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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Default Friendship

    One of the first areas in which I noticed that I was different from most other people was my expectations in friendships. I had to redefine what friendship meant because I was completely disillusioned from what society had instilled in me. What I took to be "friendship" was the free exchange of insults, opinions, and random BS'ing.That greatly contrasted with what I valued and what I could tolerate. This leads me to the point of this thread:

    Are valuers friends so much as there is stimulation between them? What happens when that stimulation is absent? Do valuers have long distance and lifetime friends? When I use the word "friends", I mean whatever you consider to be a true friend.

    I was thinking of a scenario in which two groups of people make jokes. In Group , it has been pre-established that friends should not speak out against each other without restrictions because they are friends. Words are filtered before they are said. In Group , it has been established that friends can say whatever they what and not worry because they are friends. It seems in Group friendship comes first, humor second. While in Group , friendship comes second, humor first.

    Could it be said that valuers are objects or sources of stimulation, while valuers subjects or sources of bonds? If so then should we expect valuing friends to stay around in the long term, and should we expect valuing friends to be active in daily interaction?

  2. #2
    Creepy-male

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    Lol, ouch.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Are valuers friends so much as there is stimulation between them? What happens when that stimulation is absent? Do valuers have long distance and lifetime friends? When I use the word "friends", I mean whatever you consider to be a true friend.
    Friends are friends based on what connection is there. There can be superficial acquaintances who you jostle or joke around with, without being particularly close to, however.

    "Friends" is not contingent on there being some sort of emotional stimulation. People I would call my friends are typically people I like, either because of going through stuff together, having supported me, or just because I think they're awesome.

    I typically tend toward long-distance friends, since I do most of my socialising online, as that's easier for me to cope with than doing so IRL (where I can really only stomach one or two other people). I guess I don't have many life-long friends in terms of people I talk to regularly, but once someone is a "friend", so they stay, even if we don't necessarily keep in touch. (I'm often reliant on other people doing this, or I just kind of drop off the planet.)

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    I was thinking of a scenario in which two groups of people make jokes. In Group , it has been pre-established that friends should not speak out against each other without restrictions because they are friends. Words are filtered before they are said. In Group , it has been established that friends can say whatever they what and not worry because they are friends. It seems in Group friendship comes first, humor second. While in Group , friendship comes second, humor first.
    You make it sound like Group devalues the relationship in favour of the humour. I don't believe this is so. As a ego, the relationship is still important, it's just understood that you can get away with more stuff due to the nature of the relationship.

    For example, I wouldn't make raunchy jokes with someone manning the cash register at a Burger King, but I would do so rather frequently with any of my ILE friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Could it be said that valuers are objects or sources of stimulation, while valuers subjects or sources of bonds? If so then should we expect valuing friends to stay around in the long term, and should we expect valuing friends to be active in daily interaction?
    It could be, but that paints valuers in a really negative light, and in a very positive one.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    I may be portraying friendship in a negative light, but I'm trying to understand that point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    Lol, ouch.



    Friends are friends based on what connection is there. There can be superficial acquaintances who you jostle or joke around with, without being particularly close to, however.
    But how exactly do types view friends differently than types? It can't be purely objectivity vs subjectivity because then you could do all sorts of things to and they'd be indifferent.

    "Friends" is not contingent on there being some sort of emotional stimulation. People I would call my friends are typically people I like, either because of going through stuff together, having supported me, or just because I think they're awesome.
    How exactly does external ethics fit in with this? Do you base your friendship on what you can possibly do with these friends or what attributes they possess?



    You make it sound like Group devalues the relationship in favour of the humour. I don't believe this is so. As a ego, the relationship is still important, it's just understood that you can get away with more stuff due to the nature of the relationship.

    For example, I wouldn't make raunchy jokes with someone manning the cash register at a Burger King, but I would do so rather frequently with any of my ILE friends.
    "Getting away", obviously there is some difference in what is usually presented. Friends "get away" with jokes aimed at each other, but not anyone else. How is that friendship? It seems like the opposite to me.

    It could be, but that paints valuers in a really negative light, and in a very positive one.
    Well, do you see people as objects that provide access to other things or stimulation? I see friends as people with shared experiences that affect me in a positive way and so I choose to call them friends. Nothing else is required of them, but acknowledgement of the bond.

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    every type can have any type of friendship, imo.

    one of my best friends was a woman I met on the internet (and have since met her family and we try to get together at least once per year) over 12 years ago! We still email several times per week, sometimes more often than that. She's LII.

    But there are also women who were in my wedding with whom I'm no longer in touch (both ESI). And there are a range of friends in between those extremes. Every friendship has a different flavor and there are different things that bring you together and keep you connected.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    I know every type can have different friendships, as I can tell the differences between the ones I have/had. My focus is on the preferred friendship, it would give more insight into how manifests.

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    I might chime in more later, but I think it's also worth considering the "friend" behavior from the perspective of conscious/unconscious /. (essentially Statics vs. Dynamics)

    However, I will add my view that valuing/devaluing of functions has more to do with what one takes for granted compared to what one keeps on the forefront. (especially for the Ego vs. Id functions) It certainly could be said that valuers communicate in a free environment because they take the nature of the relationship, which we shall tentatively link to , for granted. It could also be said, conversely, that valuers focus on the relationship and take the emotional exchange for granted. Just something to mull over.

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    Friendship is friendship... it's a universal concept among most human beings.

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    great thread topic.

    the difference between Fe and Fi based friendships is on emphasis. with Fe, there's not as much emphasis on reciprocity, whereas with Fi, there's tons. say an Fi valuer gives me a small gift. i appreciate the gift but in another way i don't really since it puts expectation on me to come up with one in return or that i remember birthdays and such. with Fi it's always more like this tennis match that's going, i hit the ball you return i hit it back. Fi valuing dynamics want the Fi to ground them.

    with Fe, it's more about are you in touch with where people are at right now emotionally. are people's emotional states noticed, adjusted, played with. it feels more random and energizing if that makes any sense, since people's emotions change all the time and Fe valuers kind of want their emotional state to have ups and downs and to change. there's more this feeling that anything could happen at the next moment. Fe valuing statics want the Fe to release them.

    FWIW

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    I can't speak on behalf of -valuers everywhere, but I'll describe my own views of friendship. I value and use tons of .

    My best friend and I met when very young. She's another IEI. We had lots of crazy adventures, everything was very intense. She's like a sister to me, we've been friends "forever" and will remain so.

    I have a lot of long-term friends. I don't expect or demand long-term from people, but it often goes that way. I'd say this is because we initially made very deep connections that stand the test of time, survive external life changes.

    My friendship history is punctuated by moments when time seems to stop. The friend and I both seem to know how the other person is perceiving reality. We are conscious of each other, of the moment, of affection and understanding. We are grateful to see and be seen, to be accepted and loved for who we really are. Just that feeling of being "home" in the other's presence.

    So do and have some huge impact on how one views, cultivates, and maintains friendships? I would only say that even if I seem changeable on the surface, my love and loyalty for my "real" friends is fixed. They can count on me.

    Same with less close, less "important" friends, really. They can expect me to be consistently inconsistent, or inconsistently consistent, whatever. Whatever we shared, I can find it again at any given moment.

    If you and I were friends 15 years ago, chances are if we meet again I will find that exact same connection with you. I'm good at that, even if you aren't--let's say I grasped something about you, something essential, and formed an inner image of that essence, and I reflected it to you in the past, and that felt like friendship. From then on, your image lives in me, and when we meet again, I will easily reflect that same (constant yet evolving) image to you.

    Lastly, the word "stimulation" keeps coming up, and that just doesn't find a place in me. I do like it when a friend is intellectually stimulating, for example, but it's not the end-all be-all. And I don't NEED others to emotionally stimulate me, as I have plenty of emotion all on my own. Stimulating adventures are cool, fun, but again, not the ultimate point of friendship for me. Understanding, connection, not stimulation.
    Last edited by golden; 11-24-2010 at 03:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    great thread topic.

    the difference between Fe and Fi based friendships is on emphasis. with Fe, there's not as much emphasis on reciprocity, whereas with Fi, there's tons. say an Fi valuer gives me a small gift. i appreciate the gift but in another way i don't really since it puts expectation on me to come up with one in return or that i remember birthdays and such. with Fi it's always more like this tennis match that's going, i hit the ball you return i hit it back. Fi valuing dynamics want the Fi to ground them.

    with Fe, it's more about are you in touch with where people are at right now emotionally. are people's emotional states noticed, adjusted, played with. it feels more random and energizing if that makes any sense, since people's emotions change all the time and Fe valuers kind of want their emotional state to have ups and downs and to change. there's more this feeling that anything could happen at the next moment. Fe valuing statics want the Fe to release them.

    FWIW
    Interesting, thanks, seems valid. You've described a point of disconnection I feel with certain people, whom I see as defining friendship as a series of obligatory gestures. I'm aware of such gestures, but I don't keep score, and I run into trouble with people who don't LIKE having their emotional states pointed out and discussed.

    And if someone is sort of oblivious to my emotional needs but always, er, sends me a birthday card or the like, I'm a little like WTF. I mean, nice gesture, I appreciate the thought, but ... something is usually missing for me in that case. I don't care if someone remembers my birthday. I do care if when I talk to them we connect strongly and in a way that to me seems "real"--which probably comes down to what you described re. being attuned to another person's current and shifting emotional landscape.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    I can't speak on behalf of -valuers everywhere, but I'll describe my own views of friendship. I value and use tons of .

    My best friend and I met when very young. She's another IEI. We had lots of crazy adventures, everything was very intense. She's like a sister to me, we've been friends "forever" and will remain so.

    I have a lot of long-term friends. I don't expect or demand long-term from people, but it often goes that way. I'd say this is because we initially made very deep connections that stand the test of time, survive external life changes.

    My friendship history is punctuated by moments when time seems to stop. The friend and I both seem to know how the other person is perceiving reality. We are conscious of each other, of the moment, of affection and understanding. We are grateful to see and be seen, to be accepted and loved for who we really are. Just that feeling of being "home" in the other's presence.

    So do and have some huge impact on how one views, cultivates, and maintains friendships? I would only say that even if I seem changeable on the surface, my love and loyalty for my "real" friends is fixed. They can count on me.

    Same with less close, less "important" friends, really. They can expect me to be consistently inconsistent, or inconsistently consistent, whatever. Whatever we shared, I can find it again at any given moment.

    If you and I were friends 15 years ago, chances are if we meet again I will find that exact same connection with you. I'm good at that, even if you aren't--let's say I grasped something about you, something essential, and formed an inner image of that essence, and I reflected it to you in the past, and that felt like friendship. From then on, your image lives in me, and when we meet again, I will easily reflect that same (constant yet evolving) image to you.

    Lastly, the word "stimulation" keeps coming up, and that just doesn't find a place in me. I do like it when a friend is intellectually stimulating, for example, but it's not the end-all be-all. And I don't NEED others to emotionally stimulate me, as I have plenty of emotion all on my own. Stimulating adventures are cool, fun, but again, not the ultimate point of friendship for me. Understanding, connection, not stimulation.
    A lot of this you mixed with , I bolded the parts. keeps the image of friends immortilzed but the Feeling function acts on that in terms of or . I experience the same things. I love that feeling of understanding and immersion in the presence of a treasured friend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    the difference between Fe and Fi based friendships is on emphasis. with Fe, there's not as much emphasis on reciprocity, whereas with Fi, there's tons. say an Fi valuer gives me a small gift. i appreciate the gift but in another way i don't really since it puts expectation on me to come up with one in return or that i remember birthdays and such. with Fi it's always more like this tennis match that's going, i hit the ball you return i hit it back. Fi valuing dynamics want the Fi to ground them.
    FWIW I never really go this Fi = supposed debt/reciprocity etc. thing. Seems like something easy to identify with, not just by alphas/betas, projected onto devalued elements. Or maybe I'm not Fi-valuing after all.

    A lot of this you mixed with , I bolded the parts. keeps the image of friends immortilzed but the Feeling function acts on that in terms of or . I experience the same things. I love that feeling of understanding and immersion in the presence of a treasured friend.
    Don't know if it's Ni, but I also relate to the latter emphasized part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    FWIW I never really go this Fi = supposed debt/reciprocity etc. thing. Seems like something easy to identify with, not just by alphas/betas, projected onto devalued elements. Or maybe I'm not Fi-valuing after all.
    maybe it's delta Fi. since the people am thinking of all are deltas. being that i don't typically socialize with gammas. no offense. :wink:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    I don't care if someone remembers my birthday. I do care if when I talk to them we connect strongly and in a way that to me seems "real"--which probably comes down to what you described re. being attuned to another person's current and shifting emotional landscape.
    exactly. my INFj aunt always always sends me a birthday card. but that's the extent of our interaction. Literally. She cares about me because I'm in the family but we have zero connection other than that. It's weird. I know she sends cards to everyone though. It's just her thing. But it always feels a bit fake. I also got a card from another INFj for my birthday with whom I'm only tangential friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatthewZ View Post
    However, I will add my view that valuing/devaluing of functions has more to do with what one takes for granted compared to what one keeps on the forefront. (especially for the Ego vs. Id functions) It certainly could be said that valuers communicate in a free environment because they take the nature of the relationship, which we shall tentatively link to , for granted. It could also be said, conversely, that valuers focus on the relationship and take the emotional exchange for granted. Just something to mull over.
    ^^^^ this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Friendship is friendship... it's a universal concept among most human beings.
    ^^^^ and this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    maybe it's delta Fi. since the people am thinking of all are deltas. being that i don't typically socialize with gammas. no offense. :wink:
    or maybe you have a poor perception of how your polr function works.

    this thread is irritating.

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    I hate feeling obligated to give gifts in return, especially if they are randomly given to me.

    I've actually gotten random gifts from Fe-valuers more than anything, and they get pissed off if I don't do the same in return. My sister for instance, ENFj, would absolutely insist she "take me to lunch" when I was about 14 and without a job. She'd insist on paying, and then become furious when I didn't offer to take her to lunch and pay for it, with my non-existant money.

    I have an INFj aunt who has always sent cards for almost every occassion and gifts as well, and I never got her more than a small Xmas present, and she continues doing it without complaint, which leads me to believe she ENJOYS being giving, without caring what she gets in return.

    Just my personal experience, but I'm big on Fi obviously, and I despise feeling obligated.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    this thread is irritating.
    Care to explain?


    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity
    Friendship is friendship... it's a universal concept among most human beings.
    Not only is that not the aim of this thread, but even though the idea of having friends is universal, exact expectations are not. It is in these differences that I hope to gain insight about the Feeling functions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Care to explain?
    it wasn't about the op, just the direction the thread has taken.

    almost everybody wants strong and genuine relationships.

    almost nobody strives for relationships centered around a dance of reciprocity and/or fun and emotional stimulation with no real core.

    this is not type related.

    as for what IS type-related, sorry, idk. matthewz's response would be the best answer i can conceive of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    I've actually gotten random gifts from Fe-valuers more than anything, and they get pissed off if I don't do the same in return. My sister for instance, ENFj, would absolutely insist she "take me to lunch" when I was about 14 and without a job. She'd insist on paying, and then become furious when I didn't offer to take her to lunch and pay for it, with my non-existant money.

    I have an INFj aunt who has always sent cards for almost every occassion and gifts as well, and I never got her more than a small Xmas present, and she continues doing it without complaint, which leads me to believe she ENJOYS being giving, without caring what she gets in return.
    What a contrast.

    I don't think either of these attitudes is type related, but I'm glad you had an example like that, for contrast. Too often someone's bitching about their unvalued elements gets others saying "oh I felt the same so many times! I think it's those evil [insert whatever element was bashed] valuers! socionics explains it all!". I mean, I sure do vent about Fe here sometimes, but if I'm saying how fake and meaningless it often is and someone relates, it's only fair to point out that the other side tends to perceive it similarly, if it's even type related. And doing things expecting reciprocation or not, especially when it's unreasonable like you describe, seems to fall into the latter category.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    I have an INFj aunt who has always sent cards for almost every occassion and gifts as well, and I never got her more than a small Xmas present, and she continues doing it without complaint, which leads me to believe she ENJOYS being giving, without caring what she gets in return.
    oh yes absolutely. Neither of the women who send me cards regularly do so with the hopes of receiving them. They're completely UNdemanding in that regard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post

    or maybe you have a poor perception of how your polr function works.

    this thread is irritating.
    wow what's with the hostility. i wasn't making any kind of person attack why are you.

    the thread isn't irritating but differences in perception can be for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    wow what's with the hostility. i wasn't making any kind of person attack why are you.

    the thread isn't irritating but differences in perception can be for sure.
    i guess i get frustrated with what i perceive as a lack of interest in really understanding. like with Se, my view of it is one-dimensional and i probably attribute negative aspects to it that it doesn't really possess. so when people like ananke or other Se quadra types describe their experience of Se i read carefully and try to assimilate it into my understanding. i feel like it would be presumptuous of me to think that my observations of Se are more comprehensive and accurate than others' first-hand experience. and maybe i'm wrong, but that's how i perceive you dealing with Fi.

    i do think that the perception of those who devalue an element can be helpful, but i also think it can be misleading if it gets interpreted as accurately descriptive.

    that all said, i blew my emotional reaction out of proportion yesterday and my attitude was uncalled for. i'm sorry for being a shithead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    i do think that the perception of those who devalue an element can be helpful, but i also think it can be misleading if it gets interpreted as accurately descriptive.
    I would also add that most of "descriptions" of devalued elements aren't so much descriptions as guesses as to what a person with those values must be thinking to be acting as they are, which are usually created in terms of the guesser's own preferred information, resulting in those explanations more often than not making little to no sense, while actual attempts at conveying one's perception of them would be much more useful. It even happens with other types, even sharing some of all of your values, but it's usually the case with devalued elements.

    Another possible pitfall, which is somehow less obvious here but a plague on some other forums (MBTI ones) is assuming that all of one's thought processes are thanks to ego functions, therefore a person with different ones must lack them. Basically the theme is "I'm like this, so X-valuers can't be" or "they're like this, therefore I'm free of it". More often than not, it's self-flattery based on either things common to most people or merely not type related. And it's not really extreme cases I'm worried about (let's say, NTs calling NFs "pseudointellectual" - seen this one before), since those are obviously ridiculous, it's the subtle use of it such as assigning some sort of "depth" to one's ego functions. From what I've seen, most people tend to view the information related to devalued aspects as "shallow" in some way - this is most prominent in Fi vs Fe debate, but also when contrasting other elements - which suggests it's not an element's property, but merely the viewer's superficial understanding of it.

    Less obvious cases are some Beta NFs saying Gamma Ni is "grounded" by Te, implying it's not quite Ni, or some Alpha NTs accusing others of bias but claiming to be epitomes of objectivity, or some Ne-egos more or less subtly suggesting Se is close-mindedness, or Fi calling Ti rigid while Ti keeps claiming Fi is the judgmental one. All of those examples are about flattering oneself by being supposedly free from the respective faults, special. Venting is one thing and understandable as this forum has a significant social aspect, but it's counterproductive to present it as socionics argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Less obvious cases are some Beta NFs saying Gamma Ni is "grounded" by Te, implying it's not quite Ni, or some Alpha NTs accusing others of bias but claiming to be epitomes of objectivity, or some Ne-egos more or less subtly suggesting Se is close-mindedness, or Fi calling Ti rigid while Ti keeps claiming Fi is the judgmental one. All of those examples are about flattering oneself by being supposedly free from the respective faults, special. Venting is one thing and understandable as this forum has a significant social aspect, but it's counterproductive to present it as socionics argument.
    thank god that Si is so simple to understand. ie, eating good food and being comfortable.

    ^me being a jerk, don't explode at me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat View Post
    thank god that Si is so simple to understand. ie, eating good food and being comfortable.

    ^me being a jerk, don't explode at me.
    Yeah, examples tend to be, you know, examples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    which leads me to believe she ENJOYS being giving, without caring what she gets in return.
    Sounds like a good sex partner

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    A lot of this you mixed with , I bolded the parts. keeps the image of friends immortilzed but the Feeling function acts on that in terms of or . I experience the same things. I love that feeling of understanding and immersion in the presence of a treasured friend.
    Sure, I mixed them, but that's unavoidable, because for me they are inescapably mixed. This is a way I "use" Fe, and others use it differently, I suppose. Does anyone use it purely?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    I've actually gotten random gifts from Fe-valuers more than anything, and they get pissed off if I don't do the same in return. My sister for instance, ENFj, would absolutely insist she "take me to lunch" when I was about 14 and without a job. She'd insist on paying, and then become furious when I didn't offer to take her to lunch and pay for it, with my non-existant money.
    Interesting. I love to give random gifts but couldn't care less about reciprocation. Not the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    i guess i get frustrated with what i perceive as a lack of interest in really understanding. like with Se, my view of it is one-dimensional and i probably attribute negative aspects to it that it doesn't really possess. so when people like ananke or other Se quadra types describe their experience of Se i read carefully and try to assimilate it into my understanding. i feel like it would be presumptuous of me to think that my observations of Se are more comprehensive and accurate than others' first-hand experience. and maybe i'm wrong, but that's how i perceive you dealing with Fi.

    i do think that the perception of those who devalue an element can be helpful, but i also think it can be misleading if it gets interpreted as accurately descriptive.

    that all said, i blew my emotional reaction out of proportion yesterday and my attitude was uncalled for. i'm sorry for being a shithead.
    apology accepted, no problem really, it's easy to get caught up here, i know i have.

    well i guess it could be a lack of interest....or a lack of ability. when you can't understand something i spose it's easier to just devalue it or have a lack of interest in it. the root of this is ability though not willingness.

    i really do see more of a tennis match between Fi valuing types (delta esp) with regard to friendship than i do with Fe valuing types. this does not imply that all there is to Fi...it's just one thing that i notice. i don't know where you're getting that i'm trying to pass myself off as understanding Fi in all its intricacies....anything i wrote was not offered as a comprehensive explanation of Fi, just a couple of examples were given.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat View Post
    thank god that Si is so simple to understand. ie, eating good food and being comfortable.

    ^me being a jerk, don't explode at me.
    So ... forgive me, but what IS Si to someone who values it? I know it exists, and I do see it manifested in things like food and physical comfort. But I know it's surely profound to the person who values it.

    Trotting out my usual example, the ex. He would come home from work to me and the kid. He entered the house and, I'm supposing, needed what we might call Si and Fi, things I couldn't offer too much of.

    What he found was rather different and unhelpful to him. Me and the child dancing around like mad to Sonic Youth? Bouncing up to him to explosively say goofy hellos? Evidence that we'd been collecting strange facts on the Solar System, and then the child had drawn a bunch of pictures of geometric Martians and left a mess behind, which we might eventually clean up? An afterthought-ish dinner consisting of a mediocre pizza and a salad?

    It wasn't the music/dancing/space/art/mess thing in itself, nor the food in itself. It was that somehow, the attitude around it didn't fit with his needs. The whole mood coming from him was like, "What have they been doing all afternoon? This looks crazy and intense."

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    My expectations on frienships are rather indirect. I dont expect anything material or real from friends. I dont remember when my best friends congratulated me on my birthday, neither I care about such things. Nor do I expect them to give me gifts or whatnot. My expectations from friends are more or less simple, that after not seeing each other for half a year we somehow are still great friends who can talk and share stories or worries as if nothing really changed and there was no half year gap. Its one example but it illustrates what I expect from friendship, actually it makes me feel uncomfortable even saying "expecting", maybe wanting is a better term. And such is my relationship with my friends. If things like expectations has anything to do with Fi Im probably not Fi valuing.

    I am sometimes sad that Im usualy the only one that gets my friends together, that Im always the one reaching out for them, but on the other hand I was always willing to do things like that so maybe its a natural expectation from them that I will be busy with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    So ... forgive me, but what IS Si to someone who values it? I know it exists, and I do see it manifested in things like food and physical comfort. But I know it's surely profound to the person who values it.

    Trotting out my usual example, the ex. He would come home from work to me and the kid. He entered the house and, I'm supposing, needed what we might call Si and Fi, things I couldn't offer too much of.

    What he found was rather different and unhelpful to him. Me and the child dancing around like mad to Sonic Youth? Bouncing up to him to explosively say goofy hellos? Evidence that we'd been collecting strange facts on the Solar System, and then the child had drawn a bunch of pictures of geometric Martians and left a mess behind, which we might eventually clean up? An afterthought-ish dinner consisting of a mediocre pizza and a salad?

    It wasn't the music/dancing/space/art/mess thing in itself, nor the food in itself. It was that somehow, the attitude around it didn't fit with his needs. The whole mood coming from him was like, "What have they been doing all afternoon? This looks crazy and intense."
    oh gosh this sounds all too familiar.

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    Si is explicit dynamics of fields. It deals with directly perceivable processes, and this includes many of the physical ones, such as occuring in the body or in an immediate environment. Si is homeostasis, balance, harmony, closely observed dynamic system. It's somehow similar to Ni, but it's weak emergence as opposed to strong emergence of Ni. The whole trick about Si being related to caregiving, health or relaxation lies in this difference - in weak emergence, all properties are traceable to interactions of components, and this is exactly what's needed to deal with this information. Si doesn't make a vague shady correlation based on few clues; it is observation rich in detail, capable of picking up the exact causation, knowing what it is that accounts for the end effect. Si-egos, thanks to this focus on tracing processes, are very much in sync with their own bodies, can usually tell what it is that made them feel bad or good and tweak and control those factors. It isn't really about "objective" health as we understand it, but a subjective feel of it. Si-egos can, just like anyone else, act contrary to what's good for their health, if they choose to overindulge in immediately rewarding pleasures. Si with Fe is more attuned to explicit effects of implicit actions, caters mostly to emotional well-being, while Si with Te will focus on explicit results of explicit factors, such as eating or exercising. Again, all of this, while being an example of use of Si, isn't Si. It's the type of information which corresponds to Si aspect. Tangible processes are to be found elsewhere, as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    oh gosh this sounds all too familiar.
    Heh. But not. As in, boo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Si is explicit dynamics of fields. It deals with directly perceivable processes, and this includes many of the physical ones, such as occuring in the body or in an immediate environment. Si is homeostasis, balance, harmony, closely observed dynamic system. It's somehow similar to Ni, but it's weak emergence as opposed to strong emergence of Ni. The whole trick about Si being related to caregiving, health or relaxation lies in this difference - in weak emergence, all properties are traceable to interactions of components, and this is exactly what's needed to deal with this information. Si doesn't make a vague shady correlation based on few clues; it is observation rich in detail, capable of picking up the exact causation, knowing what it is that accounts for the end effect. Si-egos, thanks to this focus on tracing processes, are very much in sync with their own bodies, can usually tell what it is that made them feel bad or good and tweak and control those factors. It isn't really about "objective" health as we understand it, but a subjective feel of it. Si-egos can, just like anyone else, act contrary to what's good for their health, if they choose to overindulge in immediately rewarding pleasures. Si with Fe is more attuned to explicit effects of implicit actions, caters mostly to emotional well-being, while Si with Te will focus on explicit results of explicit factors, such as eating or exercising. Again, all of this, while being an example of use of Si, isn't Si. It's the type of information which corresponds to Si aspect. Tangible processes are to be found elsewhere, as well.
    Wah! I'll come back and read this a dozen more times and file it away.

    So in the example of my woe-begone former family unit, what do you think would have made an Fi- and Si-valuing person come home and feel gratified and pleased?

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    Thanks Arthur said it best. Devaluing doesn't quite imply devaluing the quality of friendships, we're just looser about what we do with friends. Crass, offensive jokes and the like are tolerated and even appreciated -- it's just good fun among friends.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Wah! I'll come back and read this a dozen more times and file it away.
    Side off-topic question: do you have the same difficulties I have to understand Si?

    Extended off-topic question: do you guys have one function in particular in the 8 which you find harder to understand fully? (in my case it's the weakest and most devalued so no surprise, but what about you?)

    Aiss, Blaze: Interesting posts, as usual.

    Nice thread, keep rolling!
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    So ... forgive me, but what IS Si to someone who values it? I know it exists, and I do see it manifested in things like food and physical comfort. But I know it's surely profound to the person who values it.

    Trotting out my usual example, the ex. He would come home from work to me and the kid. He entered the house and, I'm supposing, needed what we might call Si and Fi, things I couldn't offer too much of.

    What he found was rather different and unhelpful to him. Me and the child dancing around like mad to Sonic Youth? Bouncing up to him to explosively say goofy hellos? Evidence that we'd been collecting strange facts on the Solar System, and then the child had drawn a bunch of pictures of geometric Martians and left a mess behind, which we might eventually clean up? An afterthought-ish dinner consisting of a mediocre pizza and a salad?

    It wasn't the music/dancing/space/art/mess thing in itself, nor the food in itself. It was that somehow, the attitude around it didn't fit with his needs. The whole mood coming from him was like, "What have they been doing all afternoon? This looks crazy and intense."
    you sound like a cool mom. i don't think any of that sounds contrary to Si and Fi necessarily. hmm...i think Fi and Si are both very personal to whoever is using them, so how it manifests is going to vary a lot (as with any function, i guess). your ex could have been bothered by what he confronted when he got home, but it would have been highly personalized and not every Si person would be bothered by the same stimuli. the way he reacted to it could be more specific to type, maybe.

    as for my SLI boyfriend and i, i'm often the one stressing out about making something nutritionally appropriate for dinner while he's all like, "just throw a couple hot dogs in the microwave, who cares?" maybe irrationality versus rationality? but not Si related imo.

    it sounds like your ex was pretty traditional and conservative, which seems to get associated with delta a lot. maybe because of delta's place in the quadra system as maintainers of already existing systems or something, not sure. but irl i don't see these sorts of life outlooks being attributable to type.

    anyway, i'm not sure what i could say in terms of what kind of environment an Fi and Si valuing person would appreciate more because i wasn't at all horrified by what you described, haha. maybe aiss might have a good response, she usually does.

    EDIT: i didn't notice your question before about what Si is to someone who values it. this is an older post, but has stuck in my head as the description i've read that has most closely matched my own experience (7th post, written by steve).

    http://forum.socionix.com/topic/792-...ni-perception/

    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    Extended off-topic question: do you guys have one function in particular in the 8 which you find harder to understand fully? (in my case it's the weakest and most devalued so no surprise, but what about you?)
    for me, probably Ni and Se. my demonstrative and polr.
    Last edited by lump; 11-26-2010 at 11:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton2 View Post
    I make crass and offensive jokes all the time with people I know. IME Alphas/Betas (unless they know me really well) are the ones who typically get butthurt and cry foul when I do this. I don't think it's the being crass/offensive in and of itself that elicits this reaction though, but more a matter of delivery—they often can't tell when I'm kidding vs. being serious, whereas valuers usually can without me having to explain myself.
    I've had similar experiences with this. I'm kinda prone to making racist jokes around all the Alphas here, and it feels like they sometimes can't tell when I'm joking. Even when I make regular jokes they take what I say too seriously. A lot of it does have to do with the delivery of it I guess, because my inflections don't really change when I deliver the joke.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    It's pretty cool

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    I would think that any decent and reasonable person would find crass and offensive jokes offensive.

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