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Thread: duality is confusing me

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    Default duality is confusing me

    I'm an iee in a relationship with an sli.

    I was reading a book about creative problem solving and realised I have all the attributes to be a brilliant problem solver. In the book it said that even the most creative problem solvers can be discouraged by people who judge too quickly. Now my point is this.

    Has my sli partner been sucking the very life out of me all this time with his negative judgements?

    Is it wrong for me to expect support in getting my ideas off the ground?

    Am i doing damage to myself having this person in my life?

    It seems to me that sli's have absolutely no interest in helping an iee to achieve their dreams. He will either completely ignore me when i talk about something i am passionate about or sneer at how foolish he thinks my ideas are. How can he know one way or the other without even hearing the idea out?

    My questions to all of you are:

    Does an sli ever learn how to give positive feedback?

    Will his mind forever be glued shut?

    Can an sli ever see the worth of looking at the bigger picture? Will they ever be capable of seeing the value of working towards the goal of bringing harmony to the world? Are they only capable of seeing the inside of their own goldfish bowl?

    Is it in fact up to me to show him that the seemingly unachieveable can be achieved? Is that all just part of the dualisation process?

    Will he one day understand the reasons why i am useless at housework and that it is ok to be useless at something so mundane?

    Or will I end up with my self esteem being completely and utterly eroded from breathing in his toxic fumes?

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    Iee's put so much faith into their relationships and love. Do we put a little too much faith in it, i wonder?

    Nature is cruel. Is it natures way of teaching us a lesson?

    Will the one i love ultimately destroy me?

    Will he kill all the hope and aspirations I have with his criticisms and false accusations?

    That's how i feel right now. I feel like i have to kill everything that makes me ME in order to be understood by him.

    In the description about duality it says i should be able to be completely myself around my dual but i can't tell him a single thing that goes on inside my head because he just DOESN'T CARE. So how can that be true?

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Is duality confusing you? Or are you confusing duality - with something else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Is duality confusing you? Or are you confusing duality - with something else?
    Curiously you decide to support the view with your post, that she is likely mistaken, and not proclaim that also the dual relationship is part of individuals, and this particular istp might be just unreceptive, or she is really running head in the clouds chacing windmills, or that the dual system is flawed. Just goes it sounds beautifull and fits nicely a system doesnt make it right, mr teee. Unless you have the proof.

    Also supposing this girl really aint a troll. Then run away from the stupid relationship and find someone more worthy, if you feel the need to.
    Last edited by NewBorn STAR; 11-27-2010 at 06:02 PM. Reason: Wanted to add something

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuffinPouredFullofshit View Post
    Curiously you decide to support the view with your post, that she is likely mistaken...
    Did I? Or did the way I structured my sentence cause you to think I did?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Did I? Or did the way I structured my sentence cause you to think I did?
    Im not fond of these games . But i tend to view as the something a person decides to show in his message is the view that will allways dominte in the exchange of information often, unless its in those peoples schemas to wonder about the part that is unsaid. (Sometimes beneficial.) But if you really thought the other than what you wrote, this will only be confusing and distorient the person. You silly jokester

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Is duality confusing you? Or are you confusing duality - with something else?
    no i'm just asking some questions. thinking out loud.

    every iee i've ever spoken to has had problems with their sli's being jerks. that's just the way they are and they know they are jerks. feeling is their least function so of course they will be abrasive at times. i'm just wondering how all this plays out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuffinPouredFullofshit View Post
    Curiously you decide to support the view with your post, that she is likely mistaken, and not proclaim that also the dual relationship is part of individuals, and this particular istp might be just unreceptive, or she is really running head in the clouds chacing windmills, or that the dual system is flawed. Just goes it sounds beautifull and fits nicely a system doesnt make it right, mr teee. Unless you have the proof.

    Also supposing this girl really aint a troll. Then run away from the stupid relationship and find someone more worthy, if you feel the need to.
    yes but (i'm assuming you're not an iee yourself) us iee's have a problem taking criticism. we hate it and take it as an attack on our whole personality. i'm just wondering if being paired with someone with absolutely no tact at all whatsoever is actually a good thing for an iee. how else are we to overcome our fear of criticism unless we are confronted with it?

    it's easy for you to say just walk away. and no i'm not a troll, he does love me, i do know that. is love enough though?

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Can you give more structure to your thoughts? Trying to make sense out of them causes data skew-age on my part.

    First, Duality is one part psychology and one part personality. If you guys are psychologically compatible, your personalities could still conflict. In the same way, if your personalities are parallel, you still may not be psychologically compatible i.e. you have wrong typings. Are you sure you are IEE and that your partner is SLI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Can you give more structure to your thoughts? Trying to make sense out of them causes data skew-age on my part.

    First, Duality is one part psychology and one part personality. If you guys are psychologically compatible, your personalities could still conflict. In the same way, if your personalities are parallel, you still may not be psychologically compatible i.e. you have wrong typings. Are you sure you are IEE and that your partner is SLI?
    You know, I really really try very hard to structure my thoughts. I thought I did present them in a structured way. I thought I was great with my paragraphs, not just saying everything in one long stream like I used to. But alas, I am still confusing to people. Maybe that is one thing standing between me and my sli?

    What do you mean by psychologically? Is there a psychological type separate from a personality type that I am not aware of?

    I am 100% sure that I am IEE and he is SLI.

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    Socionics is irrelevant. Sounds like a bad situation. Find someone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twizzlestix View Post

    What do you mean by psychologically? Is there a psychological type separate from a personality type that I am not aware of?

    I am 100% sure that I am IEE and he is SLI.
    Psychologically - the way your brain is hard-wired, your Socionics type. Personality is software, it's your interests, goals, motivations etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Socionics is irrelevant. Sounds like a bad situation. Find someone else.
    Yeah it does sound like a bad situation. But you have to take into account that I am an IEE, I will always make it sound a bit more dramatic than it might be. Not intentionally to gain your sympathy or anything, I just probably felt like the world was ending at the time of writing.

    What I'm trying to figure out is:

    Is this the tense phase of duality? You know the innitial tense phase? We have only recently moved in together and things have been tense as we acclimatise to each others ways of doing things.

    Does a point come when you both just start to get each other? Is it possible that we met each other too late? Am I just too set in my ways now to change? Well I could probably change but can an sli? Can his mind ever be prized open?



    Ok I'm just going to go off on a rant now. You don't have to read on, as i said I'm just thinking out loud. It's how i make sense of all the stuff floating around in my head.


    I feel like I am repulsing him with my easy going view towards housework and my angry outbursts aren't helping matters either. I am doing my best though, even if my best is still kinda messy and kinda angry. I just feel rejected when I think of the chasm between us and how we view the world. I hate it that he doesn't understand me. I hate it that he loves me less only because he has got it all wrong in his estimations of me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Psychologically - the way your brain is hard-wired, your Socionics type. Personality is software, it's your interests, goals, motivations etc.
    Yes but your motivations will be determined by type. Also your interests and goals.


    I think it's you who is confused. lol.
    Last edited by twizzlestix; 11-27-2010 at 09:12 PM. Reason: wasn't being bitchy.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twizzlestix View Post
    Yes but your motivations will be determined by type. Also your interests and goals.


    I think it's you who is confused. lol.
    Not necessarily. All ILIs don't have the same motivations, goals and interests as me. Maybe the basic ones(, , ), but that's part of my psychological make up as I've said.

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    What do you like about the guy?

    Do you like the guy?

    Why "100% sure" it's duality?

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    He sounds like a strong thinker. This means you're going to need to give him some reason as to why you need what you need logically. Let him know what your personality is, tell him that you need to feel loved. Explain to him what things he can "logically" do that will make you feel loved. Let him know that when you feel loved, you will want to do what he wants you to do for him. (At least, this is the way it is for me. . . . )

    As soon as he realizes that he'll more likely get x, y, z from you that he wants if he does x, y, z for you. He will probably be much more willing to do what you need from him. :wink:

    Duality can work. But as in any relationship telling the truth and having a foundation of trust is the only way a relationship will work. You need to tell a thinker how to make a feeler feel appreciated.

    If he wants the relationship to work, he'll step in line. Trust me. :wink:


    [Don't forget a relationship goes two ways - you'll need to bend for him as well.]

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    Assuming you've typed correctly...

    Does an sli ever learn how to give positive feedback?
    Yes. Suggest that they do so.

    Will his mind forever be glued shut?
    Only if you keep suggesting the same thing after it's been turned down.

    Can an sli ever see the worth of looking at the bigger picture? Will they ever be capable of seeing the value of working towards the goal of bringing harmony to the world? Are they only capable of seeing the inside of their own goldfish bowl?
    I dunno. How big of a picture are you expecting? IEEs have a weird tendancy to expect people to get all philosophical when they're just trying to brush their teeth.

    Is it in fact up to me to show him that the seemingly unachieveable can be achieved? Is that all just part of the dualisation process?
    Unachieveable in what way?

    Will he one day understand the reasons why I am useless at housework and that it is ok to be useless at something so mundane?
    Will you one day understand that it's impossible to be useless at something mundane?

    Or will I end up with my self esteem being completely and utterly eroded from breathing in his toxic fumes?
    Try a breath mint.

    Iees put so much faith into their relationships and love. Do we put a little too much faith in it, I wonder?
    Maybe. Flip a coin.

    Nature is cruel. Is it nature's way of teaching us a lesson?
    That question makes no sense.

    Will the one I love ultimately destroy me?
    That's silly. You can wear a bulletproof vest if you're paranoid, though.

    Will he kill all the hope and aspirations I have with his criticisms and false accusations?
    No. You'll just get more.

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    100% certain? I think I'll withdraw until you're more open-minded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Socionics is irrelevant. Sounds like a bad situation. Find someone else.
    this


    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    100% certain? I think I'll withdraw until you're more open-minded.
    and that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Psychologically - the way your brain is hard-wired, your Socionics type. Personality is software, it's your interests, goals, motivations etc.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by twizzlestix View Post
    I am 100% sure that I am IEE and he is SLI.
    WHY? Please list specific examples.

    You know, one little 'p' turning into a 'j' could make the relationship conflicting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    100% certain? I think I'll withdraw until you're more open-minded.
    True, but what bothers me more is why people rationalize against what their gut feeling is telling them...

    Twizzlestix... dump the guy. If you want a socionics reason, I've never felt like my dual misunderstands me or makes me feel horrible like you describe. I hope you're not too offended to consider another typing, for him or yourself.

    If you want a non-socionics reason, perhaps you aren't communicating well enough for him to naturally understand you... BUT if you try to communicate better because of him, you're changing yourself for the sake of a relationship... which is always a bad thing.

    If he makes you feel bad, dumping him will make you glad. Corny rhyme to get my point across.

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    Obviously if you're interacting with a specific dual with a relatively bad / pessimistic / -insert negative characteristic here- outlook and-or character you will not reap the full "benefits" of this relationships. Duals can be screwed up, too, so any relational attribute which is derived from properties indipendent of type shouldn't be connected to socionics.
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    If you need to rationalize someones behavior to make a relationship with them work (Socionics aside) it will probably crash and burn eventually
    That being said, it's quite possible that you're communication issues are related to opposing IE values and so you might not be duals
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    Hmm, this reminds of back in the day when I used to blame socionics for things that were bad in my relationships with duals, as well as the good things... To some extent I still do it now for a few things, but I'm more conscious about snapping myself out of it. I think that's what is going on between you and your hubby, Twizzles. I'm a believer of crashing and burning, then looking back and learning... I've noticed that when I'm in confusing situations like you are experiencing where emotions are involved, it's very hard for me to analyze things in a detached/unbiased way, so it becomes a bit pointless to force some kind of logical analysis to whatever is happening at the time. Idk if this applies to you as well.

    Maybe you could try to approach what is happening to you without analyzing it with socionics or whatever, and go by what feels right, your gut. I mean, if you're not happy, regardless if it's your fault or his, the relationship seems kinda pointless I'd think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twizzlestix View Post
    no i'm just asking some questions. thinking out loud.

    every iee i've ever spoken to has had problems with their sli's being jerks. that's just the way they are and they know they are jerks. feeling is their least function so of course they will be abrasive at times. i'm just wondering how all this plays out.
    I can understand an SLI "being a jerk" (from my point of view, at least), but it seems very un-SLI to have no interest in listening your ideas and dreams. That's his freakin' suggestive function! An SLI would eat that stuff up, and almost certainly want to help you too.

    I am 100% sure that I am IEE and he is SLI.
    Famous last words...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Famous last words...
    ^that. there should always be room for doubt/reconsideration with socionics.

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    Just think:

    If this person was making you happy would you really be complaining about him to strangers on an online message board?

    I can't see my mom doing that with my dad (and vice-versa). They like each other. They are *satisfied* with each other. They make each other happy as far as I can tell. They have some fights but that's just normal.

    I know Vero and others have disagreed with me, but I still think if you have to ask for advice then it wasn't a good relationship anyway. And the advice I asked for Vero about the relationship I thought I was going into before, didn't work. If I had to ask for help in the first place it wasn't a good idea. So the very essence of you wanting others input on this issue just tells me that this person isn't good for you. If you have to mingle around others and dreamily romanticize about how if he's 'The One' then he's probably not.

    I could be wrong. I hope I'm wrong, because everybody needs that human touch of love and connectiveness. But something tells me that I'm not wrong. That when you do meet your guy, you will just be enjoying each other mutually and you won't be asking for others opinions. If you both want to just go to the movies or the arcade, then you will just go together and enjoy each other. You won't feel that *anything* is wrong. You will love everything about this person. And even if you do find things wrong, you will work them out with each other and the big thing is you will be EAGER to work them out. It won't feel like a chore you don't want to do. It will feel interesting and exciting and just right. Even wrong will be right, when you meet mr. right!

    Hitta: fuck you sam you're being a stereotypical gay man helping others with their relationship issues. everybody is all 'oooh fags are good at giving advice.'

    I miss hitta. A lot. =(

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    ^that.

    And, do you necessarily need your husband's approval OR help to go out and achieve what you want to do?? It's your life and your ideas, go do them. (Although if they involve a lot of money or extreme change in lifestyle, then you will have to have some conversations with your hubby.)

    I can understand an SLI "being a jerk" (from my point of view, at least), but it seems very un-SLI to have no interest in listening your ideas and dreams. That's his freakin' suggestive function! An SLI would eat that stuff up, and almost certainly want to help you too
    Not necessarily. IEEs can also obsess over things, and become overly emotional b/c they're feeling misplaced stress. If those things are occurring, then it has nothing to do with "hopes and dreams" and has everything to do with being a pain in the ass.

    i.e. look at some of the reactions of SLIs to the IEEs here on the forum. Good example. Just because we live in our heads doesn't mean that everybody else needs to live there with us.
    IEE

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    I think this may just be a case where this person is not right for you. Some people , even duals are screwed up for reasons other than socionics relationships, so maybe you should just ditch him and find someone else. You're obviously not happy in this relationship and have probably tried to change alot about yourself, in vain. And now you expect him to change too i suppose, but thats not gonna happen because people dont change because those other people want them to. Ditch him and find a more tacful, open minded SLI. There are plenty.

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    let's not jump to any conclusions. I've had plenty of "the world is ending" moments w/ my SLI, and things have worked out.

    SLIs are practical, and they will shoot down ideas in a critical way, just like INTps or INTjs do. That doesn't mean they're bad people. They just might not be your cheerleader, but instead the person to ask when you need specific help.

    Tonight I said I wanted to hide all of our clutter because I'm having an event here tomorrow, and my SLI suddenly transformed the whole apmt. in a few hours without me having to nag at all.

    I think they just need specific things to do. Write out a list of things you want him to tell you when you are discussing your dreams, and have him keep that list handy. It sounds dumb, but you wouldn't expect him to assume you knew the technical details of something in depth, so don't expect him to know how you work. You do need to tell him how you work. And therapy could help also.

    I agree with "Just do your dreams" and then he will prob be more supportive than you think. The idea phase might not be their strong point, but the execution of things is.

    Give it some time and see how you feel. It's easy to throw in the towel, and sometimes it makes the most sense, and sometimes it doesn't. No right answers.

    And moving in together does cause a lot of stress and sometimes a power struggle for a while. That could be what's happening. Good luck!!
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    Thanks everyone for the replies.

    I've managed to talk to my sli and we have straightened a few things out. There were a few misunderstandings and as someone said I think it was a bit of a power struggle that was going on. With our just having moved in together and all. I thought I'd come back to give a few insights for other iee's and sli's who might be going through a similar situation. I think we could be the strangest pairing there is.


    I know this is socionics and different from mbti but I think the following links still apply. I have found them very useful in trying to figure myself and himself out. I'll quote bits from it to illustrate my insights.


    ENFP Personal Growth

    ISTP Personal Growth

    From the enfp page:
    10. When in Doubt, Ask Questions! Don't assume that the lack of feedback is the same thing as negative feedback. If you need feedback and don't have any, ask for it.
    I assumed he didn't care about anything I said because he is not good at giving feedback. I told him that alot of the time when I'm talking about something that is important to me he cuts me off and changes the subject and it seems like he doesn't care what I think. He said he is like that with everyone, that he just has a short attention span. He said I shouldn't take it personally.

    5. Smile at Criticism. Try to see disagreement and discord as an opportunity for growth, because that’s exactly what it is. Try not to become overly defensive towards criticism; try to hear it and judge it objectively.

    I was being overly defensive of his criticisms. Mostly they were to do with my terrible housekeeping skills. When I look at what he was saying objectively I can see that he was right. I did need a kick up the arse in that respect and I have to say it is alot less stressful living in a tidy house. Clean as you go, it's the only way. I actually made out a roster of chores for us to do. I never thought I'd give in and do something as lame as a roster but if it helps bring harmony to my home then call me a laymo, I don't care.

    And from the istp personal growth page:

    It is healthy to choose your paths and goals in life so that they coincide with what you find rewarding, and what you're really good at. However, it sometimes happens that we take this approach a bit too far and sacrifice an accurate and objective understanding of the world for a more narrow vision that is easier and comfortable for us to deal with. The ISTP affects this problem when they stop taking in information in a truly objective sense, and instead only take in information that supports their way of life.

    He was driving me crazy by not considering things from another point of view. Every time I would offer another viewpoint he shot me down immediately. He was just so bullheaded and thought that his way was the only way. I got him to read the istp personal growth page and he actually admitted this was true of him and that he feels he is disfunctional. Now that he has recognised this in himself I think we can make alot of progress together.

    So in conclusion I think what we were going through was actually just part of the dualisation process. I have a choice I can either be like this:

    May be what many would call a “sucker”; vulnerable to schemers and con artists.

    · May get themselves into dangerous situations because they’re too eager to push the envelope of their understanding, and not willing to apply judgement to anything.

    · May feel intense anger towards people who criticize them or try to control them. But will be unable to express the anger. Left unexpressed, the anger may fester and simmer and become destructive.

    · May blame their problems on other people, using logic and ration to defend themselves against the world.

    · May develop strong negative judgements that are difficult to unseed against people who they perceive have been oppressive to them.

    · May get involved with drugs, alcohol, or promiscuity, and generally seek mindless experiences and sensations.

    · May skip from relationship to relationship without the ability to commit.

    · May start projects but be unable to finish them.

    · May be unable to stick to a career or job for any length of time.



    Or I can be like this:


    · They will have the ability to follow through on projects they’ve begun.

    · They will be less gullible and malleable, and generally more able to discern between “good” and “bad”, rather than accepting everything without question.

    They may be highly artistic.

    · They will have the ability to focus and concentrate deeply on tasks. This enhanced ability to think and process information internally will make them more capable on many levels.

    · They will balance out their desire to meet new people and have new experiences with the desire to put their understanding to use in some way.

    · They will find more meaning and purpose in their lives.




    I can't see how I could have learned to be the latter without him showing me the light. Alot of other people in the past tried to teach me the things he has but I never listened. With my help he can become more like this:



    They have attractive and compelling personalities, and are well-liked and accepted by most people.
    They're usually quite intelligent, and can work through difficult problems.
    They understand the benefits of close relationships, and understand how to support and enhance these relationships.
    They can handle just about any task that they are presented with.



    Which means things can only get better from here on in.

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    Also I'd like to add that I was in a relationship with an istj for years and he did nearly destroy me. They have their similarities and this is why I was worried that maybe I was reading too much into this duality thing and that my sli would destroy me too. I was wrong to think that though. I think it's good that I did ask myself those questions though and to admit that I was not happy with the way things were going. The first step to change is to admit there is a problem. Us iee's tend to brush things under the carpet and fool ourselves into thinking everything is tickety boo. Maybe it was all just part of the growth process that I finally admitted to myself that my wants and needs are just as important as everyone elses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twizzlestix View Post
    That's MBTI, that's not socionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by twizzlestix View Post
    Also I'd like to add that I was in a relationship with an istj for years and he did nearly destroy me. They have their similarities and this is why I was worried that maybe I was reading too much into this duality thing and that my sli would destroy me too.
    This may be relations of conflict. Conflictor and dual can look alike on surface to an untrained eye. Your conflictor would be constantly hitting your PoLR. Would explain why you say he nearly destroyed you.

    If you're IEE (Ne-Fi) then in MBTI your dual is the ISTJ (Si-Te) not the ISTP (Ti-Se).

    And yes thinker do develop their feeling side but usually it happens at later age. Those who have feeling as mobilizing/tertairy function will start developing empathy around 20-30 y.o. Those who have it as inferior function - around 35ish and beyond. Here is a story about ISTJ developing his feeling side: http://personalitycafe.com/articles/...-real-boy.html

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by twizzlestix View Post
    I am 100% sure that I am IEE and he is SLI.
    There are no 100%s.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    yeah, this is an old thread, and I dont think twizzlestix comes here anymore, but siuntal i'm glad you commented on those "personal growth" essays--I was going to say the same exact thing.

    From the interactions I had with twizzlestix on here, she did not seem IEE at all to me, but some sort of Fe-dominant--either ESE or EIE.

    The one thing I want to correct about your post is MBTI does not have a concept like duality. And simply converting j/p from MBTI type to get socionics type can be a huge mistake (was for me).
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    If you want a non-socionics reason, perhaps you aren't communicating well enough for him to naturally understand you... BUT if you try to communicate better because of him, you're changing yourself for the sake of a relationship... which is always a bad thing.
    Just would like to quote myself on this from 3 months ago, and say my perspective has changed/grown.

    Relationships, in a very selfish way, outside of enjoying the relationship for itself, are always a great way to help YOU improve as a person, in realizing what you can improve upon, need to do better, etc.

    Communication is important. Just one example.

    If two individuals are both at somewhat unhealthy levels, perhaps cutting off a relationship can be a good thing. That doesn't mean though, with time out and lots of focus on one's self, that getting back together in the future can't be a good thing.

    And I mean 'unhealthy' more specifically in not knowing what you want out of life. As my pastor always says, "unhappiness is not knowing what you want, and killing yourself to get it."

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    I like you, Mountain Dew.

    But I don't like Mountain Dew.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I like you, Mountain Dew.

    But I don't like Mountain Dew.
    Same, it's a horrible drink.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

  39. #39
    Creepy-Snaps

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I like you, Mountain Dew.


    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    But I don't like Mountain Dew.
    That's ok.

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    Yeah, Moutain Dew the drink is disgusting. Sorry, MD.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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