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Thread: Romancing styles for Delta dual pairs - do you relate?

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    Default Romancing styles for Delta dual pairs - do you relate?

    Pseudo-Caregivers/Students: ENFp, INFj
    These are types who exhibit paternal/maternal tendencies towards others in their everyday lives and may thus carry over these notions and temperaments into their romantic life. These types habitually attempt to give their partner what he/she "needs" (or what they believe they need). As a result, they may become drained by lack of attendence to their own needs and desires. In a partner, they are searching for a combination of strength and gentleness.

    Teachers: ESTj, ISTp
    If I were to describe this type's approach to love, it would be "serious." He approaches his love interest almost with the intention to "teach." This can quite possibly rub the object of his affection in the wrong way, possibly interpreted as condescension. Like the childlike type, he may tend to live "outside sexuality" and may have to intellectualize it in order to be comfortable. He is looking for a worthy pupil.

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    I can definitely see the teacher with ESTj/ISTp, and also how it does feel like condescension on the receiving end, hehe. However, I'm not sure about the INFj/ENFp one for me... Makes it sound like someone who just doesn't care about himself enough.

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    Yes.

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    Yes, I've seen this somewhat. In fact, some examples immediately jumped to mind. That's not to say it's like that all the time everywhere for either type. But they can be tendencies.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladyinred View Post
    Pseudo-Caregivers/Students: ENFp, INFj
    These are types who exhibit paternal/maternal tendencies towards others in their everyday lives and may thus carry over these notions and temperaments into their romantic life. These types habitually attempt to give their partner what he/she "needs" (or what they believe they need). As a result, they may become drained by lack of attendence to their own needs and desires. In a partner, they are searching for a combination of strength and gentleness.
    Ohhh yeah.

    I know a lot of NFs who seem to prefer the role of "helper" or "care-giver". sometimes they don't want to focus on themselves at all, and actively dislike being fussed over.

    Obviously Lobo doesn't like that.



    Teachers: ESTj, ISTp
    If I were to describe this type's approach to love, it would be "serious." He approaches his love interest almost with the intention to "teach." This can quite possibly rub the object of his affection in the wrong way, possibly interpreted as condescension. Like the childlike type, he may tend to live "outside sexuality" and may have to intellectualize it in order to be comfortable. He is looking for a worthy pupil.
    I sort of relate to that, actually. Although I'm sort of a reserved teacher at times. Sometimes I'm super upfront about it, sometimes I feel like I say too much and don't say anything. I relate to a lot of intellectualizing.

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    I guess I cannot escape the teacher vibe. Just looking at my blog on this site and my posts, I seem to.......... want to do a lot of explaining about teachable matters...

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    I actually identified with those descriptions a lot when I first read them. They kind of embody an idealized relationship for me, like the kinds of things I want to see in people but rarely ever do.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    Hell, I identify with that and I'm not delta. =p

    The problem with everybody on here, the only problem is you think you're different when you're really not. And it's just frustrating kinda to the outside world. It's like how everybody treated Johnathon in Buffy. He wanted to be this outcast (and thought he was), but really he was just sort of like everybody else. =/ And he distanced himself from other people because of that.

    Does Galen really think of me as somebody that we'd subjectively clash with because we're opposing quadras? That's sad to me if he feels that way, because I don't feel that way about him. It's sort of annoying because I feel that he's the one that is pushing me away, and not me. I actually like him. And I have having to say 'actually' with that but it's like he behaves in a way where he makes you think it's a big shocker that anybody likes him.

    I love you galen! I love you gay-len. I will chase you like pepe lepew chases the cat. I looooove you. I love your shy victimy gay boyness. It's soooo cute and adorable. You are sooo right. fags are too showy and pink and we need to be more dull and serious like you. You are the one. You are the true leader of gays not me. You always had more power. You are worthy and powerful gaylen. And the only reason you make people joke is you yourself are so serious. Maybe if you were light-hearted yourself we'd be serious like you want. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Does Galen really think of me as somebody that we'd subjectively clash with because we're opposing quadras? That's sad to me if he feels that way, because I don't feel that way about him. It's sort of annoying because I feel that he's the one that is pushing me away, and not me. I actually like him. And I have having to say 'actually' with that but it's like he behaves in a way where he makes you think it's a big shocker that anybody likes him.
    I don't have any problems with you
    The only disagreements we've really had from what I see are just based on what socionics is supposed to be. Outside of that you have some great insight into people, you aren't at all malicious, and you seem like a great guy to have around.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I love you galen! I love you gay-len. I will chase you like pepe lepew chases the cat. I looooove you. I love your shy victimy gay boyness. It's soooo cute and adorable. You are sooo right. fags are too showy and pink and we need to be more dull and serious like you. You are the one. You are the true leader of gays not me. You always had more power. You are worthy and powerful gaylen. And the only reason you make people joke is you yourself are so serious. Maybe if you were light-hearted yourself we'd be serious like you want. lol
    AND THEN WE STOPPED BEING FRIENDS

    But seriously thanks
    I didn't know I came off as "that" serious. I think it has a lot to do with the environment I'm in, I need to be around more serious people if I want to stop being so serious. Or something. Maybe I'm just a serious guy by nature.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I didn't know I came off as "that" serious. I think it has a lot to do with the environment I'm in, I need to be around more serious people if I want to stop being so serious. Or something. Maybe I'm just a serious guy by nature.
    You are. And there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that.
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    You don't look overtly serious in your photos. You seem normal.

    It happens sometimes to me when I am processing information, I get very serious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Ohhh yeah.

    I know a lot of NFs who seem to prefer the role of "helper" or "care-giver". sometimes they don't want to focus on themselves at all, and actively dislike being fussed over.

    Obviously Lobo doesn't like that.
    It's just a weird dynamic for me... In an ideal romantic case, you'd have both people focusing on the other person. The thing is that STs will naturally tend to be attuned to their own interests being met, and expect the other person to complain about things rather than exploring in their minds what could be going on with the other person. Well, this could well be that I just experienced bad relationships, but this has happened to me at least twice, and I'm happier when I don't give in to just doting over someone naively, and openly assert my own interests. I fear being taken advantage of, which might be the main issue at hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    It's just a weird dynamic for me... In an ideal romantic case, you'd have both people focusing on the other person. The thing is that STs will naturally tend to be attuned to their own interests being met, and expect the other person to complain about things rather than exploring in their minds what could be going on with the other person. Well, this could well be that I just experienced bad relationships, but this has happened to me at least twice, and I'm happier when I don't give in to just doting over someone naively, and openly assert my own interests. I fear being taken advantage of, which might be the main issue at hand.
    Yeah, I think I know what you mean. I think I have less a fear of being taken advantage of than you, but maybe I should have more. I also think I'm less likely than you to assert myself sometimes; I just... don't like doing it and it makes me upset when I feel I have to.

    It makes me very happy to have someone think about me on their own, to consider my wants and needs without my pushing for it. That sounds selfish saying it like that... selfish to want someone to care for and consider me.

    Occasionally delta STs will surprise me with moments of genuine... how to put it... they actually look, focus, figure out what I need, and work to meet that need. (The resulting work isn't usually a problem, it's the initial focus and noticing.) I haven't figured out the complete pattern for that, but it seems to happen most with ones who have had their own internal needs met already. But it is kind of rare, yeah.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Yeah, I think I know what you mean. I think I have less a fear of being taken advantage of than you, but maybe I should have more. I also think I'm less likely than you to assert myself sometimes; I just... don't like doing it and it makes me upset when I feel I have to.

    It makes me very happy to have someone think about me on their own, to consider my wants and needs without my pushing for it. That sounds selfish saying it like that... selfish to want someone to care for and consider me.

    Occasionally delta STs will surprise me with moments of genuine... how to put it... they actually look, focus, figure out what I need, and work to meet that need. (The resulting work isn't usually a problem, it's the initial focus and noticing.) I haven't figured out the complete pattern for that, but it seems to happen most with ones who have had their own internal needs met already. But it is kind of rare, yeah.
    It's not being selfish. You never want to emotionally invest in someone who isn't into you that way as well, it hurts way too much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I actually identified with those descriptions a lot when I first read them. They kind of embody an idealized relationship for me, like the kinds of things I want to see in people but rarely ever do.
    Oh, shut up.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Yeah, I think I know what you mean. I think I have less a fear of being taken advantage of than you, but maybe I should have more. I also think I'm less likely than you to assert myself sometimes; I just... don't like doing it and it makes me upset when I feel I have to.

    It makes me very happy to have someone think about me on their own, to consider my wants and needs without my pushing for it. That sounds selfish saying it like that... selfish to want someone to care for and consider me.

    Occasionally delta STs will surprise me with moments of genuine... how to put it... they actually look, focus, figure out what I need, and work to meet that need. (The resulting work isn't usually a problem, it's the initial focus and noticing.) I haven't figured out the complete pattern for that, but it seems to happen most with ones who have had their own internal needs met already. But it is kind of rare, yeah.
    FWIW I would imagine that Lobo actually gets taken advantage of less than you do. I think he is more in touch with his own needs and know how to more directly address them.

    You sort of seem to not really address your needs and then get upset when someone else doesn't do it for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    FWIW I would imagine that Lobo actually gets taken advantage of less than you do. I think he is more in touch with his own needs and know how to more directly address them.

    You sort of seem to not really address your needs and then get upset when someone else doesn't do it for you.
    I didn't get the impression that she's questioning who gets taken advantage of more, but that she doesn't have that fear present when dealing with someone...

    *waits for angry Minde's response to your post*

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    the descriptions don't sound way off to me. frankly, i think i'm a little more selfish than how the pseudo-caregiver is described. when i do focus outward on people i care about, it does tend to manifest in that way. but i'm pretty self-contained for the most part. i can see the lack of attendance to my own needs manifested more in a sort of passive acceptance and adaptation to my partner rather than an active energy-draining of giving activities. if that makes sense.

    the "strength and gentleness" thing makes me go mmmm...lol. but isn't that true for most women?

    also, if i respect someone, i find condescension to be pretty much the easiest fault to forgive. i maybe overlook it too much and put myself in a position of not having enough leverage with people. so i wonder if it is also typical of delta STs to be sensitive of that tendency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    It's just a weird dynamic for me... In an ideal romantic case, you'd have both people focusing on the other person. The thing is that STs will naturally tend to be attuned to their own interests being met, and expect the other person to complain about things rather than exploring in their minds what could be going on with the other person. Well, this could well be that I just experienced bad relationships, but this has happened to me at least twice, and I'm happier when I don't give in to just doting over someone naively, and openly assert my own interests. I fear being taken advantage of, which might be the main issue at hand.
    i'm ambivalent about what you've written here. i agree that in a romantic relationship it is ideal for each person to be focused on the other. on the other hand, i absolutely can't stand being expected to read another person's mind so the part about "expecting the other person to complain about things" makes me think...well, if you don't say it out loud, its not really fair to expect the other person to know. communication and all. lol.

    soo...i agree with you on principle as far as not being selfish and focusing attention toward the person you are with, but i'm not sure what you're saying your expectations are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    Oh, shut up.
    lol, what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    i'm ambivalent about what you've written here. i agree that in a romantic relationship it is ideal for each person to be focused on the other. on the other hand, i absolutely can't stand being expected to read another person's mind so the part about "expecting the other person to complain about things" makes me think...well, if you don't say it out loud, its not really fair to expect the other person to know. communication and all. lol.

    soo...i agree with you on principle as far as not being selfish and focusing attention toward the person you are with, but i'm not sure what you're saying your expectations are.
    The concept of "Fairness" in a relationship with an Fi valuer can truly be a bitch... It can make one stay in abusive relationships, or maintain hurtful dynamics, because you try to use some kind of moral logic to assign fault or rights. I challenge your notion that it's not fair to expect the other person to know what's wrong with you without you saying it aloud. I wasn't referring to a case where I look grumpy and then expect the other person to know that I just ate something that gave me a stomach ache... I was talking about certain nuances that occur in relationships in general that if not picked up, can result in problems/hurts between the two people. I'll give you an example I'm making up right now:

    Suppose you make your SO a fancy surprise dinner one night. Said SO comes home, but already ate before arriving, and doesn't say anything about you did, goes to bed. In your head you might think that it's not fair to complain about it because the SO didn't know that you were making the dinner beforehand... Is it fair to expect the SO to at least show some appreciation for what you did? Why? Then what might happen, and I think it's likely, is that you get upset but don't say anything because it's not fair to expect some kind of recognition for what you did. Ultimately, my point is: is it fair to expect the SO to know that you are hurt without saying it aloud because your dinner was just blown off without even a mention of it? This is the type of thing that seems to happen to me with STs, but not with the cooking example (I don't cook lol), and it definitely causes issues. It's not just a matter of communicating better also... It's just plain tiring to have to cater to someone by constantly explaining why you're upset in these types of situations who doesn't make an effort to understand you. The whole "seeing the goodness" in the other person bullshit is what makes some people stay in some kind of moral catch-22. I could go on and on but enough of this ranting, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Suppose you make your SO a fancy surprise dinner one night. Said SO comes home, but already ate before arriving, and doesn't say anything about you did, goes to bed. In your head you might think that it's not fair to complain about it because the SO didn't know that you were making the dinner beforehand... Is it fair to expect the SO to at least show some appreciation for what you did? Why? Then what might happen, and I think it's likely, is that you get upset but don't say anything because it's not fair to expect some kind of recognition for what you did. Ultimately, my point is: is it fair to expect the SO to know that you are hurt without saying it aloud because your dinner was just blown off without even a mention of it? This is the type of thing that seems to happen to me with STs, but not with the cooking example (I don't cook lol), and it definitely causes issues. It's not just a matter of communicating better also... It's just plain tiring to have to cater to someone by constantly explaining why you're upset in these types of situations who doesn't make an effort to understand you. The whole "seeing the goodness" in the other person bullshit is what makes some people stay in some kind of moral catch-22. I could go on and on but enough of this ranting, lol.
    i can definitely see what you're saying with this example. i'm not sure if the issue (in this particular example) is about the SO knowing why you are upset after the fact...but more about being too clueless to realize it would make you upset in the first place. lol. which is maybe what you've been getting at all along?

    hmm, i'm not sure what to say. i think you are right. i also think it's tricky when there is honest ignorance involved and somebody really just doesn't know any better. (which comes back to the issue of fairness!!! shit!!!)

    umm..commiseration, nothing useful to say, identicality, yay. :wink:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    Oh, shut up.
    Beg your pardon?
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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    lol, what?
    Sarcasm. You'll get used to it, noobie.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Tell him a joke about the frog and money to relieve the tension.

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    What tension?
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Oh, you did.

    Cheers.

    EDIT: Tsk-tsk.
    Last edited by Absurd; 12-03-2010 at 08:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    Sarcasm. You'll get used to it, noobie.
    ooooh, condescension, how titillating.

    i thought you needed this affirmation so i offered it to you at the expense of my own psychosocial needs. you're welcome, daddy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Oh, you did.

    Cheers.

    EDIT: Tsk-tsk.
    who did what? i dont see any jokes about frogs or money.

    WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON I AM JUST A NOOB AND I DO NOT UNDERSTAND

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    who did what? i dont see any jokes about frogs or money.

    WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON I AM JUST A NOOB AND I DO NOT UNDERSTAND
    He left me with a bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladyinred View Post
    Pseudo-Caregivers/Students: ENFp, INFj
    These are types who exhibit paternal/maternal tendencies towards others in their everyday lives and may thus carry over these notions and temperaments into their romantic life. These types habitually attempt to give their partner what he/she "needs" (or what they believe they need). As a result, they may become drained by lack of attendence to their own needs and desires. In a partner, they are searching for a combination of strength and gentleness.
    I don't understand how this is any different from a description of actual Caregiver types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I don't understand how this is any different from a description of actual Caregiver types.
    from the same source:

    (you've probably already seen this since you've been around awhile, but i feel like it might be good to post it for contrast)

    Caregivers: ESFj, ISFp
    These are those types who openly express their need to "protect" and care for their romantic interest. In conversation may often lend a sympathetic ear (which, depending on the person, may be interpreted as insincerity, but it's exactly what the Child-like type is looking for). They are looking for someone who will not only accept their paternal/maternal tendencies, but welcome and thrive on it.

  30. #30
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    FWIW I would imagine that Lobo actually gets taken advantage of less than you do. I think he is more in touch with his own needs and know how to more directly address them.

    You sort of seem to not really address your needs and then get upset when someone else doesn't do it for you.
    Even when I do point out my needs I can still get walked over, ignored, told I'm ridiculous...

    I don't disagree that Lobo probably gets taken advantage of less, which is why I said maybe I should have that fear more. On the other hand, fear can cripple me so... yeah...


    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    I didn't get the impression that she's questioning who gets taken advantage of more, but that she doesn't have that fear present when dealing with someone...

    *waits for angry Minde's response to your post*
    You know me well, haha...

    And, yeah, it's not a competition. It was me talking about how I relate, how I differ, why, and what it might mean.
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    Slippery when wet Simon Ssmall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I don't understand how this is any different from a description of actual Caregiver types.
    For one, caregivers dont really forget their own needs. They are fine with taking care of others, themselves and their environment and it goes without compromising any of this (in most cases). Delta NF's caregiveness simply comes from overfocusing on the other person, while forgetting their own wants and needs. Not to mention "caregiving" is usually more of a psichological nature than real/simple needs.
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmall View Post
    For one, caregivers dont really forget their own needs. They are fine with taking care of others, themselves and their environment and it goes without compromising any of this (in most cases). Delta NF's caregiveness simply comes from overfocusing on the other person, while forgetting their own wants and needs. Not to mention "caregiving" is usually more of a psichological nature than real/simple needs.
    I like this. In my experience I think for Delta NFs it's often the concern for the well-being as opposed to the actual... tending to it, I guess. ENFps seem to be better at instigating the actions which help than INFjs.

    Which I guess in an odd way balances what I was complaining about the STs before. Delta NF's tend more to notice/care and Delta STs tend to actually actively fix things (once they notice/care). Hm.




    I also like your location. Flying/traveling around...

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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I don't understand how this is any different from a description of actual Caregiver types.
    I'm more attracted to Infantile behaviour (i.e. playfulness, silliness) than to Caregiver behaviour (i.e. strength and gentleness).

    I'm more inclined to react to signs of wanting/needing something than actively seeking out things to "Caregive". Active gestures are usually physical or emotional things like breakfast in bed (out of the blue, just to keep whomever on their toes) or incredibly mushy things that I'm too embarrassed to write about

    I mean, I don't think Alpha SFs are immune to overfocusing on their partners, especially when it's an unbalanced relationship, and that's when the pseudo-codependency kicks in where you're just constantly chasing after a solution to a bad relationship to the detriment of your own wellbeing and happiness.

  34. #34
    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmall View Post
    For one, caregivers dont really forget their own needs. They are fine with taking care of others, themselves and their environment and it goes without compromising any of this (in most cases).
    False. Especially for ESEs and SEIs.

    Delta NF's caregiveness simply comes from overfocusing on the other person, while forgetting their own wants and needs. Not to mention "caregiving" is usually more of a psichological nature than real/simple needs.
    Well, now you're just reading into the description.

    I mean, I don't think Alpha SFs are immune to overfocusing on their partners, especially when it's an unbalanced relationship, and that's when the pseudo-codependency kicks in where you're just constantly chasing after a solution to a bad relationship to the detriment of your own wellbeing and happiness.
    Ya, this happens a LOT.

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    Slippery when wet Simon Ssmall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    False. Especially for ESEs and SEIs.
    Im talking about Delta ST's. Topic is about Delta caregivers and infantiles.

    Well, now you're just reading into the description.
    Im talking from my personal experience and the other NF's that I know in real life, im not overly conserned with any description. It was an answer to you to the question you asked. If you know better than me then why do you ask questions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmall View Post
    Im talking about Delta ST's. Topic is about Delta caregivers and infantiles.


    Im talking from my personal experience and the other NF's that I know in real life, im not overly conserned with any description. It was an answer to you to the question you asked. If you know better than me then why do you ask questions.
    Sorry, I just think the description is misleading.

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    Slippery when wet Simon Ssmall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Sorry, I just think the description is misleading.
    Well it made sense to me at least, but I can see how it can be misleading.
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

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    I didn't respond to this thread earlier because I just found it confusing and slightly irritating. Especially the "condescension" and "worthy pupil" part. Who says you're a worthy teacher? You better knock my damn socks off.

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