's just my experience or my perspective though.
    Maybe I should clarify - he wouldn't for example take my suitcase full of clothes etc and put them in the car and say we are going to visit his parents for a week but he would kind of lock things in without making sure that I wanted to be part of his plans , then when he realizes that I haven't agreed he would still try and plod on with any plans and overlook me and any feelings that I had until I actually shed tears but even then the words would still come pouring out from him towards me of "If you were a good person etc you would do this" , "Don't make me have to choose sides" , "You are not a good christian" etc . This would always get to me and I always give in to him - every time .

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    I have a feeling you are giving descriptions you have read, instead of pure reflection.
    No those were descriptions from me . Maybe I could expand on this ......

    I have the gift of prophecy to a degree . I was asked to be a prophet in training for a church minister who travels around the country and overseas but everything about what this would mean goes against my beliefs . So I remain happier using my gift on a more intimate scale with family and friends and church leaders who I respect and trust .

    I smile often , infact my smile is the main way that I will interact with you unless I know you well ..... oh but then you will get even bigger smiles and laughter and pranks and a little bit of sillyness .

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    I think that you're more IEI than EII.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonShadow View Post
    Maybe I should clarify - he wouldn't for example take my suitcase full of clothes etc and put them in the car and say we are going to visit his parents for a week but he would kind of lock things in without making sure that I wanted to be part of his plans , then when he realizes that I haven't agreed he would still try and plod on with any plans and overlook me and any feelings that I had until I actually shed tears but even then the words would still come pouring out from him towards me of "If you were a good person etc you would do this" , "Don't make me have to choose sides" , "You are not a good christian" etc . This would always get to me and I always give in to him - every time .
    Um, wow. This isn't really type related, but it sounds like he's just using guilt trips to manipulate you. It could be that these kinds of subjective judgments, like being a "good" person or a "bad" person, is a Feeler thing, but I can't be too certain. All in all, it just sounds like he's using your religious belief to manipulate you.

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    If I am in a dual marriage then I don't believe that is everything that some people hype it up to be - it's hard work - very hard at times.
    I disagree. No relationship should take much effort because what's the point? Is anybody jumping through fire hoops changing for *me*. No of course not. So why the fuck would I do it for them? If somebody can't accept that I'm a lazy sob that likes to play video games too much, then they're not for me. In other words if they can't handle my vices, then they don't deserve my best qualities either. (like that quote in glam/starfall's sig i forget which one) People just have to accept people for the way that they are. =/

    NO matter how much you even love somebody, nobody changes for another person. They change because *they themselves* want to. And even if they're putting effort to be a better person for somebody else, their natural self will play out anyway over time. They'll get comfortable and they'll stop pretending. Have you ever done something for somebody else multiple times, and then even after you did all that, you realized they still didn't like you or wanted to be with you? It reminds me of that aimee mann song 'nothing is good enough for people like you, you always have to have somebody take the fall.'

    You have it backwards. Life is hard enough already getting through things by yourself. A relationship is something that releases resistance, that 'lets go of the oars' as esther would say, that makes you LIGHTEN THE FUCK UP and feel okay with being you.

    I have given everything to make mine work - but was it worth it ? I don't know.....I have a best friend, a lover, a partner, a father for my children but I was hurt.
    Well you have mixed messages from society. You have people telling you love is pain, and you have another group of people telling you that love is the relief from pain. It sort of sounds like you've been listening to everybody else but you, so I don't really know. What do you think? If you loved him then you loved him. But yeah that doesn't mean that a real relationship was the best thing. It's sad that it's like that but it just is. =( You probably thought "I love him so much, that means that we're meant to have a real relationship." But when you tried to do that in reality it just wasn't working, and so you felt split apart from yourself. You thought he would make you happy but he was just a chore.

    Severly hurt -
    I'm sorry. =(

    I gave my all, went without and mostly just got a lot of " If you don't do this or that then you are not a good person' talking to.....Okay i may be exageratting a little as there have been amazing times as well.....but there was a lot of "You have to or else" & " that's wrong and this is right" all based on his opinion of right and wrong which was very flawed.
    You're codependent. You need to love yourself first! People always get hurt in codependent relationships. You need to join a support group gaining self-confidence for yourself with other hurt women and gay men (with oprah as the leader, naturally) and stand on top of a mountain going 'hi-ya!'.... before you're ready to love another person.

    I think that I am married to an ESTp . He is all about leadership, enjoying the latest "toys" & food. He has improved so much from how he was to what he is now but damage was done and it's not been an easy road to travel at times with him though I love him heaps.
    You're not a fixer upper though. Your purpose in life isn't to be the shining holy grace that changes bad boys into good guys. Jeesh. Why does every women think they have this quality? I mean I'm not criticizing the relationship itself, and I kinda had the same issues but....idk

    I type as an INFp & INFj . My good friend for many years was also an INFx. She was 10 or 11 years older than me and I kind of saw her as a big sister.
    I'm glad you can actually like people still. Because I can't. I see through them too well. I tend to view all humans as whores that just want to get throat fucked. Like "I can see past the soul you think that you have, you just want sex and to be really bad."

    I think she was INFj as she seems to very much fit the profiles but I seem more in the middle of the 2 types . I looked at photos of my friend and I today from years ago and we both look so bedraggled with the same terrible uncut hair though we both kept fringes . We both looked like we only wore rags and got by on nothing much.
    I would feel that way too if I thought that relationships were something hard and took effort, and if I latched myself to sociopathic doucebags. Not that your estp dude is like that , but really- if he's making you feel bad honey, it's bad. Bad isn't something that will turn into good. Shit is shit. Your womyn power won't save him from being a LOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRR.

    We both had the same doctor who treated everyone else wonderfully and said the most horrid things to the two of us individually and he didn't even know we were friends . I bring this up because it was so odd that he had the same reaction to us both .
    What did he say to you exactly. Can you give specific examples?

    Differences between us are that she had more of a health focus with her food habits and dietary needs etc . Her husband was my husband's best friend though I never felt that I connected with her husband who was XSTj , one on one .
    You do sound infp I guess.

    Unfortunatly life did not go well for my friend who was diagnosed as the most clinically depressed person in the country - that means more depressed than any person in prison....well anyone known in the medical field . She has never fully recovered and is no longer married to her husband .
    Some people are naturally more sad than others but how in the hell can you say that somebody is the saddest person in the country? Maybe a therapist said that to her as a joke to make her lighten up or something, you know.

    My husband has always been good at things that I am not like dealing with telephone calls , organizing things to get done , doing the money , talking in front of groups , leading groups .
    Well that's understandable. In relationships it seems everybody likes to find in others what they can't find in themselves. But if I can already find everything that I need in myself, it makes me not relating so much to that typical complementary thing. I guess I'm just a type of person where I want an equal more than I want a 'compelement.' Or I guess I just know that, because I want to fuck a guy it doesn't mean that he's right for me in any other way.

    I am better at understanding people , looking at the bigger picture - all the pieces of the puzzle , being a parent and all that that means ( he was not a hands on dad at all) .
    If he's not making you feel good then is it really a good relationship? If there's no reward for the pain , no light at the end of the tunnel is this relationship worth saving? The way I look at is this: Life is hard enough just learning to live by yourself. If and when you're ready to love another, it should be something that gives you hope and inspires you genuinely. It should be the relief of pain, not more pain. Why do we hold onto our pain like it means something? Why are we attracted to bad boys that throat fuck people over nice guys???????????????????????????////////////////// the mysterious of women and those with women like souls. =)


    Well that's enough for now .
    Last edited by bnd; 11-30-2010 at 10:04 AM.

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    Hi, Moon Shadow, and welcome.

    I don't have a lot of time today (working), but ... first off, a big dumb cyber hug to you.

    Second, as New Agey people sometimes put it, I encourage you to "be gentle with yourself." It sounds to me as if you may have been living, for a long time, a life that has not allowed you to truly flourish. Forgive me if that's presumptuous for me to say.

    I spent 10 years married to, 12 years total with, my conflictor. I'm IEI, he LSE. Whatever you determine about your type, your husband's type, and your marriage, you may find you have some layers to work through to understand your situation. I stumbled into Socionics as part of a broad effort to better understand what went wrong in my marriage. And one thing that became clear to me is that I spent a long time trying to be something I wasn't, trying to be the type of person my ex needed, leading the kind of life he wanted. If you have done this, it may take some time to figure out what's been going on.

    The fact that you even have to ask whether your marriage is dual or conflict leads me to think that whatever it is, it probably is not duality. I don't want to leap to that conclusion--of course.

    Someone posted a book on Socionics by Reinin to this forum a while back, and it has a really good description (imo) of conflict. What I took from it is this: Regardless of how conflict may look on the surface, the dynamic plays out such that if one person gets his/her needs met, the other doesn't. Perhaps that dynamic can look subtle. If you're a wife and mother and making sacrifices, you can easily grow out of touch with your needs, such that you're not completely consciously aware that your needs are in fact going unmet.

    And if your partner's needs are winning out, have trumped yours, he may simply be unable to see that your needs are unmet. In my marriage it was: roof over head, check; meals on table, check; treat my wife decently, check; working hard, check; being good parents, check; and so on.

    Just because one partner's values or needs have won out does not mean that person is any more deeply fulfilled than the other, by the way. It just means that where two unstated agendas are at odds, one or the other agenda is going to tend to take precedence. Or you'll get a mishmash of goals, with none of the goals fully met. Some kind of unsatisfying compromise. And on its face, the relationship may not appear all that bad.

    My ex and I were not in out-and-out, day-to-day overt conflict. We were both pretty nice people, and we sincerely cared about and respected each other in many ways. We tried very hard to make the marriage work. We had some good times. But the marriage was "work." I mean, sure, any relationship can take "work," I guess; that's a popular notion. But is that work fruitful, or does it lead nowhere? Does being with your partner make you feel stronger, or weaker? Is your soul expanding, or is it retracting, hiding? Are your best qualities finding a home in the other person, or are they marooned, in check, even abandoned? Can you and your partner help each other be your true selves, your best selves? With him, do you feel truly accepted and understood? Do you know that he loves you for who you really are, and that he wants more and more of that--who you essentially are?

    I wonder if some types of conflict matches are easier to play out because certain personalities more readily fit the social stereotype of strong, responsible good provider (LSE man, for instance) and feminine, affectionate wife (such as IEI woman). A relationship like this can "look right." Doesn't mean it's truly satisfying and that the partners are continuing to grow as individuals.

    Maybe I'm wrong--I still have a lot to learn and lot of recovery to do--but it seems to me that the type of "work" that does make sense in a relationship is not like what I've been describing. For example, in my current relationship, I give my partner the gift of my time. I give him my honesty. I do a different kind of work, so far, and it looks more like this: I will remain fiercely devoted to the essential need to be honest about myself, about my partner, about my needs, my past, my fears, my dreams. I will NOT lose myself. I will hold on to ME so that I can give him more of me, and if it turns out that the real me is not what he needs, and vice versa, then I will have the courage to let go of the relationship and move on. And I expect from him the same. This is the opposite kind of work from what I did in my marriage, where I slowly, almost imperceptibly at times, learned to stuff and squelch and pretend. This work doesn't feel like work, really. It's not all sunshine and roses, either. We both have baggage, and we've both learned some unhelpful patterns in past relationships. I don't know this man's type for certain, but I can say that once the wrappings of falsehood start unraveling (because you're moving, not standing still), it's surprising how easily all of that falls away. Because it wants to fall away. And it's not about the other person; it's about the self.

    Maybe you could consider setting aside this question of the marriage for a bit and concentrate solely on YOU. Who are you, Moon Shadow? Why not start a thread on you alone, to determine your type? There's not enough information in your posts here for anyone to give excellent feedback on that subject, imo. You have said a few things that made me think you might be INFj. One detail (among several) was your description of yourself and your close friend. My longtime best friend is IEI, and we met as girls, and we weren't too much like your description. (But your description was extremely brief, so grain of salt etc.) We were very aesthetically oriented, she a bit more flashy, me a little more offbeat, but both hyper-aware of our appearance. Our friendship was marked by big kooky adventures, grand displays of emotion, a sort of edgy chaos.

    We were in theater together, we were both, uh, literary artsy-fartsy wannabes. We both grew up to become sort of pseudo-intellectual/intellectual (ha!), she earning a PhD and making herself crazy in the process, me bowing out of that race in advance of becoming crazy. She's now a poet, and I work in book publishing.

    Does any of that sound at all familiar? It's not so much the details or the career paths ... it's the underlying spirit of the friendship and the women in it, maybe. It has a certain tone--dramatic, dynamic, intensely emotional, driven toward the intellectual--but I'm not sure I'm communicating it well.

    Anyway, keep posting, please, and living with this process of understanding, above all, yourself.
    Last edited by golden; 11-30-2010 at 12:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I tend to view all humans as whores that just want to get throat fucked. Like "I can see past the soul you think that you have, you just want sex and to be really bad."
    Yes, please! lol

    But I don't see myself as being either/or, you know, BnD. Sure, I want sex and to be really, really bad, but that's not all I want. In fact, if I GET my whore needs fulfilled, I'm sort of freed up to go do other things that make my life good, too, you know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Hi, Moon Shadow, and welcome.

    I don't have a lot of time today (working), but ... first off, a big dumb cyber hug to you.

    Second, as New Agey people sometimes put it, I encourage you to "be gentle with yourself." It sounds to me as if you may have been living, for a long time, a life that has not allowed you to truly flourish. Forgive me if that's presumptuous for me to say.

    I spent 10 years married to, 12 years total with, my conflictor. I'm IEI, he LSE. Whatever you determine about your type, your husband's type, and your marriage, you may find you have some layers to work through to understand your situation. I stumbled into Socionics as part of a broad effort to better understand what went wrong in my marriage. And one thing that became clear to me is that I spent a long time trying to be something I wasn't, trying to be the type of person my ex needed, leading the kind of life he wanted. If you have done this, it may take some time to figure out what's been going on.

    The fact that you even have to ask whether your marriage is dual or conflict leads me to think that whatever it is, it probably is not duality. I don't want to leap to that conclusion--of course.

    Someone posted a book on Socionics by Reinin to this forum a while back, and it has a really good description (imo) of conflict. What I took from it is this: Regardless of how conflict may look on the surface, the dynamic plays out such that if one person gets his/her needs met, the other doesn't. Perhaps that dynamic can look subtle. If you're a wife and mother and making sacrifices, you can easily grow out of touch with your needs, such that you're not completely consciously aware that your needs are in fact going unmet.

    And if your partner's needs are winning out, have trumped yours, he may simply be unable to see that your needs are unmet. In my marriage it was: roof over head, check; meals on table, check; treat my wife decently, check; working hard, check; being good parents, check; and so on.

    Just because one partner's values or needs have won out does not mean that person is any more deeply fulfilled than the other, by the way. It just means that where two unstated agendas are at odds, one or the other agenda is going to tend to take precedence. Or you'll get a mishmash of goals, with none of the goals fully met. Some kind of unsatisfying compromise. And on its face, the relationship may not appear all that bad.

    My ex and I were not in out-and-out, day-to-day overt conflict. We were both pretty nice people, and we sincerely cared about and respected each other in many ways. We tried very hard to make the marriage work. We had some good times. But the marriage was "work." I mean, sure, any relationship can take "work," I guess; that's a popular notion. But is that work fruitful, or does it lead nowhere? Does being with your partner make you feel stronger, or weaker? Is your soul expanding, or is it retracting, hiding? Are your best qualities finding a home in the other person, or are they marooned, in check, even abandoned? Can you and your partner help each other be your true selves, your best selves? With him, do you feel truly accepted and understood? Do you know that he loves you for who you really are, and that he wants more and more of that--who you essentially are?

    I wonder if some types of conflict matches are easier to play out because certain personalities more readily fit the social stereotype of strong, responsible good provider (LSE man, for instance) and feminine, affectionate wife (such as IEI woman). A relationship like this can "look right." Doesn't mean it's truly satisfying and that the partners are continuing to grow as individuals.

    Maybe I'm wrong--I still have a lot to learn and lot of recovery to do--but it seems to me that the type of "work" that does make sense in a relationship is not like what I've been describing. For example, in my current relationship, I give my partner the gift of my time. I give him my honesty. I do a different kind of work, so far, and it looks more like this: I will remain fiercely devoted to the essential need to be honest about myself, about my partner, about my needs, my past, my fears, my dreams. I will NOT lose myself. I will hold on to ME so that I can give him more of me, and if it turns out that the real me is not what he needs, and vice versa, then I will have the courage to let go of the relationship and move on. And I expect from him the same. This is the opposite kind of work from what I did in my marriage, where I slowly, almost imperceptibly at times, learned to stuff and squelch and pretend. This work doesn't feel like work, really. It's not all sunshine and roses, either. We both have baggage, and we've both learned some unhelpful patterns in past relationships. I don't know this man's type for certain, but I can say that once the wrappings of falsehood start unraveling (because you're moving, not standing still), it's surprising how easily all of that falls away. Because it wants to fall away. And it's not about the other person; it's about the self.

    Maybe you could consider setting aside this question of the marriage for a bit and concentrate solely on YOU. Who are you, Moon Shadow? Why not start a thread on you alone, to determine your type?
    great, great post, golden. I highlighted my favorite parts. and as usual, it all sounds pretty familiar.

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    What kind of things have you gotten your feelings hurt about?


    Like peteronfiree said, what kind of things do you conflict about?

    Because it could just be him being a prick, a conflict isnt necessarily function related sometimes people are just messed up.

    And maybe he isnt EST and you aerent INF. I mean, if you aerent sure which one you are to that extent perhaps you are neither?

    Also I recently got out of a two and half year relationship with my dual(LSI) mainly because she hurt me and i put the blame on her faults not on socionics, the fact that Id rather dump her than work through out our problems could prove she was actually my conflcictor, but it seems that there were just too many problems at once to deal with; She cheated on me, wanted an open relationship which I didnt , I suspect cheated on me some more, talked to me like i was real shit and that really put down my self esteem. I told her too stop but she would just retort "you're too sensitive" etc and I just dont know how to deal when people answer that to me. Id rather just let me be, if Im too sensitive, why bother them? Im not gonna chhage and appearantly neither are they, nothing she said was cristicism towards my polr but real verbal abuse.
    Last edited by Typhon; 11-30-2010 at 03:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    All in all, it just sounds like he's using your religious belief to manipulate you.
    yep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonShadow View Post
    If I am EII I do feel that I use very well and even . I can give and recieve emotional responses very well now and have visions and dreams often about future events . I often gaze off into my own little world for time out and to organize and think about things .
    Both IEI and EII use ,,, very well, the question you will have to answer is which aspects do you prefer?

    The part that made me tick in your posts is when you said you had to learn to use body language... care to tell more about that?
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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    As it's a j/p determination question, here's the mandatory polarization sorter question for what it's worth...

    MoonShadow:

    1) In the world and in any individual there are two conflicts, both are valid but which one do you feel is the greatest (most unbalanced) in you?

    a) conflict between your spiritual self (= the mind) and your physical self (= the body)
    b) conflict between your emotional self (= the man) and your rational self (= the cold logic)

    2) Alternatively, you may also reverse the question and try to answer: "do you have more difficulties..."

    a) telling if you are more N than S
    b) telling if you are more F than T

    Subsidiary question:

    Reading the 8 function definitions, which one(s) do you find harder to understand than the others?
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Someone posted a book on Socionics by Reinin to this forum a while back, and it has a really good description (imo) of conflict. What I took from it is this: Regardless of how conflict may look on the surface, the dynamic plays out such that if one person gets his/her needs met, the other doesn't. Perhaps that dynamic can look subtle. If you're a wife and mother and making sacrifices, you can easily grow out of touch with your needs, such that you're not completely consciously aware that your needs are in fact going unmet.
    Hi Golden thanks for sharing a bit about your own relationship of conflict . Hope you are doing fine now .

    Reinin's book is a good read and said this under Duality (Supplemental) which may fit what I have been trying to describe in the relationship (I bolded the parts regarding manipulation) -

    Strange as it may seem, conflicts may arise in supplemental relationships also. As we have already said, in supplemental relationships the weak functions of one partner are in the zones of strong functions of the other, i.e. these people have more opportunities to influence each other. My suggestible function is my supplementing partner’s zone of confidence. His/her whole being has an impact on me; he/she does not even have to try hard to influence me, he/she is just being him/herself. Some executives are already using this information to manipulate people in negotiations and signing contracts.
    There are enormous opportunities for mutual manipulation hidden in supplemental relationships. Here unlike in any other relationship the dichotomy of ‘friend-or-foe’ is revealed. If a person is a ‘friend’, his/her worldview and system of values are the same as mine, and then I might allow this person to be active in the area of my weaker functions. We share mutual trust. And, consequently, if the person is ‘a foe’, a conflict may arise: “Why are you manipulating me?” The person did not mean to manipulate, he/she did it naturally, he/she was not even aware of doing it, but the other person having realized what’s going on may blow up with anger and frustration.
    In supplemental relationships the area of creativity of one person may correspond to the zone of problems of the other person (i.e. it is the area where a person avoids taking risks and always seeks to clarify the situation as much as possible). However, if people do not trust each other absolutely they may reproach each other: “Why do you have to make things difficult?”

    Table 3
    Formula of the supplemental relationships
    I-
    good
    bad
    need
    no need

    You-
    desire
    fear
    problems
    solutions

    potential conflict-
    I do not want to be manipulated; I am not a puppet. I can do it myself If there is no complete trust, partners reproach each other: “Why do you have to make things difficult?” "There is no need to rack your brain trying to solve your problems, better stick to the norms and customs of the society!"


    So duality isn't all perfect according to Reinin! SLE and me certainly lived lives full of different norms and customs before we got together so maybe this played a larger role than I ever realized because to be really honest most if not all of the conflict occurred in this area .


    This below is kind of how I have felt - A bit destroyed on the inside but Reinin says that it is symmetrical , so I should have been destroying my SLE just as equally also , which didn't occur .

    This conflict is symmetrical; a Don Quixote similarly ignores a Dreiser's inner state. He/she unintentionally destroys the other person on the inside.

    So based on that new bit of information I would say that it is more likely that we are duality with a bit of the 'foe" playing out .

    ?

    interesting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    What kind of things have you gotten your feelings hurt about?
    Hurt that I wasn't important enough to him for him to listen to me and care about my feelings , that he always put himself first and then family and friends - I felt that I was given last priority at times . Lied to & under appreciated .

    But like I said he treats me like a princess now and says that if he could take it all back he would . He says that he was just stupid and selfish when he was younger and never did not appreciate me but had rules in his head that he followed . He says that he thought that he was really good with feelings but now realizes that he actually wasn't and got so much wrong . He says no one makes him feel so happy and in love as me , that he can just look at my face and know that I love him .


    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    Like peteronfiree said, what kind of things do you conflict about?
    It was mainly over my introverted tendancies I guess . He says that he worried that I would become reclusive ( he was not used to introverts I think ) . He would try to manipulate me by words is probably the best way to describe it to do things that he thought I should do socially .

    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    Because it could just be him being a prick, a conflict isnt necessarily function related sometimes people are just messed up.
    Yes , he apologized for his behaviours when I finally had enough and wanted to leave . He is truly sorry now and has changed dramatically .

    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    And maybe he isnt EST and you aerent INF. I mean, if you aerent sure which one you are to that extent perhaps you are neither?
    Maybe ......
    Maybe I am actually a thinking type as I can be quite logical at times and blunt......
    Maybe he is a feeling type as he lights up at my feelings ......
    Lots of maybe's .....

    But I think I have it correct . Correct me if I am wrong .

    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    Also I recently got out of a two and half year relationship with my dual(LSI) mainly because she hurt me and i put the blame on her faults not on socionics, the fact that Id rather dump her than work through out our problems could prove she was actually my conflcictor, but it seems that there were just too many problems at once to deal with; She cheated on me, wanted an open relationship which I didnt , I suspect cheated on me some more, talked to me like i was real shit and that really put down my self esteem. I told her too stop but she would just retort "you're too sensitive" etc and I just dont know how to deal when people answer that to me. Id rather just let me be, if Im too sensitive, why bother them? Im not gonna chhage and appearantly neither are they, nothing she said was cristicism towards my polr but real verbal abuse.
    Sorry to hear that your ex verbally abused you and more Typhon .

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    Both IEI and EII use ,,, very well, the question you will have to answer is which aspects do you prefer?
    Okay good to know that I am at least somewhat on track . Can I prefer all of those functions I want them all and more !

    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    The part that made me tick in your posts is when you said you had to learn to use body language... care to tell more about that?
    I guess I just thought that SLE would automatically just "know" things about me but that was not the case I had to push myself verbally to tell him in words and use my face and body language more to help him understand . He says that he reads my face - then goes back to what the particular look that I am using has meant in the past to find out what it most likely means now .

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    As it's a j/p determination question, here's the mandatory polarization sorter question for what it's worth...

    MoonShadow:

    1) In the world and in any individual there are two conflicts, both are valid but which one do you feel is the greatest (most unbalanced) in you?

    a) conflict between your spiritual self (= the mind) and your physical self (= the body)
    b) conflict between your emotional self (= the man) and your rational self (= the cold logic)

    2) Alternatively, you may also reverse the question and try to answer: "do you have more difficulties..."

    a) telling if you are more N than S
    b) telling if you are more F than T

    Subsidiary question:

    Reading the 8 function definitions, which one(s) do you find harder to understand than the others?
    I could only answer question 2 and my answer is "b" - telling if I am more F than T .

    I find it hardest to understand the written function definitions of thinking . In practice I find using difficult .
    Last edited by MoonShadow; 12-01-2010 at 06:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    You're codependent. You need to love yourself first! People always get hurt in codependent relationships. You need to join a support group gaining self-confidence for yourself with other hurt women and gay men (with oprah as the leader, naturally) and stand on top of a mountain going 'hi-ya!'.... before you're ready to love another person.
    Thankyou for everything that you shared BulletsAnd Doves . Yes maybe I have been a bit codependent ...... I have learnt much through all of this and am a far stronger person now thankfully .


    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    What did he say to you exactly. Can you give specific examples?
    The doctor told us both that we had eating disorders which in both cases was completely untrue and that we both shouldn't have got married and we would be terrible mothers due to this ..... then when my friend had a baby that it was her fault whenever her baby got sick , and we were doomed as mothers as we shouldn't of had children until we were in our thirties ..... ( Terrible people skills in play here ! Though he was a well respected doctor ! )
    Maybe we just took what what he said too personally but when you are sensitive this does affect you somewhat . It especially upset my friend who became slightly paranoid about health issues - I just gave up on him and found myself a new doc .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peteronfireee View Post
    Specifically, what areas do you guys conflict in? How often and how long do the fights last?

    How does it feel when you guys work together? (Is is smooth sailing, or rough to get stuff done?)

    What about life goals and such? Its been mentioned that duality may not work when each person is going in separate paths/or have different goals.
    Never fighting, just disagreements and they never last long as I always give in and SLE can't stand my tears too much .

    We work together on projects extremely well I think ( smooth sailing ) .

    Our life goals were pretty much the same .

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